PDA

View Full Version : The New Republic: Firearms In The Capitol Building?


vladbutsky
07-27-2009, 7:55 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111064474&ft=1&f=1001&sc=YahooNews

This one seems to be a fresh attempt to discredit CCW movement. Article is full of logic problems like suggesting that VIPs do not need to be protected or that all citizens are njoying same level of protection like our senators :)

In any case this type of argument seems to be a new angle of attack for anti gun-rights people.

MolonLabe2008
07-27-2009, 8:05 AM
If they believe that, why don't they live by it?

I agree with this 100%.

Just like all other laws that they impose on us peasants, they hold themselves exempt from.

Even gun laws. Our politicians seem to be able to get CCW permits where average citizens are prohibited or have armed guards protecting them. Meanwhile, us peasants have to fend for ourselves.

bulgron
07-27-2009, 8:16 AM
If memory serves, CCW holders can carry their weapons into the state house in New Hampshire. I think unlicensed open carry is also legal there in the state house.

So far, there have been no massacres.

For the most part, I therefore don't see a problem with citizens being legally able to carry guns into the state and national capitols. Who knows? Maybe it would make our representatives a little more responsive to our concerns over their non-constitutional activities.

That said, some politicians are more at risk from crazy gunmen than others. Historically, presidents in particular have had a problem with non-law-abiding gun owners coming after them. But this is why the SCOTUS recognizes the need for 'sensitive zones' where guns are concerned.

A national park is not a 'sensitive zone.' Nor are entire states suddenly 'sensitive zones' just because you are not a resident of that state.

As usual, the press fails to make important distinctions in complex debates. Then again, I'm no longer confident that the various members of the press are intelligent enough to make important distinctions of this kind.

Liberty1
07-27-2009, 8:26 AM
If memory serves, CCW holders can carry their weapons into the state house in New Hampshire. I think unlicensed open carry is also legal there in the state house.

Yes, OC (no license) is permissible there. In VA one needs a CHL to cc or oc in the capitol.

CCW holders can legally do the same in CA (171c PC). (whether or not the CHP guards would recognize the exemption is another thing)

Roadrunner
07-27-2009, 8:45 AM
While the liberals are using sarcasm in this article to attempt to illustrate the absurdity of citizens carrying concealed, there is not one part of the article I can disagree with. Having "sensitive" areas that restrict carrying is an open invitation to abuse by those that want to disarm the populace any way they can. I think I will send an email to the author and thank them for their insightfulness and their furtherance of the "CCW movement".

yellowfin
07-27-2009, 9:51 AM
If memory serves, CCW holders can carry their weapons into the state house in New Hampshire. I think unlicensed open carry is also legal there in the state house.

So far, there have been no massacres. Also note that they don't even attempt the tomfoolery they get away with in less 2A friendly states. If they inch one toe towards something they shouldn't then they know they are accountable to the fullest extent.
For the most part, I therefore don't see a problem with citizens being legally able to carry guns into the state and national capitols. Who knows? Maybe it would make our representatives a little more responsive to our concerns over their non-constitutional activities. Which is PRECISELY why they fight tooth and nail to see that it doesn't happen.
As usual, the press fails to make important distinctions in complex debates. Then again, I'm no longer confident that the various members of the press are intelligent enough to make important distinctions of this kind.I think they probably can and might be tempted to do so if their paycheck wasn't on the line. I'd venture they've probably been informed they will be fired on the spot and never work again if they come over to our side. It certainly appears that way and I honestly can't think of any other explaination.

Mikeb
07-27-2009, 2:09 PM
I agree 100%. If we can't trust our lawmakers with guns how can we possibly trust them to write laws. And the way they are throwing money around they need to make some cuts in overhead. I don't think a politician has ever voted to cut their pay. So fire the guards and let them protect themselves. Unfortunately I don't see this happening in Sacramento .
take care
Mike

phamkl
07-27-2009, 3:25 PM
The average armed citizen isn't defending himself against assassination.

Considering that a crime against a senator, in a legislative building, it would most likely be an assassination meant to send a message in such a brazen attack and the attacker would likely not be planning on leaving the building.

Glock22Fan
07-27-2009, 4:22 PM
For the most part, I therefore don't see a problem with citizens being legally able to carry guns into the state and national capitols. Who knows? Maybe it would make our representatives a little more responsive to our concerns over their non-constitutional activities.

