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View Full Version : Lets organize an open carry day in Los Angeles.


12GaugeLosAngeles
07-21-2009, 10:16 AM
So i decided to open carry last week, i don't drive which makes it a nightmare, and i usually walk around alone. I want to plan an open carry (maybe a trash pick up day) to spread awareness of open carrying. Just a few fellas from Los Angeles that wan to do this locally and maybe call up the news to let them now, they would almost surely cover the story. I been pulled over walking a few times OPEN CARRYING, and the cops sort of seem to know the law now. AND I LIVE IN A GANG INFESTED AREA. *Self shoulder tap* but i fear a day a crazy cop sees a gun holstered on me, and who knows what could happen, that's why there is strength in numbers. Who's in??? I want to do this August-ish... Trash pick up open carry. Email me if you in... dekode29@sbcglobal.net. Hopefully people CARE about spreading awareness... Let's get this ball ROLLING! I'm not working right now, so it's time to spread awareness and make open carry mainstream so we can fight for a SHALL ISSUE CCW permits.

Black Majik
07-21-2009, 10:21 AM
Pass.

jello2594
07-21-2009, 10:29 AM
In.

The Cable Guy
07-21-2009, 10:33 AM
If I was old enough to buy a handgun, I would be in. Have fun and keep us posted! Bring a camcorder!

EDIT:

I'm whosCaleb on youtube, the one with the shotgun reloading videos. Nice to see you on here 12gaLA!

12GaugeLosAngeles
07-21-2009, 10:52 AM
I'm planning a OC somewhere in Downtown LA, near Parker center LAPD police station headquarters... The surrounding streets look bad, but cops are everywhere, and yes i will bring my camera. Early of mid August, OC needs to go public... So if you have time on your hands, won't hurt to spread awareness... Hope to build a list soon, doesn't hurt to try!

12GaugeLosAngeles
07-21-2009, 10:53 AM
If I was old enough to buy a handgun, I would be in. Have fun and keep us posted! Bring a camcorder!

EDIT:

I'm whosCaleb on youtube, the one with the shotgun reloading videos. Nice to see you on here 12gaLA!


Yo caleb, for sure you got to show up man... Get some people to join....

8-Ball
07-21-2009, 10:53 AM
UOC is kind of pointless in my opinion...

However, loaded open carry makes a lot of sense... PRK nothwithstanding...

Pistolwhipped
07-21-2009, 11:41 AM
Haha open carry day in LA is like everyday isnt it? Except its gangs doing it.:gunsmilie:

SCMA-1
07-21-2009, 11:55 AM
Haha open carry day in LA is like everyday isnt it? Except its gangs doing it.:gunsmilie:

They carry alright, except they don't carry openly; that would be..........dumb?:rolleyes:

Timberwolf
07-21-2009, 12:01 PM
Open carry in LA - don't think thats gonna turn out quite as you expect. Make sure someone in the group is a EMT who is trained in GSWs

frankym
07-21-2009, 12:38 PM
I once asked an LAPD officer, who was clueless about open carry, what he would do if he saw someone with a holstered unloaded gun walking down the street and he simply replied "I'd shoot them"

gotgunz
07-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Get a camcorder!

This will be the Youtube moment of year! :rolleyes:

MiguelS
07-21-2009, 12:47 PM
You never know if a weapon is unloaded until you verify this yourself.

Also, why at the Parker Center, why would you flaunt OC in front of LE.

Why not just OC at a location where you would do a meet at? Park, restaurant?

Is this an OC day or OC Protest?

DNA
07-21-2009, 12:53 PM
You guys might want to check for applicable Los Angeles Municipal Codes if you're going to be doing this out in LA proper.

Dan

Bird of Fire
07-21-2009, 1:10 PM
I heard if you unloaded open carry even once in the county of LA, 100 kittens die in Mongolia! :Ohnoes: It's true my brothers sisters friend uncle told me once.

MasterYong
07-21-2009, 2:22 PM
Open carry in LA - don't think thats gonna turn out quite as you expect. Make sure someone in the group is a EMT who is trained in GSWs

I was thinking the same thing. I've never lived in LA but I've been there a few times and I see plenty of news stories coming out of that area.

Based on that, this is my prediction:

1. OC meet begins.

2. LEOs are called in re: MWAG.

3. LEOs shoot and kill all OC'ers.

4. LEOs are placed on paid vacation for two weeks.

5. LEOs return to duty.


ETA: I sincerly hope that doesn't happen, just playing. I think I recall reading in another OC thread that the OC'ers in SD were notifying police ahead of time of their gatherings to prevent any possible trouble. If that's true, it would be a good consideration.

shmeddie
07-21-2009, 2:32 PM
I'm in if it's done right. I think that the PD should be notified ahead of time and not in front of a LE station. I'm all for raising awareness! Let the media and people of LA know that not just gangbangers and idiots have guns. We need to make sure that we are no where near a school either. Like I said, I'm in if it is well planned.

caribbeing
07-21-2009, 2:46 PM
article about calgunners in San Diego during an open carry event. its a great read.

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/jul/15/cover/

grammaton76
07-21-2009, 2:51 PM
If I was old enough to buy a handgun, I would be in. Have fun and keep us posted! Bring a camcorder!

Actually, you SHOULD be there. With a camcorder - you actually would be contributing more to the group's safety than the guys with guns on their hips.

To the group in general:

I need to hassle Nathan some on this point, but the San Diego group has been fairly successful so far, and we should be publishing sort of a how-to. We've got some internal checklists we've worked up for our group, but we haven't created anything that's exactly "codified", as a "here's the recipe to holding an event that SHOULDN'T get you in trouble".

Here's some of the off the top of my head things:

There are some non-obvious things - i.e. checking Muni code (San Diego can ticket you for open carrying in a city park for instance, $250) and you should have good ratio of open carriers to non open carriers.

TRY to never get split up into groups of less than 6 individuals - we found that the smaller our groups got at the Boardwalk event in Feb, the more negative reaction we got. A couple of guys strolling around with guns are maybe a couple of nutcases; a large group taking a walk is a civil rights group. That's public perception for ya.

TRY to have some minorities. If you're 90% white males, then I'm sorry but you aren't going to get through to the minorities AT ALL. We're struggling to get more women and minorities involved in the SD group, because being mostly white males DOES carry a very negative stigma in our society now.

As for open carrying alone - if you're new to it, I have to advise you not to go alone. At the very bare minimum have a non-armed witness with you at all times (even pullnshoot25 tends to go out WITH someone most of the time during non-events), and BOTH YOU AND THE WITNESS need to have adequate recording devices on you.

It is also CRUCIAL that your witness understand his/her FIRST amendment rights as clearly as you understand your second amendment rights. If the guy is intimidated by the police into turning off or surrendering his recorder, he is nearly useless.

RECORDERS ARE NEVER TO BE TURNED OFF! This can't be under-stated. And if an open carrier is too cheap to buy a digital voice recorder for his own protection (removable media can easily "disappear" during a search), then he is too cheap to defend himself and owes it to himself and the movement to leave his gun at home.

BTW, also be aware that when they are checking you during an illegally extended 12031 and going into warrantless searches, they may remove your voice recorder and "accidentally" turn it off or set it on the hood of a running car. The audio is then pretty much useless.

To sum it up: I'm not saying don't do it, I am however saying be careful, and bring witnesses whenever you're on your own... and be very careful in planning your location if you do a 'meet'.

NEVER just rely on "I don't know that school is there"... you have to physically walk recon around your prospective meeting area while NOT open carrying in order to check for schools. If you're not walking but driving, then there should be multiple passengers watching for schools. And you drive a GRID pattern, every street and side street for 1000' (~.2mi) around your meeting point. A school 900' away on the other side of the freeway that you can't even get to without driving half a mile, STILL counts. Be cautious. And DON'T trust city maps - they don't maintain perfectly updated maps of the schools, and are not obligated to.

Afterburnt
07-21-2009, 3:57 PM
pass, I have no desire to die yet and I have children to feed but good luck

Rob360
07-21-2009, 4:06 PM
:popcorn:

Afterburnt
07-21-2009, 4:07 PM
how many layers of kevlar is the 4th amenment written on?

Capaholic
07-21-2009, 4:19 PM
No offense but my opinion is that open carrying in public is just another way to be a show-off.

Rob360
07-21-2009, 4:36 PM
No offense but my opinion is that open carrying in public is just another way to be a show-off.

....and it looks ridiculous.

Reason enough that they should just allow us all to carry concealed. ;)

7x57
07-21-2009, 4:42 PM
being mostly white males DOES carry a very negative stigma in our society urban California now.


Fixed it for ya. America isn't that racist.

7x57

grammaton76
07-21-2009, 4:49 PM
Fixed it for ya. America isn't that racist.

7x57

Good point, CA is much more racist than elsewhere in that context. :)

grumpycoconut
07-21-2009, 5:07 PM
Good point, CA is much more racist than elsewhere in that context. :)

I guess you've never tried being an American-Mexican (tall European variant, not the short dark Indio variant) married to a white woman in Georgia have you? Anyway, hating white men is righteous payback and does not count as racism:p

Guage, take advantage of the experience that's being offered you. Good planning results in good results.:) i'm too lazy to take part unless I get a wild hair up my back side at the last minute but I'll be with you in spirit.

TitanCi
07-21-2009, 5:34 PM
Honestly - if you're gonna be walking around UOCing in what you call "gang infested streets" you can only be ready for how many are gonna try to flex on you and try to tip you up...good luck and stay alive! plus what if you pull on them, and they end up pushing your wig back?

JeffMG
07-21-2009, 6:19 PM
Sorry man, but that is a ridiculous idea. It doesn't change anything and the outcome might be more negative than good. But more power to ya, stay safe.

strangerdude
07-21-2009, 6:22 PM
LAPD + OC, no thanks

7x57
07-21-2009, 6:29 PM
I suppose the "wait until we have some legal teeth in the Right to Bear" cry of reason is just pointless, isn't it?

I swear, the urge to suicide must be more of a biological necessity than I ever knew.

7x57

coolusername2007
07-21-2009, 7:38 PM
I'm in if it's done right. I think that the PD should be notified ahead of time and not in front of a LE station. I'm all for raising awareness! Let the media and people of LA know that not just gangbangers and idiots have guns. We need to make sure that we are no where near a school either. Like I said, I'm in if it is well planned.

Agreed. If the event is organized correctly, local LE notified, possible friendly media, etc. then I'm in. Also as another post suggested probably not in the middle of gangland or in front of a LE station. This should be posted on opencarry.org, I suspect the invite would get more positive feedback and attention there. Also, the San Diego OC folks should be asked/encouraged to assist with the organization and attendance.

Here's an idea, how about a three day event...LA, SD, and the Inland Empire. Labor day weekend would fit the bill.

jello2594
07-21-2009, 7:47 PM
Yeah, I'd rather meet up for a meal or a day at the park, then simply instigate the LAPD.

coolusername2007
07-21-2009, 7:53 PM
I once asked an LAPD officer, who was clueless about open carry, what he would do if he saw someone with a holstered unloaded gun walking down the street and he simply replied "I'd shoot them"

He's the prime example of LE who should be invited. No need training the trained, its those in need of new training we need to reach.

nickvig
07-21-2009, 7:59 PM
So i decided to open carry last week, i don't drive which makes it a nightmare, and i usually walk around alone. I want to plan an open carry (maybe a trash pick up day) to spread awareness of open carrying. Just a few fellas from Los Angeles that wan to do this locally and maybe call up the news to let them now, they would almost surely cover the story. I been pulled over walking a few times OPEN CARRYING, and the cops sort of seem to know the law now. AND I LIVE IN A GANG INFESTED AREA. *Self shoulder tap* but i fear a day a crazy cop sees a gun holstered on me, and who knows what could happen, that's why there is strength in numbers. Who's in??? I want to do this August-ish... Trash pick up open carry. Email me if you in... dekode29@sbcglobal.net. Hopefully people CARE about spreading awareness... Let's get this ball ROLLING! I'm not working right now, so it's time to spread awareness and make open carry mainstream so we can fight for a SHALL ISSUE CCW permits.

