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microstencil
07-23-2009, 7:53 AM
I live 20 feet from a K-5 school and 1000 feet from a 6-8 school. If I am loading my car to go to the range am I in violation for the "School Safe Zone"? :confused:

bigtoe416
07-23-2009, 8:01 AM
I'm assuming you are taking a handgun to the range and are carrying it out to your car by hand or in a container of some sort that isn't a fully enclosed locked container.

If your car is parked on the street, definitely.

If your car is parked in your driveway and you don't have a fence preventing the public from walking up on to your driveway, then yes according to People v. Overturf.

If your car is in your garage, and your garage door is closed, then no.

If you're taking a rifle to the range then even if your car is on the street you are not violating California's school zone law, but are violating the federal school zone law (which was ruled unconstitutional in U.S. v. Lopez and then re-passed by congress with the same wording plus 12 words saying that they can pass such laws due to the commerce clause).

It should be noted that if you are carrying a handgun in an unlocked container you may be running afoul of having an illegally concealed weapon if you are in a public place (maybe, I'm not sure about this) and definitely if you are not on private property.

microstencil
07-23-2009, 8:18 AM
I would have handgun's and rifle's in a locked case so no one could see what they are. I would be loading them into my car in the driveway were there is no fence.

bigtoe416
07-23-2009, 9:17 AM
You're good to go then. You don't have to worry about school zones as soon as you have any firearms in a fully enclosed locked case.

lorax3
07-23-2009, 10:22 AM
There are two statues that apply in this case. 626.9 CA PC and 18 USC 922 (q).

626.9 prohibits handguns within 1K feet of a K-12 school. You are exempt if those handguns are in a locked secure container, or are on 'private property'.

'Private property' that is open to the public will most likely not be considered private property. So places like your unfenced front lawn, or open driveway will probably not be exempt. This is important for those who which to use their car's trunk as the 'locked container' as while they are walking to their vehicle with their unlocked guns they in violation of this section.

The easiest way to get around this is to just lock up your handguns. Since you live so close to a school you cannot leave your home with an unlocked handgun, at least not legally.

626.9 (b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.

18 USC 922(q) is the federal version of this law which applies to all firearms, including stripped receivers.

18 USC 922(q) (2)(A)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

The original version of the federal law was struck down in US v. Lopez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez). As of now any violations of this section must interfere with interstate commerce.

Again, you are exempt from both if your firearms are in locked containers and are unloaded.

Let us hope that AB 668 (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=193675) dies quietly in committee. The new version of the bill which amends 626.9 not only expands the zone to 1500 feet but also takes out the 'locked container' exemption (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2800540&postcount=51). Meaning anyone within 1.5K feet of a school will still be in violation even if their handgun is locked up but not in a vehicle. The new bill only keeps the vehicle and private property exemption. So unless you have a private driveway to load your handguns into you are SOL.

BTW: If was great working with you and bplvr and all the others at the last Del Mar show. See you in October!

Decoligny
07-23-2009, 10:24 AM
I'm assuming you are taking a handgun to the range and are carrying it out to your car by hand or in a container of some sort that isn't a fully enclosed locked container.

If your car is parked on the street, definitely.

If your car is parked in your driveway and you don't have a fence preventing the public from walking up on to your driveway, then yes according to People v. Overturf.
If your car is in your garage, and your garage door is closed, then no.

If you're taking a rifle to the range then even if your car is on the street you are not violating California's school zone law, but are violating the federal school zone law (which was ruled unconstitutional in U.S. v. Lopez and then re-passed by congress with the same wording plus 12 words saying that they can pass such laws due to the commerce clause).

It should be noted that if you are carrying a handgun in an unlocked container you may be running afoul of having an illegally concealed weapon if you are in a public place (maybe, I'm not sure about this) and definitely if you are not on private property.

IIRC Overturf deals with a loaded weapon in "a public place" per the verbage of PC 12031, private property without a fence has been ruled to be "a public place".

PC 626.9 deals with the "Gun Free School Zone" and has nothing in it that states anything about "public place". The exemption listed in 626.9 states simply "private property", so Overturf would only apply if the gun were loaded, and then the violation would only be of 12031, not 626.9.

So, as the law currently stands, if you openly carry your unloaded gun out to your car, and you don't leave your own property, and you don't conceal the gun, then you are legal. If you do conceal the gun, then it has to be in a locked secure container.

KylaGWolf
07-23-2009, 10:26 AM
Microstencil if the new version of this bill passes then yes even in a locked container taking your handgun to your car would be a violation. As unless Lorax said your driveway was in a fenced in area or your car was in a garage. Now see why I was grumbling Sunday?

