PDA

View Full Version : Had a run in with BLM Rangers


Timmay
07-22-2009, 8:27 AM
Was out on some BLM land to do some quad ridding and shooting. Now just to make this clear, when we were at the camp site we had our weapons locked up and put away. It wasn't until we got to the known shooting area did we shoot our weapons. (I say this because the "camping" area was an OHV camping area with a few groups spread throught)

Anyways we had just got done doing some quad riding when a two BLM Rangers came up to our camp site. They had been called because we had an encounter with some other people out there (they decided to park between 4 main lanes of travel to and from the OHV riding area and the sand is very dusty on those well traveled lanes so we "dusted" their camp site, not on purpose) to investigate a complaint that had been called in on us. The first Ranger starting asking questions about where we were from and what not and then asked if we had weapons and/or assualt rifles which made me a little weary of their intentions. I told them we had long guns and hand guns all locked up and put away in the toy hauler and trucks. He said nothing after that and began to ask us if we new the rules and what not and made small talk. The other Ranger was walking around checking stickers out and what not and asked the same question about the weapons. If we had any and if we had assualty rifles, I told him the same thing we told the first Ranger. After some small talk we pointed out where we thought the complaint would have came from and pointed out their location was stupid and they agreed and just made some more small talk, found out were had no beer, had kids with us (older teens), were all prior service and then I assumed felt we were good to go so they left. My question is when I am on BLM land or designated OHV camp areas (controlled my BLM) what are my rights when it comes to my weapons and what not. Do I tell them exactly what I have and am I obligated by law to show them the weapons if they ask to see them? I was really caught of guard and after hearing about some issues with BLM Rangers and LEGAL AR's getting confiscated I just want to know what my options would have been in the above mentioned situation and what reach they have on me while I am visiting BLM OHV areas.

Thanks.

Gator Monroe
07-22-2009, 8:36 AM
If Obama Care stalls , look for Firearms restrictions to supplant it .

DTOM CA!
07-22-2009, 8:55 AM
I would love to know the best way to respond to Law Enforcement (with out sounding like a jerk) to tell them it is none of there business where I came from, what I am doing out here and do I have guns or alcohol with me. The complaint was not about guns so IMO they were just fishing around to see if they could catch with something else. Why didn't they ask you about bombs or drugs or your legal status or fireworks. In your situation the Rangers were cool (most of them are IMO) But I would like to tell them in a nice way it is none of your business !

Gator Monroe
07-22-2009, 9:05 AM
I would love to know the best way to respond to Law Enforcement (with out sounding like a jerk) to tell them it is none of there business where I came from, what I am doing out here and do I have guns or alcohol with me. The complaint was not about guns so IMO they were just fishing around to see if they could catch with something else. Why didn't they ask you about bombs or drugs or your legal status or fireworks. In your situation the Rangers were cool (most of them are IMO) But I would like to tell them in a nice way it is none of your business !

In time of war (& open borders) I believe that It's my responsability to answer their questions, and reaffirm their ability to question the Iranians they find attempting to cause damage to power transmission towers in remote areas or Mexican Nationals walking through woods with irrigation equipment ...

Timmay
07-22-2009, 9:11 AM
I don't mind them doing their job, it is after all their job. But what I am looking for is where the red line lies. They asked if I had guns AND Assualt Rifles. So do I tell them no I have a long gun, or is my legal AR an Assualt Weapon to them? Now if I tell them long gun and they see it is a AR would they now consider me a lier and confiscate my weapons?

cineski
07-22-2009, 9:15 AM
I wish there was a more powerful way to say this, but good point.

If Obama Care stalls , look for Firearms restrictions to supplant it .

Decoligny
07-22-2009, 9:16 AM
Was out on some BLM land to do some quad ridding and shooting. Now just to make this clear, when we were at the camp site we had our weapons locked up and put away. It wasn't until we got to the known shooting area did we shoot our weapons. (I say this because the "camping" area was an OHV camping area with a few groups spread throught)

Anyways we had just got done doing some quad riding when a two BLM Rangers came up to our camp site. They had been called because we had an encounter with some other people out there (they decided to park between 4 main lanes of travel to and from the OHV riding area and the sand is very dusty on those well traveled lanes so we "dusted" their camp site, not on purpose) to investigate a complaint that had been called in on us. The first Ranger starting asking questions about where we were from and what not and then asked if we had weapons and/or assualt rifles which made me a little weary of their intentions. I told them we had long guns and hand guns all locked up and put away in the toy hauler and trucks. He said nothing after that and began to ask us if we new the rules and what not and made small talk. The other Ranger was walking around checking stickers out and what not and asked the same question about the weapons. If we had any and if we had assualty rifles, I told him the same thing we told the first Ranger. After some small talk we pointed out where we thought the complaint would have came from and pointed out their location was stupid and they agreed and just made some more small talk, found out were had no beer, had kids with us (older teens), were all prior service and then I assumed felt we were good to go so they left. My question is when I am on BLM land or designated OHV camp areas (controlled my BLM) what are my rights when it comes to my weapons and what not. Do I tell them exactly what I have and am I obligated by law to show them the weapons if they ask to see them? I was really caught of guard and after hearing about some issues with BLM Rangers and LEGAL AR's getting confiscated I just want to know what my options would have been in the above mentioned situation and what reach they have on me while I am visiting BLM OHV areas.

Thanks.

As they are law enforcement officers, once you told them "we have long guns and handguns locked up in the toy hauler and trucks" they could have legally demanded to inspect the guns in the truck to do a 12031(e) check. The guns that were in the "toy hauler" are another story assuming that it is also an RV with sleeping quarters. As such it is considered to be your temporary residence, and is supposed to be secure from search without a warrant.

One phrase to commit to memory, "I have nothing illegal in my vehicles".

Glock22Fan
07-22-2009, 9:30 AM
I don't mind them doing their job, it is after all their job. But what I am looking for is where the red line lies. They asked if I had guns AND Assualt Rifles. So do I tell them no I have a long gun, or is my legal AR an Assualt Weapon to them? Now if I tell them long gun and they see it is a AR would they now consider me a lier and confiscate my weapons?


This is why, politely, you don't tell them anything except for the phrase Decoligny mentions,

"I have nothing illegal (in my truck and trailer). I am not doing, and do not intend to do, anything illegal."

I had to tell a British customs officer the same thing (except it was a yacht) four or five times over before he got the message. We still parted on civil terms.

savasyn
07-22-2009, 9:34 AM
Are registered AWs illegal on BLM land now? I thought they were legal out there.

sorensen440
07-22-2009, 9:37 AM
Remember

You always have the right to remain silent

Glock22Fan
07-22-2009, 9:46 AM
Are registered AWs illegal on BLM land now? I thought they were legal out there.

Not recommending anything illegal, but if they are out of sight and you don't say you have them, it doesn't matter whether they are or not or (perhaps more importantly) whether the ranger knows whether they are or not.

Para45
07-22-2009, 9:47 AM
....One phrase to commit to memory, "I have nothing illegal in my vehicles".

+1 :thumbsup:

faveson
07-22-2009, 9:53 AM
rangers are the worst when it comes to throwing their badges around. why? it has something to do with being the most disgruntled LE force in existence. they think theyll get promoted faster by hoseing as many citizens as possible. i happen to be a deputy and they screw with us whenever we go riding in glamis or shooting in the desert.

i'd like to be able to avoid contact with them all together but they seem to be everywhere.

they may confiscate your guns if given the chance but your "what nots" are perfectly safe and legal to carry XD LOL

Greg-Dawg
07-22-2009, 9:55 AM
The only way to clearly answer an LEO is from their clear line of questioning.

LEO: Do you have any assault rifles?

You: Can you please define "Assault Rifle" sir?

savasyn
07-22-2009, 10:00 AM
Not recommending anything illegal, but if they are out of sight and you don't say you have them, it doesn't matter whether they are or not or (perhaps more importantly) whether the ranger knows whether they are or not.

And if you are in a legal BLM shooting area shooting your legally reg'd rifle and they encounter you while you are shooting one?

My question, I guess, should have been: Does the BLM specifically state that they do not allow registered weapons on their land?

bombadillo
07-22-2009, 10:03 AM
Nope, as soon as they hear phrases like "can you please define assault rifle sir?" they have some kind of cause to search you as they are bored and all. By definition, you can say no at this point because none of us with OLL's have "Assault rifles" we only have semi automatic .223 rifles.

MudCamper
07-22-2009, 10:17 AM
AMy question, I guess, should have been: Does the BLM specifically state that they do not allow registered weapons on their land?

