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Safonator
07-26-2009, 4:11 PM
it is dissasembled, Would that constitute posession of a firearm, or just parts? Would it matter if the upper and lower were at seperate locations? Jst trying get clarification on the definition, as i have read here having a lower doesnt mean you necessarily have a firearm as i am trying to avoid any implications when i decide to do my build.:confused:

Mstrty
07-26-2009, 4:16 PM
it is dissasembled, Would that constitute posession of a firearm, or just parts? Would it matter if the upper and lower were at seperate locations? Jst trying get clarification on the definition, as i have read here having a lower doesnt mean you necessarily have a firearm as i am trying to avoid any implications when i decide to do my build.:confused:
IIRC The lower is the firearm. Assembled or not. ready to fire or not. This doesnt mean its a loaded firearm but it is a firearm as per any law. (im not a lawyer.)
Plenty of people will chime in with more knowledge than I so I will sit back and watch.

69Mach1
07-26-2009, 4:17 PM
Firearms laws here are intricate. What firearm are you talking about building? AR rifle, AR pistol, or other? If you're trying to avoid creating an illegal CA assault weapon, remember there is no constructive possession for them.

Safonator
07-26-2009, 4:20 PM
Firearms laws here are intricate. What firearm are you talking about building?

I was considering an OLL AR or possible variant already built. Going to be moving in a few weeks, so i am putting it on hold, and educating myself now.

packnrat
07-26-2009, 11:33 PM
As I have understood it,

the part with the ser # is a firearm. all the "other" parts are just....parts.
so on the "ar" style it would be the lower, even with no parts in/on it.
A standard bolt action rifle it would be the part that the bolt "rides" in.

.

dilligaffrn
07-27-2009, 7:24 AM
As I have understood it,

the part with the ser # is a firearm. all the "other" parts are just....parts.
so on the "ar" style it would be the lower, even with no parts in/on it.
A standard bolt action rifle it would be the part that the bolt "rides" in.

.

A glock for example has ser numbers on the frame, slide and barrel, the frame is the firearm (on some firearms it can be a bit confusing, ie ruger 22/45 etc).

jimmythebrain
07-27-2009, 7:58 AM
Now I could be wrong...but

The serialized receiver is the registered part.

But didn't the CA supreme court rule that in order to be a gun/weapon that you had to have both a barrel and receiver together. Otherwise the things were just parts, serialized or not. That is why we can get off list lowers. The crime only becomes having these lowers (registered part) assembled with an upper (barrel).

AR guns are complicated because they have specific ban laws naming certain models and features.

If a pistol was disassembled and in different containers, then I would think that it would not be considered a firearm.

AJAX22
07-27-2009, 8:13 AM
the only item which changes status in CA depending on configuration is antique and black powder guns.

Legally when unloaded they are not considered firearms (although they could run afoul of 'look alike' issues if you were to cary one)

however when they are loaded/primed they are treated in many ways as being identical to a normal firearm.

djleisure
07-27-2009, 11:37 AM
Legally when unloaded they are not considered firearms (although they could run afoul of 'look alike' issues if you were to cary one)
This is actually something that I was wondering recently. I hope this isn't too far off-topic, if so, I'll gladly start my own thread...

I was just checking out some pictures of all the elaborate outfits people throw together for Comic-Con and saw a couple of GI Joe guys with some crazy-looking (most likely plastic) AR-type guns. If somebody was to take the bolt, BCG (and maybe even charging handle) out of their AR and traipse around with it in an environment where it is generally accepted as a costume, would this be legal? I know it may not be smart (and I don't go to Comic-Con or any other "Con" anyway) but would it technically be legal? Does it cease to be a firearm if it technically cannot fire anything?

Just curious - thanks for any insight!

Irrational Voice
07-27-2009, 12:00 PM
the receiver of an AR or AK are considered a firearm. Frame is the critical part in most handguns. A firearm is always a firearm once registered unless it is rendered permanently inoperable. (Think of de-miled AKs, those aren't firearms)

As to Jimmy's point about needing to be assembled that is NOT to be considered a firearm, that is to be considered a rifle, pistol etc. A stripped lower (in the case of an AR) is not a rifle but it is still a firearm.

As to partially disassembling an AR for use in a costume, it is still a firearm legally. Whether it is legal to do or not has will depend on the laws controlling any other unloaded/disassembled firearm.

M. Sage
07-27-2009, 12:10 PM
This is actually something that I was wondering recently. I hope this isn't too far off-topic, if so, I'll gladly start my own thread...

I was just checking out some pictures of all the elaborate outfits people throw together for Comic-Con and saw a couple of GI Joe guys with some crazy-looking (most likely plastic) AR-type guns. If somebody was to take the bolt, BCG (and maybe even charging handle) out of their AR and traipse around with it in an environment where it is generally accepted as a costume, would this be legal? I know it may not be smart (and I don't go to Comic-Con or any other "Con" anyway) but would it technically be legal? Does it cease to be a firearm if it technically cannot fire anything?

Just curious - thanks for any insight!

No. On an AR, the lower is a firearm, even if it's stripped. It's probably legal, actually, since unloaded open carry is legal. In fact, I'd say it's probably more legal, since displaying a look-a-like is illegal in CA.

Easy rule of thumb: If you buy it from an FFL and have to go through a background check to take delivery, it's a firearm.

Librarian
07-27-2009, 12:23 PM
A stripped lower (in the case of an AR) is not a rifle but it is still a firearm.

That's a subtle point and bears some emphasis.

We've seen how this affects purchases - under 21 cannot buy a stripped lower, because it isn't a rifle (yet).

And there is California case law (that darned People v Hale, 1974) that shows that a disassembled firearm is still a firearm.

bwiese
07-27-2009, 12:30 PM
And there is California case law (that darned People v Hale, 1974)
that shows that a disassembled firearm is still a firearm.

I will also add that while a broken down AW (i.e., an AR split into an upper and lower) is not an AW, a 'broken AW' - for example, missing a bolt carrier - is likely regardable as an AW even though nonoperational.

OLL rifles should generally have specific steps taken to render them into nonAW status: BB installed, or MMG installed + no evil features, or bolt action w/no gas system, etc.

Decoligny
07-27-2009, 1:08 PM
the receiver of an AR or AK are considered a firearm. Frame is the critical part in most handguns. A firearm is always a firearm once registered unless it is rendered permanently inoperable. (Think of de-miled AKs, those aren't firearms)

As to Jimmy's point about needing to be assembled that is NOT to be considered a firearm, that is to be considered a rifle, pistol etc. A stripped lower (in the case of an AR) is not a rifle but it is still a firearm.

As to partially disassembling an AR for use in a costume, it is still a firearm legally. Whether it is legal to do or not has will depend on the laws controlling any other unloaded/disassembled firearm.

The only way around it being a firearm would be if you machined a fake lower that looked real but did not have any functional parts. You could attach that in place of your real lower, and then you would have a non-functional replica firearm. This I believe is however regulated by other laws.

Probably better idea would be to buy a realistic toy AR.

Safonator
07-27-2009, 6:42 PM
Thanks for the feedback.Some good info indeed. I do plan on having it fully comply as a non AW status per as the law states BTW. I am looking to avoid look alike/AW charges thats can possibly happen, you all helped to clear that up, thanks again.

Peace!