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View Full Version : Can you have an underground shooting lane on your property?


kalguns
07-23-2009, 4:12 PM
I live in Orange County. Does any one know if there would be any laws that would restrict me from building a underground shooting lane in my backyard?
:shrug:

technique
07-23-2009, 4:14 PM
tag!

tpirman
07-23-2009, 4:16 PM
Ha! I have wondered this same thing many times. I am curious to see what people smarter than myself say.

Glock22Fan
07-23-2009, 4:21 PM
Whether there's any laws or not, you would be well advised to be VERY careful on the ventilation issue. However, ventilation brings the likelyhood of noise escape, which could upset the neighbors (if they are too close).

Also, if your laws are similar to ours, you would need a permit for the excavation and any landfill. Drainage and slippage might also be an issue.

If you apply for a permit, you might wish to make your excavation for an underground workshop/storage area. You could always convert it afterwards.

If you don't apply for a permit, learn from us. We got into planning hot water for an excavation that was done without permit by a previous occupant, and then spotted by Building and Safety after we bought the property. Cost us nearly $30K and five years to sort it out.

Corbin Dallas
07-23-2009, 4:25 PM
I live in Orange County. Does any one know if there would be any laws that would restrict me from building a underground shooting lane in my backyard?
:shrug:

I don't know of any laws, but by no means am I an expert.

I suppose you could bury a container in your back yard and line it with sound proofing, vent the fumes to the outside and pipe in electricity so you could see. But most containers are only 40' long. Just enough for a 15 yard lane.

The only things I could think of are:

1 - Lead trap at the end. How would you mine it out?
2 - EPA concerns. Lead in the ground
3 - If the EPA gets involved, do you need a permit to build? (or bury in this case)
4 - Safety! Will you have a quick exit?


I've heard of people who have indoor ranges in their basement that extend 50-100' past the foundation walls, but I don't know how they did it.

Let us know what you find!

ke6guj
07-23-2009, 4:29 PM
I've heard of people who have indoor ranges in their basement that extend 50-100' past the foundation walls, but I don't know how they did it.


A hole in the foundation wall with drainage culverts running underground.

CAL.BAR
07-23-2009, 4:30 PM
This has kind of been talked about ad nauseam in previous posts. The short answer is yes, (I'm told there are a few mansions around with them) as long as you have several hundred thousand dollars to solve the problem. First you need a VERY large (25 yd+ long) house for the basement (or 25 yards of land) Then you need ventilation, soundproofing and backstop. (On Target in Lag. Niguel) says it cost about 75 thousand per lane to outfit (FWIW)

Then, if you are doing this above boards, you will have to get the licensure and permits from the city and county to operate a shooting range. Then we'll talk about the one million dollar insurance policy (and those premiums)

So, start gathering those few things first. . . then we can talk seriously.

Glock22Fan
07-23-2009, 4:35 PM
This has kind of been talked about ad nauseam in previous posts. The short answer is yes, (I'm told there are a few mansions around with them) as long as you have several hundred thousand dollars to solve the problem. First you need a VERY large (25 yd+ long) house for the basement (or 25 yards of land) Then you need ventilation, soundproofing and backstop. (On Target in Lag. Niguel) says it cost about 75 thousand per lane to outfit (FWIW)

Then, if you are doing this above boards, you will have to get the licensure and permits from the city and county to operate a shooting range. Then we'll talk about the one million dollar insurance policy (and those premiums)

So, start gathering those few things first. . . then we can talk seriously.


It was my impression that the OP intended a private range for his private use and purposes. Therefore some of the licenses, permits and insurance would surely not be mandatory?

CAL.BAR
07-23-2009, 4:41 PM
It was my impression that the OP intended a private range for his private use and purposes. Therefore some of the licenses, permits and insurance would surely not be mandatory?

There is a law against the discharge of a firearm in the city limits unless at a recognized range so. . . just b/c you own the house doesn't mean you can discharge firearms on the property.

RE: ins. if you (or a guest) were ever injured on your "range" or a fire started down there, or you had water seepage, subsidence etc, your homeowners ins. will not cover you.

IGOTDIRT4U
07-23-2009, 4:42 PM
IIRC, you need a conditional use permit. I know someone that has researched this and it is possible, but not always practical.

BONECUTTER
07-23-2009, 4:43 PM
There is a house down in San Juan Capistrano that has a firing lane (just one) in the basement. My buddy does high end real estate and took me to see it. That was a few years ago but Im sure its still there.

fd15k
07-23-2009, 4:51 PM
Shooting lead-free ammo would solve EPA and lead-recycling issues ;)

Glock22Fan
07-23-2009, 4:52 PM
There is a law against the discharge of a firearm in the city limits unless at a recognized range so. . . just b/c you own the house doesn't mean you can discharge firearms on the property.


Of course. Is he within the city limits?


RE: ins. if you (or a guest) were ever injured on your "range" or a fire started down there, or you had water seepage, subsidence etc, your homeowners ins. will not cover you.

Of course, but you were talking the kind of insurance and permits more appropriate to commercial use.

IGOTDIRT4U
07-23-2009, 5:05 PM
Of course. Is he within the city limits?



Of course, but you were talking the kind of insurance and permits more appropriate to commercial use.

Hence the need for the conditional use permits as to #1, and for #2, all you need to do is get additional coverage through your homeowners carrier, or in the alternative, a specialty carrier. It is not generally covered, but their are mechanisms that allow you to get the extra coverage.

Seesm
07-23-2009, 5:14 PM
I have thought about doing qty 2 (40 foot) containers end to end and doing this on my land.... Very cool idea for when it is raining for sure.

HowardW56
07-23-2009, 5:15 PM
I live in Orange County. Does any one know if there would be any laws that would restrict me from building a underground shooting lane in my backyard?
:shrug:

There are several in Beverly Hills and Bel Air....


ALl were constructed as bowling lanes... :)

Table Rock Arms
07-23-2009, 8:35 PM
I imagine you can do anything you want on your property. Problem is you might find out that your property is not actually yours. In which case you are free to do as your told.

bombadillo
07-23-2009, 8:40 PM
Good luck, wouldn't a 10 year range membership be a whole lot cheaper than attempting something like this??? :confused:

berto
07-23-2009, 9:12 PM
Good luck, wouldn't a 10 year range membership be a whole lot cheaper than attempting something like this??? :confused:
No doubt cheaper but much less convenient or fun.

I'd love a range under my yard but as you note the cost is too high. I doubt I'd get approved even if I could afford it.

HondaMasterTech
07-23-2009, 9:15 PM
Good luck, wouldn't a 10 year range membership be a whole lot cheaper than attempting something like this??? :confused:

Never found a range that let me shoot fruit.

leitung
07-23-2009, 9:31 PM
With the amount of money that you would probably spend, you could go buy a house in the boonies and setup a range there.

Thats my plan anyway, but a huge hunk of Montana that backs up to BLM land and setup my range.

Mstrty
07-23-2009, 9:41 PM
I helped construct one in 98, 99 on a 30 acre estate in No. California. It was permitted as a Y2K bunker knowing the county wasnt going to go for a firing range. It is situated separate from the house. it is 75' wide 150' long totally underground with a 20x20 vault in one corner of the room. It is 8' below grade with the small trees and shrubs replanted after the 10" concrete pan was poured and dirt once removed was replaced. It is situated 35' next to the house with all of the HVAC Ground pumps, electrical and plumbing being ran alongside a tunnel from the house basement to the bunker. a 3/4 steel plate was lowered into the room for a future backstop before the lid was poured. Totally waterproof and totally silent. If you werent part of the construction you would never know it it there. All ventilation intake, exhaust, utilities lead back to the houses basement. It was a cool project to be a part of. The best part is the county has no idea the real intentions of the bunker. It is owned by a Silicon Valley Guru that lives in the Sierra Foothill and flies back and forth to work. I got some great Ideas for the one I want to build one day. Money willing. He spent about 300K+ on this one. For all I know he sold it after the Dot Com Bust. I last saw it it was 90% finished. Never got to shoot in it either. Unreal to be sub-teranium with no egresses or outside light.

7x57
07-23-2009, 9:41 PM
Never found a range that let me shoot fruit.

Private range at Burro Canyon.

7x57

CSACANNONEER
07-23-2009, 9:49 PM
It was my impression that the OP intended a private range for his private use and purposes. Therefore some of the licenses, permits and insurance would surely not be mandatory?

You wanna make a bet on that? You would need building permits first. Applying for building permits would trigger a whole bunch of questions from your local agencies. Then, assuming you actually get engineered plans approved, a permit and the thing built to code, you would be a fool not to get a special rider on your homeowners insurance policy.

tiko
07-23-2009, 9:51 PM
My friend thought about this but then it was too expensive to proceed, eventually he bought 400 acres at Tehachapi for 200k, he can shoot overthere.