Big Jake
07-23-2009, 10:36 AM
I am a teacher and I read that this law does not apply to either of the following two scenarios.

1. A person licensed for ccw, or a licensed security guard who is performing his duties within the scope of his employment.

2. A person who lives within the safe school zone at his/her home/condo/apartement.

At our school we have brinks security come each day to take the cafeteria and student store deposits, which total on average $8,000.00 in cash every school day.

They are armed while on campus and it is not a problem!

Please note that I am not saying that a person who has a ccw can carry on school grounds. I am saying that a person who has a ccw may carry within the safe school zone as long as they do not go on campus. The federal law allows the states to decide if ccw can carry on school grounds.

In Utah teachers who have ccw may carry loaded firearms on their person at work. This is also true of Oregon!

KylaGWolf
07-23-2009, 10:54 AM
I am a teacher and I read that this law does not apply to either of the following two scenarios.

1. A person licensed for ccw, or a licensed security guard who is performing his duties within the scope of his employment.

2. A person who lives within the safe school zone at his/her home/condo/apartement.

At our school we have brinks security come each day to take the cafeteria and student store deposits, which total on average $8,000.00 in cash every school day.

They are armed while on campus and it is not a problem!

Please note that I am not saying that a person who has a ccw can carry on school grounds. I am saying that a person who has a ccw may carry within the safe school zone as long as they do not go on campus. The federal law allows the states to decide if ccw can carry on school grounds.

In Utah teachers who have ccw may carry loaded firearms on their person at work. This is also true of Oregon!

Actually it would still apply in your second situation. :(

Librarian
07-23-2009, 12:11 PM
I am a teacher and I read that this law does not apply to either of the following two scenarios.

1. A person licensed for ccw, or a licensed security guard who is performing his duties within the scope of his employment.

2. A person who lives within the safe school zone at his/her home/condo/apartement.

At our school we have brinks security come each day to take the cafeteria and student store deposits, which total on average $8,000.00 in cash every school day.

They are armed while on campus and it is not a problem!

Please note that I am not saying that a person who has a ccw can carry on school grounds. I am saying that a person who has a ccw may carry within the safe school zone as long as they do not go on campus. The federal law allows the states to decide if ccw can carry on school grounds.

In Utah teachers who have ccw may carry loaded firearms on their person at work. This is also true of Oregon!

Actually, a person with CCW CAN carry on school property in CA. They might be asked to leave, but unless noticed and asked and then refusing, CCW holders break no law by carrying in a GFSZ or on school property/campus.

The 'at home' part is within your dwelling or on your private property, though as someone pointed out above, there seems to have been a conflation of 12031 'loaded in a public place' to 626.9 'private property', thus the 'fenced front yard' discussion - restricted access is, apparently, a defense to the 12031 interpretation.

That's why carrying out to your car at the curb is better in a locked case - at the moment, locked case is an exception to GFSZ, and on the street/sidewalk easement is definitely 'public'.

Big Jake
07-23-2009, 3:40 PM
I stand corrected! Thank you!:rockon:

bld0121
07-30-2009, 2:32 PM
Please note that I am not saying that a person who has a ccw can carry on school grounds. I am saying that a person who has a ccw may carry within the safe school zone as long as they do not go on campus. The federal law allows the states to decide if ccw can carry on school grounds.

In Utah teachers who have ccw may carry loaded firearms on their person at work. This is also true of Oregon!

Don't be too sure about the bold section. I was in a gun shop about 2 weeks ago and the dealer showed me his CCW and plain-as-day were the words "NOT VALID WITHIN 1000FT OF A SCHOOL". This would be area to talk with a 2A lawyer and local LEA if you had a CCW. This may not answer any questions, but if it keeps a GG out of jail I've helped.

As for the teacher thing, I'm a teacher and it sounds like I need to move to a shall-issue county in Southern Oregon. ;)

Musclemom
07-30-2009, 2:51 PM
Don't be too sure about the bold section. I was in a gun shop about 2 weeks ago and the dealer showed me his CCW and plain-as-day were the words "NOT VALID WITHIN 1000FT OF A SCHOOL". This would be area to talk with a 2A lawyer and local LEA if you had a CCW. This may not answer any questions, but if it keeps a GG out of jail I've helped.

As for the teacher thing, I'm a teacher and it sounds like I need to move to a shall-issue county in Southern Oregon. ;)
State law exempts CCW holders from the 1K rule. However, the issuing agency can place additional restrictions on the CCW.

Theseus
07-30-2009, 2:54 PM
State law exempts CCW holders from the 1K rule. However, the issuing agency can place additional restrictions on the CCW.

I don't like that idea. Then what is the point?

Decoligny
07-30-2009, 2:56 PM
I don't like that idea. Then what is the point?

