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halifax
07-28-2009, 3:25 PM
I've noticed manufacturers and wholesalers never seem to include a copy of their FFL with their shipments. How does that square with the ATF? Even the ATF eZCheck screen warns that certified copy of the FFL is needed.

Warning: No one may use this screen, in lieu of the required certified copy of a Federal Firearms License, to acquire a firearm.

The data obtained from this site is not a substitute for a certified copy of the license.

How do you guys deal with this, or not?

ke6guj
07-28-2009, 4:00 PM
I didn't recall that the transferor had to provide a copy of his license to the transferee, just that the transferee had to provide to the transferor. I know that I've had C&R shipments from dealers and they said that they did not need to supply a copy of the FFL because the buyer has to provide to the seller, not the other way around.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/aprqtr/27cfr478.94.htm
Sec. 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.

A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector
selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee
shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to
making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the
transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the
transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems
necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee
who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to
again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of
the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a
certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being
returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee
and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to furnish
certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated
by such organization: Provided further, That a multilicensed business
organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of
each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete,
containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license
expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and
the transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by
this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a
certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the
certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of
firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the
expiration date of the transferee's license.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
1512-0387)

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10496, Mar. 31, 1988]

halifax
07-28-2009, 5:36 PM
I didn't recall that the transferor had to provide a copy of his license to the transferee, just that the transferee had to provide to the transferor. I know that I've had C&R shipments from dealers and they said that they did not need to supply a copy of the FFL because the buyer has to provide to the seller, not the other way around.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/aprqtr/27cfr478.94.htm

Wow, Jack, how do you come up with these cites so quickly? I didn't even know "therefrom" was a word.

I guess I don't need to worry about it but it would sure make my A/D entries easier. :)

kemasa
07-28-2009, 5:40 PM
Yeah, it would be nice if they included the FFL number so that you can log it easier. Some places have several FFLs, so perhaps they don't want to list which one it comes from.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-28-2009, 7:32 PM
I think the idea that both parties need to exchange copies of their FFL comes from this section of the U.S. Code...

§ 926. Rules and regulations

(a) The Secretary may prescribe only such rules and regulations as are necessary to carry out the provisions of this chapter, including --

(1) regulations providing that a person licensed under this chapter, when dealing with another person so licensed, shall provide such other licensed person a certified copy of this license;

But this section really just compels the Secretary to come up with the regulations involving exchanging copies of licenses, and those regulations ended up being the CFR 478.94 that ke6guj posted above, which only require the receiving FFL to provide a copy.

tenpercentfirearms
07-28-2009, 9:06 PM
You don't need an FFL to send, only to receive. As has been stated, it just makes A&D easier.

eltee
07-28-2009, 9:20 PM
"Sec. 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.

... Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary..."

(emphasis added)

Is there any legal mumbo jumbo re. "certified" copy vs. regular / standard copy? :confused: Some dealers use faxed or emailed copies, some want a "wet" signature copy but I've never seen or heard the expression "certified copy" when dealing with a request for an FFL. I'd always assumed a faxed / emailed image of an FFL was sufficient and the other end would verify via EZcheck.

ke6guj
07-28-2009, 9:31 PM
These two newsletters talk about Faxes and emailed copies of the FFL

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/0805fflnewsletter.pdf

CERTIFIED FAXED COPIES OF LICENSES
Section 27 CFR 478.94 requires the following for sales or deliveries of firearms between licensees:
“A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary:...”
This section of the regulations requires a licensee to verify another licensee’s status prior to making sales or deliveries to such licensee. Please be advised that ATF will now recognize a faxed copy of a Federal firearms license as an acceptable alternative form of verification.
ATF strongly suggests that FFLs utilize the FFLeZ Check system and verify the authenticity of the transferee’s license prior to shipping or disposing of a firearm(s) to another licensee.
In addition, verification and certification of a license is not considered valid unless a legible copy of the transferee’s license clearly identifies the name, address, license number and expiration date of the license. Acceptance of blurred or illegible copies of a transferee’s license may constitute noncompliance with regulations.
Finally, since all fax machines and settings differ, FFLs may need to fax with a fax resolution setting of fine, super fine, or photo to ensure the fax copy of the license is legible.

and this one, http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/1206newsletter-scanned.pdf , expands it to emailed and scanned copies of the FFL.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-28-2009, 9:54 PM
Is there any legal mumbo jumbo re. "certified" copy vs. regular / standard copy?

"Certified Copy" just means the the FFL has signed the purchasing certification statement on the bottom left side of the license copy. The FFL turns a regular copy of his FFL into a "certified copy" by signing it.

§ 478.95 Certified copy of license.

The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement. This original license may be reproduced and the reproduction then certified by the licensee for use pursuant to § 478.94.

As was mentioned above, BATFE has recently loosened this regulation by allowing FFL's to sign a copy first and then make another electronic copy via fax or email. I think this only happend because of a law that was passed or a Supreme Court case decision dealing with electronic signatures being valid now. I've forgotten the details.

EOD Guy
07-29-2009, 7:06 AM
I've noticed manufacturers and wholesalers never seem to include a copy of their FFL with their shipments. How does that square with the ATF? Even the ATF eZCheck screen warns that certified copy of the FFL is needed.



How do you guys deal with this, or not?

The statement on the web site refers to transfers between licensees where the shipping FFL needs a certified copy of the receiving FFL's license. There is no requirement for a nonlicensee to obtain a copy of the receiving dealer's FFL. The eZCheck web site verification is sufficient.

There is no requirement for the receiving FFL to obtain a copy of the shippers FFL (if applicable). The shipper's FFL number is usually on the invoice.

kemasa
07-29-2009, 10:54 AM
BTW, faxed copies were considered acceptable for quite some time before emailed copies were acceptable, as silly as it sounds. At one point you could use your computer to fax a copy of your FFL to another fax, which was a computer, but if you sent it by email it was unacceptable.