Curtis
07-23-2009, 9:59 PM
I have worked on several O.C. homes that had underground or basement ranges.

gotgunz
07-23-2009, 10:01 PM
You wouldn't be discharging a firearm in the city limits; only under them.

motorhead
07-24-2009, 12:32 AM
why not do it and keep it secret?
my old shop had an indoor range set up. we shot at night when the other businesses were closed. i'm sure it wasn't legal. it was ok with the business owner (me). use common sense and discretion. i'm not real fond of laws anyway. i try to break at least one daily. more if possible.

383green
07-24-2009, 12:51 AM
Regarding the idea of burying sea containers: From what I've read, this isn't as easy as it sounds. Sea containers have strong frames which can support a lot of weight at their corners (i.e., when a bunch of them are stacked up on a container ship), but their walls and ceiling are fairly thin sheet metal which is likely to collapse under a distributed load of soil.

One person on another list I used to be on mentioned that he successfully buried sea containers as Y2K shelters by laying railroad ties across the tops in order to spread the soil load across to the containers' frames. I'd think that there would still be risk of the walls collapsing, though.

I've contemplated that it might be possible to use a sea container as a left-in-place form for pouring concrete around if the concrete was poured a little at a time and allowed to cure between pours, in order to limit the height of the column of liquid concrete bearing against the container walls at any given time. I don't know enough civil engineering to calculate whether this would actually work safely, though.

Given the need to reinforce the walls and ceiling of sea containers before burying them, I wonder whether they'd end up being any cheaper or easier to use for underground structures than other options like precast concrete culverts (either round or rectangular in cross section), cinderblock structures, insulating concrete forms, etc.

Another drawback of sea containers as the structure of a shooting range is that I think the corrugated walls and ceiling would need to be covered with baffles to prevent dangerous ricochets, while precast concrete culverts would be smooth enough to not require them.

Gunaria
07-24-2009, 1:22 AM
If your property is within the city limits, is discharging a firearm underground still considered within city limits? Might have to go through a lot of zoning hoops.

wildhawker
07-24-2009, 1:41 AM
Precast vaults and RCP segments (products engineered and built to withstand conditions underground) are lightyears safer than buried cargo containers (designed and built as an above-ground storage commodity item) and less expensive than properly reinforcing one for underground use (or using one as a lost form). If you wanted to, one could use a smaller RCP (say, 24") for the lane to save some money. Another area for cost savings is the lane material itself; depending on availability it might be worthwhile to price alternative PVC or CMP products and concrete backfill. The smaller lane diameter would decrease the necessary displaced excavation to a very reasonable level, and if you don't take the MH deep and neck it up, the ex depth wouldn't be too bad either. The smaller dia does limit the height range of shooters/stance unless you get creative with adjustable shooting platforms.

Plumb in power & lighting, ventilation and switched sump pumps, anchor the target system in place and place backstop material in the downrange vault.

A cut-cover cast-in-place tunnel would allow for most options for construction and may be easier to make "comfortable", but I've built and installed some pretty large precast products that a family could easily live in; the precast segments and vaults are by FAR more cost-effective.

And hey, my property has some interesting terrain and geology. I'm just building one HELL of a residential french drain and pump station.

Regarding the idea of burying sea containers: From what I've read, this isn't as easy as it sounds. Sea containers have strong frames which can support a lot of weight at their corners (i.e., when a bunch of them are stacked up on a container ship), but their walls and ceiling are fairly thin sheet metal which is likely to collapse under a distributed load of soil.

One person on another list I used to be on mentioned that he successfully buried sea containers as Y2K shelters by laying railroad ties across the tops in order to spread the soil load across to the containers' frames. I'd think that there would still be risk of the walls collapsing, though.

I've contemplated that it might be possible to use a sea container as a left-in-place form for pouring concrete around if the concrete was poured a little at a time and allowed to cure between pours, in order to limit the height of the column of liquid concrete bearing against the container walls at any given time. I don't know enough civil engineering to calculate whether this would actually work safely, though.

Given the need to reinforce the walls and ceiling of sea containers before burying them, I wonder whether they'd end up being any cheaper or easier to use for underground structures than other options like precast concrete culverts (either round or rectangular in cross section), cinderblock structures, insulating concrete forms, etc.

Another drawback of sea containers as the structure of a shooting range is that I think the corrugated walls and ceiling would need to be covered with baffles to prevent dangerous ricochets, while precast concrete culverts would be smooth enough to not require them.

artherd
07-24-2009, 2:08 AM
Technically, a tunnel is not within the City-Limits!

The Division of Mining and Tunneling (CA State, DIR, CAL OSHA) regulates all tunneling operations including permitting. (the municipality does generally have jurisdiction over the openings and will make you engineer them.)

A cut and cover excavation however, would be within the local municipality's purview to regulate.

Cost is in the hundreds of thousands for any kind of residential sequentially excavated and reinforced tunnel, so the old 'if you have to ask' adage applies.

http://www.nordbywinecaves.com/images/gallery/Complete/Porter%20Family%20Winery/Porter%20Family%20Winery%20Wine%20Cave%20Early%20C onstruction.jpg

http://www.nordbywinecaves.com/images/gallery/Complete/Porter%20Family%20Winery/Porter%20Family%20Winery%20Wine%20Cave%20Construct ion.jpg

gotgunz
07-24-2009, 2:25 AM
No, I doubt any municipality planned that ordinance to cover anywhere but above ground.

wildhawker
07-24-2009, 2:57 AM
Good points; let's not forget MSHA.

Even the construction of cut and cover can get sticky when human entry/occupation are involved.

A precast system should get you out the door in the low tens of thousands; not cheap, but do-able for many with some property. Major factor is export costs, especially here in the Bay.

Technically, a tunnel is not within the City-Limits!

The Division of Mining and Tunneling (CA State, DIR, CAL OSHA) regulates all tunneling operations including permitting. (the municipality does generally have jurisdiction over the openings and will make you engineer them.)

A cut and cover excavation however, would be within the local municipality's purview to regulate.

Cost is in the hundreds of thousands for any kind of residential sequentially excavated and reinforced tunnel, so the old 'if you have to ask' adage applies.

http://www.nordbywinecaves.com/images/gallery/Complete/Porter%20Family%20Winery/Porter%20Family%20Winery%20Wine%20Cave%20Early%20C onstruction.jpg

http://www.nordbywinecaves.com/images/gallery/Complete/Porter%20Family%20Winery/Porter%20Family%20Winery%20Wine%20Cave%20Construct ion.jpg

wildhawker
07-24-2009, 2:59 AM
No, I doubt any municipality planned that ordinance to cover anywhere but above ground.

If one fired off a mag or two in an underground basement, do you not think they'd be in for some drama?

YubaRiver
07-24-2009, 8:17 AM
My granddad had one in his house in Miles City, MT.
It ran from the basement to the garage which was 50 feet or so away
and was covered by the sidewalk between the two buildings.

He was a gunsmith. I used to go down there to shoot BB guns. He used it
for 22 practice mostly.

383green
07-24-2009, 8:56 AM
If you wanted to, one could use a smaller RCP (say, 24") for the lane to save some money. Another area for cost savings is the lane material itself; depending on availability it might be worthwhile to price alternative PVC or CMP products and concrete backfill. The smaller lane diameter would decrease the necessary displaced excavation to a very reasonable level, and if you don't take the MH deep and neck it up, the ex depth wouldn't be too bad either. The smaller dia does limit the height range of shooters/stance unless you get creative with adjustable shooting platforms.


That's an interesting idea: A narrow shooting lane centered at eye level (24" seems a bit small to me, but 36" might work), with a vault at one end for the shooter. There would probably need to be some means of plumbing in a pipe or duct for an exhaust fan downrange of the shooter.

I don't understand what you meant by "MH".

Do you know how much a section of 36" RCP weighs, and roughly how much it would cost? I'm presuming that it would come in roughly 8' sections to fit sideways on a normal flatbed semitrailer. I wonder whether my mil-surplus 5-ton 6x6 wrecker could lift these sections and swing them around. I have a Bobcat, too. And 5 acres of dirt. ;)

I think it would be nice to have a backstop that can handle rifle rounds to allow rifles to be at least fired to test functionality, though an outdoor range trip would still be necessary for proper sighting in. A reloader could even chrono test loads at home near the reloading equipment. Maybe a granulated rubber backstop could be made from a bunch of crumb rubber filling the RCP at the end of the lane.

For lighting, with such a narrow lane it may be good enough to spotlight the target from the uprange end of the lane and avoid running electricity downrange, baffling lights there, etc. Maybe ring the RCP opening with some Surefire LED light heads powered from an AC-powered supply, so there would be plenty of light on the target but the lighting equipment would be very low-profile.

Naw, I haven't thought about this idea at all before. :43:

motorhead
07-24-2009, 9:13 AM
just for reference, cup's are running around $5K in san diego. the caveat is that spending the money doesn't guaruntee a permit. you also have to notify all your neighbors and they have input.
much easier to just do it in secret.

FastFinger
07-24-2009, 9:25 AM
I helped construct one in 98, 99...it is 75' wide 150' long totally underground with a 20x20 vault in one corner of the room. It is 8' below grade ...

Was that 75 feet wide by 120 feet long? Wow - that must have been some interesting project!