I read in a post that one of the counties (can't remember which) was issueing all of its CCWs with that particular restriction.

Musclemom
07-30-2009, 3:26 PM
I don't like that idea. Then what is the point?

What's the point of most of CA's gun laws? :rolleyes: ;)

It is pretty asinine though. All it does is create confusion between jurisdictions. For example, some counties require you to disclose your CCW status immediately upon contact with at LEO for any reason, others do not.

Irrational Voice
07-30-2009, 3:39 PM
Don't be too sure about the bold section. I was in a gun shop about 2 weeks ago and the dealer showed me his CCW and plain-as-day were the words "NOT VALID WITHIN 1000FT OF A SCHOOL". This would be area to talk with a 2A lawyer and local LEA if you had a CCW. This may not answer any questions, but if it keeps a GG out of jail I've helped.

As for the teacher thing, I'm a teacher and it sounds like I need to move to a shall-issue county in Southern Oregon. ;)

hmmm... I wonder if getting hoked up within 1000' of a school would be a GFSZ violation or would simply mean having your CCW revoked.

Decoligny
07-30-2009, 5:01 PM
hmmm... I wonder if getting hoked up within 1000' of a school would be a GFSZ violation or would simply mean having your CCW revoked.

If the CCW actually has the restriction written on it, then the license itself is invalid within 1,000 feet of a school. This would mean that you would be in violation of 626.9.

And if they didn't hit you for 626.9, they would get you for 12025 violation, illegaly concealed firearm.

Not a good thing.

bld0121
07-30-2009, 5:02 PM
I saw this is good ole' Sacto. The shop may have been within city limits, and I'm not 100% sure what the issuing county was (i either forgot to ask or forgot the response).

. . . My wife just graduated college and she's looking for work . . . there's jobs in AZ she's looking at . . . right now she has my full support. . .

Big Jake
07-30-2009, 6:06 PM
Don't be too sure about the bold section. I was in a gun shop about 2 weeks ago and the dealer showed me his CCW and plain-as-day were the words "NOT VALID WITHIN 1000FT OF A SCHOOL". This would be area to talk with a 2A lawyer and local LEA if you had a CCW. This may not answer any questions, but if it keeps a GG out of jail I've helped.

As for the teacher thing, I'm a teacher and it sounds like I need to move to a shall-issue county in Southern Oregon. ;)

If the ccw specifically says "NOT VALID WITHIN 1000 FT. OF A SCHOOL" then I guess you could not do that, howoever, I am sure that not all ccw say that!:confused:

bld0121
07-30-2009, 6:18 PM
I know what you mean . . .I'm hoping that not all ccw's say that. I guess that's the next battle after (hopefully) the discresionary ccw issuances in Yolo and Sacto are ruled unconstitutional. We shall see.

bodger
07-30-2009, 6:21 PM
If the ccw specifically says "NOT VALID WITHIN 1000 FT. OF A SCHOOL" then I guess you could not do that, howoever, I am sure that not all ccw say that!:confused:

If that restriction applies, you might as well not CCW in any urban area because you're sure to violate the 1000' rule.

What if you're pulled over by the CHP on a freeway and 500' feet down an embankment there is a school?

Especially in a place like LA County. They are so anti CCW here, it must piss them off big time that they have to honor permits issued in other jurisdictions.

Big Jake
07-30-2009, 6:38 PM
I suppose in the example of being pulled over 500 feet by a school you could argue that you were obeying the lawful order of a peace officer by pulling over.

I doubt that would even come up as long as you handled the stop correctly!

CpuFixrMan
07-30-2009, 7:07 PM
2. A person who lives within the safe school zone at his/her home/condo/apartement.

OK, if I understand this right... Since I live in an apartment, and all parking is detached (covered carport only), if this passes I can never take my gun out of my apartment, even in a locked case, since I would be within 1500 ft of an elementary school? Guess I'll be going to the range at 3am, in my Ninja suit. :mad:

motorhead
07-30-2009, 11:03 PM
i don't know about you guys but i find the court's narrowing of the definition of private property the most disturbing aspect of this argument. front yard fences are often restricted or even prohibited by local codes.

Decoligny
07-31-2009, 7:11 AM
i don't know about you guys but i find the court's narrowing of the definition of private property the most disturbing aspect of this argument. front yard fences are often restricted or even prohibited by local codes.

I will repeat this one more time. In regards to 626.9 your private property is your private property. The fenced in front yard is irrelavent.

People v. Overturf dealt with 12025 (concealed carry) which has the words "any public place" written right in the code.

626.9 does not have that terminology written into the code.