No. There is no federal code prohibiting any particular type of firearm on BLM lands. There are only safe shooting regulations. And all California State law applies. However, the BLM rangers have proven to be quite ignorant of the law, and have confiscated perfectly legal rifles repeatedly in the past.

savasyn
07-22-2009, 10:27 AM
I just got this 2003 pdf off of the BLM site, it's the top link here:
http://www.blm.gov/search/?query=assault+weapon&submit=&adv=1&narrow=pr%3Adefault&pr=VALUE_HERE&dropXSL=yes

The important part:

"In accordance with this provision, BLM-California's policy for the use of assault weapons is:
Persons have the permission of the BLM to possess and use firearms, including lawfully registered assault weapons, on BLM-administered public lands except when prohibited by other applicable laws and regulations."

Also on this link, they say possession of unreg'd AWs is illegal(but we knew that), so I have to assume that the BLM policy listed above is still valid:
http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/ukiah/regposting.print.html

MrClamperSir
07-22-2009, 10:34 AM
Do I tell them exactly what I have and am I obligated by law to show them the weapons if they ask to see them?

As stated before, tell them you have nothing illegal and leave it at that.

Edit: study up on your rights in any given environment.

Nodda Duma
07-22-2009, 10:40 AM
Out of curiosity, where did you have the encounter? ie what part of CA?

-Jason

Timmay
07-22-2009, 2:33 PM
Out of curiosity, where did you have the encounter? ie what part of CA?

-Jason

Up near Ridgecrest. It was a legally configured, BB'd AR. I never said registered Assault Weapon. To us it's a long gun, to them it's an AR. So when I volunteered the information that I indeed had guns, I was also asked specifically if I had any Assault Weapons. A legally configured AR with a BB is still an Assault Weapon to some one ignorant of the laws so, once again, my question is if I was asked "Do you have any Assault Weapons?" (after we already told them we have guns from the original question) what would you tell them? Now if I told them no, I have a long gun. And for some reason it gets to the point that they inspect them would I be in trouble (because they are ignorant to the laws) and think I have an unregistered Assault Weapon?

I know my rights, but what caught me off guard was being asked specifically if I had an Assault Weapon. That threw me off a bit. They weren't a-holes to us in anyway they later said the area we picked is a hot spot for problems so they tend to assume the worst when they come up to a camp area, and trust me the next morning I understood what they meant when ever 40 feet I spotted beer cans and what not.

The Toy hauler did have sleeping quarters and I did not know that it would be considered my temporary place of residence so that is good to know.

Thanks everyone who has chimed in. This isn't a huge concern of mine. I don't break, nor do I plan of breaking laws and rarely ever bring beer when I camp. Beer+guns+quads= no good IMHO.

-aK-
07-22-2009, 2:53 PM
No. If you don't have an assault weapon then you don't have an assault weapon. Period. Words do have true meanings.

SteveH
07-22-2009, 3:12 PM
While investigating any disturbance between two or more parties the cops will ask about weapons, drugs and alcohol. Expect it.

Doesnt matter if its between husband in wife, rival gangs or rival camp sites.

MudCamper
07-22-2009, 3:22 PM
While investigating any disturbance between two or more parties the cops will ask about weapons, drugs and alcohol. Expect it.

Doesnt matter if its between husband in wife, rival gangs or rival camp sites.

And of course we have the constitutional right not to answer any of their questions. Answer all of their questions with more questions. If they persist then flat out tell them you won't answer any of their questions.

Librarian
07-22-2009, 3:23 PM
I just got this 2003 pdf off of the BLM site, it's the top link here:
http://www.blm.gov/search/?query=assault+weapon&submit=&adv=1&narrow=pr%3Adefault&pr=VALUE_HERE&dropXSL=yes

The important part:

"In accordance with this provision, BLM-California's policy for the use of assault weapons is:
Persons have the permission of the BLM to possess and use firearms, including lawfully registered assault weapons, on BLM-administered public lands except when prohibited by other applicable laws and regulations."

Also on this link, they say possession of unreg'd AWs is illegal(but we knew that), so I have to assume that the BLM policy listed above is still valid:
http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/ukiah/regposting.print.html

Thanks for the links. I snagged them and put up a very brief page at the Calguns Foundation Wiki.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_on_Federal_Bureau_of_Land_Management_Prop erty

xxdabroxx
07-22-2009, 3:24 PM
No. If you don't have an assault weapon then you don't have an assault weapon. Period. Words do have true meanings.

A BB'd AR is NOT an assault weapon so long as it is legally configured. Do not confuse this.

MudCamper
07-22-2009, 3:29 PM
A BB'd AR is NOT an assault weapon so long as it is legally configured. Do not confuse this.

But this is in fact the issue at hand. The BLM rangers are are either too ignorant or too arrogant to care. An AR or an AK is an assault weapon to many of them regardless. I may sound cynical but I've had run-ins with these a-holes (not gun related) plus how many lawful rifles have been taken by BLM rangers claiming they were assault weapons.

Nodda Duma
07-22-2009, 4:31 PM
Thought you might have been up here. Was it a younger BLM agent? There's a new BLM agent that showed up to the area who likes to ask about so-called assault weapons. He had his butt chewed out by his supervisor over this issue last year, and was told to go to the local gun store to be educated on OLL's. I ended up supplying that gun store with the flowchart and info from Calguns to pass on to him. All other LEO's (and the local prosecuting attorney's office) in the area are aware of and cool with OLL's as long as you are running a legal gun.

If your OLL is properly configured then you have nothing to worry about. He should be well aware of OLL's now, and would probably simply look very closely to ensure that it is legally configured and give you a hard time about it. If you find that it's really bugging you, you could call the local BLM office and ask to speak to the supervisor about it. Maybe the guy will get his butt chewed out again? :P

-Jason

Up near Ridgecrest. It was a legally configured, BB'd AR. I never said registered Assault Weapon. To us it's a long gun, to them it's an AR. So when I volunteered the information that I indeed had guns, I was also asked specifically if I had any Assault Weapons. A legally configured AR with a BB is still an Assault Weapon to some one ignorant of the laws so, once again, my question is if I was asked "Do you have any Assault Weapons?" (after we already told them we have guns from the original question) what would you tell them? Now if I told them no, I have a long gun. And for some reason it gets to the point that they inspect them would I be in trouble (because they are ignorant to the laws) and think I have an unregistered Assault Weapon?

Sinestr
07-22-2009, 4:42 PM
[QUOTE= Beer+guns+quads= no good IMHO.[/QUOTE]

You just have to put these in the proper order. Guns + Quads + Beer back at camp after rding and shooting.

ScottB
07-22-2009, 5:59 PM
So I am still unclear. Is it legal (as in a statute I can point to in a code book) that you can possess/use registered AW's on BLM land - at least BLM land where you can use any other kind of rifle?

SchooBaka
07-22-2009, 6:59 PM
While shooting at the south cow mountain range a few months ago I was confronted by a ranger. He seemed agitated from the get go; came flying up in his truck and jumped out saying he needed to inspect our firearms. He to specifically asked me if I had any assault rifles. I said no and showed him my 45 USP, said all we had was this, a garand and my buddies ruger 9mm.

Gator Monroe
07-22-2009, 7:01 PM
While shooting at the south cow mountain range a few months ago I was confronted by a ranger. He seemed agitated from the get go; came flying up in his truck and jumped out saying he needed to inspect our firearms. He to specifically asked me if I had any assault rifles. I said no and showed him my 45 USP, said all we had was this, a garand and my buddies ruger 9mm.

I have little doubt that if you had my Retro AR (603) build on you he would have confiscated it , BB or no BB ...

SchooBaka
07-22-2009, 7:47 PM
I considered bringing my Wasr 2 but it's been having ftl issues, so I left it at home. After that confrontation I was glad I didn't bring it.

Librarian
07-22-2009, 8:20 PM
So I am still unclear. Is it legal (as in a statute I can point to in a code book) that you can possess/use registered AW's on BLM land - at least BLM land where you can use any other kind of rifle?

Doesn't work that way; except for licenses, laws generally tell you what you CANNOT do or what you MUST do.

Post above already linked to BLM's policy (http://www.blm.gov/ca/dir/pdfs/2003/im/CAIM2003-049.pdf) on registered 'assault weapons'.

fairfaxjim
07-22-2009, 8:59 PM
Policy be damned, it seems that some of the BLM rangers in CA have had a bean up their butts lately about AW's and experience proves that being a legal OLL or other legal configuration of something that resembles AW's is fair game to them. It almost seems too coincidental and spread across various BLM jurisdictions to be attributable to a few cowboy or uninformed BLM personell. There was some "off the ranch" business a year or more ago by BLM district managers going beyond the official "if it's legal in CA and if it's an AW it has to be registered" policy to "no OLL's" I seem to recall seing a memo from the head ranger/manager that should have reined in that behavior, but field reports lately seem to indicate it didn't stick.