Why is everyone ignoring Gene's posts on UOC??

The long term effect of UOC today is to make the road to LOC much longer. UOC today may drive much worse things than just a school zone extension. I can't be specific because I don't want to give the other side ideas (*waves at Alison*).

The coalition will challenge a denial for a carry permit with the basic logic being that the only way to bear arms in California is to get a permit. The likely outcome for a whole lot of legal reasons is that sheriffs will be compelled to issue CCWs. CCWs exempt you from all the mess made by the new UOC restrictions to come.

Now challenging the law to get LOC after we get shall issue CCW becomes that much harder.

That, plus potentially making life much more difficult for all California gun owners in the 24 to 36 month interval between passage and the coalition being able to get carry cases nearly final is just a horrible (and very likely) outcome of UOCing today.

-Gene

hawk1
07-21-2009, 8:00 PM
The only thing I can add is it would help if you were employed. If for some reason you get arrested, you'll need it to pay for a good attorney. For this kind of defense, it's best to not have a public defender. If you decide not to get a job, then have at least $40k in the bank to fund your defense.

n2k
07-21-2009, 8:07 PM
Why is everyone ignoring Gene's posts on UOC??

+1

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=162385

coolusername2007
07-21-2009, 8:12 PM
No offense but my opinion is that open carrying in public is just another way to be a show-off.

No offense taken. Show off...no. 2A educator...yes. Nothing about OC'ing is showing off in my opinion. To me its a vital part of insuring all of our constitutional rights, not just the 2A but also the 9th. Personally, I never understood conceal carry.

coolusername2007
07-21-2009, 8:19 PM
....and it looks ridiculous.

Reason enough that they should just allow us all to carry concealed. ;)

Not nearly as ridiculous as those stupid cellphone bluetooth earpieces! Now that's ridiculous. In the interest of full disclosure, yes I have one (but only wear it while driving...yes I abide by those laws too.) :phone:

Rob360
07-21-2009, 8:22 PM
Not nearly as ridiculous as those stupid cellphone bluetooth earpieces! Now that's ridiculous. In the interest of full disclosure, yes I have one (but only wear it while driving...yes I abide by those laws too.) :phone:

Agreed!

grammaton76
07-21-2009, 8:22 PM
Also, the San Diego OC folks should be asked/encouraged to assist with the organization and attendance.

We certainly can be convinced to help out. As I said earlier, there's a lot that we've learned from our previous events that we ought to start sharing.

Here's an idea, how about a three day event...LA, SD, and the Inland Empire. Labor day weekend would fit the bill.

TBH, I really don't recommend this. The larger an event gets, the harder it is to correctly survey school zones, check muni ordinances, etc. Doing some coordinated three day three area thing would be an epic mess.

First things first: Your event NEEDS to be planned out a month in advance, if it's your first. Minimum.

Second: You've got to get someone digging through Muni codes, and someone taking a survey of areas. Then, start the happy fun joys of digging for schools.

Third: Your first event should be relatively stationary. DON'T go planning an open carry road march or a downtown stroll for your first event. We didn't - we had our first TWO meetings at El Indio (a Mexican restaurant).

Ok, I'm going to stop typing here and start writing something that won't get buried after a few comments... TGW or notillegalyet.com, that's the question... :)

hkusp9c
07-21-2009, 8:29 PM
In LA? I prolly cant even walk around with a water pistol in my holster.

Enzyme
07-21-2009, 9:17 PM
Gonna have to pass on this one. I just don't think we're even close to there yet.

nickvig
07-21-2009, 9:22 PM
+1

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=162385


There's the thread I was looking for. Gratzi.

Riodog
07-21-2009, 9:25 PM
Why is everyone ignoring Gene's posts on UOC??

Because the UOC's are attention whores and through their blindness can't see the damage they are doing to the entire cause in this state.
Rio

MallNinja
07-21-2009, 9:30 PM
I recreationally drink too much so I can't open carry. Sorry. :p But I really believe that public awareness is important and may make people at ease somewhere in the future which may lead to CCW someday. Maybe LEO will get so sick of checking for loaded firearms that they'll start to respond to calls by telling people "It's legal to open carry ma'am." Buenos suerte!

CitaDeL
07-21-2009, 9:39 PM
Actually, you SHOULD be there. With a camcorder - you actually would be contributing more to the group's safety than the guys with guns on their hips.

To the group in general:

I need to hassle Nathan some on this point, but the San Diego group has been fairly successful so far, and we should be publishing sort of a how-to. We've got some internal checklists we've worked up for our group, but we haven't created anything that's exactly "codified", as a "here's the recipe to holding an event that SHOULDN'T get you in trouble".

Here's some of the off the top of my head things:

There are some non-obvious things - i.e. checking Muni code (San Diego can ticket you for open carrying in a city park for instance, $250) and you should have good ratio of open carriers to non open carriers.

TRY to never get split up into groups of less than 6 individuals - we found that the smaller our groups got at the Boardwalk event in Feb, the more negative reaction we got. A couple of guys strolling around with guns are maybe a couple of nutcases; a large group taking a walk is a civil rights group. That's public perception for ya.

TRY to have some minorities. If you're 90% white males, then I'm sorry but you aren't going to get through to the minorities AT ALL. We're struggling to get more women and minorities involved in the SD group, because being mostly white males DOES carry a very negative stigma in our society now.

As for open carrying alone - if you're new to it, I have to advise you not to go alone. At the very bare minimum have a non-armed witness with you at all times (even pullnshoot25 tends to go out WITH someone most of the time during non-events), and BOTH YOU AND THE WITNESS need to have adequate recording devices on you.

It is also CRUCIAL that your witness understand his/her FIRST amendment rights as clearly as you understand your second amendment rights. If the guy is intimidated by the police into turning off or surrendering his recorder, he is nearly useless.

RECORDERS ARE NEVER TO BE TURNED OFF! This can't be under-stated. And if an open carrier is too cheap to buy a digital voice recorder for his own protection (removable media can easily "disappear" during a search), then he is too cheap to defend himself and owes it to himself and the movement to leave his gun at home.

BTW, also be aware that when they are checking you during an illegally extended 12031 and going into warrantless searches, they may remove your voice recorder and "accidentally" turn it off or set it on the hood of a running car. The audio is then pretty much useless.

To sum it up: I'm not saying don't do it, I am however saying be careful, and bring witnesses whenever you're on your own... and be very careful in planning your location if you do a 'meet'.

NEVER just rely on "I don't know that school is there"... you have to physically walk recon around your prospective meeting area while NOT open carrying in order to check for schools. If you're not walking but driving, then there should be multiple passengers watching for schools. And you drive a GRID pattern, every street and side street for 1000' (~.2mi) around your meeting point. A school 900' away on the other side of the freeway that you can't even get to without driving half a mile, STILL counts. Be cautious. And DON'T trust city maps - they don't maintain perfectly updated maps of the schools, and are not obligated to.

^
This.

I dont really have anything friendly to say to the name calling dissenters. I know the mere mention of this will be adequate to elicit a unsolicited response in spite of my restraint.

MiguelS
07-21-2009, 9:55 PM
I recreationally drink too much so I can't open carry. Sorry. :p But I really believe that public awareness is important and may make people at ease somewhere in the future which may lead to CCW someday. Maybe LEO will get so sick of checking for loaded firearms that they'll start to respond to calls by telling people "It's legal to open carry ma'am." Buenos suerte!

But anyone can over-react and call 911 with:,

Caller:"There are some people walking down the street carrying a gun and some other people walking towards them with guns as well."

Operator: "Ma'am, what else is happening?"

Caller:" I don't know, I got in my car in drove away fast"


You never know you have an unloaded weapon until you verify it yourself.

Just be safe out there.

coolusername2007
07-21-2009, 9:57 PM
Why is everyone ignoring Gene's posts on UOC??

Because, while I respect Gene and celebrate and support all he and others around him do, I disagree with respect to OC. Not trying to offend anyone, just saying. After lurking around calguns for a short while and placing a few posts, it seems to me that the big issue here is conceal carry. While I respect folks wanting the priviledge, its not for me, other than not having to worry about gun free school carnage zones while going about my business. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to ruin the possibility of CC for anyone, but that's not my fight, I'll stick to my rights, and let others battle for priviledges.

Besides that, and I could be wrong here, but Gene's original post about his non-OC position came before Heller and Nordyke. Gene updated and re-affirmed his position post Nordyke. That's what I don't get, Nordyke incorporated the 2A to CA!!! That's huge, why worry about it now. I'm not a legal scholar but I don't see how OC post Nordyke can be considered premature. It makes little to no sense to me. Anything beyond the 9th circuit is SCOTUS and what we do locally will not affect their decision to take up the issue in any way whatsoever. The CA legislature is going to do what its going to do. There's not a soul here that can impact their liberal, unconstitutional actions. Sorry, but that's reality. Here in CA our best hope for positive gun change through the legislature will occur after 2011 when the political districts get re-drawn out of the control of the politicians.

Finally, nobody should do anything, much less OC'ing, and expect financial support from anyone. What ever happened to being responsible for your own decisions and/or any consequences there after? Moral support...absolutely, money...don't count on it.

lorax3
07-21-2009, 10:02 PM
The points that grammaton76 made (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2804439&postcount=19) cannot be stressed enough. I am not going to get into schools of thought on open carry as there are plenty of those around (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=204747) however one must realize how dangerous this can be if proper research is not done.

Should you miscalculate the distance of a school you and everyone else carrying in your group just lost the right to carry a firearm for the next ten years. Not to mention the obvious misdemeanor or possible felony.

There is not one resource for all the open carry laws, every single city, and county have different firearm prohibitions. The constitutionality of such prohibitions are irrelevant, if you break them, you will be charged.

Not to discourage anyone, however this is real, and there are real life consequences.

hawk1
07-21-2009, 10:36 PM
Because the UOC's are attention whores and through their blindness can't see the damage they are doing to the entire cause in this state.
Rio

+1 That about sums it up.

Be sure you're ready to pay the bill for your defense, if need be...

locosway
07-21-2009, 11:40 PM
I wouldn't say it's all for attention. If I ever were to do it, it wouldn't be for attention. I'm not a huge fan of UOC, however LOC and maybe CC is where it's at for me. While I am willing to UOC for events that need to go on for public awareness, I'm also aware of how sensitive the issue is at this time. While we might have incorporation now we aren't done fighting. Our time will come, and haste may just give us more problems.

SPUTTER
07-22-2009, 12:41 AM
Where's PullNShoot, he knows all about "open carry".

eccvets
07-22-2009, 2:40 AM
pass although I'll come to your funeral...

LAPD don't F*CK around... seriously!

Bird of Fire
07-22-2009, 8:27 AM
I love this subject when it comes up.

Those that have done it give solid advice and what to do to prepare.

Those that haven't call those that do attention whores, or that they'll get shot in an attempts to scare them from doing it.

