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View Full Version : Irish handgun ban: It isn't paranoia if they're out to get you


7x57
07-29-2009, 9:06 AM
You know, sometimes I worry about stepping over the line of attributing to malice what can be explained by stupidity w.r.t. stupid gun control laws. But usually about that time some anti-gunner lets the cat out of the bag by admitting that they know it isn't about safety, it's about setting up the next anti-gun measure. That's more or less what we seem to have here (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/ahern-signs-new-gun-control-act-into-law-419908.html) (but see below about taking out of context):


Ahern signs new gun control act into law
24/07/2009

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has signed new gun control legislation into law.

The act bans handguns in Ireland and also introduces a requirement for referees, background medical checks and standards for the safe keeping of guns in the home for all firearms licence applicants.

It also makes it an offence to brandish a realistic imitation firearm in public.

Mr Ahern says the legislation is designed to halt the emergence of a gun culture in Ireland.


Can't have people learning to value being armed more than, say, playing tennis, now can we, or even passing it on to their children?

I suppose I should add that Ahern may have intended a different meaning to "gun culture"; presumably he means the one we have in gang and drug culture. However, I don't feel too bad about that--I imagine he would do exactly what our anti-gunners do and treat us exactly the same. Certainly that's the effect of the law, since Irish drug dealers aren't likely to be shy about breaking one more law any more than ours are. So whichever he intended, the meaning is the same old tired one: "stop committing crimes, or I'll flog this innocent citizen over here even harder until you stop!"

ETA: Irish handbuns appear to be safe, so I've edited the title to reflect that only handgun bans are contemplated. That should reassure .454 that his baked goods from the Emerald Isle are not threatened.

7x57

Fissssh
07-29-2009, 9:27 AM
Dermot Ahern Announces Introduction of Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009
Act to introduce tough Gun Control Regime
Mr. Dermot Ahern, T.D., Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has announced the signing into law of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009.

Minister Ahern said: "This Act is about halting the emergence of a gun-culture in Ireland. Experience in other countries shows us that any relaxation of controls on gun ownership or registration very quickly results in dramatic growth in firearms with many longer term negative downstream consequences. I will not allow that happen on my watch."

The Act introduces the most far-reaching gun control measures since the foundation of the state including:
· A ban on handguns.
· A ban on ‘practical shooting’ (a self styled extreme shooting activity).
· Ministerial powers to prohibit particular firearms or categories of firearms in a precise manner.
· A requirement for referees, background medical checks and standards for the safe keeping of guns in the home for all firearms licence applicants;
· Radically tightened licensing procedures for the renewal of currently licensed guns;
· New regulations governing target shooting Clubs and Ranges.
· Those involved in target shooting (rifle and pistol) will be subject to a more rigorous authorisation procedure by the Garda Commissioner;
· A new three year licence with outsourced fee collection and licence production resulting in greater efficiency and improved customer service at garda station level;
· New guidelines on licensing matters, published by the Garda Commissioner, which will be available to the public.

Minister Ahern continued: "The modernisation of the licensing system is a big step forward and will result in a better system all round, with benefits accruing at many levels. This Act gives the Garda Commissioner the additional powers he needs to address matters relating to firearms licensing."


To deal with the issue of ‘realistic imitation firearms‘, the Act introduces a range of measures including restrictions on their import, sale and use. Three of these measures will be introduced:

· it will be an offence to brandish a realistic imitation firearm in public;
· Garda Superintendents will have the power to authorise ‘airsoft’ venues; and
· the establishment of a register of dealers.

Minister Ahern concluded: "The vast majority of licensed firearms holders have nothing to fear from the bringing into force of these provisions of the Act. Instead, the Act provides for a modern, comprehensive licensing regime, while at the same time outlawing unacceptable practices."

On the issue of knife crime, the Act gives the Gardaí increased powers of search and also introduces scope for increased penalties and prosecution on indictment.

The Act also contains a number of other elements including amendments to the European Arrest Warrant Act of 2003, which are being proposed with a view to improving the operation of the European Arrest Warrant system in light of the experience of its operation since 2003.

The Act also contains a number of minor technical changes to other statutes including the Bail Acts and the Theft and Fraud Offences Act 2001 and the Criminal Justice Act 1984.

The full text of the Act is available on the Oireachtas website www.oireachtas.ie



24 July 2009

7x57
07-29-2009, 9:34 AM
Thanks for that, I did some Googling myself and indeed he did mean "gun culture" precisely the way I use it--the positive Anglo-American one that lays the duty of upholding the law on each citizen, not the "state of nature" gangland one. I didn't find anything as clear and explicit as that, however.

Unfortunately there's little we can do to help out--and it *is* unfortunate, because the anti-gunners already act internationally.

7x57

navyinrwanda
07-29-2009, 9:34 AM
It's the same in Australia, ever since draconian gun prohibitions became law in the wake of the April 28, 1996 Port Arthur "rampage".
AAP General News (Australia) 04-17-2007
Fed: PM Howard rejects US gun culture

LOWOOD, Qld April 17 AAP - Prime Minister John Howard says he'll do all he can to ensure an American-style "gun culture" does not flourish in Australia.