I know I was cautioned at Cow Mountain about a year or so ago by what appeared to be "regulars" to be "very careful" with my OLL rifles if the ranger showed up. I also know there have been confiscations that resulted in returned rifles recently. I would hope the "right people" are keeping an eye on this and would be willing to bring some pressure to bear on the situation as a whole, and not just the great work they have done in assisting getting firearms returned in individual cases.

I'm not paranoid, but they may just be after us OLL users.

packnrat
07-22-2009, 9:57 PM
Glad were I shoot is oll frendly.

But nothing wrong with camping with quads, guns, beer, hard booze.
Just never mix.
No matter what or were I camp. ALL guns are put up. Before the beer comes out.
Never ride the quad with beer, quads are parked in camp first.
But I have a class A to protect.

Time and a place for everything. Not all can be mixed.

Shotgun Man
07-22-2009, 10:12 PM
I've concluded that the best response in a situation such as the op's where you have tons of guns locked in a container is to tell the cop that you're not going to answer any questions about guns.

"Do you have any guns in the trailer?"

"I'm not gonna answer any questions about guns."

Maestro Pistolero
07-22-2009, 10:20 PM
I've concluded that the best response in a situation such as the op's where you have tons of guns locked in a container is to tell the cop that you're not going to answer any questions about guns.

"Do you have any guns in the trailer?"

"I'm not gonna answer any questions about guns."

I like it. It is direct, non-evasive and honest. What could possibly be the next question?

"Why not?"
"What are you hiding?"

No further answers are called for.

Is there anything else I can do for you officer? Have a nice day.

ScottB
07-22-2009, 10:33 PM
Doesn't work that way; except for licenses, laws generally tell you what you CANNOT do or what you MUST do.

Post above already linked to BLM's policy (http://www.blm.gov/ca/dir/pdfs/2003/im/CAIM2003-049.pdf) on registered 'assault weapons'.

OK, by that link, it appears that the BLM has stated affirmatively that they permit legally owned AWs to be possessed and used unless prohibited by other laws. Fair enough. I will print that letter and keep it with me when on BLM land.

Thanks for the link.

Shotgun Man
07-22-2009, 10:38 PM
I like it. It is direct, non-evasive and honest. What could possibly be the next question?

"Why not?"
"What are you hiding?"

No further answers are called for.

Is there anything else I can do for you officer? Have a nice day.

I got a severe chuckle. I thought you were thinking that the cop was saying why don't ya have some guns in your trailer?

Timmay
07-22-2009, 10:44 PM
A BB'd AR is NOT an assault weapon so long as it is legally configured. Do not confuse this.

Thanks, but there is no confusion on my part. My concern is their confusion.

Thought you might have been up here. Was it a younger BLM agent? There's a new BLM agent that showed up to the area who likes to ask about so-called assault weapons. He had his butt chewed out by his supervisor over this issue last year, and was told to go to the local gun store to be educated on OLL's. I ended up supplying that gun store with the flowchart and info from Calguns to pass on to him. All other LEO's (and the local prosecuting attorney's office) in the area are aware of and cool with OLL's as long as you are running a legal gun.

If your OLL is properly configured then you have nothing to worry about. He should be well aware of OLL's now, and would probably simply look very closely to ensure that it is legally configured and give you a hard time about it. If you find that it's really bugging you, you could call the local BLM office and ask to speak to the supervisor about it. Maybe the guy will get his butt chewed out again? :P

-Jason

There was two who were on foot and one looked young, he was the one that asked us a second time after his partner already asked us and he seemed a little on edge with us. At first he didn't believe us that we had no beer, but come on!! It was around 110 degrees that weekend and 5-8 hours of hard quad riding with a few hours of shooting the last thing on my mind was beer.

LiquidFlorian
07-22-2009, 11:01 PM
Only a slightly off topic question: is it legal to open carry on BLM land?

anthonyca
07-22-2009, 11:50 PM
Have any of you used the "I have nothing illegal" or "I am not going to answer questions about guns" responses before? If so what were the officers reactions and body language? I have stated very politely my constitutional rights in different situations and I thought I was going to get jumped when his back up showed up. First time in my life I was TRULY bullied as I always fought back growing up even if I knew I was going to lose. That was a terrible feeling.

LiquidFlorian
07-23-2009, 12:02 AM
Have any of you used the "I have nothing illegal" or "I am not going to answer questions about guns" responses before? If so what were the officers reactions and body language? I have stated very politely my constitutional rights in different situations and I thought I was going to get jumped when his back up showed up. First time in my life I was TRULY bullied as I always fought back growing up even if I knew I was going to lose. That was a terrible feeling.

I had a similar situation with a consent to search my vehicle request I denied. Thought I was going to get tuned up or booked for something. The LEO made it a point to tell all his back up and the supervisor when he showed up. Didn't know if he wanted to guilt me or intimidate me into consenting... Good times...

I'm just wondering what you do when your out on a trail and you want to protect yourself against any of the aforementioned South American nationals w/ irrigation equipment, and Dudley Do-Right shows up.

anthonyca
07-23-2009, 12:17 AM
I had a similar situation with a consent to search my vehicle request I denied. Thought I was going to get tuned up or booked for something. The LEO made it a point to tell all his back up and the supervisor when he showed up. Didn't know if he wanted to guilt me or intimidate me into consenting... Good times...

I'm just wondering what you do when your out on a trail and you want to protect yourself against any of the aforementioned South American nationals w/ irrigation equipment, and Dudley Do-Right shows up.

Did he end up searching with out your consent or did he make up some PC?

LiquidFlorian
07-23-2009, 12:25 AM
Did he end up searching with out your consent or did he make up some PC?

No, he let me go with the citation and things ended some what amicably. :)

cousinkix1953
07-23-2009, 1:09 AM
Thought you might have been up here. Was it a younger BLM agent? There's a new BLM agent that showed up to the area who likes to ask about so-called assault weapons. He had his butt chewed out by his supervisor over this issue last year, and was told to go to the local gun store to be educated on OLL's. I ended up supplying that gun store with the flowchart and info from Calguns to pass on to him. All other LEO's (and the local prosecuting attorney's office) in the area are aware of and cool with OLL's as long as you are running a legal gun.

If your OLL is properly configured then you have nothing to worry about. He should be well aware of OLL's now, and would probably simply look very closely to ensure that it is legally configured and give you a hard time about it. If you find that it's really bugging you, you could call the local BLM office and ask to speak to the supervisor about it. Maybe the guy will get his butt chewed out again? :P

-Jason
Many local police departments refuse to enforce some federal laws. They don't call ICE; when illegal aliens are arrested for illegal guns. Maybe these federal BLM rangers ought to concern themselves only with the federal gun laws on federal property. If the sheriff wants to harass somebody over an OLL rifle, then let them get into trouble for confiscating a legal firearm.

You guys wanna bet that a Kalifornia medical marijuana card isn't worth much on federal property either? I can just see this same nosey nitpicky ranger busting some hippie campers over their Prop 215 exemptions too...

MudCamper
07-23-2009, 10:11 AM
OK, by that link, it appears that the BLM has stated affirmatively that they permit legally owned AWs to be possessed and used unless prohibited by other laws. Fair enough. I will print that letter and keep it with me when on BLM land.

Thanks for the link.

But do you own legally registered assault weapons, or do you own OLL rifles that look like assault weapons but are not, and in fact do not have any such registration?

MudCamper
07-23-2009, 10:15 AM
I'm just wondering what you do when your out on a trail and you want to protect yourself against any of the aforementioned South American nationals w/ irrigation equipment, and Dudley Do-Right shows up.

The BLM rangers seem to be hung up on the "assault weapon" topic. Other firearms they generally do not have issue with.

BLM firearms policy (http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/prog/recreation/hunting.print.html)
Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457)

Those URLs should have all the info you need.

LiquidFlorian
07-23-2009, 11:14 AM
Cool thanks!

DTOM CA!
07-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Have any of you used the "I have nothing illegal" or "I am not going to answer questions about guns" responses before? If so what were the officers reactions and body language? I have stated very politely my constitutional rights in different situations and I thought I was going to get jumped when his back up showed up. First time in my life I was TRULY bullied as I always fought back growing up even if I knew I was going to lose. That was a terrible feeling.

I would love to hear what Police on this board have to say on this issue. IMO Police are taught to have total control over a person and situation. When you tell them "I have nothing illegal" or take the 5th they are not ready for that so whatever they say next (right or wrong) will be to get you to submit to them (control you). Once you show that you will stand up for your rights but are respectful most will back off a little bit and not Harass you. Your personal confidence and keeping your wits about you in that situation will go along way in what the final outcome is. If I was a PO I would ask the same questions I bet 90% tell them everything they want to know and there body language tells them everything else.