So much for being on the same team I guess. :)

grammaton76
07-22-2009, 9:55 AM
I love this subject when it comes up.

Those that have done it give solid advice and what to do to prepare.

Those that haven't call those that do attention whores, or that they'll get shot in an attempts to scare them from doing it.

So much for being on the same team I guess. :)

Please, make sure you correctly understand what those of us who have done it are saying.

I've done it at each of the official San Diego events so far (and, when circumstances require, a few other times). Nathan does it much more frequently. We've both been extensively involved in event planning in San Diego.

I am NOT going to tell you guys "go ahead" - in fact, for a few reasons I actually would like to see this event (if you guys are going to have it) delayed until after the deadline for the Governor's signature on the bills that are going to pass. IIRC, that happens in August or September; we are close already.

If the NRA should perform an 11th hour attempt to make the school zone bill go away, I would prefer not to have Los Angeles reps with a fresh memory and extra polarization behind them pushing against it.

Should the bill pass, I would also like NOT to have a bunch of LA guys show up to the event, learn the laws as they apply at that time, and then possibly not get notified of the 1500' size upgrade and then get popped for 626.9 in their own open carry activities later on. Right now, there are San Diego open carriers who AREN'T Calgunners running around half-cocked with inadequate UOC knowledge (i.e. they read the Reader article and THAT'S all it took to get 'em off and running, without adequate research). There's a significant risk that some of these guys won't be reached before they blunder into 626.9.

That having been said, those of us involved in the San Diego event planning would like to help ensure that this event, if it must be held right away, be held as safely as possible. That's why we're willing to provide as much expertise as possible; it should not be confused with endorsement of the timeline.

Guys, your enthusiasm is admirable and I WILL help with planning (but I'm not dragging myself to LA for it), but I DO think holding off until after the bill deadline is a sound strategic decision.

Bird of Fire
07-22-2009, 10:37 AM
Please, make sure you correctly understand what those of us who have done it are saying.

I've done it at each of the official San Diego events so far (and, when circumstances require, a few other times). Nathan does it much more frequently. We've both been extensively involved in event planning in San Diego.


No I understand completely. I followed the postings of the san diego event and I feel that your group put on a perfect display of "what to do" when organizing such an event. It was ....well perfect.

The OP seems as though he almost wants to antagonize or disrupt the police by doing it near their HQ. No mention of scouting for areas, checking school distances, or speaking with someone from the PD face to face to give them a heads up, or see of there are any other city ordinances against doing so in specific areas. Or even a place to go and do it in a social type atmosphere such as a restaurant where you don't come across as a whackjob with an empty gun on your hip and a sign affirming gun rights now.

The advice you gave is very well thought out and how to do so properly while actually connecting with the public on a social level and making them aware as opposed to scaring them off. When you say "now's not the time" you speak from a tactical standpoint with reasons and arguments to back up your thought process. Those that say "No because you'll get shot in the face by the PD" are no better than a gun shop spreading FUD over the legality of an OLL if you ask me. Dissension within the ranks is a problem, and no different than a hunter with a bolt rifle saying that AR-15 owners have no good reason to own what they do.

Now if you asked me to go stand near a police station unannounced with a group of 25 people carrying openly with no rhyme or reason past that to do so, I'd tell you to go get bent. Now if you asked me to attend your type of event...I would not only go, I would bring the wife (sorry she's white, but I'm half mexican if that counts :D ) and ask what else I could do to help were I in the area.

I'm glad he wants to do it, but he needs to have the proper intent and reason to do so.

frankym
07-22-2009, 11:14 AM
Guys, your enthusiasm is admirable and I WILL help with planning (but I'm not dragging myself to LA for it), but I DO think holding off until after the bill deadline is a sound strategic decision.

What bill is this exactly? :confused:

link would be great ... thanks

grammaton76
07-22-2009, 11:24 AM
What bill is this exactly? :confused:

link would be great ... thanks

AB668.

http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=ab668&year=2009

Please, if you're going to write about this bill, DO NOT MENTION OPEN CARRY! Mention that it's going to prevent people within school zones without garages to park in, from EVER taking their guns out of their houses again due to the lack of a locked container provision.

Mention that it will grossly expand gun-free zones and make potential felons out of TENS of thousands of Californians who don't know where the nearest school is when they take their guns out to the range.

DO NOT mention open carry whatsoever when you voice your opposition - that's about the best way to get a "yes" vote out of your representative.

jazman
07-22-2009, 11:44 AM
So what will you do if some punk or a group of punks come up to you with illegally cc guns and takes your gun from you? Don't care how fast you may be able to load that UOC gun, if someone wants it they will have it. With a loaded gun or knife stuck in your face your gun is now in the hands of punks. How will you feel then? I'd worry more about that than LEOs.

grammaton76
07-22-2009, 11:48 AM
So what will you do if some punk or a group of punks come up to you with illegally cc guns and takes your gun from you? Don't care how fast you may be able to load that UOC gun, if someone wants it they will have it. With a loaded gun or knife stuck in your face your gun is now in the hands of punks. How will you feel then? I'd worry more about that than LEOs.

Reality check time.

At the San Diego mission beach event, our group of 40 people had no such issues. Captain Zimmerman informed me that they usually take a couple of illegally concealed, LOADED weapons off of punks EVERY WEEKEND in that area - and that's just the ones they catch.

It is almost guaranteed that we passed SEVERAL illegal CC'ers during the Mission Beach event.

Chances are that we passed, and they pissed (their pants).

At the Reader interview, the stoner hippie dork in the initial part THOUGHT about it (I could tell) just after Nathan and Sam walked off because I was ALONE at the time. He asked me to take it out to show him, I declined and told him it could be considered a crime as soon as I take it from my holster. He got this stupid grin on his face and his eyes lit up, and I told him "don't even try - it's a level 3 retention holster, and you WILL be hurt if you try to grab it." He sort of got this whipped puppy dog expression afterwards.

Punks are NOT going to try to take guns from a large group. They MAY try to take guns from a couple of people walking in isolation and in TOTAL DISREGARD for our safety guidelines (open carry in groups of NEVER any less than 4+1 non-OC escort, 6+ is far preferable).

Even though SD and LA are different areas, I guarantee you that if "mug an open carrier for his gun" were a popular strategy, by now (with over a year of open carrying most of the time) Nathan would not have his Tracker. Nothing against him, but he DOES have a small frame and is unassuming, and he has open carried on numerous occasions. I can see them leaving me alone due to the "looks like a cop" thing possibly, but for Nathan there is no such disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying "this point is invalid, go open carry". I am saying, "this point is invalid, but consider the other reasons not to for the time being."

frankym
07-22-2009, 11:54 AM
So what will you do if some punk or a group of punks come up to you with illegally cc guns and takes your gun from you? Don't care how fast you may be able to load that UOC gun, if someone wants it they will have it. With a loaded gun or knife stuck in your face your gun is now in the hands of punks. How will you feel then? I'd worry more about that than LEOs.


You'd really be more worried about that than LEOs? :shrug:

Ridiculous.

7x57
07-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Interesting. And yet, there has never been a Calguns table at the Glendale Gun Show, so far as I know the last one that hasn't been chased out of LA county. So far as I know there are still no volunteers to set one up, either. (Before you ask, I already work the NRA table there--if logistics had permitted it I'd have even had Calguns material on the NRA table at the last show.)

What should I conclude from the fact that people can't be bothered to recruit LA county members? What does it say about people's willingness to do the hard work?

7x57

frankym
07-22-2009, 12:15 PM
Interesting. And yet, there has never been a Calguns table at the Glendale Gun Show, so far as I know the last one that hasn't been chased out of LA county. So far as I know there are still no volunteers to set one up, either. (Before you ask, I already work the NRA table there--if logistics had permitted it I'd have even had Calguns material on the NRA table at the last show.)

What should I conclude from the fact that people can't be bothered to recruit LA county members? What does it say about people's willingness to do the hard work?

7x57


Glendale show coming up, plenty of volunteers originally, but seems the thread went south

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=176760

7x57
07-22-2009, 12:20 PM
Glendale show coming up, plenty of volunteers originally, but seems the thread went south

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=176760

Yeah. It seems dead. My point was that it wouldn't be if people would put a fraction of the effort into it that would be necessary to organize an UOC event in LA county.

Nobody would have to die for the cause, either. ;)

7x57

Grakken
07-22-2009, 12:37 PM
The sheeple will see a group of folks UOCing, will think all hell is about to break loose,flood 911 with "guys with guns...etc) and you will have half of LA LEO's riding in on you. I grew up in LA, have been living in Dago for the past 10 years. LA is NOTHING like San Diego. SD has much less trash, much less gang bangers, much cleaner city, less scum. I'd assume that L.A LEO's are more aggressive because of it (as a whole).

So while you scream "Constitution" and "Nordyke", you will probably find yourself cuffed in the back of a cruiser and in the best case scenerio, they tell you to go home and let you walk all the while educating some LEO's who might not know the legality of UOC. Thats about all the "good" I can see.

Or maybe the real bad guys see you all Carrying and decide to join you in your meet carrying openly as well (maybe concealed) and and and and.. Too many what if's and 99% of them will be negative. Or some fool, not associated with your group, also has a camera and decides to put his video on Youtube with a negative slant or whatnot. how about if the local news is onscene, you think they will spin the story in our favor? Or do you think they will spin/sensationalize it to attract viewers and scare more sheep? You know once the news reached DeLeon and villawhateverthehell (mayor?), you think they won't sieze that oppurtunity? I mean, these are the same folks who think 50 rounds of hangun ammo per month will lower crime.

I'd love to open carry, it IS my right to do so IMHO but the average sheep, especially in LA, don't know and don't care. From a big picture POV, it is not Prudent to hold a "UOC Meet". It only takes 1 person to slip or one cop to get jumpy or one bad guy looking to boost his machismo etc and it's game over.

TitanCi
07-22-2009, 12:46 PM
So I wonder what the OP thinks of organizing a UOC day now?

johnthomas
07-22-2009, 1:01 PM
I do not open carry and see no need for me to. I respect your desire and right to do it. Just be careful, get some tips from the SD groups that have done it and follow the letter of the law. The one thing that I noticed on the pictures of the SD group is that they seem to gravitate towards police cars and mimic police officers. Most folks are intimated by guns in general, when there is a group all carrying, this multiplies the fear factor.

12GaugeLosAngeles
07-22-2009, 1:03 PM
Please, make sure you correctly understand what those of us who have done it are saying.

I've done it at each of the official San Diego events so far (and, when circumstances require, a few other times). Nathan does it much more frequently. We've both been extensively involved in event planning in San Diego.

I am NOT going to tell you guys "go ahead" - in fact, for a few reasons I actually would like to see this event (if you guys are going to have it) delayed until after the deadline for the Governor's signature on the bills that are going to pass. IIRC, that happens in August or September; we are close already.

If the NRA should perform an 11th hour attempt to make the school zone bill go away, I would prefer not to have Los Angeles reps with a fresh memory and extra polarization behind them pushing against it.

Should the bill pass, I would also like NOT to have a bunch of LA guys show up to the event, learn the laws as they apply at that time, and then possibly not get notified of the 1500' size upgrade and then get popped for 626.9 in their own open carry activities later on. Right now, there are San Diego open carriers who AREN'T Calgunners running around half-cocked with inadequate UOC knowledge (i.e. they read the Reader article and THAT'S all it took to get 'em off and running, without adequate research). There's a significant risk that some of these guys won't be reached before they blunder into 626.9.