FS00008
07-29-2009, 9:38 AM
I have a feeling that these measures will be short lived honestly...

.454
07-29-2009, 9:40 AM
Handbuns are more dangerous than long buns .


Sorry man, I just couldn't resist. :)

navyinrwanda
07-29-2009, 9:46 AM
Dermot Ahern Announces Introduction of Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009
Act to introduce tough Gun Control Regime

· A ban on ‘practical shooting’ (a self styled extreme shooting activity).

This means International Practical Shooting (IPSC (http://www.ipsc.org/)) and International Defensive Pistol competition (IDPA (http://www.idpa.com/)).

st.clouds
07-29-2009, 10:02 AM
Wow that's a little extreme to put it mildly. And the Irish are ok with this? I'm not hearing any fallout from such a stupid law. If so, well... they get what they deserve.

gewgaw
07-29-2009, 10:09 AM
Sad. But if anything good comes out of this, it will be the reams and reams of data that will be generated proving again that bans on firearms do nothing to reduce violent crime. Then we can use that data to defend our 2A rights.

And how exactly is someone in Ireland supposed to be a competitive pistol target shooter if pistols are banned, hmm? This law is ludicrous... even by CA standards! :)

st.clouds
07-29-2009, 10:14 AM
Sad. But if anything good comes out of this, it will be the reams and reams of data that will be generated proving again that bans on firearms do nothing to reduce violent crime. Then we can use that data to defend our 2A rights.

And how exactly is someone in Ireland supposed to be a competitive pistol target shooter if pistols are banned, hmm? This law is ludicrous... even by CA standards! :)

There's been enough such statistics to make the claim. Still the morons choose to ignore them with their paranoia and disdain for personal responsibility.

stag1500
07-29-2009, 10:20 AM
Despicable! I'm adding Ireland to my list of countries never to visit. The U.K. and Australia are already at the top of that list. :mad:

yellowfin
07-29-2009, 11:01 AM
I honestly would have thought that the Irish being a people too well aware of oppression would reject such garbage.

CnCFunFactory
07-29-2009, 11:18 AM
Handbuns are more dangerous than long buns .


Sorry man, I just couldn't resist. :)

I wasn't aware they had Dodger dogs in Belfast....:)

Adonlude
07-29-2009, 11:18 AM
I honestly would have thought that the Irish being a people too well aware of oppression would reject such garbage.

Guess they need another Edward Longshanks to remind them.

Theseus
07-29-2009, 11:20 AM
I honestly would have thought that the Irish being a people too well aware of oppression would reject such garbage.

Yeah, I would think so too. . . But then the argument comes that. . . Now we rule, so who is going to oppress us, us?

gewgaw
07-29-2009, 11:35 AM
There's been enough such statistics to make the claim. Still the morons choose to ignore them with their paranoia and disdain for personal responsibility.

Not to hijack, but maybe the Irish would also like to know: Does anyone know of any crime statistics or data where gun rights were INTRODUCED to a society where guns were once banned?

nicki
07-29-2009, 11:47 AM
It is ironic that Ireland was created by people who took up arms to get rid of an oppressive government.

Now they have a homegrown government that has disarmed the people and hopefully the Irish people will never have to try to replace the government.

I thought that Ireland prior to this law had fairly restrictive gun laws already anyway.

The War for Irish Independence though had different results. Ireland split into civil war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War

When our War of Independence ended, we had differences, but the county did not immediately break out into Civil War.

Like most Wars for independence, most of the population are bystanders, and the Irish bystanders like safety over freedom.

The Gun Culture represents a independent mindset and most people in Ireland have a dependence mindset.

American investment in Ireland has increased, perhaps they are afraid that we are infecting their culture.:rolleyes:

Nicki

dwtt
07-29-2009, 11:47 AM
I thought the Irish has long had a gun culture, which is why they resisted British control for so long. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but didn't the IRA used to exist for this sole purpose? Maybe I watched The Wind That Shakes the Barley too many times.

jeffm223
07-29-2009, 1:59 PM
The reason that the Irish people don't seem to object, is that they are not in control of their government/media. The English occupy and control Ireland and they maintain that control via laws like this. Notice that throughout the history of the English and the IRA, the consistent demand by the English has been to "lay down arms." Of course that only applies to the Irish, not the English occupiers. Now we see what happens when that demand is met, even in part. That England is allowed to continue their colonial treatment of Ireland is not the fault of the Irish, but is instead the fault of the international community at large. Long ago England should have been subject to international sanctions over their illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland. Instead, the international community has allowed a "blame the victim" mentality to sweep these abuses under the rug. Read up on Irish history (written by Irishmen) and you will see what is in store for us: the same process of subjugation has already begun here in the USA.

Model X
07-29-2009, 2:07 PM
Uhh, your aware that the British only control Northern Ireland right?

leitung
07-29-2009, 2:35 PM
Uhh, your aware that the British only control Northern Ireland right?

+1..


They want to "prevent a gun culture like America's" so what is bad about that? Are they planning something that requires disarming of honest citizens?

