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View Full Version : POLL: UOC - head count?


oaklander
07-26-2009, 1:59 PM
I don't want to start another flame-war here. I simply want to know how many people have done UOC, or are planning to do UOC in California. Please keep the discussion civil.

:)

oaklander
07-26-2009, 2:04 PM
Also - I'm not talking about UOC while camping or something like that (RED!)

I'm talking about UOC in a city.

redneckshootist
07-26-2009, 2:07 PM
I have UOC before in the past. I dont like the idea of making a public spectacle of it, usually only carried a rifle or shotgun in the truck. very rarely carried a pistol. I tryed my best not to attract attention to the whole idea because of the political environment of this state. I also decided to stop a few months back when CGF advised people to stop.

oaklander
07-26-2009, 2:13 PM
I've UOC'ed before. . . at the range.

I have UOC before in the past. I dont like the idea of making a public spectacle of it, usually only carried a rifle or shotgun in the truck. very rarely carried a pistol. I tryed my best not to attract attention to the whole idea because of the political environment of this state. I also decided to stop a few months back when CGF advised people to stop.

technique
07-26-2009, 2:16 PM
I have UOC before...I do not at this time. I do not advise anyone do it at this time...

I will say a 1911 on your hip at 3am in Denny's gets you top notch service.:eek::)

lorax3
07-26-2009, 2:24 PM
You should have options for those in-between or undecided. Or those who have OC'ed and no longer wish to and vice-versa. Not to mention what you mean by, 'good idea'. For self defense reasons? Legal reasons?

Also, it would seem that for people to truly voice their opinion the poll should remain anonymous to avoid personal attacks/flame war.

ChibiPaw
07-26-2009, 2:26 PM
I'm already a spectacle walking around the way I do. I dont need anymore attention.

technique
07-26-2009, 2:27 PM
I agree w/lorax

I had to vote yes even though I am not for UOC.

gcvt
07-26-2009, 2:40 PM
I live in San Francisco, so I do not.

Experimentalist
07-26-2009, 2:45 PM
I voted "Do not plan..." because I don't plan to UOC in public.

Like Oaklander, I've open carried while taking shooting classes. But then, everyone is open carrying, so I blended nicely.

Kestryll
07-26-2009, 3:07 PM
You should have options for those in-between or undecided. Or those who have OC'ed and no longer wish to and vice-versa. Not to mention what you mean by, 'good idea'. For self defense reasons? Legal reasons?

Also, it would seem that for people to truly voice their opinion the poll should remain anonymous to avoid personal attacks/flame war.

Good ideas, they have been implemented.

technique
07-26-2009, 3:15 PM
Good ideas, they have been implemented.

I can't un-vote can I?

CitaDeL
07-26-2009, 3:49 PM
I don't want to start another flame-war here. I simply want to know how many people have done UOC, or are planning to do UOC in California. Please keep the discussion civil.

:)

If you aren't intending to start another flame-war- I fail to see another reason to post another poll with an inductive statement like 'good idea/bad idea' in the title- unless you intend to use it as another tool to discourage the practice of exposed carry.

I have not participated in this poll and suggest others who support exposed carry to do likewise. There is no benefit for us to reveal our 'status' as a statistic.

forgiven
07-26-2009, 3:53 PM
Do not.

redneckshootist
07-26-2009, 3:54 PM
Good ideas, they have been implemented.

its been changed after I voted..... so now my vote should go for have in the past but not anymore

oaklander
07-26-2009, 4:04 PM
Kes made the poll anonymous. Your status remains a secret.

If you aren't intending to start another flame-war- I fail to see another reason to post another poll with an inductive statement like 'good idea/bad idea' in the title- unless you intend to use it as another tool to discourage the practice of exposed carry.

I have not participated in this poll and suggest others who support exposed carry to do likewise. There is no benefit for us to reveal our 'status' as a statistic.

CitaDeL
07-26-2009, 4:42 PM
Kes made the poll anonymous. Your status remains a secret.

Whether or not the poll is anonymous is irrelevant. It is also safe to say that my views on the subject are already known.

The problem that I have with the poll is that it was posted as a tool to illustrate and target UOCr's as a statistical minority by those who currently oppose the practice of carrying exposed and intend on inducing a particular conclusion.

My answer is, 'No thank you.'

oaklander
07-26-2009, 5:06 PM
That is not correct. I am trying to determine how many UOC'ers are out there for purposes of a larger conversation that I am engaged in.