I've always thought that precast drainage tunnel would be the way to go. Either that or use the "Great Escape" method. I can just imagine dropping a few tons of dirt down my pant legs at the local Von's, the produce area would be appropriate.

383green
07-24-2009, 9:28 AM
Either that or use the "Great Escape" method. I can just imagine dropping a few tons of dirt down my pant legs at the local Von's, the produce area would be appropriate.


The local city hall might be even more appropriate. :D

1923mack
07-24-2009, 10:37 AM
It is not legal in most cities to shoot within the city limits. That is why you will build a storage area, Bomb shelter, or some other named structure. Once final inspection is performed on your "storage area" you may do as you wish. You will not get insurance for a firing range because you do not have one. You will not tell anyone about it because it is illegal to discharge firearms within the city limits. You need to be very quiet about what you have. Your after the fact modification of the "storage area " is marginally legal, your discharging of a handgun within city limits will always be against the law, but since it is your private property you may elect to do as you wish.

wildhawker
07-24-2009, 10:58 AM
Sorry for the confusing term, I got lazy when my eyelids started to get heavy :) MH is short for manhole.

One could very easily add a fan in reverse to the backstop vault; with a positive pressure fan in the shooter's vault, you could probably have enough airflow to affect the trajectory ;)

36" is pretty heavy; 8' single bell sections run ~5500lb. I haven't installed any that large in a while, but there is a price jump from 24" to 36" (and transportation starts to hurt). A decent backhoe (Case 590 range) can still maneuver them, but a 10-14k boom would make life a lot easier.

There's a manufacturer out there that pre-fabs LED strips (some flexible) for lighting as you mentioned, used often embedded in light-rail stations and other similar applications. I'll see what I can dig up if you're interested. Running power from one vault to another is along the lines of $100-200 cost, so in terms of the project a non-factor.

I have some friends in the precast industry here in CA (Fontana/Ontario and here in Central/Norcal); if you need a big french drain PM me ;)

That's an interesting idea: A narrow shooting lane centered at eye level (24" seems a bit small to me, but 36" might work), with a vault at one end for the shooter. There would probably need to be some means of plumbing in a pipe or duct for an exhaust fan downrange of the shooter.

I don't understand what you meant by "MH".

Do you know how much a section of 36" RCP weighs, and roughly how much it would cost? I'm presuming that it would come in roughly 8' sections to fit sideways on a normal flatbed semitrailer. I wonder whether my mil-surplus 5-ton 6x6 wrecker could lift these sections and swing them around. I have a Bobcat, too. And 5 acres of dirt. ;)

I think it would be nice to have a backstop that can handle rifle rounds to allow rifles to be at least fired to test functionality, though an outdoor range trip would still be necessary for proper sighting in. A reloader could even chrono test loads at home near the reloading equipment. Maybe a granulated rubber backstop could be made from a bunch of crumb rubber filling the RCP at the end of the lane.

For lighting, with such a narrow lane it may be good enough to spotlight the target from the uprange end of the lane and avoid running electricity downrange, baffling lights there, etc. Maybe ring the RCP opening with some Surefire LED light heads powered from an AC-powered supply, so there would be plenty of light on the target but the lighting equipment would be very low-profile.

Naw, I haven't thought about this idea at all before. :43:

Lancear15
07-24-2009, 11:22 AM
Technically, a tunnel is not within the City-Limits!

The Division of Mining and Tunneling (CA State, DIR, CAL OSHA) regulates all tunneling operations including permitting. (the municipality does generally have jurisdiction over the openings and will make you engineer them.)

A cut and cover excavation however, would be within the local municipality's purview to regulate.

Cost is in the hundreds of thousands for any kind of residential sequentially excavated and reinforced tunnel, so the old 'if you have to ask' adage applies.

http://www.nordbywinecaves.com/images/gallery/Complete/Porter%20Family%20Winery/Porter%20Family%20Winery%20Wine%20Cave%20Early%20C onstruction.jpg

http://www.nordbywinecaves.com/images/gallery/Complete/Porter%20Family%20Winery/Porter%20Family%20Winery%20Wine%20Cave%20Construct ion.jpg

The machine pictured is called a road header I have worked on them before. I work mostly on EPB tunnel boring machines. Road headers only work in hard rock, which it is unlikely at best you live on top of hard rock.As the machine advances ground support must be installed, in the pictures case it is shotcrete(which is concrete with fibers usually steel shot onto the wall)

If you live on soft ground the only options are going to be pipe jacking or tunnel boring machines. Cost per a mile of this type of tunneling is astronomical.

Open cut is going to be your cheapest option but still will be highly expensive. Cutting all corners you would be lucky to get a 6' x 50 range built for under 100K and it would be not be anything fancy.

hardway
07-24-2009, 11:28 AM
You could do 48" ABS real cheap. Especially if one end was your basement. Then use a 4'x4' precast vualt with manhole on the down range end with a piece of flat plate steel for a trap. You would only need an overhead light in the vualt above the target to see. The "ABS" is a heavy corrugated plastic drainage pipe that is used regularly on large earth moving construction jobs. With the slowdown in that type of costruction, I bet you could call some companies that do that type of work and land some used stuff. Even if you needed a vualt at both ends, I bet you could do it all in a weekend with a backhoe for under $5000.

Lancear15
07-24-2009, 11:39 AM
You could do 48" ABS real cheap. Especially if one end was your basement. Then use a 4'x4' precast vualt with manhole on the down range end with a piece of flat plate steel for a trap. You would only need an overhead light in the vualt above the target to see. The "ABS" is a heavy corrugated plastic drainage pipe that is used regularly on large earth moving construction jobs. With the slowdown in that type of costruction, I bet you could call some companies that do that type of work and land some used stuff. Even if you needed a vualt at both ends, I bet you could do it all in a weekend with a backhoe for under $5000.

A vault alone that you can stand in or comfortably shoot in would be well over $5,000 its self. For clarification we are talking about utility vaults... and then there is the whole issue, every vault I have ever seen has crazy moisture and spider issues.

BTW 4'x4' vaults are not actually 4'x4' inside so that pipe is not going to fit in it. An 8' x 8' would be minimum and would still not be kosher structurally when you cut a 4' I.D. hole in the side.

CAL.BAR
07-24-2009, 1:56 PM
You wouldn't be discharging a firearm in the city limits; only under them.

Tell it to the judge pal!

CAL.BAR
07-24-2009, 1:58 PM
It is not legal in most cities to shoot within the city limits. That is why you will build a storage area, Bomb shelter, or some other named structure. Once final inspection is performed on your "storage area" you may do as you wish. You will not get insurance for a firing range because you do not have one. You will not tell anyone about it because it is illegal to discharge firearms within the city limits. You need to be very quiet about what you have. Your after the fact modification of the "storage area " is marginally legal, your discharging of a handgun within city limits will always be against the law, but since it is your private property you may elect to do as you wish.

Sure running red lights and beating my wife are legal too so long as I don't get caught. While you're at it throw a few grow lamps down there and start a pot farm. That's legal too (as long as you don't get caught.

Please. . .

spddrcr
07-24-2009, 3:29 PM
Sure running red lights and beating my wife are legal too so long as I don't get caught. While you're at it throw a few grow lamps down there and start a pot farm. That's legal too (as long as you don't get caught.

Please. . .

actually it is legal in some places even if you do get caught:laugh:

ZRX61
07-24-2009, 7:42 PM
First, you build an indoor/underground *bowling alley* ;)

1923mack
07-24-2009, 8:43 PM
Bowling alley is a good size. Unfortunately your building permit inspector would expect to see all the stuff for a bowling alley, wood floors, gutters etcetera. An open cut structure is the best way to go. Block walls, precast sections, poured concrete walls all are viable options. Ones experience and knowledge would be a key factor here. A backhoe from the local rental yard will dig the excavation in one day. Even one who has not used a backhoe will get the hang of it pretty quickly. pour a concrete slab, do the walls, concrete roof, interior work, backfill and all ready. If you hire our all the work you could probably spend $100,000. If you and friends and kids do most of the work, renting equipment as necessary you should be able to beat $100,000 by a bit. It is your property do with it as you wish. Don't let nay sayers sway you.

artherd
07-24-2009, 9:02 PM
You do know that OSHA regs require excavations over 5' to be stabilized right?

THe fines for screwing that up are in the $hundreds of thousands by themselves. People die when these go wrong, this is not something to mess around at the rental yard with...

packnrat
07-24-2009, 9:40 PM
I have know of people that have large drain pipes in there yards...well in truth under the dirt.

coop44
07-24-2009, 9:49 PM
Regarding the idea of burying sea containers: From what I've read, this isn't as easy as it sounds. Sea containers have strong frames which can support a lot of weight at their corners (i.e., when a bunch of them are stacked up on a container ship), but their walls and ceiling are fairly thin sheet metal which is likely to collapse under a distributed load of soil.

One person on another list I used to be on mentioned that he successfully buried sea containers as Y2K shelters by laying railroad ties across the tops in order to spread the soil load across to the containers' frames. I'd think that there would still be risk of the walls collapsing, though.