That having been said, those of us involved in the San Diego event planning would like to help ensure that this event, if it must be held right away, be held as safely as possible. That's why we're willing to provide as much expertise as possible; it should not be confused with endorsement of the timeline.

Guys, your enthusiasm is admirable and I WILL help with planning (but I'm not dragging myself to LA for it), but I DO think holding off until after the bill deadline is a sound strategic decision.


After reading all these replies, it's not that i think most of you guys are scared, it just seems the complicated laws, and fear of being shot has successfully made OC virtually unheard of. Really dissapointed, but i guess to each his own, i open carry when i have to, and all i get is "your a cop" I guess the misleading sight of Open Carry is even a shock to avid gun shooters... I wish the guys in Arizona and Texas read this thread. So i guess there will be no meet. What a shame.. I though Calguns.net was the place to meet gun right activists that could protest is a civil and professional way. The California law makers have..... WON. I'm ashamed to say i'm Californian now.. here i come Arizona.

jazman
07-22-2009, 2:00 PM
After reading all these replies, it's not that i think most of you guys are scared, it just seems the complicated laws, and fear of being shot has successfully made OC virtually unheard of. Really dissapointed, but i guess to each his own, i open carry when i have to, and all i get is "your a cop" I guess the misleading sight of Open Carry is even a shock to avid gun shooters... I wish the guys in Arizona and Texas read this thread. So i guess there will be no meet. What a shame.. I though Calguns.net was the place to meet gun right activists that could protest is a civil and professional way. The California law makers have..... WON. I'm ashamed to say i'm Californian now.. here i come Arizona.

Yes, talk to Texans...OC is illegal in Texas far as I know.
Oh, and do read up on Theseus here in CGs. He is a very experienced OCer, knows all the laws and does everything right. He does it to protect his wife and kids, not just to act tough or show off. He got nailed on a BS charge, but he is still fighting it and has been for the past 8 or 9 months. Cost is north of $40,000.00, yes you read that right, $40K. Plus he may lose his right to own firearms for at least 10 years. So, yes, go ahead and protest in a civil and professional way but be ready for trouble if it comes up...and have a bunch of money to fight it.
Link to Theseus thread, also check out many more OC threads in the 2nd Amend. Politics and Laws section of CalGuns:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=142379

Bird of Fire
07-22-2009, 2:11 PM
After reading all these replies, it's not that i think most of you guys are scared, it just seems the complicated laws, and fear of being shot has successfully made OC virtually unheard of. Really dissapointed, but i guess to each his own, i open carry when i have to, and all i get is "your a cop" I guess the misleading sight of Open Carry is even a shock to avid gun shooters... I wish the guys in Arizona and Texas read this thread. So i guess there will be no meet. What a shame.. I though Calguns.net was the place to meet gun right activists that could protest is a civil and professional way. The California law makers have..... WON. I'm ashamed to say i'm Californian now.. here i come Arizona.

I've open carried too and taken the necessary precautions. You don't seem to have much thought besides "Hey we should open carry" and that's it. So....yeah no thank you.

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 11:18 AM
I've open carried too and taken the necessary precautions. You don't seem to have much thought besides "Hey we should open carry" and that's it. So....yeah no thank you.

Well, as a first thought the "Hey we should open carry" thought isn't a bad one. Agreed the antagonistic approach would not be well advised. Now if 12Gauge (and others) are willing to do it right, re-examine their intent then we could move forward. And the folks in SD have openly said they would help then on to the next step.

Another thought is LA is obviously a huge area and I don't think we would have to limit ourselves to LA city proper, but somewhere within the metro area is good enough for me, pick a pro-gun area if possible. I'm OK with meeting at a restaurant, beach area, maybe a mall area, etc. And let's make the most of the opportunity and be prepared with loads of informational flyers.

A post has been made at OCDO, perhaps we move the discussion there for better support and guidance.

Finally, Bird of Fire, how about organizing something in the high desert? Don't want to put you on the spot, but I need a really good excuse to get out visiting my in-laws in Canyon Country. Wanna help a brother? :)

locosway
07-23-2009, 11:56 AM
I know of a business in Canyon Country that would allow OC to happen (my aunt owns it). Only problem is 2 businesses over is a bank, so I don't know how that would work out.

CitaDeL
07-23-2009, 12:42 PM
I know of a business in Canyon Country that would allow OC to happen (my aunt owns it). Only problem is 2 businesses over is a bank, so I don't know how that would work out.

A bank is not a school. There are no legal prohibitions to carrying firearms into or in the vicinity of banks.

Personally, I've carried exposed into banks before- with no ill effect.

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 1:01 PM
I know of a business in Canyon Country that would allow OC to happen (my aunt owns it). Only problem is 2 businesses over is a bank, so I don't know how that would work out.

Any schools within 1k ft? I don't live in CC, so either you or someone else organize and I'll attend. Can't wait to see my wife's face when I say "Honey, let's go visit your Mom!" Talk about priceless on so many fronts! :)

flatovercrest
07-23-2009, 2:11 PM
Open carry in LA eh? That's all we need to piss off LEOs and politicians and make them create even tougher gun laws in the state..
Please behave people..

CharlieK
07-23-2009, 3:10 PM
My boyfriend UOC's all the time when he walks the dog. I have too several times. Neither of us have ever had a problem. There are no schools w/i 1000'. He often walks past retired motorcycle cops watching over the film shoots. They've never said a thing.

We're up for an outing...cuz we can.

AJAX22
07-23-2009, 3:57 PM
I've been wanting to do an UOC coffee shop meeting in LA for several years (I even got a rig for my sig 226r)

consensus has been that the time has yet to come.... But thats not saying that a group of guys with a huge set of balls on them couldn't push the timetable up a bit.

While it is best to have a measured pace to this kind of stuff (and pushing for the 2A in general, the LEA's tend to swollow the truth slowly and only a little at a time) It doesn't get advanced without the action of a few guys who lay it all on the line.

perhaps start with a group BBQ on private property or at a private restaurant venue (like what they started with down in San Diego)

Or get a willing coffee shop on board (I know a great little place over off off washington in Culver city) and hold something there.

And call the various PD's a week ahead of time, and send them a certified letter stating your groups itinerary so they won't be able to fall back on the "we had no way of knowing that they were a law abiding protest group" b.s.

locosway
07-23-2009, 4:38 PM
I don't believe there are any schools within a mile. She owns a small yogurt shop in a new mall. I haven't talked to her about it yet, but I don't see any issues coming up from an UOC event there.

I do however believe Gene wants us to not UOC until after August, which would be enough time to plan and organize. I personally wouldn't want to organize such an event because I've never OC'd before.

Jonathan Doe
07-23-2009, 4:47 PM
As much as I understand the UOC is the right, I don't understand the point. What good does an empty guns do? I think there is too much risk than benefit. LEO's carry openly with badge and/or usome kind of uniform. Just a gun without any form of ID may give people a wrong idea. Average people do not know if the guns are loaded or not. What if they call the polce and they come with guns drawn?

locosway
07-23-2009, 4:48 PM
As much as I understand the UOC is the right, I don't understand the point. What good does an empty guns do? I think there is too much risk than benefit. LEO's carry openly with badge and/or usome kind of uniform. Just a gun without any form of ID may give people a wrong idea. Average people do not know if the guns are loaded or not. What if they call the polce and they come with guns drawn?

We can all wear those introduction name tags. Hello, my name is _________.

flatovercrest
07-23-2009, 5:14 PM
As much as I understand the UOC is the right, I don't understand the point. What good does an empty guns do? I think there is too much risk than benefit. LEO's carry openly with badge and/or usome kind of uniform. Just a gun without any form of ID may give people a wrong idea. Average people do not know if the guns are loaded or not. What if they call the polce and they come with guns drawn?

Yes, I agree with you 100%. But by reading some of the posts on this thread it seems to me like a bunch of kids looking for trouble or with too much time in their hands...

locosway
07-23-2009, 5:15 PM
Yes, I agree with you 100%. But by reading some of the posts on this thread it seems to me like a bunch of kids looking for trouble or with too much time in their hands...

If you have nothing nice to say, then perhaps nothing should be said?

flatovercrest
07-23-2009, 5:24 PM
If you have nothing nice to say, then perhaps nothing should be said?

Totally agree, I'll refrain from further posting on the subject. Sorry.

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 5:31 PM
As much as I understand the UOC is the right, I don't understand the point. What good does an empty guns do? I think there is too much risk than benefit. LEO's carry openly with badge and/or usome kind of uniform. Just a gun without any form of ID may give people a wrong idea. Average people do not know if the guns are loaded or not. What if they call the polce and they come with guns drawn?

Well...whatever you do, DO NOT make any sudden moves!!! :eek: Jesus guys we are talking about an organized event with sufficient LE notification, they would already know we are there. If they choose such an approach the video cameras would catch it all. And we'd preferably be in an establishment with prior approval of our attendance.

meloki03
07-23-2009, 6:22 PM
So, whatever happened? Who died? The LAPD will kill all of you, NAZI style. FOX will come in and call you all American Born Terrorists and it will be justified. Police become police to open carry, what makes you think they value your right to do so? IT’S LEGAL!!! However, unlikely tolerated. They will be soooo pissed to see you armed legal or not. They will make a legal situation illegal for you. If you value your freedom, move to a free state or declare independence from your oppressors and risk incarceration and/or death. People in other countries are forced to make life altering decisions every day knowing the tyranny and injustice world oppressors will cause. These people carry guns to protect themselves, legal or not. As do gang-members. Most of you are mentally incarcerated already; hence this plan never saw action.

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 6:28 PM
I don't believe there are any schools within a mile. She owns a small yogurt shop in a new mall. I haven't talked to her about it yet, but I don't see any issues coming up from an UOC event there.

I do however believe Gene wants us to not UOC until after August, which would be enough time to plan and organize. I personally wouldn't want to organize such an event because I've never OC'd before.

OK, guys please work the program, lest others think we are a bunch of kids with too much time on our hands. Oops, too late. :nono:

Step 1: Don't believe there aren't any schools, KNOW there aren't any schools. Get the address and verify, then report back.

Step 2: Ask your Aunt! She may very well not want this kind of attention. My suggestion...tell her there's no such thing as bad press and we promise to buy lots of yogurt! I recommend lots of groveling. Plus she will have the love and adoration of the entire pro 2A movement.

Step 3: Date. Again the labor day weekend would meet all the criteria suggested. By the way I believe, and no malice here, come 8-31 Gene will merely update/re-affirm his position with a new date. Just sayin'.

locosway
07-23-2009, 6:38 PM
I'll be talking to her this Saturday, and I usually advise her on business matters and advertising. If I tell her I'm bringing a group of people for yogurt and they're paying customers, I don't think there will be any problems. She's pro-gun as well and I've been trying to get her to CC inside her own stores.

walter
07-23-2009, 7:02 PM
I'm done but I live in NorCal. I would love to get shot by the cops, lawsuit baby

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 7:04 PM
I'll be talking to her this Saturday, and I usually advise her on business matters and advertising. If I tell her I'm bringing a group of people for yogurt and they're paying customers, I don't think there will be any problems. She's pro-gun as well and I've been trying to get her to CC inside her own stores.

Very cool. Looking forward to your update.

