PDA

View Full Version : 1911 Hammer follow


jumbopanda
07-22-2009, 8:22 PM
How does one fix hammer follow on light triggers? I bought a EGW Ultimate Trigger kit and found that the hammer follows every now and then. I then tweaked the sear spring and I think I've resolved the problem but then if I use my 22lb recoil spring, I get follow again. So is there any way to prevent hammer follow other than increasing sear spring pressure? Or are heavy recoil springs just not meant to be used with light triggers?

SCMA-1
07-22-2009, 8:44 PM
I guess, the question is why are you using a 22lb recoil spring? Most 1911's are setup from the factory for 230 FMJ and come with a 16lb spring. If you are shooting very hot loads all the time, try dropping to an 18-20lb but use a nice thick shock buff.

I run 15-16lb in most of my 1911's; they're setup for carry loads or IPSC Major PF. I use shock buffs and never had an issue with frame battering.

If you've arc'ed the sh*** out of your sear spring and still get hammer follows, make sure your hammer/sear engagement isn't beat up; may need to be re-dressed. Also, you can try a Clark Custom 4-leaf sear spring which is a clever way to deal with hammer follow due to trigger bounce. I use these in my 1911's and they work well.

SCMA-1

J-cat
07-22-2009, 8:53 PM
Maybe he has a 10mm?

SCMA-1
07-22-2009, 9:05 PM
Maybe he has a 10mm?

That would explain it. We need to hear from him.

jumbopanda
07-22-2009, 9:15 PM
No, it's a .45, but I shoot a lot of high powered loads through it.

SCMA-1
07-22-2009, 9:22 PM
No, it's a .45, but I shoot a lot of high powered loads through it.

OK. 22lb is excessive for even the hottest 45's. Try dropping down to 18-20 and use a shock buff if you are worried about frame battering.

SCMA-1

jumbopanda
07-22-2009, 9:25 PM
OK. 22lb is excessive for even the hottest 45's. Try dropping down to 18-20 and use a shock buff if you are worried about frame battering.

SCMA-1

I've already got a shok buff in there, and am currently using a 18.5lb spring. The hammer follow seems to be gone but the trigger is still a wee bit creepy.

BamBam-31
07-22-2009, 10:49 PM
I personally wouldn't trust a hammer-sear combo w/ hammer follow. Just not something to mess around with. Get thee to a gunsmith!

B Strong
07-23-2009, 5:43 AM
This is the problem with shade tree gun plumbing.

I know you're an experienced guy, and this isn't meant to be a flame, but if you have to ask for advice on trouble shooting your plumbing work, you ought not to be doing the work in the first place.

First of all, unless you're shooting 10mm full house or .45 super, 22lbs is way over sprung for a .45 ACP, even with +P rounds. I run standard 16 lbs. springs in Government sized pistols, maybe an 18 in a Commander.

Second, all the "drop-in" trigger kits are half measure short cuts to a decent trigger, not a real solution. There is no substitute for a professional trigger job on any 1911 type pistol. Any "D-I" kit you can buy will provide a slightly lighter pull, with at most a bit of crispness and break, over a factory trigger.

Over the years, I've tried every kit that came down the pike, and none of them can match up to a Chow, Swenson, Wilson, Jardine, King's or Pachmayr tuned trigger in a 1911.

If you want to invest the time at a school to learn the art of 'smithing, and are willing to learn how to do the job by hand, you're gtg, but those drop in's are a waste of money, imo.

jumbopanda
07-25-2009, 2:20 AM
This is the problem with shade tree gun plumbing.

I know you're an experienced guy, and this isn't meant to be a flame, but if you have to ask for advice on trouble shooting your plumbing work, you ought not to be doing the work in the first place.

First of all, unless you're shooting 10mm full house or .45 super, 22lbs is way over sprung for a .45 ACP, even with +P rounds. I run standard 16 lbs. springs in Government sized pistols, maybe an 18 in a Commander.

Second, all the "drop-in" trigger kits are half measure short cuts to a decent trigger, not a real solution. There is no substitute for a professional trigger job on any 1911 type pistol. Any "D-I" kit you can buy will provide a slightly lighter pull, with at most a bit of crispness and break, over a factory trigger.

Over the years, I've tried every kit that came down the pike, and none of them can match up to a Chow, Swenson, Wilson, Jardine, King's or Pachmayr tuned trigger in a 1911.

If you want to invest the time at a school to learn the art of 'smithing, and are willing to learn how to do the job by hand, you're gtg, but those drop in's are a waste of money, imo.

This trigger kit isn't supposed to be a drop in, but I just put it in without tuning it because I don't have the proper tools to do so. Right now I only have hammer follow when I drop the slide on an empty chamber, gripping the gun loosely, and even so it only happens about 10% of the time. I couldn't get it to follow when chambering snap caps. I think it shouldn't be a problem, although it does still bother me a little.

This particular hammer comes out of the box with 0.019" hooks I think, so it's probably more prone to follow than others. I'd like to have a smith look at it if possible, but I'd like one that's reputable and local.

aplinker
07-25-2009, 2:29 AM
I've already got a shok buff in there, and am currently using a 18.5lb spring. The hammer follow seems to be gone but the trigger is still a wee bit creepy.

please don't use shok-buffs... plastic in a wear spot is not meant to be inside a gun. It's a great way to gum up the works.