I've contemplated that it might be possible to use a sea container as a left-in-place form for pouring concrete around if the concrete was poured a little at a time and allowed to cure between pours, in order to limit the height of the column of liquid concrete bearing against the container walls at any given time. I don't know enough civil engineering to calculate whether this would actually work safely, though.

Given the need to reinforce the walls and ceiling of sea containers before burying them, I wonder whether they'd end up being any cheaper or easier to use for underground structures than other options like precast concrete culverts (either round or rectangular in cross section), cinderblock structures, insulating concrete forms, etc.

Another drawback of sea containers as the structure of a shooting range is that I think the corrugated walls and ceiling would need to be covered with baffles to prevent dangerous ricochets, while precast concrete culverts would be smooth enough to not require them.

if it was properly braced on the inside and the frame of the container was connected to the rebar there would be no reason not to bury it in one monolithic pour. Be prepared to buy a lot of lumber. A single pour is goingto be stronger than doing it in lifts, also drainage may be a concern and have to be planned for. But there is nothing difficult or mysterious about it, it just takes money. the concrete and rebar will support itself, once cured and with the bracing removed

wildhawker
07-24-2009, 10:10 PM
A vault alone that you can stand in or comfortably shoot in would be well over $5,000 its self. For clarification we are talking about utility vaults... and then there is the whole issue, every vault I have ever seen has crazy moisture and spider issues.

BTW 4'x4' vaults are not actually 4'x4' inside so that pipe is not going to fit in it. An 8' x 8' would be minimum and would still not be kosher structurally when you cut a 4' I.D. hole in the side.

Firstly, yes, ~$5k/ea is a fair estimate for rough numbers. I did say tens of thousands, and I think my concept would meet that cost criteria.

It is not an issue to structurally reinforce the precast vault to allow for large dia connection. Such a modification would be negligible in cost to the consumer.

Precast products can be fairly easily made into environments capable of human and electronic occupation.

Ben makes a good point w/r/t soil stabilization. Even excavations under 5' can be deadly or cause serious injury. This would not be a DIY for anyone without underground experience, but could be managed by someone fairly reasonably.

http://www.gsuc.net/MVC-004S.JPG
http://www.gsuc.net/MVC-031S.JPG
http://www.gsuc.net/Copy%20of%20MVC-016S.JPG

ETA: these photos are not representative of the size vault I envisioned in my above posts, but are shown to more clearly illustrate the concept.

wildhawker
07-24-2009, 10:17 PM
if it was properly braced on the inside and the frame of the container was connected to the rebar there would be no reason not to bury it in one monolithic pour. Be prepared to buy a lot of lumber. A single pour is goingto be stronger than doing it in lifts, also drainage may be a concern and have to be planned for. But there is nothing difficult or mysterious about it, it just takes money. the concrete and rebar will support itself, once cured and with the bracing removed

It will, if the design incorporates appropriate reinforcement and is planned accordingly- simply the addition of rebar does not a bridge make. Also, all structural steel should be encased in the pour, and any exposed steel (or that at construction joints, planned or otherwise) should be galvanized or epoxy coated. These factors make precast cheaper, simpler, easier and more likely to produce a quality end product (especially for those without experience).

1923mack
07-25-2009, 9:36 AM
Excavations over 5 feet can be sloped or shored. Type B soil can be sloped at 1:1, type C soil can be sloped at 1.5:1. Trench shield or Z shores will be expensive. One can follow the OSHA minimum regulations or have an engineer design a specific system for you. Less than 20 feet in depth does not require an engineer. The excavation is the easy part of this storage area construction!

coop44
07-26-2009, 2:52 PM
It will, if the design incorporates appropriate reinforcement and is planned accordingly- simply the addition of rebar does not a bridge make. Also, all structural steel should be encased in the pour, and any exposed steel (or that at construction joints, planned or otherwise) should be galvanized or epoxy coated. These factors make precast cheaper, simpler, easier and more likely to produce a quality end product (especially for those without experience).

brandon went into detail, I was just trying to address the "crush issue", My point is that from a construction point of view there is nothing keeping a shipping container from being used as an inner shell. As far as costs go, poured in place versus precast. Pretensioning and mix strength also comes into play. there are very many variables. but spanning 8 or 10 feet is no great engineering challenge and that indeed is the only challenge in building a concrete box. I have been involved in the placement of many thousands of yards of concrete and know through experience what a simple task this is.

wildhawker
07-26-2009, 4:26 PM
Excavations over 5 feet can be sloped or shored. Type B soil can be sloped at 1:1, type C soil can be sloped at 1.5:1. Trench shield or Z shores will be expensive. One can follow the OSHA minimum regulations or have an engineer design a specific system for you. Less than 20 feet in depth does not require an engineer. The excavation is the easy part of this storage area construction!

Don't take this wrong, but if you think the excavation is the 'easy part' for an unskilled homeowner you really shouldn't be giving this kind of advice.

wildhawker
07-26-2009, 4:31 PM
Fair enough Coop. And you're right in the fact that it could be used as a form, but for the ~$2000 box plus boom time for set that money could be more effectively used in a precast product or cast-in-place design. I didn't bring up pre or post-tentioning since they are beyond the scope I would consider for a DIY-type of installation. Spanning 8-10 feet (plus whatever length) can be a serious consideration if not an engineering challenge depending on other factors (depth, geology, deck design, etc.).

brandon went into detail, I was just trying to address the "crush issue", My point is that from a construction point of view there is nothing keeping a shipping container from being used as an inner shell. As far as costs go, poured in place versus precast. Pretensioning and mix strength also comes into play. there are very many variables. but spanning 8 or 10 feet is no great engineering challenge and that indeed is the only challenge in building a concrete box. I have been involved in the placement of many thousands of yards of concrete and know through experience what a simple task this is.

coop44
07-26-2009, 5:27 PM
Fair enough Coop. And you're right in the fact that it could be used as a form, but for the ~$2000 box plus boom time for set that money could be more effectively used in a precast product or cast-in-place design. I didn't bring up pre or post-tentioning since they are beyond the scope I would consider for a DIY-type of installation. Spanning 8-10 feet (plus whatever length) can be a serious consideration if not an engineering challenge depending on other factors (depth, geology, deck design, etc.).

I guess the average DIY fella would probably screw it up.But I was talking about us, with abilities far beyond those of mere mortals.

Besides I don't trust precast products, I have seen my share of substandard ones, I prefer being able to sample the concrete for slump on site, and sending off a can or two for testing.

wildhawker
07-26-2009, 5:56 PM
Maybe, maybe not, but I'd hate for some poor Joe (or Joe's wife/kids) to cut his teeth on reinforced concrete by building an underground structure for human occupation.

I can appreciate your distrust of precast, but I assure you that precasting has come a long way. Entire *bridges* are precast or use precast components (read: new Bay Bridge, I-35 in Minnesota, etc.)- the level of quality control you can achieve in a precasting facility is tough to duplicate in the field. If you're really interested in as-built vs. as-designed, you can always request the fab yard have an independent lab run some cylinders and beams and run it out.

Bay Bridge
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/images/OBG_lift.jpg
http://www.generalconstructionco.com/images/project_san-fran-skyway.jpg

I-35
http://projects.dot.state.mn.us/35wbridge/images/thumbnails/IMG_9737sm.jpg

I guess the average DIY fella would probably screw it up.But I was talking about us, with abilities far beyond those of mere mortals.

Besides I don't trust precast products, I have seen my share of substandard ones, I prefer being able to sample the concrete for slump on site, and sending off a can or two for testing.

1923mack
07-27-2009, 8:16 AM
I would agree that precast is an excellent product. In a prevailing wage condition (like many projects in California) it can be cost effective. At $50.00per hour wage package for field labor things get expensive. The homeowner does not have to pay that kind of monies and may consider his labor free. The cost to bring in a large crane (or maybe boom truck?) to install units must also be factored in to the equation. For speed you cannot beat precast. As a homeowner with knowledge of heavy construction I would probably not go that way.

bubbapug1
07-27-2009, 10:32 AM
[QUOTE=djandj;2815048] (On Target in Lag. Niguel) says it cost about 75 thousand per lane to outfit (FWIW)=QUOTE]

that seems really high unless you hired a goverment agency to build and design it. I have seen the backstop up close and ther eis no way it cost more than $5,000.00 even with the target conveyers.

CAL.BAR
07-27-2009, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE=djandj;2815048] (On Target in Lag. Niguel) says it cost about 75 thousand per lane to outfit (FWIW)=QUOTE]

that seems really high unless you hired a goverment agency to build and design it. I have seen the backstop up close and ther eis no way it cost more than $5,000.00 even with the target conveyers.

