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woodey
07-24-2009, 6:40 PM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf

According to the ATF you can NOT designate a frame as a pistol or a rifle. How you build the frame the 1st. time is the ONLY factor. SO if you can get a frame into the state you can build a pistol on that frame.:eek:

hawk1
07-24-2009, 6:41 PM
The California state roster prevents us from getting frames. In theory, so far.

CSACANNONEER
07-24-2009, 6:44 PM
The California state roster prevents us from getting frames. In theory, so far.

But, since a stripped lower or other receiver can be transfered here...........???????????

woodey
07-24-2009, 7:00 PM
AR , AK, 10/22,FAL,CETME, you can get those all day long as far as I know. Look like good pistol build to me ?

hawk1
07-24-2009, 9:01 PM
But, since a stripped lower or other receiver can be transfered here...........???????????

If it is a stripped handgun lower then no. Unless it is a complete handgun and meets the single shot exemption prior to being dros'd

lorax3
07-24-2009, 9:10 PM
NRF's (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=136084) were the original idea. Then it went straight into attacking the roster (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=179227) itself.

CSACANNONEER
07-24-2009, 10:15 PM
If it is a stripped handgun lower then no. Unless it is a complete handgun and meets the single shot exemption prior to being dros'd

The way this letter reads to me, (on a federal level) it doesn't make a difference if the reciever is marked as a "pistol" or not. When an unmarked stripped receiver is sold, it is not yet considered a rifle or a pistol by ATF. Of course, my interpetation after a quick once over of this letter should not be considered by anyone to be accurate. I will say this, "DO NOT BUILD A STRIPPED LOWER INTO A HANDGUN UNLESS YOU PURCHASED IT AS A HANDGUN!" However, unless it is DROSed in this state as a handgun, I would not even consider building anything but a non-AW long gun on it unless you are legally authorized to build something else.

Jarhead4
07-24-2009, 11:00 PM
I have a question, if you have a parent that lives out of state and purchases an AR Pistol can they give/transfer it to me as long as it has a permanent attached magazine?

CSACANNONEER
07-24-2009, 11:06 PM
I have a question, if you have a parent that lives out of state and purchases an AR Pistol can they give/transfer it to me as long as it has a permanent attached magazine?

I'm not sure but, I think it needs to come into this state as a single shot. If you change it to a bolt or semi after that, it's fine though.

ke6guj
07-24-2009, 11:10 PM
Correct, ATF says that a "stripped" lower/reciever is not a pistol or a rifle, but is an "other". However, CA currently requires you to DROS it as a "long gun", since the Roster prevents you from DROSing a non-rostered firearm as a handgun, unless you are roster-exempt.

It is felt that the "long gun" DROS may taint the virgin status of the stripped lower as a rifle forever, and you might pick up an SBR charge somewhere down the line. ATF has stated that "long gun" does not equal rifle, so a pistol made from a long gun is not an SBR, but CADOJ's position is unclear.

ke6guj
07-24-2009, 11:12 PM
I have a question, if you have a parent that lives out of state and purchases an AR Pistol can they give/transfer it to me as long as it has a permanent attached magazine?

As long as it is not in AW configuration, which a 10-round fixed magazine, would do the trick, it is legal for them to do so, as long as you use a CA FFL to facilitate the intrafamily transfer.

I'm not sure but, I think it needs to come into this state as a single shot. If you change it to a bolt or semi after that, it's fine though.nope, doesn't have to be single-shot since intrafamily transfers are exempt from the roster :D , just needs to be otherwise CA-legal. So, no AWs.

Jarhead4
07-24-2009, 11:12 PM
I'm not sure but, I think it needs to come into this state as a single shot. If you change it to a bolt or semi after that, it's fine though.

I think that is if you want to avoid the roster. I thought the roster crap did not apply to father to son transfer.