Wasn't there a SciFi book a long time ago where politicians literally lived and served at the whim of the people. If I remember properly, there was something like an instant referendum on how they were doing. If enough people pushed the "no confidence" button, the politician was executed.

Roadrunner
07-27-2009, 4:23 PM
Wasn't there a SciFi book a long time ago where politicians literally lived and served at the whim of the people. If I remember properly, there was something like an instant referendum on how they were doing. If enough people pushed the "no confidence" button, the politician was executed.

Hmmmmm, what a novel idea.

Legasat
07-27-2009, 4:33 PM
Another liberal bonehead trying to make a point with sarcasm. The problem is, I agree with the article. Arm the congress, arm the people.

7x57
07-27-2009, 5:27 PM
Wasn't there a SciFi book a long time ago where politicians literally lived and served at the whim of the people. If I remember properly, there was something like an instant referendum on how they were doing. If enough people pushed the "no confidence" button, the politician was executed.

Aw, this novel (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20121) is much more fun. You get to personally shoot misbehaving politicians. :43:

7x57

forgiven
07-27-2009, 5:35 PM
Live free or Die-NH. The freest state in the Union. Pretty expensive to live there, though.

bulgron
07-27-2009, 7:06 PM
Wasn't there a SciFi book a long time ago where politicians literally lived and served at the whim of the people. If I remember properly, there was something like an instant referendum on how they were doing. If enough people pushed the "no confidence" button, the politician was executed.

There was a SciFi short story from the 50's, I think, where people lived on a world full of Texans. Everything was done bigger on that world. .45s were considered the equivalent of .22LRs. The cows were the size of dinosaurs. Ranches all had their own personal armed forces that they used to combat the wildlife and "rustlers."

Anyway, their constitution allowed them to assassinate any politician who introduced legislation designed to inhibit their personal freedoms. Part of the story centered around a trial where a fellow killed a politician who tried to implement a personal income tax. He got set free. And they gave him a standing ovation at the end of the trial.

bulgron
07-27-2009, 7:07 PM
Aw, this novel (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20121) is much more fun. You get to personally shoot misbehaving politicians. :43:

7x57

Yep. That's the one. I remembered it being a short story. I was wrong.

7x57
07-27-2009, 8:13 PM
Yep. That's the one. I remembered it being a short story. I was wrong.

There may have been two versions. It was originally published under the title Planet for Texans, and while I believe they're the same story it's not impossible it was expanded between publications. But I bet there was only one version published under multiple titles.

That author, BTW, is one of the few that was not simply gun friendly but one of us. He was personally a gun collector, and his future never has any kind of gun control except as part of a system sliding into totalitarianism. Generally rifles are semi-auto, carbines are full auto. Generally the types of cartridges we recognize, unless it's a *very* far future story (energy weapons show up by something like the fifth empire) or one of the advanced Paratime races (one uses itty-bitty hypervelocity slugs, like 10,000 ft/s, though they're too fast for chemical propellants and no explanation is given). Pistols are semi-auto as well, and as they tend to have manual safeties I can only conclude that the Glock vs. 1911 wars end with everyone in the future realizing the truth and adopting the superior platform. :43:

I just find it interesting to read a book where the gun details aren't stupid and the author believes that anyone disarming his characters could only be planning something nasty afterwards. One other interesting thing--we didn't have much gun control back when he wrote, but he seems to have seen how things were going and basically gave up on representative government. He sort of flirts with aristocracy, but more or less indicates that it's really a hopeless job and nothing is likely to keep societies from sliding into totalitarianism and the elimination of personal freedom.

Calguns exists to prove him wrong on at least one point. :)

7x57

7x57
07-27-2009, 8:25 PM
.45s were considered the equivalent of .22LRs.


You're spot on except for this one. I don't recall any denigration of 11.4 mm caliber or so. I bet you're half-remembering the little bit of "Weatherby vs. Elmer Keith" type of politics. The author himself seems to have been a bit of a hypervelocity fan. The New Texans love big calibers and look down on the main character's 7mm-ish sidearms, but it's some kind of hypervelocity cartridge that is a small secret for the diplomatic corps and they turn out to be more effective than the .45 ACP-ish cartridges they prefer, much to their surprise.

Don't ya love a novel where you can actually figure out where the author stands on such minutae?