What about wall/roof reinforcements, ventilation system, permits ins. etc?

gun toting monkeyboy
07-27-2009, 12:22 PM
Long ago, they used to just dig a trench out from the basement of houses, line it with wood or bricks, and then cover it back up. You ended up with a 25 yard shooting range that was 2-3 feet high by 2-3 feet wide. Set up at either shoulder height or bench rest height. You had a pulley at the far end to hual out/in the target, and if you were real fancy, a couple of lights in recessed fixtures. Back in the 1920s or 30s, the NRA had some articles on them in their magazines. Today you might add a ventilation/filter system to it as well. I have been seriously considering doing something like that at my new house, but I have to get it past She-who-must-be-obeyed first...

-Mb

383green
07-27-2009, 12:55 PM
That sort of mini-range (most likely using round concrete pipe) would be easy to make on my property... if only I had a basement to start from. :(

Untamed1972
07-27-2009, 1:24 PM
If I ever end up buy or building a house with a basement that is definitely something to consider. That would be pretty cool actually.

Not to mention if you had the end of lane with a manhole cover, or something lighter weight the could be more easily opened from the inside, where the cover would be obscured in some brush or something the culvert tunnel could be used as an escape tunnel from the house.

Lancear15
07-27-2009, 1:46 PM
I guess the average DIY fella would probably screw it up.But I was talking about us, with abilities far beyond those of mere mortals.

This made me laugh hard for some reason. :)

blackberg
07-27-2009, 2:05 PM
I had been thinking of this like the day before this post was made, been reading all along, something I have not seen mentioned is the backstop, what would be used for one?

-bb

wildhawker
07-27-2009, 2:40 PM
BB,

My thought was steel plate lined walls and maybe some loose mat'l fill.

walkstep
07-27-2009, 3:15 PM
Here is a very cool underground gun room/vault with a firing range.
29099

383green
07-27-2009, 4:02 PM
I had been thinking of this like the day before this post was made, been reading all along, something I have not seen mentioned is the backstop, what would be used for one?

I've previously read about a commercial bullet trap system called the Reclining GranTrap, which is basically a sloped pile of rubber granules covered with sheets of rubber to prevent splattering of the granules:

http://www.meggitttrainingsystems.com/docs/MTS_Reclining_GranTrap.pdf

For the sorts of 2'-4' wide/tall/diameter mini shooting lanes that some here have suggested, I wonder if something suitable could be improvised by filling the last 10' (or more? or less?) of the tunnel with commercial crumb rubber made from ground up old tires. Maybe the end of the tunnel should be capped off with a steel plate to prevent concrete erosion from any rounds that make it all the way to the back?

I'd want to make the backstop suitable for high-powered rifle rounds. Even though it wouldn't be terribly useful to sight in a rifle in a 2'x50' firing lane, it'd at least be possible to do functional checks and chronograph handloads. I'd consider it to be a requirement that the backstop could safely absorb loads at least up to a hot .30-06, without letting a light load like a .22 short round bounce back towards the shooter.

The main reason that I previously suggested 36" round concrete pipe instead of the 24" size was to make it easier to crawl into the pipe to initially place the backstop material, and then to be able to maintain it in the future. I don't think I'd want to try wedging myself into a 24" pipe... the result might be a lot like loading a muzzle-loader and forgetting to put in the powder charge before the ball. :D

With a 24" round concrete pipe, I think it'd be necessary to have a larger chamber at the downrange end of the pipe with some sort of manhole access in order to place and maintain the backstop material. With a 36"-48" pipe, I think it might be practical to just dead-end the pipe downrange without any aboveground access, as long as suitable ventilation can still be provided at the shooting position.

I think that I once read a comment from somebody that one can reduce muzzle blast noise by shooting through the center of a row of tires, such that the insides of the tires form baffles around and just beyond the muzzle. I would think that shooting into a concrete pipe from a concrete basement or vault would be awfully loud. With a round concrete pipe mini-range, I wonder if it would be helpful to wedge a half dozen old tires into the beginning of the pipe to help baffle the muzzle blast? I don't think that this would be considered to be a silencer since it would be a stationary structure which is not attached to the firearm. The tires could be pulled out to access the pipe for maintenance. They'd be right at the beginning of the pipe for shooting a handgun, or they could be pushed farther into the pipe in order to benchrest a rifle inside the pipe.

Comments?

383green
07-27-2009, 4:05 PM
Here is a very cool underground gun room/vault with a firing range.

That's amazingly awesome! :thumbsup:

blackberg
07-27-2009, 4:26 PM
ive seen that pick before many times, I have always wondered, that is a chrome plated 1919 right?
-bb

mrkubota
07-27-2009, 4:32 PM
ive seen that pick before many times, I have always wondered, that is a chrome plated 1919 right?
-bb

Looks like an M2HB .50bmg to me.... :)

1923mack
07-27-2009, 5:40 PM
Looked at a mobile fireing range last weekend. 3 lanes inside a 48' Trailmobile trailer. The backstop looked to be about a 1/2" steel plate angled about 30 degrees from verticle. It allowed 9mm and 45 acp, not sure if there were any limitations on bullets shapes, you know how some ranges do not allow hollowpoints.

The 24" or 36" pipe for length could work. A manhole or precast box section on either or both ends would work. A 10x10 or 6x12 precast manhole on the fireing side and a 5x5 or smaller at the receiving end would work. No basement required. If one did not want to bring in the big truck to install the precast sections, again concrete block can form similar sized structures. A poured concrete slab on grade and a poured concrete roof deck complete the structure. A building permit for this "structure" might be a bit more difficult. I am not sure what one could call it to explain its function. Root cellar? If you are going off the books, then no problem. Maybe just permit the fireing side structure, then build the pipe part and other end after final inspection. Call it a bomb shelter for the building department. Electricity, ventilation, access (handicapped?) will have to be addressed if getting a building permit.

wildhawker
07-28-2009, 12:17 AM
383, my largest (but not only) concern w/ just filling the lane is that of access. We're already talking about confined spaces worthy of atmospheric testing. Now to have someone in the tube doing maintenance in close quarters is worrisome to me, which is why I thought to place another box on the downrange end; allows for easier access, add'l fans and steel lined walls for the backstop (the precast boxes can be made with keyed slab tops that could drop on a steel-lined concrete box structure). Moving to 36"+ pipe is where the cost really jumps on the material and excavation/export, although I agree that 36"+ would really make for a nicer shooting lane; 36" is probably where I'd start looking at culvert segments or a custom tentioned square tube design (segmented for transport).

artherd
07-28-2009, 4:03 AM
Excavations over 5 feet can be sloped or shored. Type B soil can be sloped at 1:1, type C soil can be sloped at 1.5:1. Trench shield or Z shores will be expensive. One can follow the OSHA minimum regulations or have an engineer design a specific system for you. Less than 20 feet in depth does not require an engineer. The excavation is the easy part of this storage area construction!


All well and good, and all well above the pay-grade of the average DIY. I'd guess you have some underground construction experience (either as an engineer, or other work in the industry.)

I am licensed to do exactly this kind of thing, and it is NOT trivial and real human lives are at stake. To say this is the 'easy part' is irresponsible at best.

License Number:
88xxxx
Extract Date: 07/28/2009
Business Information:
xxxxxxxx & ENGINEERING INC
Entity:
Corporation
Issue Date:
09/26/2006
Expire Date:
09/30/2010
License Status:
This license is current and active. All information below should be reviewed.
Classifications:

CLASS DESCRIPTION
B GENERAL BUILDING CONTRACTOR
A GENERAL ENGINEERING CONTRACTOR
C20 WARM-AIR HEATING, VENTILATING AND AIR-CONDITIONING
BOND
This license filed Contractor's Bond number 100xxxx in the amount of $12,500 with the bonding company
BOND OF QUALIFYING INDIVIDUAL
WORKERS COMPENSATION INSURANCE
The Responsible Managing Officer (RMO) BENJAMIN PHILIP CANNONcertified
This license has workers compensation insurance with xxxxxxx.

1923mack
07-28-2009, 7:05 AM
If one is digging in wet bay mud than the excavation can be a bit tricky. A 10 foot deep excavation in typical Southern California dirt is not difficult or unsafe. A homeowner can understand a sloped excavation as well as most inspectors. Forming the concrete roof and or forming the concrete wall would be the more difficult for the homeowner. Snap ties, ledgers and that kind of stuff is a bit unusualfor the DIY'er. With a little help it can be explained and constructed safely. I stand by my statement and am willing to help any Calgunser's that require assistance in such an endevor.

kalguns
07-28-2009, 7:26 AM
I work for a structural concrete company. A rectangular box under ground (storage vault, bomb shelter, whine seller or bat cave what ever it takes to get a buliding permit) would be easy and cheep. You can get 4000psi right now for $70.00 a yard and rebar is $600 a ton. Lumber is at an all time low. I worked up a price for labor, concert, rebar, sump pit and pump, water proofing, back stop (wood, foam and rubber), ventilation system, sound damping system, and exporting of spoils for a 75'x 10'x 10' lane underground. I could do the whole thing permits and plans for $90,000.00. I have no idea what an electric pulley system would be so that would be extra.

If you were willing to do the labor your self you could knock off $20,000 and another $13,500 for profit and overhead. TO do it your self you would be looking at about $56,500.

