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copperhead
07-22-2009, 10:38 AM
Hello all, I'm having a fairly heated debate with some pro gun control know-nothings regarding legal weapons used in crime vs illegal (unregistered)weapons used in crime. Their arguement is that most crime involves legal weapons owned by that person, yet I can't find where he would have gotten that info. Hope it isn't......does anyone know about this? Or does anyone know where I could find these statistics?

PatriotnMore
07-22-2009, 10:45 AM
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

Offenders


According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -


a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%




During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
On average, State inmates possessing a firearm received sentences of 18 years, while those without a weapon had an average sentence of 12 years.
Among prisoners carrying a firearm during their crime, 40% of State inmates and 56% of Federal inmates received a sentence enhancement because of the firearm.

Vacaville
07-22-2009, 10:56 AM
Would be nice if that 80% could be broken down further into it's sub-categories.

Your pro-control friends have no idea what they are talking about. Tell them to stop getting their facts from CSI Miami and to read up on a subject before they are willing to argue about it.

copperhead
07-22-2009, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=Vacaville;2808311]Would be nice if that 80% could be broken down further into it's sub-categories.

I hear you on that, that's exactly what I want separated, and whether or not those firearms from family or friends were even legal/registered.

timdps
07-22-2009, 11:11 AM
Need to differentiate between unregistered legal and registered legal firearms.

Given the differences in registration laws between different states, there are probably far more legally owned, unregistered firearms than there are legally owned registered firearms. Both of these numbers dwarf the number of non-legally owned firearms.

Even in California only handguns are registered. All of the handguns that existed in CA before registration was required still owned by there owners at the time of the law change are still legally owned, unregistered firearms. Long guns (non-AW) are not registered at all in CA, so ALL of the long guns in CA are legally owned, unregistered firearms.

Don't fall into the "registered" trap.

Tim

copperhead
07-22-2009, 11:23 AM
Need to differentiate between unregistered legal and registered legal firearms.

Given the differences in registration laws between different states, there are probably far more legally owned, unregistered firearms than there are legally owned registered firearms. Both of these numbers dwarf the number of non-legally owned firearms.

Even in California only handguns are registered. All of the handguns that existed in CA before registration was required still owned by there owners at the time of the law change are still legally owned, unregistered firearms. Long guns (non-AW) are not registered at all in CA, so ALL of the long guns in CA are legally owned, unregistered firearms.

Don't fall into the "registered" trap.

Tim


I see, my bad. I should rephrase my question: How many crimes use illegal firearms?

Hunter4life1990
07-22-2009, 11:25 AM
i understand how hanguns are "registered" to the owner while long guns are not. How do i explain that to someone tho, because people think because you DROS your automatically registered in some database or sumthing.how would explain that,even my father who is VERY pro gun thinks that every firearm purchase is "registered", and i cant explain it well enough to sway that notion.

Jonathan Doe
07-22-2009, 4:55 PM
When I run the serial numbers of the guns used in crime, I find many guns do not have any record on file in AFS. I see some guns do not have serial numbers period, maybe lunch box guns. Some guns have serial numbers obliterated beyond restoration. Many guns that are old do not have record on file either.

Librarian
07-22-2009, 6:09 PM
i understand how hanguns are "registered" to the owner while long guns are not. How do i explain that to someone tho, because people think because you DROS your automatically registered in some database or sumthing.how would explain that,even my father who is VERY pro gun thinks that every firearm purchase is "registered", and i cant explain it well enough to sway that notion.

DROS for long guns does not collect make, model, caliber or serial number. It asks only for the number of the long guns and whether there is a waiting period exemption.

The Federal 4473 asks for that info - but 4473s are not (supposed to be, legally) collected into a database. As often as BATF seems to want this, and as often as some Congresscritter proposes it, and then it gets shot down, I believe we'd know of any illegal database by now.

So unless some detail about the gun is recorded and linked to the buyer, there is no 'registration' of that gun.

A buyer might return the buyer's info card to a manufacturer, for some reason, and that would be a kind of 'registration', but it would be non-government and voluntary.

Librarian
07-22-2009, 6:13 PM
When I run the serial numbers of the guns used in crime, I find many guns do not have any record on file in AFS. I see some guns do not have serial numbers period, maybe lunch box guns. Some guns have serial numbers obliterated beyond restoration. Many guns that are old do not have record on file either.

And pre-1968, there was no requirement to have a serial number, though many manufacturers did use them.

Basically, there is no comprehensive data on whether a firearm was legally acquired by a criminal actor.

Anyone who claims to know either way needs to be challenged on his/her data source.

AJAX22
07-22-2009, 6:17 PM
And pre-1968, there was no requirement to have a serial number, though many manufacturers did use them.



To complicate that matter even further, some manufacturers pulled stunts like making multiple firearms with the same serial number (occasionally with a slightly different prefix etc.)

crazy stuff.

Most firearms available on the open market in free states are not registered or traceable.

One Shot, One Dropped
07-23-2009, 12:00 AM
Beat me to it...
Need to differentiate between unregistered legal and registered legal firearms.

Given the differences in registration laws between different states, there are probably far more legally owned, unregistered firearms than there are legally owned registered firearms. Both of these numbers dwarf the number of non-legally owned firearms.

Even in California only handguns are registered. All of the handguns that existed in CA before registration was required still owned by there owners at the time of the law change are still legally owned, unregistered firearms. Long guns (non-AW) are not registered at all in CA, so ALL of the long guns in CA are legally owned, unregistered firearms.

Don't fall into the "registered" trap.

Tim

cousinkix1953
07-23-2009, 1:57 AM
Hello all, I'm having a fairly heated debate with some pro gun control know-nothings regarding legal weapons used in crime vs illegal (unregistered)weapons used in crime. Their arguement is that most crime involves legal weapons owned by that person, yet I can't find where he would have gotten that info. Hope it isn't......does anyone know about this? Or does anyone know where I could find these statistics?
Only a small percentage of people ever commit a crime with their own guns, which are registered in their names. Criminals do use a lot of stolen firearms which are registered to somebody else. Gun stores have been keeping a registry of their sales for decades. Decide for yourself, if you believe the FBI's denials about not compiling an illegal list of gun buyers. This is the same agency, whose leader accused law abiding gun owners of selling firearms to the Mexican Drug Cartels. And whadda you know, the BATFE arrests a FBI and a crooked El Paso county sheriff's deputy for selling guns to those criminals, without a FFL and off the books...