-aK-
07-23-2009, 12:07 PM
Have any of you used the "I have nothing illegal" or "I am not going to answer questions about guns" responses before? If so what were the officers reactions and body language? I have stated very politely my constitutional rights in different situations and I thought I was going to get jumped when his back up showed up. First time in my life I was TRULY bullied as I always fought back growing up even if I knew I was going to lose. That was a terrible feeling.

Oh yes. I had a situation where I was working late in the ghetto repossessing cars. I was in the middle of the street with a car on the back of my tow truck and I was standing there with a clipboard and a flashlight doing an inspection of the vehicle. I was doing nothing wrong and I was totally polite and non confrontational when the officer rolls up. Including showing my hands, greeting him, and identifying myself before he said anything. I offered my license and paperwork and the reason I was there. He took it and apparently he was in a really bad mood because then he told me to "stand RIGHT here" as he pointed to the ground one step away from where I was already standing.

Since he was so rude I mocked him by looking down, to where he just pointed, took one step to the side and said back to him "RIGHT here?"

At that point he terry searched me and started asking all the usual questions. Including do you have any weapons on you. My reply was "Nope, of course not."

Then he asked if I had any in the truck and my reply was "Nope, I have nothing illegal."

He asked if he could search my truck and my reply was "no you can not search my truck."

So his next question was something along the lines of "Why not do you have something to hide" or similar to that. and my reply to that was "No, it's because you don't have the ****ing right to."

He wasn't happy but all he could do was look into the truck with his light and verified my identity. He also used my companies emergency number to call my boss at 4 in the AM to inform him I wasn't cooperating. I basically told him I'm not going to let him **** with me.

I was completely cool with him from the get go because I understand the situation. Most cops were really cool with me and more than once they tried to convince me that I should apply to their department. What really suprised me was that he was a sgt and not some young rookie. Usually the more veteran they are the more repoire we had.

Anyways, I'm rambling now. The point is he was pissed that I asserted my rights but because I did he tried to intimidate me but ultimately couldn't search my truck. He kept me there for about 15 or 20 minutes more and then had to let me go.

stevepsd
07-23-2009, 4:59 PM
Up near Ridgecrest.


This is my stomping grounds and am curious where you were hassled. Was it out near Wagon Wheel, Searles Station, in the El Paso's or.....?

-steve

Timmay
07-23-2009, 5:17 PM
This is my stomping grounds and am curious where you were hassled. Was it out near Wagon Wheel, Searles Station, in the El Paso's or.....?

-steve

Wagon Wheel area. From my understanding (what the BLM Ranger told me) was that the Wagon Wheel has a reputation for getting out of hand. I usually shoot in an area the obviously has had it's fair share of visitors ( when you head up the 395 you make that right onto South China Lake Blvd, heading into town, and then an immediate right after the first hill close to the road ). Actually when the Rangers showed up I had just got done quad riding from the above mentioned shooting area back to the Wagon Wheel so we barely got the lights on before the walked up to us.

Nodda Duma
07-23-2009, 7:51 PM
Wagon Wheel area. From my understanding (what the BLM Ranger told me) was that the Wagon Wheel has a reputation for getting out of hand. I usually shoot in an area the obviously has had it's fair share of visitors ( when you head up the 395 you make that right onto South China Lake Blvd, heading into town, and then an immediate right after the first hill close to the road ). Actually when the Rangers showed up I had just got done quad riding from the above mentioned shooting area back to the Wagon Wheel so we barely got the lights on before the walked up to us.

I know where you're talking about. Instead of making a right onto S. C L Blvd, turn left off of 395 onto Brown Road (old 395). Go down the hill and shortly after the curve, you'll see a turn-off for Wichnik road on the left (it has a street sign). The organized ranges are there. The first one is the NRA range that goes out to 600 yds. If you come up here often, it may be worthwhile to sign up for membership. It costs $25 a year and you can sign up at Guns4Us on E. Ridgecrest Blvd. BLM won't bother you there. The other ranges down there have similar fees, but that one is the cheapest and easiest to sign up for.

-Jason

Timmay
07-23-2009, 9:12 PM
I know where you're talking about. Instead of making a right onto S. C L Blvd, turn left off of 395 onto Brown Road (old 395). Go down the hill and shortly after the curve, you'll see a turn-off for Wichnik road on the left (it has a street sign). The organized ranges are there. The first one is the NRA range that goes out to 600 yds. If you come up here often, it may be worthwhile to sign up for membership. It costs $25 a year and you can sign up at Guns4Us on E. Ridgecrest Blvd. BLM won't bother you there. The other ranges down there have similar fees, but that one is the cheapest and easiest to sign up for.

-Jason

Sounds good. I go up there every once and awhile. I had a friend stationed up in China Lake and I do business up there every once and a while so I am sure I will be up there sometime again this year.

Nodda Duma
07-23-2009, 10:04 PM
Let me know when you do, I'll get my shooting buddies together and we'll hit the range with all sorts of toys. This valley is very well armed :D

-Jason

Kid Stanislaus
07-23-2009, 10:42 PM
Remember

You always have the right to remain silent

And they have the right to tell you to move on, whether they have a good reason or not.

Kid Stanislaus
07-23-2009, 10:49 PM
And of course we have the constitutional right not to answer any of their questions. Answer all of their questions with more questions. If they persist then flat out tell them you won't answer any of their questions.

Then be prepared to pack up and move to another camp ground or go home.

JDay
07-23-2009, 11:19 PM
The only way to clearly answer an LEO is from their clear line of questioning.

LEO: Do you have any assault rifles?

You: Can you please define "Assault Rifle" sir?

Select fire rifle that fires an intermediate round.

SJgunguy24
07-24-2009, 3:17 AM
I was at a shoot at Panoche and the BLM rangers showed up. We all had side arms and a few had rifles slung. They couldn't of been nicer. They were asking us about our rifles, why we went with this type of set up vs that type of set up.

When the first Ranger walked up I was mixing a batch of Tannerite:43:.

Thwy didn't have any issues with the Tannerite, as a matter of fact we set off a charge with them standing there. Both of them were doubled over laughing their butts off. It was an OK experiance for us.

kofire
10-30-2009, 12:34 PM
Thanks, but there is no confusion on my part. My concern is their confusion.



There was two who were on foot and one looked young, he was the one that asked us a second time after his partner already asked us and he seemed a little on edge with us. At first he didn't believe us that we had no beer, but come on!! It was around 110 degrees that weekend and 5-8 hours of hard quad riding with a few hours of shooting the last thing on my mind was beer.

Is it illegal to have beer?

bwiese
10-30-2009, 1:31 PM
Is it illegal to have beer?

Beer + guns is not a good idea.

Whatever legitimacy you have for being in a shooting area is colored by that.

a1c
10-30-2009, 1:34 PM
A BB'd AR is NOT an assault weapon so long as it is legally configured. Do not confuse this.

Wait - it is not in CA law, but we're talking BLM land here, and BLM Rangers are technically Feds, and federal law has a different definition of assault weapons. Or am I mistaken?

EDIT: just found this on the BLM website, which is incredibly vague:
Bureau of Land Management California policy is to allow the use of firearms on public lands, as provided for in state law, and to cooperate with state authorities in the enforcement of firearms regulations.

However, it is followed by this:

Persons have the permission of the Bureau of Land Management to possess and use firearms, including lawfully registered assault weapons, on BLM-administered public lands, except when prohibited by other applicable laws and regulations.

Sinestr
10-30-2009, 1:40 PM
These old threads always get me. I get half way through and realize I already have read it. :(

kofire
10-30-2009, 2:27 PM
Beer + guns is not a good idea.

Whatever legitimacy you have for being in a shooting area is colored by that.

My point was they said that the officer didnt believe them that they had any beer. What does that have to do with anything? It isnt illegal. No **** beer and guns dont mix but if they are locked up in the trailer who cares? It is no different than their house at that point.

ArticleTheFourth
10-30-2009, 2:50 PM
These old threads always get me. I get half way through and realize I already have read it. :(

Agreed:(, but I still find them informative:o.

Adehtla
10-30-2009, 3:26 PM
Not BLM, but I was stopped this last weekend on my quad by a Forestry officer (Shasta Trinity National Forest, road 04N08, about 0.75mi from 16). I was up there deer hunting, so I was carring my .30-06 (cond 3) and a sidearm (cond 1). He was beyond polite, as was I. Never once did he even look concerned that I had way more gun than him. We actually talked for a good 20 minutes. I escaped with a written warning for riding without a helmet. I should have received the full ticket, but he thought I was a "nice guy, polite, and respectful."