Anyway, their constitution allowed them to assassinate any politician who introduced legislation designed to inhibit their personal freedoms. Part of the story centered around a trial where a fellow killed a politician who tried to implement a personal income tax. He got set free. And they gave him a standing ovation at the end of the trial.

Well, of course. Murder isn't malum in se, a jury just has to decide if you punished the politician too harshly. This being a New Texas jury, IIRC the only juror who didn't want to vote for acquittal in the case of the politician who proposed an income tax didn't think it was too harsh, he was furious that the scoundrel had simply been cut down with a machete instead of some longer and more painful method. :43:

Also, don't forget the merciless lampooning of the socialist lawyer who defends the killers of the Terran ambassador. I'm actually kinda glad Piper didn't live to see our current administration.

7x57

GoodEyeSniper
07-27-2009, 8:39 PM
wow, definitely have to check these books out

bulgron
07-27-2009, 10:36 PM
You're spot on except for this one. I don't recall any denigration of 11.4 mm caliber or so.

I have a memory of people in that story making fun of a guy who was carrying an "old style .45". They called it a pop gun. It happened in passing, IIRC.

It's been a REALLY long time since I read that story, so my memory can easily be beyond faulty on this. I guess I should re-read it. It's an oldie but a goody.



Well, of course. Murder isn't malum in se, a jury just has to decide if you punished the politician too harshly. This being a New Texas jury, IIRC the only juror who didn't want to vote for acquittal in the case of the politician who proposed an income tax didn't think it was too harsh, he was furious that the scoundrel had simply been cut down with a machete instead of some longer and more painful method. :43:

Oh, right! I remember that now.

Of course, a system that like would never work in the real world -- no one would go into politics and so what you'd end up with a rudderless bureaucracy, at best, and outright anarchy at worst. Still, it was a fun bit of fantasy.


Also, don't forget the merciless lampooning of the socialist lawyer who defends the killers of the Terran ambassador. I'm actually kinda glad Piper didn't live to see our current administration.

7x57

Yeah, everyone hated that socialist guy. I kept wondering why he didn't just up and move. It was clear he was never going to be happy where he was living.

One of the better parts of that story were the spring-loaded holsters. I could have used something like that at the self defense shooting class I took a couple of weeks ago .... ;)

7x57
07-27-2009, 11:44 PM
I have a memory of people in that story making fun of a guy who was carrying an "old style .45". They called it a pop gun. It happened in passing, IIRC.


Nah. Popguns are what Hoddy Ringo called Stephen Silk's 7mm high-velocity pistols. Cuz Hoddy thinks like I do in regard to pistol caliber.


Of course, a system that like would never work in the real world -- no one would go into politics and so what you'd end up with a rudderless bureaucracy, at best, and outright anarchy at worst. Still, it was a fun bit of fantasy.


I believe that Piper was a bit more serious than that, actually. But in fact the entire story premise is based on an essay of Mencken's, I think it was, and Mencken was nothing if not a curmudgeon. Isn't it a curmudgeonly idea to say killing politicians shouldn't be murder unless they got more than they had coming?


Yeah, everyone hated that socialist guy. I kept wondering why he didn't just up and move. It was clear he was never going to be happy where he was living.


Piper didn't devote a great deal of overtime to fleshing out the details on that particular character. Think of that itself as pointed commentary. :)


One of the better parts of that story were the spring-loaded holsters. I could have used something like that at the self defense shooting class I took a couple of weeks ago .... ;)

Ah, that's right--the department secret was the quick-draw rig, not the pistols.

They had interesting sports on that planet too. Admit it--you'd like to see jousting with tanks someday. :)

7x57

cousinkix1953
07-27-2009, 11:48 PM
The average armed citizen isn't defending himself against assassination.
Yes they are! Dead is dead, whether somebody gets killed by a political opponent or a crackhead who wants some free $$$ to support a drug habit. We just got rid of one pistol packing anti-gun a--hole senator from Oakland. Don Perata told the mass media, that he carries a 9mm Beretta pistol; because he's afraid of right wing malitia gun nuts in 1995. This suicidal fool would never get close enough to use his handgun against an enemy that is armed with centerfire rifles and some have telescopic sights on them. ROFLMAO.