EDIT: I changed the thread title to reflect this.

Whether or not the poll is anonymous is irrelevant. It is also safe to say that my views on the subject are already known.

The problem that I have with the poll is that it was posted as a tool to illustrate and target UOCr's as a statistical minority by those who currently oppose the practice of carrying exposed and intend on inducing a particular conclusion.

My answer is, 'No thank you.'

Window_Seat
07-26-2009, 7:25 PM
I have no problem with the poll. I voted "no, I do not plan to". I have indicated my reasons in another topic I started, and some did not appreciate my view on it, but they have every right to either appreciate it or not appreciate it. I am 100% for LOC when (I should say "if") it becomes a protected activity. Too many out of control "authorities" wanting to throw us away for exercising such rights, and fabricating charges to get us convicted. It's better to at least wait until Incorporation becomes concrete.

Erik.

lrdchivalry
07-26-2009, 8:15 PM
I voted no to UOC only because I can legally carry concealed. I definately in favor of shall issue for ccw's.

Paladin
07-26-2009, 9:05 PM
None of the options really fit me. How about one that says something like, "I'll consider UOC if and only if the leadership of CGF and/or the NRA (aka "The Right People") say it will help advance our cause. Until then, I have no plans to UOC."

Since you did not have anything close to that, I did not vote.

PEBKAC
07-26-2009, 9:11 PM
Don't currently UOC, live in a minefield of schoolzones (thanks suburbia).

Irrational Voice
07-26-2009, 9:13 PM
I'm already a spectacle walking around the way I do. I dont need anymore attention.

LCC is no less legally ambiguous it is just less obvious.

aplinker
07-26-2009, 9:41 PM
I voted:

"Yes, just to bunch Oaklander's panties."


Nah... I don't UOC. I have enough drama in my life.

Roadrunner
07-26-2009, 10:10 PM
I live in a town of 20,000+. Everyone is generally polite or at the minimum civil if they acknowledge you at all. So far I see no reason to UOC and draw attention to myself which doesn't suggest that others shouldn't do it either. If a person feels comfortable carrying an unloaded gun, by all means be my guest. I will also add that there are only a couple of schools, so gun free school zones are a very minor problem here. Additionally, crime in Patterson is a relatively minor issue, and I learned a while back that there is only one part of town that is a somewhat problem spot but doesn't seem to generate many police calls despite its "notorious" reputation.

Those of you that live in the more populated areas of Urbania need guns worse than I do, however, if we were to get shall issue tomorrow, I would certainly apply the next day. Quite frankly, it sucks to be you, but living there is your choice.

Hopi
07-26-2009, 10:28 PM
I voted:

"Yes, just to bunch Oaklander's panties."


Nah... I don't UOC. I have enough drama in my life.

What's her name?

oaklander
07-26-2009, 11:00 PM
Damn, I was wondering why they were so tight tonight. . .

I voted:

"Yes, just to bunch Oaklander's panties."


Nah... I don't UOC. I have enough drama in my life.

wildhawker
07-26-2009, 11:03 PM
Damn, I was wondering why they were so tight tonight. . .

:useless:

:puke:

oaklander
07-26-2009, 11:10 PM
Must. Resist. Impulse.

:useless:

:puke:

wildhawker
07-26-2009, 11:18 PM
I g.. I go.. I gotta go.

Must. Resist. Impulse.

aplinker
07-26-2009, 11:29 PM
I g.. I go.. I gotta go.

You'll be in your bunk?

radioman
07-26-2009, 11:37 PM
an unloaded gun is a fing hazard, here is why bag guy sees your empty mag well, and he is cocked locked and readied to go, your fed. just carry a hammer, a ball ping.

aplinker
07-26-2009, 11:41 PM
an unloaded gun is a fing hazard, here is why bag guy sees your empty mag well, and he is cocked locked and readied to go, your fed. just carry a hammer, a ball ping.

Most UOC guys carry with an empty mag.

radioman
07-27-2009, 12:05 PM
Most UOC guys carry with an empty mag.

Ok so now you need it, drop the mag put one in, but I'm the bad guy I'm not standing around all day for you to load your gun, I am taking it.

Vacaville
07-27-2009, 12:17 PM
You need another option - Unsure and have plenty of knowledge about it.