Since all of my firearms were in the open, it's different, I know. He did the 12031(e) check of my rifle, which I was more than happy to allow. He didn't even bother with my handgun (of course it's cocked, locked, and ready to rock).

Just remember, when you're asked questions by an LEO (city, county, state, or federal), you can decline to answer. Also, that phrase that keeps coming up, "I have nothing illegal", be careful with it. Unless you know that every single solitary item you have is legal, I would suggest not answering any question. If they want to search anything, your response is *ALWAYS*, "I do not consent to any searches."

Mayhem
10-30-2009, 3:30 PM
BLM, DFG, BART, and other specialized Law Enforcement Agency Officers, all Rode the small Bus to the police academy.

While they are good at enforcing their own codes when It comes to the California Penal Code and most Califonria laws outside their itty bitty area of expertise ... they Suck.

Heck the California Penal Code is so convoluted Even Police Officers and Sheriff Deputies Have a heck of a time understanding it, Add in the health and welfare Code and the Vehicle Code and you have a quagmire mess of crap that it takes an 8+ Year higher education to remotely understand.

Regular law enforcement is not required to "Know" the Law, It only requires them to have a "Working" Knowledge of the Law, that in itself is rather vague.

Most officers fresh out of the academy have very little idea of what they can and cannot do let alone what they should do in a given situation. This is why it's very very important for new officers to be supervised for a long period of time and obtain additional training after they are hired and put out on the streets. Most specialized agencies like DFG, BLM, BART, and Housing for example do not have a budget for additional training and supervision. They also have smaller salaries, So they tend to Hire people that would not or could not get hired on at a Regular Police or Sheriffs Departments. You will see a big deference in the quality and performance of say a California Highway Patrol Officer and a Lower end agency like BART Transit Cops

The really scary part is .....

How can you expect people to obey the law if it takes an BAR certified attorney with a very expensive and long higher education to know the Law. Even Law enforcement officers who are expected to enforce the law, DO NOT KNOW THE LAW!

EDIT: I would also like to point out one other thing. When you read about law enforcement in a newspaper or on a forum like this one you rarely hear of anything positive. Like How a CHP officers assisted you when you where broke down on the highway and gave you a ride to a service station or "Safer" area. Or like when a DFG warden has a polite chat with you while your hunting and then points out where he saw a trophy buck that you later bagged.

The Director
10-30-2009, 3:44 PM
I was shooting last year with my dad over in Berdoo Canyon (by Indio in the desert). I had already shot my AR and had it back in the truck. I had my Ruger 9mm holstered, my dad had his .357 holstered, and I think we were shooting a bolt action .30-06.

All of a sudden I heard what sounded like yelling...pulled my earplugs and turned to see the BLM truck a hundred yards away. They were talking through their hailer. They asked us to put all of our guns on safe and down, and that they would be coming over to talk with us.

I was immediately on edge....I wasn't sure if they could legally demand us to drop our weapons in such a scenario. I dropped them anyways, putting my pistol on the gun case that held a shotgun. Dad did the same.

As they approached us, I started walking toward them to see what was up. The first BLM guy jumped a bit when he saw my holster....even though it was empty.

They came over and asked us what we were shooting, and said they were looking for assault weapons. Clearly they didn't want to touch anything....they were just looking at what was there.

The butt of my tactical mossberg was sticking out of it's case. It's an AR style collapsible stock.

As soon as they laid eyes on it they were both like..."what's in there!". I opened it for them, and when they saw it was only a shotgun they were like "oh, that's okay. You can have that".

They asked if we had any other guns with us. I told them no, because in the mood they seemed to be in I DID NOT want them sniffing my PERFECTLY LEGAL BB equipped AR.

I asked what was up with the assault weapon search. They said they had a "problem" with assault weapons lately and were on the lookout. I took the opportunity to lecture him on bullet buttons and such, and he seemed to have a passing knowledge on OLLs....but not enough for me to trust him.

They left soon enough.....a couple days later I phoned the BLM Ranger office and spoke to the Head Ranger. I e-mailed him a copy of the Calguns flowchart and explained that his men had come around looking for Assault Weapons. Head Ranger Dude knew all about OLLs and said they had attended numerous classes hosted by the CA DOJ about them :eek:....which is not necessarily a good thing!

In any case it has made me a little wary of shooting OLLs on BLM land. I just don't want the hassle. Usually I shoot them from not more than ten feet from the back of the SUV, then throw 'em in. I can see the BLM truck from a long ways off before they come and I figure I'll shut the tailgate and refuse a search before I get anything confiscated.

Their knowledge on firearms laws is spotty at best.

bucket49
10-30-2009, 3:46 PM
New acronym-----------
Mayors
Against the
Bill
Of
Rights

And the tongue twister is of course MABOR MAYORS

Mayhem
10-30-2009, 4:39 PM
Their knowledge on firearms laws is spotty at best.

BLM officers are little more then Security Guards. They are paid to protect Federal Land and they are Employed by the US Federal Government .


The Job Description.

BLM Rangers are the uniformed Federal law enforcement officers of the BLM responsible for enforcing a variety of laws and regulations related to the public lands and resources, and for ensuring the safety of BLM employees and public land users.

The BLM is the place for those who love the outdoors. After all, that’s where BLM Rangers spend most of their time. If you’ve ever dreamed about having an office that encompasses a couple million acres of public lands, you just might like this job!

BLM Rangers are uniformed officers who provide a regular and recurring presence over vast areas of public lands. They are responsible for conducting high visibility patrols; conducting public contacts; enforcing federal laws and regulations; assisting local county or city police departments, other federal and state land management agencies, and BLM Special Agents investigating illegal activity on public lands; and generally providing for the safety of BLM employees and public land users.

BLM Rangers regularly patrol public lands by four-wheel drive vehicle, all-terrain vehicle, motorcycle, aircraft, snowmobile, jet ski, boat, horse, and even the oldest patrol method—on foot. The job of a Ranger varies considerably depending on location. In the southwestern desert areas, Rangers spend a great deal of time dealing with large numbers of recreational users and off-highway vehicle issues, as well as a variety of resource theft and vandalism incidents; Rangers along the southern border may encounter illegal aliens and smuggling while their counterparts in Alaska travel long distances by aircraft and snow machine to patrol remote areas of public lands; and, Rangers in urban areas may encounter crimes related to alcohol, hazardous materials and other dumping, wildland fire and arson, and many other trespass concerns.

Are there any special requirements?
Applying for a career as a BLM Ranger is easy, although the qualifications for entry into the BLM Law Enforcement Program are quite rigorous. You must be able to meet all of the following:

Be a U.S. citizen.
Pass an extensive background investigation, drug test, physical fitness test, and medical exam.
Hold a valid state driver’s license and be capable of operating motor vehicles, or special purpose law enforcement vehicles of various types including four-wheel drives, all terrain vehicles, motorcycles, and small watercraft.
Not have reached your 37th birthday at the time of your appointment or, if older than 37, have prior experience in a qualifying Federal law enforcement position.
Be able to safely utilize firearms, non-lethal weapons, and control tactics in the conduct of your law enforcement duties.

If selected, you will be required to:

Successfully complete the 18 week Land Management Police Training Program at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC).
Successfully complete the BLM’s Field Training and Evaluation Program.
Successfully complete a minimum of 40 hours of BLM law enforcement in-service training annually.
Meet recurring firearms and control tactics training and qualification standards.
Complete periodic medical and physical fitness testing.
Maintain a favorable background investigation.
Maintain a delegation of law enforcement authority.
Wear the official BLM law enforcement uniform.
BLM Ranger positions are drug-testing designated positions and are subject to random testing. Ranger work generally involves working nights, weekends, and holidays, and may involve extended shifts during unplanned or special events or operations



Essentially They are not trained or have very little training in California Law. I'm fairly sure they are not recognized by California P.O.S.T. I know in certain states they are not allowed to enforced state and local laws at all unless they get individually trained and recognized by that States P.O.S.T. What they are good at is Enforcing Federal Laws in regards to Public Land.

I think some one could push the issue at either the State or Federal level so we could make BLM officers get Cal P.O.S.T. Certified, Or make them back off Trying to enforce State laws as they do not have a working knowledge of such Laws. Nipping these problems at the bud.

I would recommend any one that has a run in with a BLM officer to get his name and badge number. Document the encounter including how the officer made you feel and report it to his supervisor. Get his supervisors information and report it to your Representative.

ZRX61
10-30-2009, 6:06 PM
My point was they said that the officer didnt believe them that they had any beer. What does that have to do with anything? It isnt illegal. No **** beer and guns dont mix but if they are locked up in the trailer who cares? It is no different than their house at that point.