GM4spd
07-25-2009, 6:56 AM
Hammer follow one time is one time too many. As another poster pointed out your pistol needs to be
repaired properly,spring rates have nothing to do with it. Your hammer and
sear engagement notches are not right. Pete

tankerman
07-25-2009, 7:05 AM
No, it's a .45, but I shoot a lot of high powered loads through it.
Weren't you warning possible ammo buyers against doing that, in some guy's F/S thread?

Anyway, sounds like your still having issues with your 1911 trigger jobs. I have a 'Power Custom' (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9853/Product/SERIES_I_STONING_FIXTURE) fixture you can borrow. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send it your way.

SCMA-1
07-25-2009, 8:32 AM
This trigger kit isn't supposed to be a drop in, but I just put it in without tuning it because I don't have the proper tools to do so. Right now I only have hammer follow when I drop the slide on an empty chamber, gripping the gun loosely, and even so it only happens about 10% of the time. I couldn't get it to follow when chambering snap caps. I think it shouldn't be a problem, although it does still bother me a little.

This particular hammer comes out of the box with 0.019" hooks I think, so it's probably more prone to follow than others. I'd like to have a smith look at it if possible, but I'd like one that's reputable and local.

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a bad practice, especially for 1911's with lightened trigger pulls, and may lead to damaging the hammer/sear engagement surfaces.

bin31z
07-25-2009, 8:48 AM
Hammer follow is often the sign of badly fitted sear to hammer engagement. Basically the rule is, the lighter the trigger pull you want, the more care has to go into getting everything fitted right. What is happening when the hammer is "following" is that the hammer is slipping off the sear, showing that the engagement of the hammer to sear is a "negative" or "neutral" relationship. You want a "positive" relationship, which means that at rest, the sear is pushing the hammer into the cocked position slightly. Whereas in a negative or neutral relationship, the sear is effective pushing the cocked hammer towards the decocked position, which will cause the hammer to fall with any vibration, like the one caused when the firearm is fired. Heavier springs will only help the situation if your engagement is set up correctly but you are getting follow due to super light springs that are unable to hold the sear, but I don't think this should be the problem in most 1911's as most manufactures fit them with adequate springs.

Remember that a 1911 is different kind of animal all together from most other gun, there is no true "drop in" for a 1911. Proper hand fitting of the 1911 is essential to correct operation. This is one of the reasons that the 1911 fell out of favor with the US military.

On a side note, I had a gunsmith try tune one of my 1911's (dan wesson PM7) to give a 3.5 - 4 pound trigger and he messed up so bad that I was getting full-auto fire, like in 3 round bursts out of the gun. Interesting :) but extremely scary when you pull the trigger once and before you know it, the pistol is pointed towards the sky from firing 3 shots and I was unprepared. If it had fire a whole clip like that, the gun might have ended up pointed at my head in the end. I sent it to a competent smith who fixed it right up.

bin31z
07-25-2009, 8:51 AM
Also, what the gentlemen above me said is true, a 1911 with a super light trigger should never have the slide dropped with an empty magazine, which will ruin your trigger job. Also, most people advise that you actually hold the hammer back and pull the trigger at the same time when dropping the slide and chambering a round to protect the sear on target guns with super light triggers. I don't really know about how effective this practice is, but it does seem kinda of dangerous.

Mikeb
07-25-2009, 9:16 AM
Simply holding the trigger back when you rack the slide to load a round will keep the sear off the hammer and the hammer is controlled by the disconnector until you realease the trigger and allow it to reset. They say this will help protect the sear engagement edges.
Get Kuhnhousens Shop Manual for every thing you want to know about the 1911 and much, much more.
take care
Mike

jumbopanda
07-25-2009, 2:08 PM
Weren't you warning possible ammo buyers against doing that, in some guy's F/S thread?

Anyway, sounds like your still having issues with your 1911 trigger jobs. I have a 'Power Custom' (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9853/Product/SERIES_I_STONING_FIXTURE) fixture you can borrow. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send it your way.

No, I was warning people against shooting them in weaker/older guns.

But in any case, that's awfully nice of you to offer me the fixture. I'm definitely tempted to take you up on that. Would you send the instructions as well? :)

Kruzr
07-25-2009, 4:41 PM
Your sear and hammer engagement is more than likely just fine. Since you noticed it was related to the spring weight...or more directly the force of the slide moving forward, it points to trigger bounce.

Try this: Put the heavy spring back in the gun and rack back the slide. Drop the slide and see if the hammer follows. You can do this on an empty chamber to function test the gun without harm provided you don't make a habit of it. If it does, then try it again but this time hold the trigger back as you drop the slide. If the hammer doesn't follow, it isn't the sear and hooks. You will need to increase the tension on the middle finger of the sear spring.

If the hammer drops when you hold the trigger back, THEN, you better take a hard look at the sear and hammer to see if there is damage to the surfaces and one got rounded. If not, then you need to increase the tension on the left finger that tensions the sear.

Sear springs seemingly have "memory" so you need to "over-bend" it to make sure it will stay in that position and add more tension.

tankerman
07-25-2009, 4:51 PM
No, I was warning people against shooting them in weaker/older guns.

But in any case, that's awfully nice of you to offer me the fixture. I'm definitely tempted to take you up on that. Would you send the instructions as well? :)
Yes, I have the instructions and would send them too.

Haven't heard of many old 1911A1 Colt's blowing up.

dfletcher
07-25-2009, 6:54 PM
How is your leaf spring pressure on your sear? If it's a touch weak, that with the heavy recoil spring might cause it to move just a bit. If you have enough sear engagement to have creep, you should have enough for the hammer to remain at full cock when the slide is released - assuming the sear notch angle on the hammer hasn't been altered.