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 7:12 PM
I'm done but I live in NorCal. I would love to get shot by the cops, lawsuit baby

I pray for neither shots or lawsuits. Just a good time with like-minded guys and gals, and perhaps some good food or dessert. Not to mention a cool video of the entire event.

meloki03
07-23-2009, 7:45 PM
I would like to apologize for my sarcastic remarks regarding this thread. I honestly think it’s a great idea for people to exercise their rights. Rights are like muscles, they go away without exercise. Maybe since this isn’t exactly a protest, no one will die. I don’t know. American’s live in fear because we think that everything great will be taken away. Our lack of action is the cause of our deprivation. I can see that some people are taking this thread seriously and I admire and respect those willing to stand outside the norm. I would love to participate in a positive event like this; I will continue to check back for progress.

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 8:03 PM
I would like to apologize for my sarcastic remarks regarding this thread. I honestly think itís a great idea for people to exercise their rights. Rights are like muscles, they go away without exercise. Maybe since this isnít exactly a protest, no one will die. I donít know. Americanís live in fear because we think that everything great will be taken away. Our lack of action is the cause of our deprivation. I can see that some people are taking this thread seriously and I admire and respect those willing to stand outside the norm. I would love to participate in a positive event like this; I will continue to check back for progress.

Very cool. Wasn't real sure how to take your other post, so I didn't comment. Glad to read you've re-examined. What a country!

locosway
07-23-2009, 8:28 PM
Can someone confirm that Canyon Country is LASD?

locosway
07-23-2009, 8:33 PM
As for the school, I can't use Google maps because their image is 6 months old and the land wasn't developed yet... :(

With that said, I REALLY do not think there are ANY schools within a mile. I'll be up there next week, I'll check around and see what there is.

locosway
07-23-2009, 8:38 PM
I found one school, and it's 1500 feet from the freeway, and her store is on the opposite side of the freeway in a mall complex.

KING_PALM
07-23-2009, 9:39 PM
did anything happen with this?

coolusername2007
07-23-2009, 10:02 PM
I found one school, and it's 1500 feet from the freeway, and her store is on the opposite side of the freeway in a mall complex.

OK, great. Sounds promising. Once you have your Aunt's approval we can PM the location to all who want to attend (don't know if I'd post publicly on the net). Then at that time others can assist to verify the gun free school carnage zone.

joelberg
07-23-2009, 10:47 PM
Can someone confirm that Canyon Country is LASD?

I grew up in the SCV, Canyon Country is LASD. There is no city police department there, only a Sherriff station that is contracted by the City of Santa Clarita.

GuyW
07-24-2009, 10:12 AM
I've been trying to get her to CC inside her own stores.

start at post 96

"You can only have a loaded gun in your business - not carry. You can carry a concealed but unloaded gun in your business."

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=123231&highlight=overturf&page=10

GuyW
07-24-2009, 10:14 AM
I'm done but I live in NorCal. I would love to get shot by the cops, lawsuit baby

You might get unlucky and encounter one who could actually shoot...

.

locosway
07-24-2009, 10:18 AM
start at post 96

"You can only have a loaded gun in your business - not carry. You can carry a concealed but unloaded gun in your business."

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=123231&highlight=overturf&page=10

So, when I stroll into a gun store and the employees are LOC then they're in violation of the law?

I'm confused here. Can you show me which PC limits the carrying of loaded firearms in ones business?

GuyW
07-24-2009, 10:20 AM
I'm confused here. Can you show me which PC limits the carrying of loaded firearms in ones business?

Didn't bother to read the link, eh?

.

locosway
07-24-2009, 10:26 AM
Didn't bother to read the link, eh?

.

I saw two people arguing and stopped. Then I found the Overturf posting.

I must say I'm dumbfounded by what I've read. Who is to say what you can and can't do in your own business or home?

So this means when I see people carrying in their own stores that they're in violation of CA law?

GM4spd
07-24-2009, 10:44 AM
The UOC exercise does nothing to help the gun fraternity.
It only adds to the public's and media's misgivings about the gun "nut"
syndrome. Pete

Midian
07-24-2009, 11:10 AM
What about moving it to Ventura County?

It'll be 20 degrees cooler for one.

Won't have to deal with any LA County B.S. or any of their fine law enforcement professionals.

Maybe do something on the Ventura Pier (that might be county or city park, I don't know right off hand...but it might also lead to a psychedelic public freakout) or in some other location like a cool restaurant that is sympathetic to the cause.

Even though beach towns crawl with liberals, especially ones in Toyota Smugmobiles Prisues, they aren't the hopelessly hippie saturated havens inlanders see them to be.

Just an idea.

EBR Works
07-24-2009, 11:20 AM
... especially ones in Toyota Smugmobiles Prisues, they aren't the hopelessly hippie saturated havens inlanders see them to be.


Yep, come to Ventura. Oh...and I drive a Prius, unfortunately. I despise most Prius drivers. How ironic is that? It's the perfect black rifle range transport car with complete stealth... :D

locosway
07-24-2009, 11:24 AM
Yep, come to Ventura. Oh...and I drive a Prius, unfortunately. I despise most Prius drivers. How ironic is that? It's the perfect black rifle range transport car with complete stealth... :D

I feel like the typical stereotype... Large white male, unshaven, driving a big diesel pickup truck...

I mean, if anyone shouldn't be promoting the cause it's me.. :rolleyes:

GuyW
07-24-2009, 11:45 AM
I must say I'm dumbfounded by what I've read. Who is to say what you can and can't do in your own business or home?

Well, PC 12031 and Overturf may make a great CA RKBA case, that would involve non-criminal, socially responsible plaintiffs (ie homeowners and business owners) without necessitating those messy arrests....; ie law is challenged as violating the 2nd Amendment.


So this means when I see people carrying in their own stores that they're in violation of CA law?

Seems like an inescapable conclusion to me, albeit they haven't been arrested in large numbers....

Anyone in CA who is living, breathing, or moving, is probably in violation of one or more of our stupid laws...

.

.

jazman
07-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Just remember to have $40,000.00 (yes, $40K!) minimum, just in case you get busted for any reason. Your expenses will be on you, as Cal Guns has stated they can not and will not monetarily support any open carry cases. If you don't have that kind of money, what in the world will you do if you happen to get arrested? Theseus has been fighting his case for 8 or 9 months, and remember, he knew what he was doing and still got stung on a b.s. charge. Plus if he loses his case, he may also lose all of his guns for at least 10 years. Read the many UOC threads in the second amendment section; you all may want to re-think this. Could be expensive yogurt.

locosway
07-24-2009, 11:52 AM
Furthermore, the law or ruling actually, says that one can possess but not carry, and they define carry as transporting or moving. So how is one to possess but not carry if they are to move or transport the firearm between rooms, unload it, secure it, or any other action that would require one to "carry" the firearm without actually violating the law?

Neil McCauley
07-24-2009, 11:52 AM
What if we OC but we just bring airsoft just in case to be on the safe side? :D

locosway
07-24-2009, 11:53 AM
Just remember to have $40,000.00 (yes, $40K!) minimum, just in case you get busted for any reason. Your expenses will be on you, as Cal Guns has stated they can not and will not monetarily support any open carry cases. If you don't have that kind of money, what in the world will you do if you happen to get arrested? Theseus has been fighting his case for 8 or 9 months, and remember, he knew what he was doing and still got stung on a b.s. charge. Plus if he loses his case, he may also lose all of his guns for at least 10 years. Read the many UOC threads in the second amendment section; you all may want to re-think this. Could be expensive yogurt.

Not going to argue your point here, and I do agree with the risk involved. However, the same could be said for driving a car. If you were to damage property that was more than your insurance will cover then how would you pay for it?

locosway
07-24-2009, 11:54 AM
What if we OC but we just bring airsoft just in case to be on the safe side? :D

That would be hilarious to say the least.

RaceDay
07-24-2009, 11:54 AM
The UOC exercise does nothing to help the gun fraternity.
It only adds to the public's and media's misgivings about the gun "nut"
syndrome. Pete

+1. I think it just will feed a backlash. Just like militant gay marriage folks ended up getting slapped down by Prop 8.

Why not be patient and let the folks at CGF work their magic?

GuyW
07-24-2009, 11:57 AM
Furthermore, the law or ruling actually, says that one can possess but not carry, and they define carry as transporting or moving. So how is one to possess but not carry if they are to move or transport the firearm between rooms, unload it, secure it, or any other action that would require one to "carry" the firearm without actually violating the law?

Again, I attempt to "harmonize" these disparate concepts by saying that the difference is transitory possesion (aka "have") vs substantial possesion:

OK to pick it up and move it to a new location, NOT OK to carry it for a long period in a belt holster (as examples).

.

locosway
07-24-2009, 11:59 AM
Again, I attempt to "harmonize" these disparate concepts by saying that the difference is transitory possesion (aka "have") vs substantial possesion:

OK to pick it up and move it to a new location, NOT OK to carry it for a long period in a belt holster (as examples).

.

What if you were to move a handgun between rooms in your holster? I mean, that's what I would do so I don't walk around waving a gun around.

GuyW
07-24-2009, 11:59 AM
What if we OC but we just bring airsoft just in case to be on the safe side? :D

....'cause replica guns have as great or greater criminal violation penalties than OC of an actual firearm??

Neil McCauley
07-24-2009, 12:01 PM
....'cause replica guns have as great or greater criminal violation penalties than OC of an actual firearm??

What if my "replica" firearm is made of wood and a can of black krylon? :D

GuyW
07-24-2009, 12:04 PM
What if you were to move a handgun between rooms in your holster? I mean, that's what I would do so I don't walk around waving a gun around.

Who knows? (ans: no one).

But you probably won't like the answer from a Judge to this "angels on the head of a pin" question....

As someone else posted in another thread (Weise?), CA Judges don't seem to be bothered by disparities and lack of continuity in CA gun laws or guilt therefrom (ie OK to find one guilty of law A, even if law B says its OK), and I'll add, they don't seem to be bothered by the logical inconsistencies or impossibilities of CA gun laws.....they get paid the same, either way...

.

eccvets
07-25-2009, 5:30 AM
Just remember to have $40,000.00 (yes, $40K!) minimum, just in case you get busted for any reason. Your expenses will be on you, as Cal Guns has stated they can not and will not monetarily support any open carry cases. If you don't have that kind of money, what in the world will you do if you happen to get arrested? Theseus has been fighting his case for 8 or 9 months, and remember, he knew what he was doing and still got stung on a b.s. charge. Plus if he loses his case, he may also lose all of his guns for at least 10 years. Read the many UOC threads in the second amendment section; you all may want to re-think this. Could be expensive yogurt.

at that point, why not just put that money towards your get out of jail lawyer and just carry without a permit.

glockwise2000
07-25-2009, 6:04 PM
No offense taken. Show off...no. 2A educator...yes. Nothing about OC'ing is showing off in my opinion. To me its a vital part of insuring all of our constitutional rights, not just the 2A but also the 9th. Personally, I never understood conceal carry.

+1.

I'm in as UOCer or a standby recorder. Just name the place and time.

illuminate10
07-25-2009, 8:39 PM
I'd be up for it if........ we have some LEO's (off duty) with us and badges showing. :o

locosway
07-25-2009, 8:43 PM
I'd be up for it if........ we have some LEO's (off duty) with us and badges showing. :o

Wouldn't this be considered taboo within their department?

Ron-Solo
07-25-2009, 10:39 PM
I'm done but I live in NorCal. I would love to get shot by the cops, lawsuit baby

It is statements like this that make me wonder about the common sense capabilities of members of the OC movement.