A decent .30 caliber sporter has about ten times the effective range as a 9mm pistol. Not a fair fight at all; so why bother packing heat, unless he's afraid to admit being scared of the ordinary dirtbags like everybody else. Special rights for the ruling class elite smells like fascism to me. It's time to adopt a shall issue CCW permit program or disarm these jive azzed hypocrites at the ballot box...

phamkl
07-27-2009, 11:59 PM
Dead is dead but most crimes one might be a victim to are committed by criminals who don't make it to murderer.

I'm saying that the article doesn't account for some obvious nuances. I didn't mention how I feel about them getting ccw. They don't deserve them unless we get them.

cousinkix1953
07-28-2009, 12:05 AM
"Law-abiding individuals have the right to self-defense, especially because the Supreme Court has consistently found that police have no constitutional obligation to protect individuals from other individuals," he said. I guess Thune doesn't think those guards and the Capitol Police have any obligation to protect him."
Anybody who doesn't believe it, needs to only see that the police rarely arrest anybody, for smoking weed at big rock concerts. They can't possibly cite hundreds of stoned people, without starting a riot.

The 1992 Los Angeles riots were another example of the police not being able to enforce the laws; so the people armed themselves. It was the same story after Hurricane Katrina in 2004. Dozens of New Orleans PD officers deserted their posts like cowards in the military. Next we see a video oof some Kommiefornia Highway Patrol men beating up an old lady and confiscating her revolver under the orders of that city's corrupt liberal mayor!

"Don't think this column is offered lightly. I want these guys to put up or shut up. If the NRA's servants in Congress don't take their arguments seriously enough to apply them to their own lives, maybe the rest of us should do more to stop them from imposing their nonsense on our country."
Are we really surprised that many anti-gun politicans carry concealed weapons or travel with their own private army of security guards? Not me. i also know that EJ Dionne is an anti-gun NRA hater, after hearing him say so one of those cable news yack shows...

bulgron
07-28-2009, 12:09 AM
Nah. Popguns are what Hoddy Ringo called Stephen Silk's 7mm high-velocity pistols. Cuz Hoddy thinks like I do in regard to pistol caliber.

Okay, I believe you.

A 7mm high-velocity round seems like a really bad idea to me. Wouldn't it have problems with over-penetration, which means all that energy would be wasted on the other side of the target. Unless you're shooting one of those dinosaur-sized cows, of course. But I don't remember them carrying pistols to defend against the wildlife.

I guess I'd better read that story again.



They had interesting sports on that planet too. Admit it--you'd like to see jousting with tanks someday. :)

7x57

Now, what red-blooded American male WOULDN'T want to see jousting with tanks? :D

spencerhut
07-28-2009, 7:18 AM
Yes, OC (no license) is permissible there. In VA one needs a CHL to cc or oc in the capitol.

CCW holders can legally do the same in CA (171c PC). (whether or not the CHP guards would recognize the exemption is another thing)

Wait a minute, I can CCW in the California State Capitol? Really?:chris: Sweet.

I wonder if I'll get hassled i.e. thrown to the ground, beat, pepper sprayed, tazed and cuffed.

7x57
07-28-2009, 7:21 AM
Okay, I believe you.

A 7mm high-velocity round seems like a really bad idea to me. Wouldn't it have problems with over-penetration, which means all that energy would be wasted on the other side of the target.

He may not have thought *that* hard about it. It could come under the heading of "SF author's privilege." You know--"this technology works this way because I say so."

However, we could speculate that in an era where interstellar travel is about as remarkable as shipping is in ours, they can make controlled-expansion frangibles that have whatever penetration they want at whatever velocity they want. We can do that, since people are now saying that an AR with frangible ammo actually penetrates less than buckshot, so presumably they can too. Piper may have even thought of it that way: the main character says they hit harder and make bigger holes than the big-bore pistols, which surely means he is thinking of a very large expansion on impact at rifle velocities.

I think that's fair enough--the unrealistic part is rifle velocities from a chemically-propelled handgun without enough muzzle blast to have deafened everyone downrange. :) But Piper scored a hit, I think, anticipating high-velocity frangible rounds (if that's more or less what he had in mind).

I'd feel bad for hijacking the thread, but as it was just for complaining about a hit piece, I don't feel all that repentant. He's a good author for gunnies and Libertarians--there is a lot of commentary about the folly of gun control, implicit and explicit. The most over-the-top one is probably "The Cosmic Computer," where there are absolutely no controls on civilian ownership *and use* of salvaged nukes and other really fun big-boy toys. :eek: Much commentary on the theme of an Armed Society in that novel.

7x57