OMG! I have firearms in my gunsafe & wine in my kitchen! Think of the kittens! ;)

misterjake
10-30-2009, 6:23 PM
What happens if BLM take away a perfectly legal firearm from you? Do you have to get a lawyer and go to court to get it back?

TRICKSTER
10-30-2009, 6:25 PM
Most officers fresh out of the academy have very little idea of what they can and cannot do let alone what they should do in a given situation. This is why it's very very important for new officers to be supervised for a long period of time and obtain additional training after they are hired and put out on the streets. Most specialized agencies like DFG, BLM, BART, and Housing for example do not have a budget for additional training and supervision. They also have smaller salaries, So they tend to Hire people that would not or could not get hired on at a Regular Police or Sheriffs Departments. You will see a big deference in the quality and performance of say a California Highway Patrol Officer and a Lower end agency like BART Transit Cops



I don't know where you get your info, but BART is one of the highest paid Departments in the state. Salary/benifits wise they are definitely not a "lower end agency".

bodger
10-30-2009, 7:20 PM
What happens if BLM take away a perfectly legal firearm from you? Do you have to get a lawyer and go to court to get it back?


You can get a lot of help fron the right people on this forum if you weren't doing anything illegal but got hassled anyway.

That's why it's good to give what you can when you can to the CalGuns Fund.

Bad Voodoo
10-30-2009, 7:30 PM
The only way to clearly answer an LEO is from their clear line of questioning.

LEO: Do you have any assault rifles?

You: Can you please define "Assault Rifle" sir?

There it is.

diginit
10-30-2009, 9:15 PM
Certain people do go to BLM land to play with their illegal weapons. They think they won't be discovered. It only makes sense that rangers are upset about this. It took a Calguns lawer to explain the difference between an OLL and an AW to the BLM where I shoot. Once Properly informed, There hasn't been a problem with OLL's.
I believe that all LEO's should know the law they are paid to enforce. That is where we should apply our efforts. I hate to tell a LEO that I know the law better than he does. No one enjoys being belittled. Just ask him to call his supervisor to doublecheck the charge in order to avoid any unnecessary disciplinary action on your part or his.

SJgunguy24
10-30-2009, 11:33 PM
Certain people do go to BLM land to play with their illegal weapons. They think they won't be discovered. It only makes sense that rangers are upset about this. It took a Calguns lawer to explain the difference between an OLL and an AW to the BLM where I shoot. Once Properly informed, There hasn't been a problem with OLL's.
I believe that all LEO's should know the law they are paid to enforce. That is where we should apply our efforts. I hate to tell a LEO that I know the law better than he does. No one enjoys being belittled. Just ask him to call his supervisor to doublecheck the charge in order to avoid any unnecessary disciplinary action on your part or his.

Those guys get a kick out of Tannerite too.

Mayhem
10-31-2009, 1:43 AM
I don't know where you get your info, but BART is one of the highest paid Departments in the state. Salary/benifits wise they are definitely not a "lower end agency".

Umm "lower end agency" has far more to it then just salary scale, but they start at 5,386.47/month with a lateral. Starting pay for a Academy grad from what I understand is in the High 3K to low 4K range almost a grand less per month. and the top wage is only around 6,400.00 per month. Compared to allot of bay Area Agencies thats a wage scale that runs nearly 1k less. Contra Costa County Pay Scale was around this back in the early 1990's.

Now I will admit that is not taking into account Benefits and overtime opportunity's.

But then You have the fact they don't dump a whole lot into training like Taser Training.

Which leads us to a BART officer that shoots a person in custody in handcuffs face down on the ground in the back killing him. Even if he did honestly intend to tase him HE WAS IN CUSTODY ON HIS FACE IN HANDCUFFS! Rather then face the music the officer Cuts and Runs and BART tried to sweep it under the rug till the cell phone videos hit YouTube. Where does the fallout and demonstration take place ... in-front of Oakland PD. This doesn't sit well with Oakland PD officers and Officers in surrounding communities. I wounder If response times to assist BART officers have dropped off any?

So if BART is not a "lower end agency" how come the rest of the Law Enforcement Community looks down at them like their Wanta Be's? And why does BART often hire Bone heads from the bottom of the Academy pool. Lets Face If you can't get on at a real department you go work for BART or turn to Private Security. Even Housing Cops Aren't looked down on as much.

BARTCOP = Broke Another Rule Time to Call Oakland Police
BART, keeping Bay Area Cops busy since 1972
BART Cops are like bad jokes just not as funny.
BART wanted its own cops but settled for guys that can Call Oakland P.D.
I heard BART is doing away with their cops? Ya they discovered the number to 911.

This is a problem with BART and other Transit LE agencies across the country. They over specialize, and have little in the way of training budgets, and in allot of cases have poor hiring practices. The best they can hope for is to get an experienced lateral as Their New Hire programs are poorly funded as well.

Again in their defense this is becoming more common. Hiring practices become about numbers and points. Some agencies have a simple Interview rather then have a candidate face a full board, A simple background check with no leg work hoping that the psych-eval weeds out any unwanteds.

Most departments are cutting back on Training and new hire budgets if they are hiring at all. Back Ground checks are becoming less intensive and new hires are not scrutinized as closely. What you get is a scared Newbie thrown out on the streets right out of the academy with very little orientation and next to no supervision and additional training.

All this due to economic problems, BART really can't use that excuse. Infact BART's budgets should have actually improved.

supersonic
10-31-2009, 8:39 AM
One phrase to commit to memory, "I have nothing illegal in my vehicles".

Precisely..........and WHAT NOT.:p

Seesm
10-31-2009, 5:16 PM
I think you did good with them.

BTW you do not have a "assault rifle" You have a "sport utility" rifle

You did not lie and you did not give me too much. Just enough.

Gryff
10-31-2009, 6:08 PM
But I would like to tell them in a nice way it is none of your business !

I disagree. They have a right to ask, and you have a right to say that you choose not to answer. Cops pull a LOT of dirtbags off the street by using questions to fish. That's a very good thing.

Just be calm and confident and say "I do not have to answer that, sir."

TRICKSTER
10-31-2009, 10:00 PM
Mayhem, you definitely have some issues with BART. You claim that they have a "smaller salary", I point out that you are mistaken and you go off on a tirade. Are you a disgruntled employee, someone that was arrested by BART, or someone who BART wouldn't hire?

By the way, according to CCSO job postings, entry level pay starts at $3551.13. BART job posting shows entry level at $4161.05. CCSO Deputy pay is $5451-6791. BART's is $5548-7422. So your source of information is messed up.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 12:50 AM
Not in CA last time I checked.

Sucks

Are registered AWs illegal on BLM land now? I thought they were legal out there.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 12:57 AM
It's not "their" land, it's your land.

No. There is no federal code prohibiting any particular type of firearm on BLM lands. There are only safe shooting regulations. And all California State law applies. However, the BLM rangers have proven to be quite ignorant of the law, and have confiscated perfectly legal rifles repeatedly in the past.

Mayhem
11-01-2009, 1:13 AM
Mayhem, you definitely have some issues with BART. You claim that they have a "smaller salary", I point out that you are mistaken and you go off on a tirade. Are you a disgruntled employee, someone that was arrested by BART, or someone who BART wouldn't hire?

Let me guess you work for BART or some other transit service.

Let me point something out to you. Not once did I personally attack or Insult you. Maybe the people you work for or your organisation But not you as an Individual.

Those little BART insults aren't mine ,they came from bay area LEOs. The BARTCOP acronym is allegedly wrote on a Desk in the Briefing Room in OHAPD
on 25th. as well as a Union like sticker thats supposedly running around a few agencies.

I have never applied to BART, I have never rode BART, I Have never had any Run ins With BART TPO's. I loosely know/met mabey 2 or 3 BART TPO's and a few people that work in that department as non LEOs. Up until about a decade ago I didn't even know BART had LEOs. I have only been to a Bart station twice in my Life and that was to pick someone UP or Drop them Off. Don't take this the wrong way ... But I would never ever apply to BART. I like to move around I like outdoorsy type LEO jobs and I Hate the bay area. Oh it is a nice place to Visit but I hate working their and I would never ever Live their if I can avoid it - knock on wood - You know I'm probably now Cursed I'll end up working for BART and Living in the BAY AREA NOW.

By the way, according to CCSO job postings, entry level pay starts at $3551.13. BART job posting shows entry level at $4161.05. CCSO Deputy pay is $5451-6791. BART's is $5548-7422. So your source of information is messed up.

You know Your right on the Salary Trickster. Unfortunately My info Came from BART but appears to be Dated as the Current Listings on Line Show what you have.