You should expect to be challenged by the police AT GUNPOINT - WITH A LOADED GUN by a police officer who doesn't know you from Adam. It doesn't matter if someone 'informed' the station of your gathering. He/She is responding to a 'man with a gun' call and for safety reasons, they are all handled the same for tactical reasons. If you do something stupid at that moment, you should be aware that you could get shot. If it is being videoed, it will be on youtube before you know it. If the officer is in reasonable fear for his/her safety, you (or your heirs) won't get squat in a civil suit.

IMO the OC movement is doing more harm than good for the 2A cause. I was recently in a restaurant where some individuals were engaging in open carry. They looked like thugs and totally disrupted the resturant business. After the police arrived, proned everyone out, and sorted thru the mess, most of the customers were annoyed at the lack of concern for everyone by the OC people. They majority indicated they wanted laws changed to ban OC. That does none of us any good.

locosway
07-25-2009, 10:42 PM
This could be argued the other way as well. Look at the reader article, there was no disruption to any of the businesses or patrons.

I just don't see the point in so much argument. It's legal to UOC, and quite frankly it's safer for the person over LUCC imo. Since it is legal, let's just agree to disagree and stop all the stupid posts about who's right or wrong. No one will ever step down from their position, especially on a rights issue.

johnthomas
07-25-2009, 11:58 PM
This could be argued the other way as well. Look at the reader article, there was no disruption to any of the businesses or patrons.

I just don't see the point in so much argument. It's legal to UOC, and quite frankly it's safer for the person over LUCC imo. Since it is legal, let's just agree to disagree and stop all the stupid posts about who's right or wrong. No one will ever step down from their position, especially on a rights issue.

It is not about whom is right or who is wrong. It is about public acceptance of people walking around with guns strapped. It is about the public opinion we are creating. Face it, nobody wants to feel we are in the wild west. Why are we still able to open carry? Because it has never been an issue. With more and more people doing it, it is becoming an issue. Public awareness creates public opinion. With all that has happened in America the last few years, gangs, school shootings and cop shootings, public opinion is already against us. Is more guns in public really doing the 2a cause any good?

Ron-Solo
07-26-2009, 12:23 AM
It is not about whom is right or who is wrong. It is about public acceptance of people walking around with guns strapped. It is about the public opinion we are creating. Face it, nobody wants to feel we are in the wild west. Why are we still able to open carry? Because it has never been an issue. With more and more people doing it, it is becoming an issue. Public awareness creates public opinion. With all that has happened in America the last few years, gangs, school shootings and cop shootings, public opinion is already against us. Is more guns in public really doing the 2a cause any good?

My point exactly. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Public opinion is critical.

We don't want the public thinking we are a bunch of three towed banjo pluckers with an IQ close to our shoe size, which was the common opinion during the incident I witnessed.

locosway
07-26-2009, 6:17 AM
How is the public every going to accept LOC if people are afraid and unwilling to accept UOC?

The goal for everyone here is to win CCW and LOC for everyone; and it seems that this is supposed to be won by everyone being quiet while lawsuits are filed. Is the issue really that delicate? If so, what happens if the media gets a hold of the law suits? Wouldn't that just ruin any chances of them being successful?

I'm just trying to see both sides here.

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 10:08 AM
Locosway, any updates from your Aunt? Is she OK with us meeting at her shop?

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 10:17 AM
It is not about whom is right or who is wrong. It is about public acceptance of people walking around with guns strapped. It is about the public opinion we are creating. Face it, nobody wants to feel we are in the wild west. Why are we still able to open carry? Because it has never been an issue. With more and more people doing it, it is becoming an issue. Public awareness creates public opinion. With all that has happened in America the last few years, gangs, school shootings and cop shootings, public opinion is already against us. Is more guns in public really doing the 2a cause any good?

BINGO! Your question is the correct question. Answer: YES! Most rational people are willing to listen to the facts. So, have with you the correct facts regarding gun safety, public safety and so on. Then go forth and educate. Question the status quo. Question the gun free school carnage zones and let people think about it. Then inform them they have no constitutional right to police protection. Then remind them the cops did not enter the school at Columbine!

Fantasma
07-26-2009, 10:22 AM
Who wants to go to santee alley and shop for some inexpensive things while open carrying?

lol.

Ron-Solo
07-26-2009, 10:30 AM
Before things are tried in court, everything is tried in the "Court of Public Opinion" These are the people who get nervous by a "bunch of gun toting nut cases" (as they see it) and pressure their legislators to enact bad laws. It is exactly what happened in 89 after one lone man open fire on a school yard full of kids. We don't need that kind of attention.

The recent OC indicent I witnessed was "in your face" and the individuals involved were confrontational when the police did exactly as expected. when the police are pointing very real guns at you, it is not the time for confrontation. Someone is going to get killed because of it.

A bunch of unshaven individuals in camo and biker attire does not lend well to the cause. Image is critical at this point. Choosing the battles to fight is strategic and should be left to the legal eagles on our side.

That is the message many of the "legends" of ths site are trying to get across. This is the time to lay low and wait.

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 10:35 AM
IMO the OC movement is doing more harm than good for the 2A cause. I was recently in a restaurant where some individuals were engaging in open carry. They looked like thugs and totally disrupted the resturant business. After the police arrived, proned everyone out, and sorted thru the mess, most of the customers were annoyed at the lack of concern for everyone by the OC people. They majority indicated they wanted laws changed to ban OC. That does none of us any good.

That's too bad that the OC "thugs" disrupted the peoples lunch or dinner. They should not have done that. Now, move forward. How much did the police intervention contribute to the disruption by questioning law abiding citizens? Did you take the time to inform people that it's their right? Did you ask them if they felt any safer after knowing that any one of them or more could have been loaded conceal carrying without their knowledge?

By the way, heres a somewhat related thought. Where are the well dressed people who OC? Has anyone considered or even gone out OC'ing in business attire, or Sunday's best, or even business casual? Or maybe even a...TIE! OMG! The thought of it! Dress for success...right?

As a pro gunner, that situation needed you to step up and provide some balance to the negative perception the OC'ers may have caused. Despite your position against OC, all pro gunners need to assist each other. I would do the same for someone CC'ing even though I don't see the point to that form of carrying.

locosway
07-26-2009, 11:40 AM
The topic didn't get brought up this Saturday, we were more focused on the two birthday parties. I am however going to her house on Tuesday and we're going shooting. So it will be the perfect time to talk to her about it.

As for the attire of OC'ers... Who says they're all biker looking unshaven jerks? The pictures I've seen from Nate show him wearing normal attire and he's clean shaven. The article in the Reader showed another man who was wearing business casual.

I have a suit and tie, would I still be perceived as being a dirty biker or a thug if I were to OC this way?

It's my impression from experience that if someone is CC or OC while they're in business attire that most people think it's a LEO of some sort. I regularly see detectives and FBI OC in business casual and no one ever gives them a second look.

jazman
07-26-2009, 11:48 AM
The topic didn't get brought up this Saturday, we were more focused on the two birthday parties. I am however going to her house on Tuesday and we're going shooting. So it will be the perfect time to talk to her about it.

As for the attire of OC'ers... Who says they're all biker looking unshaven jerks? The pictures I've seen from Nate show him wearing normal attire and he's clean shaven. The article in the Reader showed another man who was wearing business casual.

I have a suit and tie, would I still be perceived as being a dirty biker or a thug if I were to OC this way?
It's my impression from experience that if someone is CC or OC while they're in business attire that most people think it's a LEO of some sort. I regularly see detectives and FBI OC in business casual and no one ever gives them a second look.

Well, if nothing else if you UOC in a suit you will look pretty foolish with your belt, holster, and gun worn outside your suit jacket, yes?:rolleyes::p

locosway
07-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Well, if nothing else if you UOC in a suit you will look pretty foolish with your belt, holster, and gun worn outside your suit jacket, yes?:rolleyes::p

It's too hot for a jacket. So no, it would look appropriate.

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 1:56 PM
Well, if nothing else if you UOC in a suit you will look pretty foolish with your belt, holster, and gun worn outside your suit jacket, yes?:rolleyes::p

Well now that I think about it a little more, I think the tuxedo shirt is definitely the way to go! With dark sunglasses and half a pack of smokes! That's it, how about a Blues Brothers OC meet?! Who says we can't have some fun laughing at ourselves.

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 2:06 PM
The topic didn't get brought up this Saturday, we were more focused on the two birthday parties. I am however going to her house on Tuesday and we're going shooting. So it will be the perfect time to talk to her about it.

OK, so hopefully we'll have more news by Wednesday. JJ about the blue's brothers garb in my previous post.

johnthomas
07-26-2009, 2:08 PM
It's obvious open carry people are passionate about their open carry rights. All citizens have rights, including not having to live in fear. As pointed out, open carry, if done correctly can be an educational thing. I suspect that most folks don't articulate their views and the laws as well as coolusername2007. Cal gunners are the last people that would step on gun rights. If you guys are offended by concerns, that is not our intentions. Our discussion did make you aware of our concerns and hopefully your open carry experience will be good for you, the public and all California gun owners. As our representatives, please be polite, patient and cordial with the public and police. Make sure everyone in your group is squared away with proper weapons, ammo and holsters.

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 2:31 PM
Before things are tried in court, everything is tried in the "Court of Public Opinion" These are the people who get nervous by a "bunch of gun toting nut cases" (as they see it) and pressure their legislators to enact bad laws. It is exactly what happened in 89 after one lone man open fire on a school yard full of kids. We don't need that kind of attention.

The recent OC indicent I witnessed was "in your face" and the individuals involved were confrontational when the police did exactly as expected. when the police are pointing very real guns at you, it is not the time for confrontation. Someone is going to get killed because of it.

A bunch of unshaven individuals in camo and biker attire does not lend well to the cause. Image is critical at this point. Choosing the battles to fight is strategic and should be left to the legal eagles on our side.

That is the message many of the "legends" of ths site are trying to get across. This is the time to lay low and wait.

I understand what you are saying. But, I don't think public opinion counts here. Public opinion is irrelevant with regards to the bill of rights. We aren't talking about privileges, we are talking about constitutionally protected rights. What would you all do if all of a sudden the 4th amendment got thrown out the window? Would you just allow random searches and seizures? I think not.

And, I still don't get why people are walking around as if on eggshells. The 2nd Amendment was incorporated in CA! It is now the law of this state and will continue to be until the SCOTUS changes it. Further, bad laws get passed by good men doing nothing (and yes this includes me). Sure, let the legal eagles do their work, but that doesn't mean good law abiding citizens have to sit on the sidelines waiting...doing nothing. What good is that? The legal eagles on our side make positive gains, and we are expected to not take advantage of those gains? That makes no sense at all. Take ground, move forward, and don't give it back. That's how you win. Besides, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do, there will be more legal challenges. You can count on it.

By the way, were any arrests made at the restaurant? Or was everyone legal?

MikeinnLA
07-26-2009, 2:46 PM
I can't even get ammo shipped to Los Angeles, how's about we start with THAT? Good luck with the UOC meet.......wear a vest.

Mike

Snake eyes
07-26-2009, 3:02 PM
Some people seem to think the best way to protect our RIGHTS is to never exercise them. They say if we openly and freely exercise our RIGHTS people will get scared/be offended and we will lose our RIGHTS.

I don't understand this thinking. What good are RIGHTS if you're too afraid to ever use them. I understand and am fully aware of the society we live in but I just can't agree with any thinking that says we should deny ourselves our legal RIGHTS under the law, deny ourselves our FREEDOMS because some ignorant and paranoid idiot or idiots might get scared or offended and try to take our RIGHTS away.