Jarhead4
07-24-2009, 11:14 PM
As long as it is not in AW configuration, which a 10-round fixed magazine, would do the trick, it is legal for them to do so, as long as you use a CA FFL to facilitate the intrafamily transfer.

nope, doesn't have to be single-shot since intrafamily transfers are exempt from the roster :D , just needs to be otherwise CA-legal. So, no AWs.

I think I will have to take my mother shopping.

CSACANNONEER
07-24-2009, 11:16 PM
As long as it is not in AW configuration, which a 10-round fixed magazine, would do the trick, it is legal for them to do so, as long as you use a CA FFL to facilitate the intrafamily transfer.

nope, doesn't have to be single-shot since intrafamily transfers are exempt from the roster :D , just needs to be otherwise CA-legal. So, no AWs.

Thanks for correcting me. It's late for me and I didn't want to actually use the search function so, I erred on the side of caution.

Jarhead4
07-24-2009, 11:20 PM
Thanks for correcting me. It's late for me and I didn't want to actually use the search function so, I erred on the side of caution.


Better safe than sorry!!!;)

Jarhead4
07-24-2009, 11:22 PM
As long as it is not in AW configuration, which a 10-round fixed magazine, would do the trick, it is legal for them to do so, as long as you use a CA FFL to facilitate the intrafamily transfer.
.

So a stripped lower that is registered as a pistol is good to go then right?

ke6guj
07-24-2009, 11:29 PM
So a stripped lower that is registered as a pistol is good to go then right?

If you can get the FFL to DROS it as a pistol as a intrafamily roster-exempt transfer, then it should be. But, it may be more difficult to find an FFL willing to do so.

Jarhead4
07-24-2009, 11:36 PM
If you can get the FFL to DROS it as a pistol as a intrafamily roster-exempt transfer, then it should be. But, it may be more difficult to find an FFL willing to do so.

Details, details.:43:

It is just nice to know that there is a way.

Thanks!!!!

ke6guj
07-25-2009, 12:15 AM
details would be that your intrafamily relative could send a stripped receiver to your FFL with a note that it is a pistol receiver, not a rifle receiver. If your FFL properly logged it into his bound book as either a pistol or "receiver", he could then DROS it to you as a pistol, and enter in the proper roster exemption for the intrafamily transfer.

But if the FFL does not or is not willing to DROS it as a pistol, then it could be forever deemed a rifle in CA. So, sending in a complete CA-legal AR-pistol would eliminate the FFL's question on how to DROS a stripped receiver as a pistol. For something like this, I'd make sure my FFL was on the proper track before anything like that was shipped to him.

aplinker
07-25-2009, 2:42 AM
I still want to know how a DROS can qualify a receiver as a long gun for the purpose of building (I know no one has the answer - since the obvious one is it can't).

Again, I say we just start to PPT our receivers as pistols after the 6mos are up for the DROS records. Then they're registered as pistols.

details would be that your intrafamily relative could send a stripped receiver to your FFL with a note that it is a pistol receiver, not a rifle receiver. If your FFL properly logged it into his bound book as either a pistol or "receiver", he could then DROS it to you as a pistol, and enter in the proper roster exemption for the intrafamily transfer.

But if the FFL does not or is not willing to DROS it as a pistol, then it could be forever deemed a rifle in CA. So, sending in a complete CA-legal AR-pistol would eliminate the FFL's question on how to DROS a stripped receiver as a pistol. For something like this, I'd make sure my FFL was on the proper track before anything like that was shipped to him.

CHS
07-25-2009, 7:43 AM
Again, I say we just start to PPT our receivers as pistols after the 6mos are up for the DROS records. Then they're registered as pistols.

15 days, actually :)

And that is a FANTASTIC idea.

Hopi
07-25-2009, 7:49 AM
15 days, actually :)

And that is a FANTASTIC idea.

hmmmmmm......

woodey
07-25-2009, 2:15 PM
A few finer points. California DOJ is requiring California FFL's to Volate federal Law.
"A dealer must record in his/her aquisition & disposition record and on form 4473 the type of firearm as a "frame" or "receiver" { as applicable}. The dealer must also include in any record the make, model, and serial number of any receiver"

So really who cares how your FFL fill out his paper work.The Fed's have spoken & said " Its how you 1st configure the frame Not what you call it. Let your FFL call a frame a long gun & when you have it in your position. Write the California DOJ & Ask for the paper work mistake be corrected.

