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maxit
07-22-2009, 5:03 PM
Has anyone got backup for this stuff:

Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., mentioned a Washington state man given a concealed weapons permit despite a history of drug addiction and schizophrenia who in 2008 shot and wounded three people at a public festival. In 2007 a Cincinnati woman with a permit to carry a concealed weapon shot and killed a panhandler who asked her for 25 cents at a gas station, he said.

The Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group, released a study this week finding that concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens during the two-year period ending in April.

This was part of a story by Jim Abrams of AP - July 22, 2009. I have never heard of CCW's causing such problems, have you?

Much obliged,

Max It

sn0rky
07-22-2009, 5:07 PM
i read the same story, and although we havent heard of any of these incidents. we have a very biased opinion

cdtx2001
07-22-2009, 5:12 PM
Those statistics alone sound bad, but I'm sure that each case has it's own story behind it. However, where are the numbers that show CCW holders successfully defending themselves or others? I'm sure that number is much higher. Also, what is the total numbers of CCW holders? I'm sure those numbers above only account for one half, of one quarter, of one eight, of a half a percent of the total number of CCWs.

bodger
07-22-2009, 5:14 PM
According to the Brady Campaign, there are many evil-doers who have CCWs.
Here is their list:http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/ccw-crimes-misdeeds.pdf

The Wingnut
07-22-2009, 5:19 PM
Whatever their numbers are, they are far outnumbered on the law-abiding side by responsible CCW owners.

They are also a very small number compared to those who commit predatory acts, firearm or not, CCW or not.

They are a minor exception to a rule and not a mandate for 2nd amendment infringement - not that such a thing should ever exist.

bulgron
07-22-2009, 5:20 PM
This question has already been asked and answered in this forum. See this (http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m7d21-Lies-damn-lies-and-VPC-statistics) article for a debunking of the "study."

dfletcher
07-22-2009, 5:31 PM
Has anyone got backup for this stuff:

Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., mentioned a Washington state man given a concealed weapons permit despite a history of drug addiction and schizophrenia who in 2008 shot and wounded three people at a public festival. In 2007 a Cincinnati woman with a permit to carry a concealed weapon shot and killed a panhandler who asked her for 25 cents at a gas station, he said.

The Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group, released a study this week finding that concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens during the two-year period ending in April.

This was part of a story by Jim Abrams of AP - July 22, 2009. I have never heard of CCW's causing such problems, have you?

Much obliged,

Max It


I'm always a bit suspect of these stories - remember when Ronald Reagan made it a point of saying someone sued AT & T for big $$$'s over a stuck phone booth door? Turns out there was much more to the story including someone being trapped inside & hurt. So it could easily be that the "panhandler" was 6' 7", carrying a screwdriver and had his pants down around his ankles at the time he was "asking" for $.25.

The schizophrenic/drug person is a bit tougher to explain, but one presumes he went through some sort of background check - maybe all sorts of doctor's and psychiatrists pronounced him cured?

No mention of what those 44 people were doing when shot - stealing, breaking into homes, car jacking? We're supposed to assume they're good folks?

And of course they released the "report" this week and AP printed it - the day of the CCW vote in the Senate.

bwiese
07-22-2009, 5:37 PM
And aside from refutation above by Bulgron, let's just think about it: if someone is gonna shoot someone illegally (i.e, attack, not self-defense) why would that person worry about permits/licensure?

Bottom line: he wouldn't. So even if a CCW holder shot someone illegally, the CCW didn't make him do it, nor did it increase propensity toward that act. The relative scale of the offense (murder) - compared to any crimes involving absence of CCW permit - ensures no person of even remote rationality is gonna be worried about the trivia in the face of the major.

bodger
07-22-2009, 5:52 PM
And aside from refutation above by Bulgron, let's just think about it: if someone is gonna shoot someone illegally (i.e, attack, not self-defense) why would that person worry about permits/licensure?

Bottom line: he wouldn't. So even if a CCW holder shot someone illegally, the CCW didn't make him do it, nor did it increase propensity toward that act. The relative scale of the offense (murder) - compared to any crimes involving absence of CCW permit - ensures no person of even remote rationality is gonna be worried about the trivia in the face of the major.

If only the legislators would see the logic and common sense and facts in what you just wrote.

Bruce
07-22-2009, 6:14 PM
"are there evil CCW holders?"



Yes and she has a website: http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/

squishyhead
07-22-2009, 6:51 PM
This question has already been asked and answered in this forum. See this (http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m7d21-Lies-damn-lies-and-VPC-statistics) article for a debunking of the "study."

This IS a fantastic article that I read earlier today. To the OP, there are several key points that this article uses to directly refute the "study" by the VPC. First, their "study" used news articles as their only source of information. There is no gaurantee the stories cited involved actual CCW holders, or that they even occured in the way they claim to have. Second, many of their cases didn't offer any conclusions. While the synopsis of the shooting may seem tragic/bad, the outcomes may have been that they were good shootings. Third, the study included killings that didn't involve firearms simply because the accused allegedly had a CCW. Forth (and MOST important), if this bogus "study" did actually turn out to be 100% true, it PROVES that CCW holders as a whole (6 million plus) are less likely to kill you than the average joe. Give it a read, spread the word!

yellowfin
07-22-2009, 6:57 PM
"are there evil CCW holders?"



Yes and she has a website: http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/ See also http://schumer.senate.gov. All the evil of Feinslime plus extra added smarmyness and self satisfaction of having one of maybe a dozen NYC CCW's under the Sullivan Law. :mad:

Linh
07-22-2009, 7:17 PM
And aside from refutation above by Bulgron, let's just think about it: if someone is gonna shoot someone illegally (i.e, attack, not self-defense) why would that person worry about permits/licensure?

Bottom line: he wouldn't. So even if a CCW holder shot someone illegally, the CCW didn't make him do it, nor did it increase propensity toward that act. The relative scale of the offense (murder) - compared to any crimes involving absence of CCW permit - ensures no person of even remote rationality is gonna be worried about the trivia in the face of the major.

Yep I totally agree....like if someone wanted to commit a crime and doesn't have a ccw then he's not going to commit the crime.

I understand if a person is anti gun it's their choice but why make up lies on assault guns, hi cap, rifle shoud etc and they want to ban stuff that they don't even know what it is.

Seriously who in their right mind support these type of mindless people.

jimh
07-22-2009, 7:25 PM
even if those numbers are true, someone needs to compare them to the LEO murder rates over the same period :)

SAN compnerd
07-22-2009, 7:42 PM
This question has already been asked and answered in this forum. See this (http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m7d21-Lies-damn-lies-and-VPC-statistics) article for a debunking of the "study."

The graph you asked for is in the above link.

Old Timer
07-23-2009, 5:13 AM
As long as there are evil people there will be evil CCW holders. But that, of course, is not the point. When people do wrong they should be held accountable for their actions. When CCW holders do something stupid, such as we saw in Utah the other day, they should be held accountable. When driver's license holders do something stupid they should be held accountable. When consumers of alcohol do something stupid they should be held accountable.

What we, as a society, must remember is that it is the person, not the object, that is doing the "evil" or stupidity. We don't outlaw automobiles because some drivers drive stupidly. We don't outlaw alcohol because some drinkers do so irresponsibly. And we shouldn't trash the Constitution because some gun owners, and even some CCW holders, act irresponsibly.