Sometimes if you want FREEDOM you have to be willing to fight for it. Sometimes you have to be willing to take risks. I think of the founding fathers, what if Thomas Jefferson had said "We better just keep paying taxes to the British, we don't want to get into trouble. Maybe some day things will change in our favor?"

Ron-Solo
07-26-2009, 10:08 PM
I understand what you are saying. But, I don't think public opinion counts here. Public opinion is irrelevant with regards to the bill of rights.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. It's like talking to the wind. Public opinion is EVERYTHING. You piss off enough people and even the Constitution can be amended, taking away the 2A. We don't need annoyed/panicked/pissed off people running to their legislators demanding they "Do Something" about OC and we get more laws preventing it.

Of the 5 guys at the restuarant, 1 was arrested for a traffic warrant. The others were dusted off and sent on their way after being admonished by the restuarant manager that if they ever came back, OC or not, they would be arrested for trespass.

coolusername2007
07-26-2009, 10:31 PM
I don't think you get what I'm saying. It's like talking to the wind. Public opinion is EVERYTHING. You piss off enough people and even the Constitution can be amended, taking away the 2A. We don't need annoyed/panicked/pissed off people running to their legislators demanding they "Do Something" about OC and we get more laws preventing it.

Of the 5 guys at the restuarant, 1 was arrested for a traffic warrant. The others were dusted off and sent on their way after being admonished by the restuarant manager that if they ever came back, OC or not, they would be arrested for trespass.

Can you please be realistic? The 2A is not going to get amended out of the bill of rights. Geez, man. AFAIK the only amendment that got amended out was prohibition, which wasn't there to begin with. So what you are talking about is something that essentially has NEVER happened.

I would be interested in knowing a little more about the restuarant incident. How did the whole thing playout starting when they walked in.

wildhawker
07-27-2009, 12:13 AM
I understand what you are saying. But, I don't think public opinion counts here. Public opinion is irrelevant with regards to the bill of rights. We aren't talking about privileges, we are talking about constitutionally protected rights. What would you all do if all of a sudden the 4th amendment got thrown out the window? Would you just allow random searches and seizures? I think not.

And, I still don't get why people are walking around as if on eggshells. The 2nd Amendment was incorporated in CA! It is now the law of this state and will continue to be until the SCOTUS changes it. Further, bad laws get passed by good men doing nothing (and yes this includes me). Sure, let the legal eagles do their work, but that doesn't mean good law abiding citizens have to sit on the sidelines waiting...doing nothing. What good is that? The legal eagles on our side make positive gains, and we are expected to not take advantage of those gains? That makes no sense at all. Take ground, move forward, and don't give it back. That's how you win. Besides, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do, there will be more legal challenges. You can count on it.

By the way, were any arrests made at the restaurant? Or was everyone legal?

Did you catch any of the UOC threads where this has been hashed out over the past week or so? Your statement appears to disregard reality and the facts.

Some people seem to think the best way to protect our RIGHTS is to never exercise them. They say if we openly and freely exercise our RIGHTS people will get scared/be offended and we will lose our RIGHTS.

I don't understand this thinking. What good are RIGHTS if you're too afraid to ever use them. I understand and am fully aware of the society we live in but I just can't agree with any thinking that says we should deny ourselves our legal RIGHTS under the law, deny ourselves our FREEDOMS because some ignorant and paranoid idiot or idiots might get scared or offended and try to take our RIGHTS away.

Sometimes if you want FREEDOM you have to be willing to fight for it. Sometimes you have to be willing to take risks. I think of the founding fathers, what if Thomas Jefferson had said "We better just keep paying taxes to the British, we don't want to get into trouble. Maybe some day things will change in our favor?"

I can see that you do not understand, but that doesn't mitigate the real dangers of creating a negative opinion of carry rights before you are on sure footing and undermining the potential for creating/solidifying the right to carry in the near future. What freedoms are you worried about 'losing' in the next few months or years?

BTW, those "ignorant and paranoid idiot or idiots" who "might get scared or offended and try to take our RIGHTS away" tend to make up a larger voting bloc than we [currently] do. Taking risks and taking calculated risks are two different things. I don't think Jefferson would have said in 1774, "F^#@ it, we don't need the rest of the colonies."

locosway
07-27-2009, 12:17 AM
I had already stated I would wait until after August as Gene has asked. Not sure about anyone else.

coolusername2007
07-27-2009, 1:26 AM
Did you catch any of the UOC threads where this has been hashed out over the past week or so? Your statement appears to disregard reality and the facts.

Evidently not. Feel free to post the links and I will read them. Though I am quite aware of reality and facts.

wildhawker
07-27-2009, 1:58 AM
Currently at 650 posts, but should help catch you up:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=204747
Also, see
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=206151
and
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=205469

There are others, but by the time you get done with these you'll need an aspirin :)

Jonathan Doe
07-27-2009, 7:47 AM
2nd Amendment is about the right to keep and bear arms. Does it apply to carry also? If it does, why one wants to carry unloaded? What good is the unloaded gun? use it as a club? I'd rather carry a knife than unloaded gun.

locosway
07-27-2009, 10:44 AM
2nd Amendment is about the right to keep and bear arms. Does it apply to carry also? If it does, why one wants to carry unloaded? What good is the unloaded gun? use it as a club? I'd rather carry a knife than unloaded gun.

A gun can be loaded in seconds.

There seems to be this idea that if you need to use your gun that it will be instant, and there's no time to do anything else. While there will certainly be encounters where you are the target, and quite possibly you will need to react quickly, there are more encounters where you will not be the target.

If you're in 7-11 getting a drink, and someone walks into the store to rob it. Don't you think you may have time to load a gun?

I've seen a lot of talk that if you carry UOC someone is just going to rob you for it. So, the bad guys know it's unloaded but the trained cops think it's loaded? I don't understand that view. So many people contradict themselves on here it's not even funny.

Jonathan Doe
07-27-2009, 1:36 PM
A gun can be loaded in seconds.

There seems to be this idea that if you need to use your gun that it will be instant, and there's no time to do anything else. While there will certainly be encounters where you are the target, and quite possibly you will need to react quickly, there are more encounters where you will not be the target.

If you're in 7-11 getting a drink, and someone walks into the store to rob it. Don't you think you may have time to load a gun?

I've seen a lot of talk that if you carry UOC someone is just going to rob you for it. So, the bad guys know it's unloaded but the trained cops think it's loaded? I don't understand that view. So many people contradict themselves on here it's not even funny.

I didn't realize you are carrying a loaded magazine also. Still, i'd ratehr carry concealed. Element of surprise is there. If carrying a gun is a right, I want to carry concealed.

coolusername2007
07-27-2009, 2:07 PM
I didn't realize you are carrying a loaded magazine also. Still, i'd ratehr carry concealed. Element of surprise is there. If carrying a gun is a right, I want to carry concealed.

I respect that. I want to carry open.

locosway
07-27-2009, 2:26 PM
I want the option of both, oc when I'm alone or running errands in the summer, and cc when I'm with my family or in the winter. I want circumstances to dictate how I carry, not some law maker or gun control group.

Decoligny
07-27-2009, 2:30 PM
So, whatever happened? Who died? The LAPD will kill all of you, NAZI style. FOX will come in and call you all American Born Terrorists and it will be justified. Police become police to open carry, what makes you think they value your right to do so? ITíS LEGAL!!! However, unlikely tolerated. They will be soooo pissed to see you armed legal or not. They will make a legal situation illegal for you. If you value your freedom, move to a free state or declare independence from your oppressors and risk incarceration and/or death. People in other countries are forced to make life altering decisions every day knowing the tyranny and injustice world oppressors will cause. These people carry guns to protect themselves, legal or not. As do gang-members. Most of you are mentally incarcerated already; hence this plan never saw action.

Dude, that is the best impression of a TROLL I have seen in a very long time.

:troll::fud::troll:

coolusername2007
07-27-2009, 3:25 PM
Furthermore, the law or ruling actually, says that one can possess but not carry, and they define carry as transporting or moving. So how is one to possess but not carry if they are to move or transport the firearm between rooms, unload it, secure it, or any other action that would require one to "carry" the firearm without actually violating the law?

So in short, 12031(h) permits a loaded firearm in the person's place of business. 12026(a) and (b) permits the carry of the firearm in the person's place of business. And nobody has explained the gun shop's employees from carrying loaded and there isn't any exemption listed in these PC's for FFL's, so yes you can carry loaded open or concealed in your place of business.

12GaugeLosAngeles
07-27-2009, 10:08 PM
did anything happen with this?


No. noob question...... how do i close this thread? Me being a guy who doesn't give a f***, and believes in his rights as well as obeying the law... i can't stand to read all these comments from the "i don't want to get shot" community. Open carry is legal, seems 95% of these people are scared to death of politicians, laws, and pending court cases form people who probably did break the law. I'm ashamed to be Californian today... I will go to Arizona or Texas soon... YEEEEEHAH!!

wildhawker
07-27-2009, 11:27 PM
What rights do you believe in, exactly? Can you articulate this erection of freedom of which you speak?

No. noob question...... how do i close this thread? Me being a guy who doesn't give a f***, and believes in his rights as well as obeying the law... i can't stand to read all these comments from the "i don't want to get shot" community. Open carry is legal, seems 95% of these people are scared to death of politicians, laws, and pending court cases form people who probably did break the law. I'm ashamed to be Californian today... I will go to Arizona or Texas soon... YEEEEEHAH!!

locosway
07-27-2009, 11:28 PM
heehee, he said erection... hee..heee....

coolusername2007
07-28-2009, 1:55 AM
No. noob question...... how do i close this thread? Me being a guy who doesn't give a f***, and believes in his rights as well as obeying the law... i can't stand to read all these comments from the "i don't want to get shot" community. Open carry is legal, seems 95% of these people are scared to death of politicians, laws, and pending court cases form people who probably did break the law. I'm ashamed to be Californian today... I will go to Arizona or Texas soon... YEEEEEHAH!!

FYI...open carry in Texas is illegal, but you can get a CHL (same as CCW) after background checks, training classes, etc.

Z ME FLY
07-28-2009, 3:52 PM
What rights do you believe in, exactly? Can you articulate this erection of freedom of which you speak?

LOL good one wildhawker

Snake eyes
07-28-2009, 5:05 PM
QUOTE-"I can see that you do not understand, but that doesn't mitigate the real dangers of creating a negative opinion of carry rights before you are on sure footing and undermining the potential for creating/solidifying the right to carry in the near future. What freedoms are you worried about 'losing' in the next few months or years?"-UNQUOTE

Agin this sounds like "Don't open carry NOW, even though it's our legal right, because it might cause us to lose the right to open carry LATER.". As far as creating a "negative opinion", as long as those who open carry obey the law and behave themselves they're not creating a "negative opinion", they're exercising their legal rights. The sheep will always think what they want to think regardless.

As far as "creating/solidifying the right to carry in the near future", I wish it were possible that one day our "gun rights" would be garunteed. I wish they could be made "solid". But the fact is that's just not going to happen. The political landscape is what it is. The nature of democracy is "sometimes you get what you want, sometimes you don't, and even when you do it can always get reversed next time.". Does anyone really believe that the day will come in this country when local, state, and the federal government are all dominated by pro-gun elected officials. That's what I call a fantasy. And even if it happend things could all change with the next election. Laws are passed, laws are changed, laws are repealed. Few rights are ever truly garunteed and you can never control the fears and opinions of the American voter.

I don't believe in denying myself my legal RIGHTS under the law just because people might freak-out and try to repeal those RIGHTS. I don't believe in letting the paranoid masses dictate to me which of my legal RIGHTS I exercise and which ones I supress. I think the greatest insult to FREEDOM is to deny yourself your FREEDOM for fear of losing it.