Glock22Fan
07-27-2009, 12:25 PM
Ok so now you need it, drop the mag put one in, but I'm the bad guy I'm not standing around all day for you to load your gun, I am taking it.

Guess you'd better not take on the likes of Jerry Miculek. He can fire twelve rounds from a six shot revolver in 2.7 seconds, including the reload. Guess he could fire six from an unloaded revolver faster than that. How fast do you move?

Or maybe the guy you pick on is actually a cop and you missed seeing his badge, or maybe he just says "to heck with it" and carries loaded anyway.

This FUD of yours gets repeated over and over. Until you can show me a single case where an UOC guy has had his gun stolen, I'm crying "FUD."

I voted "NO" because I don't need the drama. I'm also unsure that uoc is a good idea. But not for the reasons you state.

I'm also unsure why I would need a ball ping (whatever that is) to face a bag guy (is that like a bag lady?)?

AHRIMAN
07-27-2009, 12:44 PM
Ok so now you need it, drop the mag put one in, but I'm the bad guy I'm not standing around all day for you to load your gun, I am taking it.


There is still the issue of you getting past my fists, feet, teeth, etc....just because somebody is a criminal does not mean they have some super powers to take your gun away...well, from the sound of it maybe your gun, but not mine. :p

ETA: I UOC'd recently with the last group, and I would do it again...even though I got 12031'd right off the bat.

7x57
07-27-2009, 12:49 PM
Guess you'd better not take on the likes of Jerry Miculek. He can fire twelve rounds from a six shot revolver in 2.7 seconds, including the reload. Guess he could fire six from an unloaded revolver faster than that. How fast do you move?


It might be noted, however, that the likes of Jerry Miculek rarely resort to low-level street crime. :p

7x57

Glock22Fan
07-27-2009, 12:53 PM
It might be noted, however, that the likes of Jerry Miculek rarely resort to low-level street crime. :p

7x57


The point was that if Jerry was uoc, the threat of radioman taking his gun off him might rebound on radioman. Certainly didn't think Jerry would resort to crime, but he might be a target.

7x57
07-27-2009, 2:04 PM
The point was that if Jerry was uoc, the threat of radioman taking his gun off him might rebound on radioman. Certainly didn't think Jerry would resort to crime, but he might be a target.

Fair enough, though I only meant that if criminals had the dedication to practice enough to be JM, they wouldn't be criminals.

But you're right that it's about the non-criminal. I change my objection to "very few of us are in any class of shooters of which JM is an exemplar." ;)

7x57

M1A Rifleman
07-27-2009, 3:35 PM
I have UOC before in the past. I dont like the idea of making a public spectacle of it, .

+1.
I mentioned this "new" UOC trend to my father. His reply was that as a kid in the 50's, there was some old geek that always used to walk around the Grass Valley County Fair open carrying a cap and ball revolver. Even then, people were pointing and laughing at what kind of a fool would carry a holstered pistol around the fair.

demnogis
07-27-2009, 5:48 PM
an unloaded gun is a fing hazard, here is why bag guy sees your empty mag well, and he is cocked locked and readied to go, your fed. just carry a hammer, a ball ping.
See, you're not thinking like a criminal. That is why arguments like these are left in the "emotional response" column and not in the "likely scenario" column.

Most street thugs/criminals look for easy marks. Man with a gun... How easy a mark is that? Do you know if it's loaded? Do you know this mark won't shoot to kill? What if this mark has more bullets then you?

On the flip side... If a criminal/street thug is out looking to murder, chances are whether you're armed or may not be a determining factor.

But jump you? Take your gun (hammer)? These instances and repeated false scenarios about Open Carriers have not happened yet. In fact, I've seen more stories in the press about an Open Carriers thwarting incidents. Usually because the perpetrator did not have the situational awareness to see what they were getting into. So until there's an influx of "I got jumped and my gun taken while OCing" stories in the news and press, I would encourage people to ignore false hypothetical situations such as these, and stick with the facts.

KylaGWolf
07-27-2009, 10:25 PM
Someone said they are all for CCW shall issue. I think most of us are. Hell given the choice I would CCW in a heartbeat, next best is LOC but unfortunately the only option most have is UOC right now. Hell even though I have a documented assault on me by someone at my school (my attacker is not all there mentally) I doubt that would give me a "good cause". He was even found to be carrying a knife on campus and they didn't get rid of him.

jacques
07-27-2009, 11:25 PM
Not around here. No way. I don't want to spend the night in jail.

pullnshoot25
07-27-2009, 11:34 PM
+1.
I mentioned this "new" UOC trend to my father. His reply was that as a kid in the 50's, there was some old geek that always used to walk around the Grass Valley County Fair open carrying a cap and ball revolver. Even then, people were pointing and laughing at what kind of a fool would carry a holstered pistol around the fair.

