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icormba
10-01-2005, 6:35 PM
interesting observations...

Looking at California law for anyone else that cares to help clear it up... it reads:
ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/9824.pdf
(not that this is actual law, rather a bulletin)

Effective Nov. 30, 1998
C&R long gun transactions will now be subject to the CALIF Dealer's Record of SALE (DROS) process. Additionally, firearms dealers will be required to complete the delivery of all firearms sales or transfers within 30 days of initiating the DROS background Check.

C&R Long Gun DROS
Firearms dealers must comply with the Ca DROS when transacting the sale, transfer, or pawn or consignment return of a C&R lng gun. THE Only exception to this new DROS requirement involves the private party transfer of a C&R long gun that is 50 years or older.

So, after reading that mess... One could conclude that any 03FFL holder in California that buys a 50 year old rifle from AIM or SOG, out of state dealers (Not Private Parties) would be breaking the LAW... right? A California Private Party transfer means both parties must be present.

SO, how is it I can order a 50 year old rifle from AIM or SOG but not a 45 year old one? Both considered C&R by the feds, but only one is considered C&R in Ca just by this DOJ announcement?

By the way... The CMP sent me an a couple IHC and HRA M1 Garands through Fed Ex right to my door step! those, at the time, were not over 50 years old! Does that mean I broke the law?

stillbigmac
10-01-2005, 7:33 PM
Those rules are as they apply to type 01 ffl's in the transfer of firearms to non-licensee's.

Before Nov. 30 1998 an FFL could cash and carry curio long guns, much the way we can with pre 1898 guns.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-01-2005, 10:36 PM
And more specificaly, those rules only apply to California Type 01 FFL's. AIM, SOG and all other out of state FFL's would be considerd private parties under California law because they don't hold "a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071".

To be considered a licensed dealer under California law you need to have a bunch of other stuff in addition to your FFL, including a seller's permit issued by the California State Board of Equalization and a Certificate of Eligability.

Since out of state dealers don't have all of these other permits and certificates, they are not considered "dealers" as defined by Calfornia law. So they are exempt from any of the California dealer transfer requirements for long guns over 50 years old.

icormba
10-02-2005, 12:36 AM
So how do we explain the CMP?
I can order C&R rifles that are not older than 50 years old from them anytime I want.

I know how to explain it at the fed level, but to California I'd be breaking a Ca law, wouldn't I?

Mssr. Eleganté
10-02-2005, 1:07 AM
We don't explain the CMP. We just order rifles from the CMP.

Actually, I believe CMP rifles are covered by the "intestate succession" exemptions in California and Federal law. The United States died and we are just inheriting its rifles. The CMP is the executor of the estate.

imported_Telpierion
10-02-2005, 6:21 AM
So how do we explain the CMP?

I don't know the details but they have special authorization from congress to do what they do.

imported_EOD Guy
10-02-2005, 7:37 AM
So how do we explain the CMP?
When Congress established the CMP, they exempted them from the requirements of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Looking at California law for anyone else that cares to help clear it up... it reads:
ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/9824.pdf
(not that this is actual law, rather a bulletin)

Effective Nov. 30, 1998
C&R long gun transactions will now be subject to the CALIF Dealer's Record of SALE (DROS) process. Additionally, firearms dealers will be required to complete the delivery of all firearms sales or transfers within 30 days of initiating the DROS background Check.

C&R Long Gun DROS
Firearms dealers must comply with the Ca DROS when transacting the sale, transfer, or pawn or consignment return of a C&R lng gun. THE Only exception to this new DROS requirement involves the private party transfer of a C&R long gun that is 50 years or older.

So, after reading that mess... One could conclude that any 03FFL holder in California that buys a 50 year old rifle from AIM or SOG, out of state dealers (Not Private Parties) would be breaking the LAW... right? A California Private Party transfer means both parties must be present.

SO, how is it I can order a 50 year old rifle from AIM or SOG but not a 45 year old one? Both considered C&R by the feds, but only one is considered C&R in Ca just by this DOJ announcement?

I've posted this before but here is a short explanation of the California C&R regulations.

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers in the state to be processed through a dealer [Penal Code 12072(d)]. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons”; and magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)]