I don't trust a person, who doesn't trust me with my guns.. Especially those in politics.

SeanCasey
07-29-2009, 3:36 PM
Very interesting. In the late 1700's my family left Ireland due to oppression and all fought in the American Revolution. I almost think the Irish government sees some of their populace want to be more like us American's and they are punishing them by further restricting them. I wonder if their government will get to the point that the remaining hardline IRA will go after them?

jeffm223
07-29-2009, 3:41 PM
Uhh, your aware that the British only control Northern Ireland right?

Which allows defacto control of the rest. This is the same strategy that they have used in most, if not all, of their "former" colonies. They retain economic control while allowing the illusion of self rule in the political theater. Look at it this way: if most of the industrial capacity of the US was concentrated in one state and that state was occupied by a foreign power, would you consider the rest of the states free?

HondaMasterTech
07-29-2009, 5:22 PM
Most people will agree that reducing the number of victims of crimes is what is desired. It is unfortunate that many people are afraid of the tools needed to accomplish this goal.

Shotgun Man
07-29-2009, 6:31 PM
Despicable! I'm adding Ireland to my list of countries never to visit. The U.K. and Australia are already at the top of that list. :mad:

I see your point, but that's sorta like not doing business with CA due to our gun laws.

7x57
07-29-2009, 9:06 PM
Handbuns are more dangerous than long buns .


Urk. Well, I guess I'll just have to go with it now...baked goods are a fundamental right! Free the biscuits! You can have my pastries when you can pry them from my cold, dead hands!

Or bloated, fat hands, depending on how many "liberty loafs" I eat in the meantime.

7x57

GoodEyeSniper
07-29-2009, 9:33 PM
Not to hijack, but maybe the Irish would also like to know: Does anyone know of any crime statistics or data where gun rights were INTRODUCED to a society where guns were once banned?

I'm curious as well.

Irrational Voice
07-29-2009, 10:03 PM
I like big buns I can't deny....

gewgaw
07-30-2009, 10:06 AM
Which allows defacto control of the rest. This is the same strategy that they have used in most, if not all, of their "former" colonies. They retain economic control while allowing the illusion of self rule in the political theater. Look at it this way: if most of the industrial capacity of the US was concentrated in one state and that state was occupied by a foreign power, would you consider the rest of the states free?

Uh, Ireland has its own industries that are not connected to Northern Ireland, especially their high-tech capabilities.... and Ireland is a member of the EU, quite separate and distinct from the UK.

pullnshoot25
07-30-2009, 10:10 AM
Harmonius should be chiming in right about now...

harmoniums
07-30-2009, 11:22 AM
First off, they collected up anything bigger than a 22 and all handguns in 1972 out of fear that the IRA would rob them from lawfull owners.
They were placed in safe keeping in the Pheonix Park Garda HQ in Dublin.
In 2004 a citizen claimed that the per se ban was unconstitutional and it was over turned, leaving Ireland in a weird gray area where all the guns taken up in 72 had to be given back and there were no license restrictions whatsoever (including F/A)
The police district superintendant had semi-final say on what he'd grant to you, typically <=308 or 12 gauge.
There were only ever 1900 handguns licensed in this period
Don't worry, this'll be challenged again (ahh the beauty of a constitutional republic)

BTW for what its worth everybody I knew was armed, albeit few were licensed, there was an old IRA guy down the road from me with a 50 Barret semi auto, he was called (I sh*t you not) Eamon Wright!

Duffys in Galway (the internet store ofr shooting in Ireland) still have pistols for sale, I wonder if they know the act will be overturned soon

http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_24

http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_18

Manic Moran
07-30-2009, 11:34 AM
Harmonium's is on it.

Not to hijack, but maybe the Irish would also like to know: Does anyone know of any crime statistics or data where gun rights were INTRODUCED to a society where guns were once banned?

Yes, Ireland.

The problem hasn't been any increase in crime traced to legally held firearms, though there have been a couple of high-profile shootings. The problem has been that the Minister has had a look at the figures, seen that the number of legally held handguns (especially including those evil Glocks) leaped from '0' to some 2,500 in the last couple of years. I've had surprisingly good response from my T.D., but it seems to not have been enough.

Unfortunately, I don't see how this is going to get challenged. I can think of no legal grounds, and politics in Ireland are the sort that nobody's going to put themselves on a limb. I'm reminded of that time that the statutory rape laws were declared unConstitutional. Big crisis, and it turned out that the government had been advised by the lawyers of the impending problem, but they just didn't want to be the ones to go to the public and say "Well, some of you won't like this, but we need to loosen the laws a bit..."

NTM

dwtt
07-30-2009, 6:58 PM
BTW for what its worth everybody I knew was armed, albeit few were licensed, there was an old IRA guy down the road from me with a 50 Barret semi auto, he was called (I sh*t you not) Eamon Wright!

Was he related to Levin Goode? :)

Duffys in Galway (the internet store ofr shooting in Ireland) still have pistols for sale, I wonder if they know the act will be overturned soon

http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_24

http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_18
Looking at those prices makes me appreciate what we have here in the US. More power to our friends in Ireland who oppose these antigun laws.