The grasshopper laughed at the ants too. Guess who wasn't prepared in the end?

locosway
07-27-2009, 11:50 PM
I have to agree, even though when you UOC it's only seconds to get into battery.

Personally, I'm a big guy, I played sports and did a lot of martial arts when I was younger. I carry a knife (same one for 13 years), and people don't intimidate me, it's actually the other way around. So I'm not worried about being a 1 on 1 victim to a street crime. Actually, I'm worried about getting gas, groceries, or any other numerous things and having someone walk into the store with a gun. Chances are I'll have time to load my gun. Chances are he'll think I'm a cop or security and I'm loaded. Chances are he may walk away.

I'll take my chances having a gun that's easily loaded in seconds over a knife, unless I need to be quiet for some reason... :)

demnogis
07-28-2009, 1:16 PM
Not around here. No way. I don't want to spend the night in jail.

If you were following all the laws, how would you spend a night in jail? I've ridden through a DUI checkpoint and came out unscathed and helping the LEOs there get a better understanding of the law.

wildhawker
07-28-2009, 2:36 PM
The grasshopper laughed at the ants too. Guess who wasn't prepared in the end?

The ones without the can of Raid.

bodger
07-28-2009, 3:10 PM
If you were following all the laws, how would you spend a night in jail? I've ridden through a DUI checkpoint and came out unscathed and helping the LEOs there get a better understanding of the law.

Theseus was following all the laws too, wasn't he?
I'm asking, not being a wise guy.

I have three reasons why I don't UOC:

Arrest and conviction
Get shot by the cops in a "misunderstanding"
Lousy way to pack a gun for self defense.

Just my own opinion and reasons. But good enough for me to wait for Shall Issue or legal LOC.

Also, there are a number of CG members that are far more erudite than me on the legal issues, and they have stated that it's not the right battle at the right time and could denigrate other 2A issue efforts at the present time.

Based on the past progress these members have been responsible for, I'll take it as good advice to wait.

Ground Loop
07-28-2009, 4:01 PM
an unloaded gun is a fing hazard, here is why bag guy sees your empty mag well, and he is cocked locked and readied to go, your fed. just carry a hammer, a ball ping.

If I UOC'd, and I don't, I would keep an empty mag inserted. The cops will check it anyway.. bad guys have to guess. I'd train with it that way, practicing the eject as part of the draw and make ready.

Ground Loop
07-28-2009, 4:07 PM
I talked to one guy who illegally CC's whenever he wants to in SoCal. Not something he tells most people, of course. His argument was that:

A) He's not likely to be stopped or hassled. Never has in years.

B) It's cheaper (financially) to pay the fine/defense on a misdemeanor CC charge than go through a Theseus-like charade of exploring new case law.

C) Even if he gets caught, it's less likely to set back 2A rights in CA or be made an example of. Clean record, registered-to-him gun, upstanding community member, etc.

D) Carries everywhere (parks, schools, church, post office), since it's illegal anyway. :)

But his main point was Concealed means Concealed, and he'd take a fair fight over risking a draw. If his gun comes out, it's because he had no choice left at all. He's clearly accepted his own level of risk, more than I would, but I couldn't argue with his logic.

FastFinger
07-28-2009, 4:52 PM
But his main point was Concealed means Concealed, and he'd take a fair fight over risking a draw. If his gun comes out, it's because he had no choice left at all. He's clearly accepted his own level of risk, more than I would, but I couldn't argue with his logic.

What's the worst case scenario? Max fine, incarceration, future right to possess?

Ground Loop
07-28-2009, 5:02 PM
Good question. There's worst-case, and there's Typical Case. I'd be curious to know both.

Moreover, you have to factor it against the odds.. I see UOC as "pretty high odds" of getting harassed or mistakenly charged with something. So if you UOC for ten years, your chances of having to spend money defending are pretty high. Also consider accidental school-zone transgressions, and the cost there.

Compare to 10 years of illegal CC, the frequency and cost of arrest there.

I'm a law-abiding guy, but I have a hard time getting mad at someone whole illegally CCs.