Sample letter.

Dear sir
I recently purchased an AR style lower receiver from ABC gun shop. According to your records the gun was incorrectly registered as a long gun. According to the ATF a frame/receiver can not be concidered eather a pistol or long gun until first assembled. I have chosen to build this frame as a pistol & would like this fact to be reflected in your records.
Thanks Woodey

Its a federal law anyway & the Feds have spoken :eek:

ke6guj
07-25-2009, 2:23 PM
A few finer points. California DOJ is requiring California FFL's to Volate federal Law.
"A dealer must record in his/her aquisition & disposition record and on form 4473 the type of firearm as a "frame" or "receiver" { as applicable}. The dealer must also include in any record the make, model, and serial number of any receiver"

So really who cares how your FFL fill out his paper work.The Fed's have spoken & said " Its how you 1st configure the frame Not what you call it. Let your FFL call a frame a long gun & when you have it in your position. Write the California DOJ & Ask for the paper work mistake be corrected.

I don't see where CADOJ has required CA FFLs to violate federal law. Have they told the FFLs that they must 4473 it as a long gun instead of an "Other". Is the fact that it might be DROSed as a long gun while simultaniously being 4473 as an Other violate federal law?


The question we have is "does a DROS as a long gun forever taint the receiver as a long gun, specifically a rifle or shotgun?"

woodey
07-25-2009, 2:36 PM
[QUOTE
The question we have is "does a DROS as a long gun forever taint the receiver as a long gun, specifically a rifle or shotgun?"[/QUOTE]

Answer} No. So say the ATF.

Still doesn't matter what you call it, how you log it, or what is ingraved on the side of it. It ONLY is determind after you first build a firearm out of it. That is my whole point what the DROS is calling it is meaningless. The Cal. DOJ needs a new box on there form for FRAME/RECEIVER.

CHS
07-25-2009, 3:35 PM
Still doesn't matter what you call it, how you log it, or what is ingraved on the side of it. It ONLY is determind after you first build a firearm out of it. That is my whole point what the DROS is calling it is meaningless. The Cal. DOJ needs a new box on there form for FRAME/RECEIVER.

But then they would have to admit that AR receivers are not rifles and 1911 frames are not handguns :)

They don't want to do that.

CHS
07-25-2009, 3:38 PM
A few finer points. California DOJ is requiring California FFL's to Volate federal Law.
"A dealer must record in his/her aquisition & disposition record and on form 4473 the type of firearm as a "frame" or "receiver" { as applicable}. The dealer must also include in any record the make, model, and serial number of any receiver"


When I update our acquisition/disposition record, I book receivers as receivers and nothing more.

When I sell a receiver to a customer, it is recorded on the 4473 as "other" and type "receiver".

The difference is when it comes to DROS'ing. There is no way to accurately DROS a receiver or frame. You have two choices, long gun or handgun. Receivers as a general rule are always DROS'ed as long guns because it would be otherwise a huge pain in the ***** trying to DROS them as handguns. It can be done (I did one a couple days ago), but it eats up a lot of time.

Besides, if you DROS it that way then the receiver becomes registered.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. CA is not violating Federal law or mandate. All the things that I need to do as an employee of a dealer to log receivers in accordance with all federal laws is done right and legally.

The Fed's don't care what the DROS paperwork looks like.

ke6guj
07-25-2009, 3:41 PM
+1 on what bdsmchs said.

Woodey, the issue is, would CA charge you for building an SBR, under CA law, for building an AR-pistol out of a receiver that was DROSed as a long gun? Until we know the answer to that, The Right People do not recommend building pistols out of "long gun" DROSed receivers.