Jonathan Doe
07-28-2009, 5:35 PM
I will be right behind all the people who open carry. 100% behind.

wildhawker
07-28-2009, 5:43 PM
Our 'right' to [loaded] carry is largely predicated on the sheriff of the county in which we reside (LOC w/o a permit is limited as to be of no real use to most Californians).

As far as creating a "negative opinion", as long as those who open carry obey the law and behave themselves they're not creating a "negative opinion", they're exercising their legal rights. The sheep will always think what they want to think regardless.

I respectfully disagree - the sociopolitical culture of California is not one that is accepting of firearms in public.

Again with the "sheep"/"sheeple" references :rolleyes: Cultures can absolutely be modified with the appropriate pressure(s) and time; to expect or demand (or both) otherwise is foolish and invites further resistance.

As far as "creating/solidifying the right to carry in the near future", I wish it were possible that one day our "gun rights" would be garunteed. I wish they could be made "solid". But the fact is that's just not going to happen. The political landscape is what is is. The nature of democracy is "sometimes you get what you want, sometimes you don't, and even when you do it can always get reversed next time.". Does anyone really believe that the day will come in this country when local, state, and the federal government are all dominated by pro-gun elected officials. That's what I call a fantasy. And even if it happend things could all change with the next election. Laws are passed, laws are changed, laws are repealed. Few rights are ever truly garunteed and you can never control the fears and opinions of the American voter.

I thought that modifying society to accept guns and solidify the right to keep and bear was a founding principle of U/OC? It looks like you've already given up on that - does that mean, then, U/OC really isn't about the education of "sheep" at all? Is U/OC simply an antagonistic outlet to express your frustrations and display your hurt by 'getting back' at the generally-fearful public while you can?

I don't believe in denying myself my legal RIGHTS under the law just because people might freak-out and try to repeal those RIGHTS. I don't believe in letting the paranoid masses dictate to me which of my legal RIGHTS I exercise and which ones I supress. I think the greatest insult to FREEDOM is to deny yourself your FREEDOM for fear of losing it.

So, what you're saying is that you'd rather carry today solely because you 'can' and compromise that right tomorrow, for not only yourself but others as well? If we're talking about fundamental and enumerated rights that you aren't willing to "deny yourself", what other similar rights that are burdened with restrictions and condition do you profess with the same vigor (or any at all)?

QUOTE-"I can see that you do not understand, but that doesn't mitigate the real dangers of creating a negative opinion of carry rights before you are on sure footing and undermining the potential for creating/solidifying the right to carry in the near future. What freedoms are you worried about 'losing' in the next few months or years?"

Agin this sounds like "Don't open carry NOW, even though it's our legal right, because it might cause us to lose the right to open carry LATER.". As far as creating a "negative opinion", as long as those who open carry obey the law and behave themselves they're not creating a "negative opinion", they're exercising their legal rights. The sheep will always think what they want to think regardless.

As far as "creating/solidifying the right to carry in the near future", I wish it were possible that one day our "gun rights" would be garunteed. I wish they could be made "solid". But the fact is that's just not going to happen. The political landscape is what is is. The nature of democracy is "sometimes you get what you want, sometimes you don't, and even when you do it can always get reversed next time.". Does anyone really believe that the day will come in this country when local, state, and the federal government are all dominated by pro-gun elected officials. That's what I call a fantasy. And even if it happend things could all change with the next election. Laws are passed, laws are changed, laws are repealed. Few rights are ever truly garunteed and you can never control the fears and opinions of the American voter.

I don't believe in denying myself my legal RIGHTS under the law just because people might freak-out and try to repeal those RIGHTS. I don't believe in letting the paranoid masses dictate to me which of my legal RIGHTS I exercise and which ones I supress. I think the greatest insult to FREEDOM is to deny yourself your FREEDOM for fear of losing it.

Snake eyes
07-28-2009, 9:19 PM
Wildhawker, perhaps you have more faith in the "public" than I do.

Although many "anti" people can be convinced to accept guns and recognize their value through reasonable, rational discussion, sadly I don't believe this will happen to a large enough degree in this country to cause the population at large to accept the carrying of guns either conceald or open and grant us all the carry rights we desire. You can say that I have accepted defeat but I would say that I am recognizing reality.

As far as my reasons for OC it has nothing to do with making a political statement or trying to change public perception. My motives are not so lofty.
My reasons are simple-
#1- I believe in carrying a gun for self-defense.
#2- I can't get a CC permit where I live(San Diego)
#3- I ride motorcycles and all the protective gear I wear (jacket,gloves) would make it hard to access a concealed gun even if I could CC. Carrying an unloaded 1911 on one hip and a loaded mag on the other increases my accessability and speed. But I'm sure some would debate that.

As far as open carrying today costing us rights in the future, I don't have a crystal ball. I think I've expressed my feelings on the subject of denying ones self their legal rights for fear of future reperccussions. I believe in exercising my legal rights as long as it suits my practical purposes.

I believe I misunderstood your previous posts Wildhawker. I think that now I understand. You are afraid that people who exercise their legal right to OC might cost you the right to CC in the future. Basically, you want OTHERS to deny themselves THIER right so that YOU might have an easier time gaining the right that YOU desire. Sounds pretty selfish to me.

The ability to OC is currently a legal right for many of us. I'ts a method of carry we prefer. If you want additional rights you should work for them, fight for them. I hope you are successful as I share and support the cause. But you shouldn't expect others to deny themselves their legal rights to suit you.

Please don't mistake any further response from me on this topic as anything other than a loss of interest. Arguing on the internet is worthless and I hate doing this much typing. Peace to all

Dr. Peter Venkman
07-29-2009, 1:40 AM
I don't understand the "educating the public" bit about UOC. I'd treat any random person in public trying to sit down and talk to me for whatever reason as I would the people in the kiosks in the middle of the aisles at the local mall. That means a big "NOT INTERESTED". You think the general public will allow for people with guns to do just the same? I'd love to see UOC attract more curious onlookers than it does deter them.

Jonathan Doe
07-29-2009, 5:57 AM
I don't see the point of carrying an unloaded gun, exposed. Period.

jazman
07-29-2009, 10:23 AM
I don't see the point of carrying an unloaded gun, exposed. Period.

Me neither, just seems silly. Although, if one wanted or needed a gun it would be an easy place to get one, and no 10 day wait.

Futurecollector
07-29-2009, 1:48 PM
I don't see the point of carrying an unloaded gun, exposed. Period.

+1.

Rob360
07-29-2009, 1:53 PM
+1.



+2

..

locosway
07-29-2009, 3:58 PM
I'm curios now. What isn't there to get about carrying a gun?

What, in your mind, is the difference between LOC, and UOC?

coolusername2007
07-29-2009, 4:02 PM
locosway, hope you had a good shoot yesterday with your Aunt. Any updates for us on her location for a meetup?

locosway
07-29-2009, 4:06 PM
I'm going to hold off with UOC until there is some clear direction on the forums. There's obviously two distinct groups going in two different directions. I want to see what each side has for arguments. Currently I'm with the UOC because activism makes sense. We have people lobbying and being active against guns openly, but we aren't allowed to counter that for unknown FUD reasons that are even stemming from these very forums.

coolusername2007
07-29-2009, 4:11 PM
What Wildhawker and others have asked repeatedly is if UOCers would be willing to stop UOCing if that meant a guarantee of greater protection for 2nd Amendment rights for their children, not for him [Wildhawker]. Answer that question now, please.

Are you willing, if the potential reward was the future guaranteed protection under the 2nd Amendment of concealed and (loaded) open carry for your children, to stop UOCing?

First question, yes. BUT, there are NO guarantees! That's the point.
Second question, no. Not for a POTENTIAL reward.

Don't play politics with politicians, because you're sure to lose.

coolusername2007
07-29-2009, 4:16 PM
I'm going to hold off with UOC until there is some clear direction on the forums. There's obviously two distinct groups going in two different directions. I want to see what each side has for arguments. Currently I'm with the UOC because activism makes sense. We have people lobbying and being active against guns openly, but we aren't allowed to counter that for unknown FUD reasons that are even stemming from these very forums.

That's fine. I respect your decision. If you don't already, check out the opencarry.org forum. Several UOC events are being planned throughout the southland. You can always attend while not carrying and be a witness.

locosway
07-29-2009, 4:47 PM
That's fine. I respect your decision. If you don't already, check out the opencarry.org forum. Several UOC events are being planned throughout the southland. You can always attend while not carrying and be a witness.

I'm fairly neutral either way right now. In the end I'd like to LOC with the option of CC when needed. Right now I can see both sides, but I'm more in line with the UOC.

meloki03
07-30-2009, 10:16 AM
Just remember to have $40,000.00 (yes, $40K!) minimum, just in case you get busted for any reason. Your expenses will be on you, as Cal Guns has stated they can not and will not monetarily support any open carry cases. If you don't have that kind of money, what in the world will you do if you happen to get arrested? Theseus has been fighting his case for 8 or 9 months, and remember, he knew what he was doing and still got stung on a b.s. charge. Plus if he loses his case, he may also lose all of his guns for at least 10 years. Read the many UOC threads in the second amendment section; you all may want to re-think this. Could be expensive yogurt.
:King: :82::party::57:

So, your oppositionís current weapon of choice is inflation?

BamBam-31
07-30-2009, 1:04 PM
As per the advice of Gene, please hold off on UOC: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=207777

All,

I haven't spoken to anyone so this is no one's policy or thought but mine. However, now that there is no Second Amendment right in California until Nordyke is reissued or the Supreme Court issues an opinion in one of the Chicago Cases, we should not be UOCing at all.

I'd prefer to not fully explain why as it's a bit late, but the basic issues is that there now is not a fundamental right to keep and bear arms. As such, the ability to use the Federal courts to protect UOC'ers is diminished until either a new Nordyke opinion or June of 2010.

I know there are other reasons that some have asked to hold off, but this is a major issue and I really hope that folks will understand why I say this. I'm not trying to start a flame thread here. Importantly, the worst likely case is that UOCers should wait for the Supremes in June of 2010.

-Gene


Thanks.

n2k
07-31-2009, 8:21 AM
Little birdie informed me that LAPD has sent out a notice warning of an Open Carry day near Parker Center during the month of August.

Any LAPD officers here get the memo?

Garand1911
07-31-2009, 12:42 PM
i think open carry in LA Area is a good idea, BUT .... do it in a SMALL CITY, one that is 1)slightly more conservative/progun, 2) has a small PD that can make all officers aware of the rally, 3) easier to make the whole city aware of the rally, 4) we want Positive media attention not freaked out tourists/libs, 5) less of a gang problem / association

Im thinking el segundo, culver city, torrance, beach cities. Each weekend could be a different small city.

smle-man
07-31-2009, 3:02 PM
Good luck, I will read about it in the LA Times when it is all over. By the time the PD and the media are done with you they will have caught a combination of John Dillinger and Tim McVey unless you are shot and killed first.

Uxi
08-01-2009, 8:09 AM
Definitely like the idea.

AMERICAN
08-06-2009, 7:51 PM
im in goodtimes4@hotmail.com just bought a new paddle set holster and wow it really sits well best for open carry and these people who think its pointless should research how many people have been killed by gangsters ,,the gang banger is a coward he will not mess with a armed person ,,and they dont know my weapon is unloaded or if the chamber is clean,,,lets do this already with camaras and all it is legal no question