JDoe
07-28-2009, 8:34 AM
FWIW

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=32297

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=148769

wildhawker
07-28-2009, 10:56 AM
If one is digging in wet bay mud than the excavation can be a bit tricky. A 10 foot deep excavation in typical Southern California dirt is not difficult or unsafe. A homeowner can understand a sloped excavation as well as most inspectors. Forming the concrete roof and or forming the concrete wall would be the more difficult for the homeowner. Snap ties, ledgers and that kind of stuff is a bit unusualfor the DIY'er. With a little help it can be explained and constructed safely. I stand by my statement and am willing to help any Calgunser's that require assistance in such an endevor.

Really? Tell that to this guy (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/03/27/state/n094735D54.DTL&type=health). Southern California soil kills more than its fair share of people. 10ft is a SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS DEPTH. An average homeowner does NOT know how to read soils and make informed decisions on trench protection methods suitable for both the soil and mode of construction, not to mention adapt to the unforeseens inherent to UG construction. Residential inspectors are likewise typically untrained, nor can they provide advice of this nature.

Sloping a trench (without use of other trench protection methods) for a 36" pipe set just 3' underground would mean you're excavating ~21-29 feet wide at OG...

kalguns
07-28-2009, 5:02 PM
Really? Tell that to this guy (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/03/27/state/n094735D54.DTL&type=health). Southern California soil kills more than its fair share of people. 10ft is a SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS DEPTH. An average homeowner does NOT know how to read soils and make informed decisions on trench protection methods suitable for both the soil and mode of construction, not to mention adapt to the unforeseens inherent to UG construction. Residential inspectors are likewise typically untrained, nor can they provide advice of this nature.

Sloping a trench (without use of other trench protection methods) for a 36" pipe set just 3' underground would mean you're excavating ~21-29 feet wide at OG...

1 to 1 cut back anything over 5' deep. OSHA standards.
For a 3' foot trench you would not need a cut back anything let alone 21'-29'.
For a 10' deep trench you would have to cut back 5' on each side. The bottom 5' can be a straight cut.
Even with the worst soils (Type C) it is a 1 to 1.5 cut back.

artherd
07-29-2009, 12:23 AM
A 10 foot deep excavation in typical Southern California dirt is not difficult or unsafe.

are. you. freaking. kidding. me?

http://www.builderonline.com/construction-safety/trench-collapse-death-is-a-crime.aspx

Expect to be charged with manslaughter when your unshored 10' trench kills a laborer.

artherd
07-29-2009, 12:37 AM
1 to 1 cut back anything over 5' deep. OSHA standards.

For a 10' deep trench you would have to cut back 5' on each side. The bottom 5' can be a straight cut.

INCORRECT: http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_2.html

Curtis
07-29-2009, 12:43 AM
1 to 1 cut back anything over 5' deep. OSHA standards.
For a 3' foot trench you would not need a cut back anything let alone 21'-29'.
For a 10' deep trench you would have to cut back 5' on each side. The bottom 5' can be a straight cut.
Even with the worst soils (Type C) it is a 1 to 1.5 cut back.

I agree. We do this all the time. A vast majority of the excavations I see are almost vertical or vertical. It is very rare to actually see someone do an OSHA cut back on a residential project. The hole described by kalguns is a typical pool type excavation.

What about just using a shipping container? You could put two of them end to end and have up to 90'. Then you would only need to have a small vault to stand in.

383green
07-29-2009, 1:32 AM
What about just using a shipping container? You could put two of them end to end and have up to 90'. Then you would only need to have a small vault to stand in.

That has already been discussed in this thread. Without a lot of bracing and shoring, a sea container is likely to collapse when buried.

artherd
07-29-2009, 2:58 AM
For a 3' foot trench you would not need a cut back anything let alone 21'-29'.


3' underground to top of pipe. The pipe itself is another 3' deep, then you need to bed the pipe. add another foot at least unless you want cracks.

We're at 7 feet.

wildhawker
07-29-2009, 5:51 AM
3' underground to top of pipe. The pipe itself is another 3' deep, then you need to bed the pipe. add another foot at least unless you want cracks.

We're at 7 feet.

Someone who "gets it" - Ben's exactly right. I figured 8 for some overex, but yes, you're 7+ and must factor the slope from the edge of the excavation, not the centerline of the alignment.

artherd
07-29-2009, 5:59 AM
I figured 8 for some overex, but yes, you're 7+

Heheh, over 25m? I'd fire that operator :D Brandon's spot on though.

Trench collapses are no laughing matter, even being buried up to only your belly button can be FATAL.

That all said, someone experienced (ie an operator or engineer, or surveyor or other saavy individual) could DIY something like this and probably knock off 20%. On a $100k+ job. That's still $80k.

Any way you slice it, this is not for the feint of heart. On the flip side, to someone with resources, it's very doable.

1923mack
07-29-2009, 7:43 AM
Kalguns is thinking old school. 5 foot vertical then sloping the additional 5 feet. In the old days one could go 5' vertical and the rest at 3/4:1. As Artherd states that is not currently legal. One can go up 5 feet, then a 5 foot bench, then slope @ 1:1, which is a net 1:1 slope. A 10 foot bottom would be 30' wide at the top. People get killed every day in automobiles. Are you going to stop drivng your car? If you check the records most excavation accidents are in unshored or incorrectly shored holes. There are very few accidents in sloped excavations. Sloping is inherently stable and does not require any design as per cal Osha (under 20 feet depth). Yes a competent person is required, and if one is uncertain of the material one could go to 1.5:1 sloping to be conservative for most soil conditions. A 3' wide excavation 3' deep could be 3', 9' or 12 wide at the top depending on the soil material. Vertical, 1:1 or 1.5:1.

kalguns
07-29-2009, 8:28 AM
INCORRECT: http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_2.html

In the link that YOU posted is section VII Sloping and Benching it clearly states 1:1 cut back in soil type B just like I stated. Why donít you stick to selling what ever it is you sell, because you have NO IDEA what the heck you are talking about!

Kalguns is thinking old school. 5 foot vertical then sloping the additional 5 feet. In the old days one could go 5' vertical and the rest at 3/4:1. As Artherd states that is not currently legal. One can go up 5 feet, then a 5 foot bench, then slope @ 1:1, which is a net 1:1 slope. A 10 foot bottom would be 30' wide at the top. People get killed every day in automobiles. Are you going to stop drivng your car? If you check the records most excavation accidents are in unshored or incorrectly shored holes. There are very few accidents in sloped excavations. Sloping is inherently stable and does not require any design as per cal Osha (under 20 feet depth). Yes a competent person is required, and if one is uncertain of the material one could go to 1.5:1 sloping to be conservative for most soil conditions. A 3' wide excavation 3' deep could be 3', 9' or 12 wide at the top depending on the soil material. Vertical, 1:1 or 1.5:1.

Thinking old school?? Hey 1923mack why donít you read artie's link he posted ( http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_2.html Section VII Sloping and trenching) also. You are talking out of your arse also.

:smartass::smartass::smartass::smartass::smartass:

LesGrossman41510
07-29-2009, 10:20 AM
i want to get some outdoor land and make my own range in my backyard that would be awesome. probably have to leave california for that one though.

1923mack
07-29-2009, 10:48 AM
No Kalguns I am speaking the rules according to Cal OSHA. If you do not understand them or do not wish to follow them that is your choice. I am telling the CALGUNS readers the rules. For a 10 foot deep excavation in type B soil one cannot go 5' horizontal, then slope. Not allowed, not legal. You may go at 1:1 for the whole 10 deep excavation, or do steps that net the same (10' additional width on top). There are some allowances for a 3.5 foot verticle in type A soils, but type A soils are few and far between. The reason I said "old school" was because back in hte 70's Cal OSHA allowed what you stated. The rules have changed since the 70's. The current regs have been around for quite a few years. As I previously stated sloped excavations are inherently stable. What you suggest would probably "stand" and not collapse (like I said they did this in the 70's), it is just not legal per current Cal OSHA regulations.

DELTA
07-29-2009, 11:44 AM
What nobody has talked about here is the Lead and "Other Contaminants" factor.

What happens when you want to ever sell your property, or your heirs have to transfer title to their names? No title insurance, or new homeowner's insurance will insure the transfer of title because of current or future EPA regulations. Good luck finding a big chain R.E. agency to list or sell said property (remember they have deep pockets).

In these sue happy times that we live in (specially here in Kalifornistan), can you imagine the payout amounts once the new owners sue claiming that the lead in the property was the reason for their kid developing autism? Don't tell me about disclosure clauses. That worked really well for Fish Canyon Shooting Range.

Just another angle to ponder.

kalguns
07-29-2009, 12:14 PM
No Kalguns I am speaking the rules according to Cal OSHA. If you do not understand them or do not wish to follow them that is your choice. I am telling the CALGUNS readers the rules. For a 10 foot deep excavation in type B soil one cannot go 5' horizontal, then slope. Not allowed, not legal. You may go at 1:1 for the whole 10 deep excavation, or do steps that net the same (10' additional width on top). There are some allowances for a 3.5 foot verticle in type A soils, but type A soils are few and far between. The reason I said "old school" was because back in hte 70's Cal OSHA allowed what you stated. The rules have changed since the 70's. The current regs have been around for quite a few years. As I previously stated sloped excavations are inherently stable. What you suggest would probably "stand" and not collapse (like I said they did this in the 70's), it is just not legal per current Cal OSHA regulations.