Theseus
07-28-2009, 5:17 PM
What's the worst case scenario? Max fine, incarceration, future right to possess?
Ok, you ready of for the answer?

Concealed 1 year jail and/or $1000 fine
Loaded 1 year in jail and/or $1000 fine

These are the most severe cases I see under the PC for a violation of 12031 and 12025. Also, 12025 and 12031 are not prohibitive misdemeanors.

In a school zone that all changes. Either situation would make your charge a felony wobbler, both cases automatic felony with up to 5 years in prison and 10 year prohibition.

bodger
07-28-2009, 5:21 PM
I talked to one guy who illegally CC's whenever he wants to in SoCal. Not something he tells most people, of course. His argument was that:

A) He's not likely to be stopped or hassled. Never has in years.

B) It's cheaper (financially) to pay the fine/defense on a misdemeanor CC charge than go through a Theseus-like charade of exploring new case law.

C) Even if he gets caught, it's less likely to set back 2A rights in CA or be made an example of. Clean record, registered-to-him gun, upstanding community member, etc.

D) Carries everywhere (parks, schools, church, post office), since it's illegal anyway. :)

But his main point was Concealed means Concealed, and he'd take a fair fight over risking a draw. If his gun comes out, it's because he had no choice left at all. He's clearly accepted his own level of risk, more than I would, but I couldn't argue with his logic.

Gun does come out for self defense in a last resort scenario, couldn't one claim that it was being carried UOC to begin with and not get charged?

radioman
07-28-2009, 5:32 PM
Glock22fan a ball ping is a hammer flat on one side and a ball on the other.
has anyone ever stepped on to a crime to stop it, not you cop, army type guys. just plane work for a living guys. I have, I'm not a big man, 5'7, at the age of 22 I was 175lb and not an oz of fat. two times in my life I have had to do just that, both were rapes, the first time I was 28, and beat that fool so bad that to this day I don't thing he can get it up. the last I was 36, I found out latter the guy had more coke in he then one guy needs, I lost my front teeth that night, it ended with the woman pulling me off the guy as I was going kill him if she did not stop me. three years ago I got sick, I was down to 120 lb, I'm a bit better now at 145lb's but I'm also 52 years old and not as fast as I was. If I upset someone, I'm sorry.

PEBKAC
07-28-2009, 5:40 PM
Gun does come out for self defense in a last resort scenario, couldn't one claim that it was being carried UOC to begin with and not get charged?
This seems to be a possibility, though there are some issues with doing that. If your holster is designed for concealed carry (e.g. shoulder holster under a coat) it would be hard to claim that you had it unloaded and openly carried. However you might sufficiently muddy things if you have 2 holsters, one open, and one concealed. Put taser in open one, gun in concealed one. Swap them out before police pick you up and you may be able to claim that you were carrying the gun open/unloaded with the taser concealed as a backup.

IANAL, it's illegal to LCC w/o permit so don't do it, etc.

Glock22Fan
07-28-2009, 6:00 PM
Glock22fan a ball ping is a hammer flat on one side and a ball on the other.


I'm not the only person who hasn't heard of it.

example (http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f26/sounds-like-someone-hitting-my-floor-board-ball-ping-hammer-177699/index3.html)


Re: Sounds like someone is hitting my floor board with a ball ping hammer

------------------------------------------------------------

<quote=UNBROKEN?I gotta be the *** here. LOL
It's a ball peen hammer...not ball ping.
Sorry...I couldn't resist. LOL

Sorry to be an *** as well, it's ball pein hammer. The spelling police is now off duty!


Certainly, I call them ball peen hammers, but now I've researched I see that a lot of Americans have inventively renamed them.

In terms of Google references, the Ball Pein is on top, Ball Peen is close second and Ball Ping is way down.

Now, what's a bag guy? :D

radioman
07-28-2009, 6:09 PM
I'm not the only person who hasn't heard of it.

example (http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f26/sounds-like-someone-hitting-my-floor-board-ball-ping-hammer-177699/index3.html)




Certainly, I call them ball peen hammers, but now I've researched I see that a lot of Americans have inventively renamed them.

In terms of Google references, the Ball Pein is on top, Ball Peen is close second and Ball Ping is way down.

Now, what's a bag guy? :D

bad key stroke (bad guy) and your right I misspelled peen, thank you. and if you read post # 56 you will where I was coming from with my first post on this.