Therefore, your own front yard, even though it may be "a public place" is still your own private property which is expressly exempt from 626.9.

motorhead
07-31-2009, 8:15 AM
oop, my bad. maybe i inferred that from one of those "just to be safe" posts. the "any public place" language is disturbing when it can be allplied to private property but i see now how it doesn't apply to school zones.

Decoligny
07-31-2009, 8:19 AM
I know what you mean . . .I'm hoping that not all ccw's say that. I guess that's the next battle after (hopefully) the discresionary ccw issuances in Yolo and Sacto are ruled unconstitutional. We shall see.

It is not listed on all CCWs. Currently I think there is one County Sheriff who has stated that he will include the statement on all CCWs he issues.

However, if you are lucky enough to get a CCW from whatever county you live in, it is valid throughout the entire state, including in the school zones in the county where the "not valid in school zones" CCWs are being issued.

Decoligny
07-31-2009, 8:22 AM
I suppose in the example of being pulled over 500 feet by a school you could argue that you were obeying the lawful order of a peace officer by pulling over.

I doubt that would even come up as long as you handled the stop correctly!

Wouldn't be a vilid arguement if you were concealing and were indeed within 1,000 feet of a school zone. Even if they didn't get you on the 626.9 violation because you didn't know you were in a school zone, they would get you on a 12025 violation, because just being in the school zone invalidates the CCW.

KylaGWolf
07-31-2009, 5:33 PM
OK, if I understand this right... Since I live in an apartment, and all parking is detached (covered carport only), if this passes I can never take my gun out of my apartment, even in a locked case, since I would be within 1500 ft of an elementary school? Guess I'll be going to the range at 3am, in my Ninja suit. :mad:

Yeah I know that feeling.

Theseus
08-02-2009, 4:06 PM
OK, if I understand this right... Since I live in an apartment, and all parking is detached (covered carport only), if this passes I can never take my gun out of my apartment, even in a locked case, since I would be within 1500 ft of an elementary school? Guess I'll be going to the range at 3am, in my Ninja suit. :mad:

This would be the case. Since the new law would actually require the locked case to be in a vehicle.

I will repeat this one more time. In regards to 626.9 your private property is your private property. The fenced in front yard is irrelavent.

People v. Overturf dealt with 12025 (concealed carry) which has the words "any public place" written right in the code.

626.9 does not have that terminology written into the code.

Therefore, your own front yard, even though it may be "a public place" is still your own private property which is expressly exempt from 626.9.

People v Overturf does not rule 626.9, but People v Tapia does and it was what was used in my case to make the "public places" argument works in 626.9 as well. I was on private property and was not protected so it is not yet safe to assume you are either, especially in a school zone.

It is not case law, but unless I win my case at appeals level then they can and will likely do it to someone else.

Know the words "within 1000"? A court ruled that 626.9 is so important that it is not actually just "within 1000 feet" it means "1000 feet inclusive". I can't remember the case, but the deal was a car was pulled over and a portion of the car was within 1000 feet, but the actual firearm and the person carrying it was not. He was convicted because although the person and firearm were not "within 1000 feet" a portion of the vehicle was.

dwtt
08-05-2009, 6:44 PM
This may be a bit off topic, but Penal Code 626.9 is used by U.C. to prohibit the posession of firearms on University owned property, including the off campus university owned housing. I read 626.9 and it keeps referring to the 1000' around K-12 schools. If someone had an unloaded handgun in a locked case on university property, would they have a case that PC 626.9 doesn't apply?

Decoligny
08-05-2009, 7:18 PM
This may be a bit off topic, but Penal Code 626.9 is used by U.C. to prohibit the posession of firearms on University owned property, including the off campus university owned housing. I read 626.9 and it keeps referring to the 1000' around K-12 schools. If someone had an unloaded handgun in a locked case on university property, would they have a case that PC 626.9 doesn't apply?

626.9 section (c) lists the exceptions to 626.9 section (b). This is the section that deals with the K-12 school zone.

The sections that deal with University property are section (h) and (i). Take the time to read them and understand them fully. The locked container exception has nothing to do with section (h) and (i).

Penal Code 626.9
(h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for one, two, or three years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

dwtt
08-06-2009, 11:45 AM
I was reading the wrong section. Doh!
Thanks Decoligny.
I hope incorporation of Heller might change this, but I have doubts it will. Unlike the case involving public housing in San Francisco, does the fact that this is a state wide penal code prevent it being voided if Heller is incorporated?

Theseus
08-06-2009, 1:21 PM
Actually I think that if Nordyke us upheald as previous it might be good for us.

I think the argument is easily made that the county and state can control their property by prohibiting firearms, but not private property or by creating a zone.

A school may be sensitive, but not the hardware store across from it.