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View Full Version : A *little* 922r clarification


thedrickel
07-20-2009, 10:49 PM
This was posted on another board I frequent, it clears up a few common issues regarding 922r compliance. At the very least, it acknowledges that possession of a non-922r compliant firearm is not against the law.

http://www.novarata.net/922replyp1.jpg

http://www.novarata.net/922replyp2.jpg

69Mach1
07-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Great find. Saved for posterity.

technique
07-20-2009, 11:18 PM
good find...would someone mind summing it up in layman's terms?

Does this mean that starting with a 922(r) compliant gun that, one can say replace one of the 922(r) compliant parts with a factory say Yugo part should that 922(r) part fail?

NeoWeird
07-20-2009, 11:24 PM
What I've always been under the impression of is that posession of a non-922.r compliant rifle is not a crime - it's the manufacture of said weapon that is the crime.

So if Century Arms had a lapse in judgment and thought a cleaning rod was a US made part and sold a thousand converted WASRs that were 1 foreign part too many, then Century Arms would be liable for the thousand fines/charges - not the thousand individual owners that own said firearms.

Now if Century sells a compliant WASR and the new owner decides he wants to change out that junky US made slant brake for a Bulgarian AK-74 type and the firearm is now 1 foreign part too many, then the new owner has RE-assembled the weapon into a non-922.r compliant weapon and the new owner is responsible for the fine/charge.

It's kind of like if a company installs faulty equipment in your building and someone gets hurt - the injured person can sue you, but you can sue the installation company for installing sub-standard parts or inproper installation. Now if you go take a hacksaw to structual supports then the blame all falls on you.

Rascal
07-22-2009, 5:16 PM
What I've always been under the impression of is that posession of a non-922.r compliant rifle is not a crime - it's the manufacture of said weapon that is the crime.
This is correct

So if Century Arms had a lapse in judgment and thought a cleaning rod was a US made part and sold a thousand converted WASRs that were 1 foreign part too many, then Century Arms would be liable for the thousand fines/charges - not the thousand individual owners that own said firearms.

Well the cleaning rod is NOT on the list of U.S.A. made parts needed, but yes if the weapon had 11 foreign made parts from the list, then Century Arms would be on the hot spot for manufacturing a non-U.S.A. made weapon that would be subject to 922r and fail to be in compliance because it had a non-sporting pistol grip, or maybe a folding stock, or flash hider.


Now if Century sells a compliant WASR and the new owner decides he wants to change out that junky US made slant brake for a Bulgarian AK-74 type and the firearm is now 1 foreign part too many, then the new owner has RE-assembled the weapon into a non-922.r compliant weapon and the new owner is responsible for the fine/charge.
This is also correct, because the owner now manufactured a foreign made weapon that has non-sporting features and now is non-compliant with 922r.

It's kind of like if a company installs faulty equipment in your building and someone gets hurt - the injured person can sue you, but you can sue the installation company for installing sub-standard parts or improper installation. Now if you go take a hacksaw to structural supports then the blame all falls on you.

If your weapon has C&R status, it does not need to comply with 922r. This is why you can have "non-sporting" features on a C&R weapon.

If you change the original configuration of a C&R weapon, it looses its C&R status and THEN becomes a normal foreign made weapon and is therefore subject to 922r, which means that you cannot have certain "non-sporting" features to be in compliance with 922r. Take off the pistol grip, flash hider, bayonet lug and a few other "non-sporting" things, I can't remember what they are at the moment, and you are ok.

If you build a weapon from a parts kit of foreign make and you use U.S.A. made parts, AND you have 10 or less foreign made parts from the list that the Feds printed out, then your weapon is NOT considered a foreign made weapon, but a U.S.A. made weapon and is therefore NOT SUBJECT to 922r regulations, because 922r ONLY pertains to FOREIGN MADE WEAPONS.

grammaton76
07-22-2009, 5:26 PM
This is very good. I presume you won't mind if I host a copy of this image at TGW's 922(r) reference page?

thedrickel
07-22-2009, 11:16 PM
This is very good. I presume you won't mind if I host a copy of this image at TGW's 922(r) reference page?

Of course I don't mind at all, it doesn't belong to me ;). It belongs to teh interwebz now.

truthseeker
07-22-2009, 11:47 PM
If your weapon has C&R status, it does not need to comply with 922r. This is why you can have "non-sporting" features on a C&R weapon.

If you change the original configuration of a C&R weapon, it looses its C&R status and THEN becomes a normal foreign made weapon and is therefore subject to 922r, which means that you cannot have certain "non-sporting" features to be in compliance with 922r. Take off the pistol grip, flash hider, bayonet lug and a few other "non-sporting" things, I can't remember what they are at the moment, and you are ok.

If you build a weapon from a parts kit of foreign make and you use U.S.A. made parts, AND you have 10 or less foreign made parts from the list that the Feds printed out, then your weapon is NOT considered a foreign made weapon, but a U.S.A. made weapon and is therefore NOT SUBJECT to 922r regulations, because 922r ONLY pertains to FOREIGN MADE WEAPONS.