Really? Did they just change it last month? I would love to see that safety standard if you could be so kind.
Because I am doing a huge retrofit in LA right now with a lot of underpinning. And according to our CALOSHA safety inspector any thing over 5' has to be shored or cut back. We have to go down 10' in some case and the bottom 5' can be un shored, but the top 5' has to be cut back.

eviioiive
07-29-2009, 12:20 PM
already have one...

wildhawker
07-29-2009, 1:56 PM
Wow, did this thread go sideways with BS... I just pray that others see through it and make wise decisions. The wrong ones can kill you.

lazuris
07-29-2009, 2:03 PM
To the OP's question. The answer is yes. I know of a customers residence in Corona Del Mar that has one underground.

wildhawker
07-29-2009, 2:11 PM
Obviously these are questions worthy of consideration before one invests tens of thousand of dollars (or more) into a project of this magnitude and nature. There are outlets for legal disposal of both RCRA and non-RCRA CalHaz waste in CA and adjacent states. A few tests (STLC, TTLC, TLCP) will provide the data required to make determinations on how one would be required to mitigate the contamination, if any. DTSC allows Caltrans (via variance) to bury CalHaz [tetraethyl] lead contaminated soils under clean fill, depth determined based upon levels of contamination- most private landowners do not have this flexibility, however.

What nobody has talked about here is the Lead and "Other Contaminants" factor.

What happens when you want to ever sell your property, or your heirs have to transfer title to their names? No title insurance, or new homeowner's insurance will insure the transfer of title because of current or future EPA regulations. Good luck finding a big chain R.E. agency to list or sell said property (remember they have deep pockets).

In these sue happy times that we live in (specially here in Kalifornistan), can you imagine the payout amounts once the new owners sue claiming that the lead in the property was the reason for their kid developing autism? Don't tell me about disclosure clauses. That worked really well for Fish Canyon Shooting Range.

Just another angle to ponder.

1923mack
07-29-2009, 2:20 PM
Page 72.6 in the May 1992 Edition of the Cal OSHA Construction Safety Orders. Similar diagrams are in the current edition of the regulation, I do not have them in front of me as I type.

383green
07-29-2009, 2:47 PM
Despite the ongoing argument over specific details and regulations, I've already found this thread to be very informative on some technical matters:

1) Slope the trench or rent proper trench shoring! The argument sounds to me like it's over just how little trench sloping is an acceptable minimum. If I were to hypothetically dig a trench, I'd probably err on the side of over-excavation because I'd be more concerned with safety than minimizing excavation cost, and I'd presumably either rent a backhoe or use my bobcat, so I'd be wasting more time than dollars.

2) Gotta bed concrete pipe to avoid cracking. Is roadbase a good material to use? Is 6" of it enough for 24-36" RCP with proper compaction?

3) For minimum cost, it sounds like it might be necessary to suffer with 24" pipe and design the range to not require crawling into the pipe for any installation or maintenance.

Hmm, that might make it hard to install target handling equipment, though. I was considering that the target handling mechanism could consist of structural channel mounted on the ceiling of the lane, with a target hanger riding in a trolley that fits the channel (I think such trolleys are off-the-shelf items, IIRC, but wouldn't be too hard to make anyway). The trolley-in-channel would avoid the sag of a plain cable system, which would be a problem with such a short lane height. Target retrieval could be handled with a cable and pulleys. I don't see the need for an electric drive for a short private range.

Also, besides installing the channel in the first place, it may be necessary at some point to recover it from mid-range if the cable or trolley gets damaged. I just don't think I'd want to try crawling into a pipe under 36", even though my shoulders would probably fit into a 24" pipe. Anybody know any midget spelunkers? :D

Would there be any particular need to bury the pipe more than 2' or so below grade, assuming that the ground above would be used for something like a lawn? Could the pipe support occasional vehicle traffic at that depth? (In my case, "vehicle" could include a 34,000 pound wrecker... :eek:)

I'm personally most interested in discussing the technical and economic aspects of this hypothetical construction, but I'm glad that the legal and environmental aspects are being discussed, too.

1923mack
07-29-2009, 3:45 PM
6" of material under the pipe is fine for support. Sand is actually better then base. Only 2 feet of cover for 24" RCP is marginal for a large truck. Pipe spec's might say no, but will probably work. Good compacted backfill around and above the pipe will assist it its ability to carry load. Just dozing in dirt (and not really compacting it) will reduce the load capacity.

artherd
07-29-2009, 11:52 PM
In the link that YOU posted is section VII Sloping and Benching it clearly states 1:1 cut back in soil type B just like I stated. Why donít you stick to selling what ever it is you sell, because you have NO IDEA what the heck you are talking about!

I have a better idea, why don't you read that link again,, see FIGURE V:2-14. EXCAVATIONS MADE IN TYPE A SOIL. and see where all that is allowed is a 3.5' vertical cut at the bottom of only Type A soil (which is rare, show me clay without fissures?!). and benching at all is permitted in type B soils that are cohesive only.

You claimed 5' for any type.

You are wrong.

Oh, and can I see your CA State Engineering license please? kthxbye.

artherd
07-29-2009, 11:55 PM
METAL/NONMETAL MINE FATALITY - On June 2, 2003, a 52-year old contractor foreman, with 25 years construction experience, was fatally injured at a surface clay operation. The victim was installing a 24-inch drainpipe in a 9-foot deep trench when a portion of the trench wall caved in and partially engulfed him.

http://www.msha.gov/FATALS/2003/ftlgif/ftl2003m11.jpg

artherd
07-30-2009, 12:01 AM
OSHA Cites Gwinnett County Contractor Involved in Trenching Fatality — Agency Proposes Over $100,000 in Penalties (PDF format)

http://www.frosttraining.com/images/photo_trench2.jpg

383green
07-30-2009, 12:04 AM
METAL/NONMETAL MINE FATALITY - On June 2, 2003, a 52-year old contractor foreman, with 25 years construction experience, was fatally injured at a surface clay operation. The victim was installing a 24-inch drainpipe in a 9-foot deep trench when a portion of the trench wall caved in and partially engulfed him.


In the picture, it looks like the trench was not shored, and was sloped a lot less than 1:1. Am I interpreting it properly?

artherd
07-30-2009, 12:05 AM
A 36-year-old construction worker died after being rescued November 8, 2007 from a trench that collapsed during a city water pipe replacement project on Hudson Street, a deputy coroner said.

James Michael Hare, 36, died after he was buried under a mound of dirt for about 45 minutes.

The autopsy report is still being written, said Deputy Coroner Karie Cain.

Cain said EMS workers estimated that the man was trapped for about 50 minutes.

It was unclear what caused the cave-in but Greenville Fire Chief Tommy McDowell said the victim was trapped in about 6 feet of dirt.

McDowell said the man was "unresponsive" and "not breathing when he left the scene by ambulance.

McDowell said city firefighters arrived on the scene two minutes after being notified about the accident at 4:26 p.m.

http://www.llr.state.sc.us/images/bilde.jpg

artherd
07-30-2009, 12:06 AM
This can happen at home too, you don't need a big trench to get into serious trouble.

http://www.andersontownship.org/images/06_Trench_Collapse.jpg

artherd
07-30-2009, 12:07 AM
In the picture, it looks like the trench was not shored, and was sloped a lot less than 1:1. Am I interpreting it properly?

It most likely was not sloped at all. only 9' though, about the depth we are talking about here. Pipe size is the same too.

Only a few feet of dirt on the ground after the collapse, and this was FATAL.

kalguns
07-30-2009, 8:03 AM
I have a better idea, why don't you read that link again,, see FIGURE V:2-14. EXCAVATIONS MADE IN TYPE A SOIL. and see where all that is allowed is a 3.5' vertical cut at the bottom of only Type A soil (which is rare, show me clay without fissures?!). and benching at all is permitted in type B soils that are cohesive only.

You claimed 5' for any type.

You are wrong.

Oh, and can I see your CA State Engineering license please? kthxbye.

WOW! It like playing cards with my brothers kids.

1923mack
07-30-2009, 11:05 AM
Unfortunately many project inspectors are like policemen. Ask 3 cops about open carry and you will likely get 3 different answers. Not all inspectors are up on the safety laws. They are responsible for and watching contract complience. The employing contractor is responsible for workman safety. I have only had an OSHA inspector on my job twice and those were for specific incidents.

kalguns
07-30-2009, 12:09 PM
:surrender:

artherd
07-30-2009, 8:48 PM
Unfortunately many project inspectors are like policemen. Ask 3 cops about open carry and you will likely get 3 different answers. Not all inspectors are up on the safety laws. They are responsible for and watching contract complience. The employing contractor is responsible for workman safety. I have only had an OSHA inspector on my job twice and those were for specific incidents.