I Have
Entry: $3892/month
Lateral: $5,386/month
Step 5: $6,463/month

Current

Entry-Level: $4,161/Month
Lateral: $5,548/month
Step 5: $7422/month

I already stated my Info on CCOS was dated. that last time I looked into CCOS was in the early 90's when I was still in the military Looks like they don't even have a COLI as I remember their salary actually being bigger over 15 years ago.

I may be somewhat wrong dumping BART in with other Agencies Like I did. Most of my opinions towards BART are from bad Press and Other NON-BART LEO's Opinions. I have overheard a off duty BART TPO Bad mouthing his Agency which sure as heck didn't help It's Image in my Eyes.

BTW I made other mistakes Oscar Grant was not in handcuffs. I was also under the impression Mehserle was in the bottom 5% of his class, this was misreported as He was in the TOP 10% and was actually very well educated.

Now let me get to the point as to why I consider BART a "lower end agency".
Training, I often feel that no Law Enforcement Agency in California gives their Officers enough training but the so called "lower end agencies" Have really bad or non existent training programs and really poor training budgets. This leads to Issues we see with BLM and other similar state and federal agencies. BLM has to goto CalDOJ to get a training video on an issue CalDOJ has been know to get dirty on them selfs by Terrorizing Law Abiding FFL's with bogus charges that they know will never see the inside of a court room all to Tax the FFL's resources and put him or her out of business or get them to change their fully legal business practices.

If Johannes Mehserle is telling the truth and He's not another Craig Peyer. HE made the classic mistake of Confusing his Handgun for his Taser. which is understandable when he gets about 6 hours of training handed to him with his taser and no official Policy as to it's use. However what makes this issue worse is Mehserle's actions after the incident and how BART reacted and dealt with the entire incident. The entire thing Makes BART look like a Bunch of Pink Slip Security Guards. It makes the surrounding area LE Agencies look bad, and it makes All Leo's look bad. Heck Oakland PD was the Agency that got protested not Bart. Essentially your getting bent on me because to a certain degree I'm judging BART TPD based off it. Now How do you think the Guys and Galls in Oakland PD feel when they have an agry mob on their doorstep because of something a BART TPO did at a BART Station?

Other agency's and jurisdiction's opinions of BART TPD due to the fall out and BARTS handling of the issue may not play our so well for Mehserle himself as Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff appears to be zealously gunning for Mehserle. BART itself turned on itself as one Board member with the support of another board member wanted the BART TPD Chief and some of his staff to resign.

So essentially this and other Non-Bart LEO's opinions of Bart is why I called BART TPD a "lower end agency". If I'm wrong I'm sorry but thats my opinion. Least they I'm not Making BART TPD out to look like LAPD.

Tasers are and Issue I'm currently researching. So far I'm on the opinion that Tasers Need to be re-evaluated. nearly every agancy in California if not the U.S. needs to re-address their policies procedures regarding the Issue and Use of Tasers by Officers and Completely overhaul and update their training practices. Even the Taser Gun itself can use a redesign. But this discussion is for another place at another time.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 4:00 AM
Only a slightly off topic question: is it legal to open carry on BLM land?

All else being equal, yes.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 4:14 AM
And they have the right to tell you to move on, whether they have a good reason or not.

Not from your temporary residence.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 4:23 AM
Oh, come on. The only two things in life that make it worth livin' are anti-depressants and fast firin' weapons.:43:

Beer + guns is not a good idea.

Whatever legitimacy you have for being in a shooting area is colored by that.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 4:32 AM
I really don't have any answers for the tough questions here, but this is one hell of a good post.

BLM, DFG, BART, and other specialized Law Enforcement Agency Officers, all Rode the small Bus to the police academy.

While they are good at enforcing their own codes when It comes to the California Penal Code and most Califonria laws outside their itty bitty area of expertise ... they Suck.

Heck the California Penal Code is so convoluted Even Police Officers and Sheriff Deputies Have a heck of a time understanding it, Add in the health and welfare Code and the Vehicle Code and you have a quagmire mess of crap that it takes an 8+ Year higher education to remotely understand.

Regular law enforcement is not required to "Know" the Law, It only requires them to have a "Working" Knowledge of the Law, that in itself is rather vague.

Most officers fresh out of the academy have very little idea of what they can and cannot do let alone what they should do in a given situation. This is why it's very very important for new officers to be supervised for a long period of time and obtain additional training after they are hired and put out on the streets. Most specialized agencies like DFG, BLM, BART, and Housing for example do not have a budget for additional training and supervision. They also have smaller salaries, So they tend to Hire people that would not or could not get hired on at a Regular Police or Sheriffs Departments. You will see a big deference in the quality and performance of say a California Highway Patrol Officer and a Lower end agency like BART Transit Cops

The really scary part is .....

How can you expect people to obey the law if it takes an BAR certified attorney with a very expensive and long higher education to know the Law. Even Law enforcement officers who are expected to enforce the law, DO NOT KNOW THE LAW!

EDIT: I would also like to point out one other thing. When you read about law enforcement in a newspaper or on a forum like this one you rarely hear of anything positive. Like How a CHP officers assisted you when you where broke down on the highway and gave you a ride to a service station or "Safer" area. Or like when a DFG warden has a polite chat with you while your hunting and then points out where he saw a trophy buck that you later bagged.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 5:21 AM
Once upon a time in the west we voluntarily stopped to chat with a BLM cop in Penoche canyon. We said we had been doing some target shooting (no high drama weapons, all blue steel and walnut) but also admitted we were keeping an eye open for wild pigs. This ******* then decides to check all our hunting licenses. One of our party does not have his license on him, because the object of the outing was not really "hunting". He did happen to have the recept for his license on him and showed it the the BLM cop. Sorry, he was cited for hunting without a license.

That was not necessary. If we actually had stumbled across a pig he would have not participated in its dispatch. this is just one example of how one ******* can compromise the effectiveness of an organization. There were seven people in two vehicles involved in that incident. We eniteated the contact, silly us. Do you think any of us will make that mistake again? That reduces the effectiveness of not just that officer but also his fellow officers buy a factor of seven as regards to their ability to know what is going on in their areas.

BLM cops are stupid, barring evidence to the contrary.


BLM officers are little more then Security Guards. They are paid to protect Federal Land and they are Employed by the US Federal Government .



Essentially They are not trained or have very little training in California Law. I'm fairly sure they are not recognized by California P.O.S.T. I know in certain states they are not allowed to enforced state and local laws at all unless they get individually trained and recognized by that States P.O.S.T. What they are good at is Enforcing Federal Laws in regards to Public Land.

I think some one could push the issue at either the State or Federal level so we could make BLM officers get Cal P.O.S.T. Certified, Or make them back off Trying to enforce State laws as they do not have a working knowledge of such Laws. Nipping these problems at the bud.

I would recommend any one that has a run in with a BLM officer to get his name and badge number. Document the encounter including how the officer made you feel and report it to his supervisor. Get his supervisors information and report it to your Representative.

Meplat
11-01-2009, 5:24 AM
OMG! I have firearms in my gunsafe & wine in my kitchen! Think of the kittens! ;)

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Meplat
11-01-2009, 5:34 AM
I don't know where you get your info, but BART is one of the highest paid Departments in the state. Salary/benifits wise they are definitely not a "lower end agency".

Which proves that you don't necessarily get what you pay for.:rolleyes:

Ford8N
11-01-2009, 6:39 AM
Once upon a time in the west we voluntarily stopped to chat with a BLM cop in Penoche canyon. We said we had been doing some target shooting (no high drama weapons, all blue steel and walnut) but also admitted we were keeping an eye open for wild pigs. This ******* then decides to check all our hunting licenses. One of our party does not have his license on him, because the object of the outing was not really "hunting". He did happen to have the recept for his license on him and showed it the the BLM cop. Sorry, he was cited for hunting without a license.

That was not necessary. If we actually had stumbled across a pig he would have not participated in its dispatch. this is just one example of how one ******* can compromise the effectiveness of an organization. There were seven people in two vehicles involved in that incident. We eniteated the contact, silly us. Do you think any of us will make that mistake again? That reduces the effectiveness of not just that officer but also his fellow officers buy a factor of seven as regards to their ability to know what is going on in their areas.

BLM cops are stupid, barring evidence to the contrary.

Get a copy of "You & The Police" by Boston T. Party. After you read it you will see where you made your mistake.;)

bodger
11-01-2009, 8:34 AM
Once upon a time in the west we voluntarily stopped to chat with a BLM cop in Penoche canyon. We said we had been doing some target shooting (no high drama weapons, all blue steel and walnut) but also admitted we were keeping an eye open for wild pigs. This ******* then decides to check all our hunting licenses. One of our party does not have his license on him, because the object of the outing was not really "hunting". He did happen to have the recept for his license on him and showed it the the BLM cop. Sorry, he was cited for hunting without a license.