That's actually a very good point. Getting your regulatory information from an
Inspector is akin to taking legal advice from a cop. Most of the time they might actually mean well, but they'll likely flub it all the same.

We probably have too many regs.

383green
07-30-2009, 8:58 PM
We probably have too many regs.

While I generally agree that we have way (way, way, way...) too many laws and regulations, the safety-related ones bother me the least of all. As they say, building codes are written in blood.

383green
08-01-2009, 2:03 PM
I think that the civil engineers participating in this thread might find some issues with this storm shelter:

http://thereifixedit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/tifi-alternativebombshelter.jpg

:eek:

1923mack
08-02-2009, 7:14 PM
That is definitely the poor mans shelter. Not even buried. Top of the bus is projecting above the ground! Dig hole, insert bus, backfill. Quick and easy. The before mentioned 40/48/53 foot cargo container makes a bit more sense for this type of shelter. But I guess sometimes you use what you have.

Meplat
08-02-2009, 10:54 PM
There is a law against the discharge of a firearm in the city limits unless at a recognized range so. . . just b/c you own the house doesn't mean you can discharge firearms on the property.

RE: ins. if you (or a guest) were ever injured on your "range" or a fire started down there, or you had water seepage, subsidence etc, your homeowners ins. will not cover you.

ISTJs are often called inspectors. They have a keen sense of right and wrong, especially in their area of interest and/or responsibility. They are noted for devotion to duty. Punctuality is a watchword of the ISTJ. The secretary, clerk, or business(wo)man by whom others set their clocks is likely to be an ISTJ.

As do other Introverted Thinkers, ISTJs often give the initial impression of being aloof and perhaps somewhat cold. Effusive expression of emotional warmth is not something that ISTJs do without considerable energy loss.

ISTJs are most at home with "just the facts, Ma'am." They seem to perform at highest efficiency when employing a step-by-step approach. Once a new procedure has proven itself (i.e., has been shown "to work,") the ISTJ can be depended upon to carry it through, even at the expense of their own health.

ISTJs are easily frustrated by the inconsistencies of others, especially when the second parties don't keep their commitments. But they usually keep their feelings to themselves unless they are asked. And when asked, they don't mince words. Truth wins out over tact. The grim determination of the ISTJ vindicates itself in officiation of sports events, judiciary functions, or an other situation which requires making tough calls and sticking to them.

His SJ orientation draws the ISTJ into the service of established institutions. Home, social clubs, government, schools, the military, churches -- these are the bastions of the SJ. "We've always done it this way" is often reason enough for many ISTJs. Threats to time-honored traditions or established organizations (e.g., a "run" on the bank) are the undoing of SJs, and are to be fought at all costs.

383green
08-02-2009, 11:00 PM
Huh? :confused:

ke6guj
08-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Heres one Mark LaRue's currently building, http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=177561

stuckinhippytown
08-02-2009, 11:33 PM
Thats why I live in Butte county. There are alot of ranches here that have shooting ranges heck ones even right next to the community college My buddy and I shoot before we head to class

BlackReef
08-03-2009, 5:24 PM
Good luck, wouldn't a 10 year range membership be a whole lot cheaper than attempting something like this??? :confused:

Your missing the whole point, man

drsalee
08-03-2009, 8:41 PM
Heres one Mark LaRue's currently building, http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=177561

I thought that thing looks a bit funky. I guess it's relatively easy....but, shooting into that big tube? I dunno.

CenterX
08-03-2009, 8:55 PM
Needs some details regarding the lighting, sound abatement and drainage.
At this point it looks like a parking-lot sump drain project.
I wish him the best.

383green
08-03-2009, 9:48 PM
Heres one Mark LaRue's currently building, http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=177561


This looks pretty similar to some of the ideas being discussed in this thread. I figured I'd discuss some of the technical aspects of his range here, to see what the construction and civil engineering folks on CGN think about it.

I note that instead of RCP, he's using 42" galvanized steel culvert pipe:

If I heard right, that 42" x 60 ft. galvanized pipe ran just over $2,000 ...

I'd sure prefer a 42" diameter pipe over a 24" one. I gathered from one of the other postings that the pipe comes in 20' sections. How heavy are the sections? How are they joined (i.e., do they need to be welded)? Does the steel pipe require a sand bed like the concrete pipe does?

Would the corrugated interior of the pipe be more likely to cause a dangerous ricochet if a bullet hits the pipe wall compared to round concrete pipe? Could the pipe be simply buried, or would it need to have concrete poured around it (particularly for when a bullet eventually hits the wall)?



I note that he's forming the shooting position walls and floor out of gunite, and using a sea container as a roof. It seems to me that in terms of material and labor, building the range this way should have a similar cost to building a swimming pool. Using a container for the roof avoids the need to place forms and reinforcements to pour a concrete roof. If I were doing this, I'd probably use a 20' container instead of a 40' one... in part because I already have a few 20 footers! ;)


IMHO, that tube is gonna be loud when firing unsuppressed weapons down it. In some of my misspent youth, I fired rounds through those things for grins and giggles. Makes for a heck of a racket and alot more perceived muzzle noise.

You might consider finding some used tires to line the first 4-6 feet of the chamber to help absorb some of those sound waves.

Otherwise, you built a really effective echo chamber.

This is exactly what I was thinking about when I mentioned shooting through tires in a previous posting.


For the underground walls, how would gunite, cinderblock and poured concrete compare to each other in terms of material and labor cost?

wildhawker
08-03-2009, 10:29 PM
CMP (corr. metal pipe, steel for the below) may be less costly taken on its own, but provides limited mounting options for target system. Also, stray projectiles would likely cause serious cumulative damage where they impact the pipe, and I'd be curious how the sound waves might reflect and propagate in a corrugated tube. I considered CMP in some earlier cost analysis but found that the concrete backfill I'd end up placing would wash the cost savings with additional material costs and increased offhaul- for something of this size or larger I keep coming back to segmented reinforced PCC (pipe or square culverts).

The CMP can be direct-buried (future static and traffic loads should be considered) and band couplings are available; it should be bedded, although if we're not installing for serious traffic loads I might fudge there for both CMP and RCP. It is not light material, although much lighter and easier to handle than RCP in some regards. If I could make the numbers work with the incr. soil handling and PCC, I'd definitely consider it viable (especially if I could get some 2x wall lined pipe like Smooth Cor at a decent price). Mid-grade 48" CMP runs ~65-95lb/ft.

I'll look up some labor and unit cost tables for the shotcrete/block/CIP walls if I remember tomorrow; another option might an MSE wall, but it's a bit cute for my tastes (this isn't a piano, and I like to keep labor low since it's typically my own I'm factoring- time is money). Using the container as an at-grade roof is not a bad idea, but for future maint issues I'd probably steer to a pan deck and keep the container out of the design. If you already have one, it obviously creates some opportunity for savings (albeit minimal considering the loss of a functioning weathertight storage asset).

The sound issue is an interesting one- could it be much worse than an indoor range? Would it be effective to line the walls, floor and first x feet of tbe with sound dampening materials?

383green
08-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Luckily for me, I wouldn't expect to need to deal with offhaul if I were to do a project like this. I have 5 acres of unlandscaped land with about 40 feet of elevation variation, so it'd be easy for me to make a range's worth of excavated earth disappear without affecting drainage by just spreading it around intelligently.

wildhawker
08-03-2009, 11:26 PM
Luckily for me, I wouldn't expect to need to deal with offhaul if I were to do a project like this. I have 5 acres of unlandscaped land with about 40 feet of elevation variation, so it'd be easy for me to make a range's worth of excavated earth disappear without affecting drainage by just spreading it around intelligently.

In that case, call it architectural landscaping :D

383green
08-04-2009, 12:03 AM
In that case, call it architectural landscaping :D


I prefer "weed abatement". ;)

1923mack
08-05-2009, 9:09 AM
As stated, the CMP pipe uses steel bands to couple the pieces together. Very simple coupling. Backfill costs for CMP will not be very different than RCP. RCP is stronger than CMP, but for the shallow depth we are looking at for these projects not much of an issue. Concrete is not required around the outside of hte CMP.

The gunite/shotcrete wall is an interesting idea. In normal construction we only use shotcrete when all other options do not work. Poured in place concrete and concrete block are usually cheaper than shotcrete. In the example shown, he was able to dig less dirt, and had no backfill of dirt. Concrete walls and concrete block walls will require one to two feet of room "behind" the wall. After the wall is constructed the one or two foot area will require backfilling and possible waterproofing. The reason I prefer concrete or masonry walls is they are projects the DIY'er can do. Shotcrete is a specialized project that you have to have an experienced crew to perform. If I was doing this type of project the Shotcrete would not figure. If you happen to have a friend that does that type of work and can bring over a crew for a few cases of beer than it might figure. Got a friend that can bring over a few concrete wall forms then that will work. Get a good deal on some 8x8x16 concete block then go that route. Just the purchase of ready mix concrete is in the $100 per cubic yard these days, so one 9 CY truck is close to $1000.