That was not necessary. If we actually had stumbled across a pig he would have not participated in its dispatch. this is just one example of how one ******* can compromise the effectiveness of an organization. There were seven people in two vehicles involved in that incident. We eniteated the contact, silly us. Do you think any of us will make that mistake again? That reduces the effectiveness of not just that officer but also his fellow officers buy a factor of seven as regards to their ability to know what is going on in their areas.

BLM cops are stupid, barring evidence to the contrary.

That's just sad. I remember the days when you could stop and talk to a
F & G officer or a sheriff's deputy and not worry about him sniffing around to try to find something to bust you for.

"Keeping an eye out for wild pigs" doesn't necessarily mean you're hunting them. What if all you wanted to do was take their picture? Scout around for the time when you are actually going to hunt them.

And you're right, after what happened, who would ever have any conversation with these asshats at all.

"Nothing illegal in my vehicle. You do not have my permission to search.

Have a nice day, s**tbird."

TRICKSTER
11-01-2009, 8:51 AM
Once upon a time in the west we voluntarily stopped to chat with a BLM cop in Penoche canyon. We said we had been doing some target shooting (no high drama weapons, all blue steel and walnut) but also admitted we were keeping an eye open for wild pigs. This ******* then decides to check all our hunting licenses. One of our party does not have his license on him, because the object of the outing was not really "hunting". He did happen to have the recept for his license on him and showed it the the BLM cop. Sorry, he was cited for hunting without a license.

That was not necessary. If we actually had stumbled across a pig he would have not participated in its dispatch. this is just one example of how one ******* can compromise the effectiveness of an organization. There were seven people in two vehicles involved in that incident. We eniteated the contact, silly us. Do you think any of us will make that mistake again? That reduces the effectiveness of not just that officer but also his fellow officers buy a factor of seven as regards to their ability to know what is going on in their areas.

BLM cops are stupid, barring evidence to the contrary.

So what did the judge say?

mike_schwartz@mail.com
11-01-2009, 9:01 AM
The agents in this area tend to be very anti-gun and have little valuable knowledge on gun laws. Particularly the unconstitutional guns laws in California. More than one agent I have run into knew little about federal law too. I have met with the BLM and offered to get them in touch with legal experts to teach their agents, but they have refused. You must be careful and must not volunteer any information regarding firearms. I continue to work with the “higher-ups” in the BLM, but in the mean time, BE OVERLY CAUTIOUS.

MudCamper
11-01-2009, 10:20 AM
Then be prepared to pack up and move to another camp ground or go home.

Nonsense.

It's not "their" land, it's your land.

I never said it was "their" land. I referred to "BLM land" in my posts, which is obviously just common wording for "public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management".

Mayhem
11-01-2009, 3:11 PM
Which proves that you don't necessarily get what you pay for.:rolleyes:

You know if They put about 10% of that salary back into Training they wouldn't have so many problems.

Mehserle, If he is telling the truth, hopefully got his change of venue cuase otherwise the Jury will hang him. even If he gets acquitted I'm sure his career is over. Which is sad considering the "handgun/taser" boo boo has happened before and you very rarely hear of an officer getting fired or suffering any damage to their carriers. Mariposa SO went as far as to sue the taser manufacturer with thier incident - It got thrown out of court. Mehserle Did quite, so BART is under no obligation to take him back.

IF Mehserle is telling the truth and If BART had a better thought out and implemented it's Taser Training program, Say a 24 Hour program rather then 6. A researched Procedure and documented Policy as to the USE of Tasers the BART shooting of Grant may not have had happened. If BART had better reacted to the shooting It may have saved face in the eyes of the law enforcement community and may have saved Mehserle's career.

Some things to look at

POST only requires 24 hours of fire arms training and familiarization and I think 40 hours covering the powers of arrest. If your lucky the Acadamy you go to has a program that exceeds POST requirements.

The best Police academies are Private in house academies like the CHP academy in Sacramento. Then you have Public Academies that local law enforcement agencies poor money manpower and resources into, fallowed by public community college academies that have no ties to a law enforcement agency.

The very bottom of the pool are the federal academies for BLM/Forestry/INS. which do not cover State laws and ordinances or State constitutions (Like the FBI does). They are very good academias possibly the best in their specializations but again they are over specialized. If you work in Law enforcement in another state and relocate to California you have to get additional training and POST certification to work for state or Local Law enforcement. However BLM who is probably the worse and bottom LE agency Does not require their officers to take any California POST mandated training.

Think of it this way. Imagine if specialized medicine doctors did not have to train in general medicine. You have a Heart attack in a restaurant and need immediate Medical attention. Theres a doctor present but he is A proctologist and since he was not required to learn general medicine He has very little Medical Knowledge about your anatomy beyond your pooper. He can't help you and your dead.

Now since Proctologist do need to take general medicine they can actually help you even though they aren't as good for you in this situation as a cardiologist they probably exceed an RN or EMT and are more in line with what a Family doctor knows and can do.

So essentially BLM sucks because all they can do is mess with your pooper anything else and their still messing with your pooper.

Note: another problem with specialized law enforcement agencies and Programs SUCH as DEA BATFE and BLM at the federal level Cal DOJ at the state level and even Local agency Programs like LAPD CRASH and the LAPD Gun Unit is they have to justify their existence. If they are not making arrest and getting convictions their numbers go to crap and thier budgets or programs get slashed. IF there were no arrest and convictions on BLM land it would mean either there is no Crime there or BLM officers are not doing thier jobs in either case they will get replaced or severely cut back. This flows down to the individual officer. Its not so much like a quota but it works almost the same way Your either not doing your job and need to be replaced or there is no problem and we don't need you.

E Pluribus Unum
11-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Man.... I read through 9 pages of responses and I am VERY surprised everyone missed this fact:

Because your toy hauler is a living quarter, and camping is legal on BLM land, your base camp for camping is legally a "camp site" and under the law, considered a "temporary residence".

This means you can carry loaded, and concealed in your trailer. Your OLL could have been fully locked, loaded and ready to go and it is legal at a campsite.

Got Stuff?
11-03-2009, 1:08 PM
I think it's far more likely that a good sam Nurse or EMT would save your life while the Doctor disappears. I think a lot of Nurses are heroic on a daily basis.

While I'm at it, I think Nurses are far more heroic than cops, they work harder than cops, they endure more stress than cops, and if that all wasn't enough, they go home and take care of their families. Worse yet, some of them have to go home and put up with cops.

Agreed!

MasterYong
11-03-2009, 4:07 PM
Man.... I read through 9 pages of responses and I am VERY surprised everyone missed this fact:

Because your toy hauler is a living quarter, and camping is legal on BLM land, your base camp for camping is legally a "camp site" and under the law, considered a "temporary residence".

This means you can carry loaded, and concealed in your trailer. Your OLL could have been fully locked, loaded and ready to go and it is legal at a campsite.

It's been a long time since I read this thread but I assumed that had been convered! Good catch.

Campsite = residence. That's the way I've always read the law as well, and is why I'm typically comfortable carrying while I camp.

MudCamper
11-03-2009, 6:18 PM
The campsite issue has been covered, and I linked to the Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread in this thread, but nobody ever clicks on links so I don't know why I keep trying. Anyway, this thread is not really about that. It's about BLM LE AW FUD.

E Pluribus Unum
11-03-2009, 9:58 PM
The campsite issue has been covered, and I linked to the Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread in this thread, but nobody ever clicks on links so I don't know why I keep trying.
Linking a vast thread about general firearms issues does not cover it. Give the OP a general explanation, and then reference the large post.


Anyway, this thread is not really about that. It's about BLM LE AW FUD.

Umm.. no... this is what it's about:

My question is when I am on BLM land or designated OHV camp areas (controlled my BLM) what are my rights when it comes to my weapons and what not.

MudCamper
11-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Umm.. no... this is what it's about:

Um. No. You're selectively editing. And now we're really off-topic.

Timmay
11-08-2009, 5:09 AM
The residence point was brought up on post 7. Now what about trucks? We are planing another outing on that land and what if some of us sleep in our trucks or tents? Are those also considered temporary residence and as such require a search warrant?

Swatguy10_15
11-08-2009, 5:27 AM
And of course we have the constitutional right not to answer any of their questions. Answer all of their questions with more questions. If they persist then flat out tell them you won't answer any of their questions.

No, you have the right to remain silent when it comes to self incrimination. If youre legal and refuse to answer questions youre creating "suspicious behavior". If theyre just simply investiagting a complaint and asking general questions...Pulling the evasive word tactic card is only going to create suspicion..Just stay legal...