So, what if you buy a semi auto rifle that has all original parts from bulgaria, can you shoot it without fear of being non-compliant with 922r since you were not the original manufacturer?

69Mach1
07-23-2009, 12:08 AM
So, what if you buy a semi auto rifle that has all original parts from bulgaria, can you shoot it without fear of being non-compliant with 922r since you were not the original manufacturer?

It's still NON-COMPLIANT. You just won't be charged (or maybe you will be). Even so, I see a confiscation in your future. ;)

925D and 922r are ridiculous laws once the firearm reaches the U.S. To my knowledge, no individual has ever been charged.

thedrickel
07-23-2009, 12:42 AM
Legally you can possess it, but ATF might confiscate it as evidence against whoever assembled or imported it.

This is how I read the letter - I am not a lawyer, I only play one on CGN when Oak is banned ;) . . .

You cannot be charged w/ possession of a 922r-non-compliant firearm if you did not assemble it.

You cannot remove parts (I assume that "parts" means "parts on the list of 20 possible evil foreign parts") that break and replace them w/o rectifying the 922r situation if it is non-compliant. IMO if you remove any of the 20 parts and replace them or ADD one of the 20 parts, you are assembling a non-compliant firearm:

The removal and reinstalling of parts for cleaning and routine maintenance would not constitute assembly for the purpose of 922r, as long as none of the original parts are substituted with replacement or additional parts.

They have to definitively prove the origin of the parts. If they are willing to go to that length to F you, you are F'd.

If you buy a non-compliant firearm, you will need to add the requisite US parts if one of the evil 20 breaks or you want to add one (muzzle device?). The feds may confiscate it as evidence against the assembler or importer.

truthseeker
07-23-2009, 6:43 AM
So, what if the rifle was imported before the 922r compliance requirement became law?

How do I or "they" prove the rifle was imported AFTER 922r became law?

Ding126
07-23-2009, 6:55 AM
Can anyone show where someone has been arrested or prosecuted for 922R issues? I think the answer is no.
922r went into effect Nov 1990. any weapons manufactured / imported prior to the date makes it uneffected. Weapons manufactured in the USA or imported into the USA must comply. I read this regulation as it pertains to the manufacturers..not the average gun buyer..I may be wrong..but my Sprinfield SAR8 no longer has a thumb hole stock and is capable of attaching a bayonet ( replaced with HK parts )..I've had this rifle for over 10 yrs..no one has ever questioned it..I would say 99.9% of LE are not up to date on 922r.

truthseeker
07-23-2009, 7:10 AM
So, what if the rifle was imported before the 922r compliance requirement became law?

How do I or "they" prove the rifle was imported AFTER 922r became law?

The reason I ask this is because I bought a Arsenal SA93 semi auto rifle and since I bought it second hand from a Private Party I have NO idea when it was imported.

It has been sitting in the safe without a pistol grip attached to it since I bought it (~6 months ago), I haven't even shot it yet!

Socom16Fan
07-23-2009, 8:04 AM
So in the case of a Magazine fed weapon such as a Saiga 12 purchased as a factory built and imported 922r compliant firearm, the simple act of changing from the imported (approved) 5 round magazine to a 10 round (US made) magazine could put the end user in the position of legal liability for assembling an illegal firearm right? I assume at this point possession is illegal as well.

On this weapon you can of course make this change legally by adding an additional US made compliance part (such as a US made gas piston) in addition to the 3magazine parts to be compliant with 922r rules.

Rascal
07-23-2009, 4:36 PM
So, what if you buy a semi auto rifle that has all original parts from Bulgaria, can you shoot it without fear of being non-compliant with 922r since you were not the original manufacturer?

Does this semi-auto rifle have any "non-sporting" features on it?
This is the list that BATFE uses to determine if a foreign made rifle is importable or not:
1. Ability to accept a large capacity magazine

2. Folding/telescoping stocks

3. Separate pistol grips

4. Ability to accept a bayonet (bayonet mount)

5. Flash suppressors

6. Bipods

7. Grenade launchers

8. Night sights

The 1989 Military Style Semiautomatic Rifle Ban uses the above criteria, and in 1990 by Congress passed new regulations. Title 18 USC 922(r) made it illegal to build any firearm prohibited from importation as “non-sporting” under Title 18 USC 925(d)(3). Note that only assembly is illegal—possession, transfer, etc, of such a firearm are not covered.

1. If your Bulgarian rifle has any of the above listed, it is not legal, but you won't get arrested, because 922r only deals with manufacture and not possession.

2. If your Bulgarian has C&R status, then you can have the rifle configured as it was originally intended and 922r does not apply.

Bowser
07-23-2009, 4:49 PM
Are registered assault weapons exempt from 922r? Like is someone had a mak90 and wanted to put a normal stock on it as opposed to keeping the thumbhole, does that mean they have to replace the compliance parts into the gun?

Note: I don't have an RAW's or AW's themselves, I'm just wondering.

Rascal
07-23-2009, 4:57 PM
So in the case of a Magazine fed weapon such as a Saiga 12 purchased as a factory built and imported 922r compliant firearm, the simple act of changing from the imported (approved) 5 round magazine to a 10 round (US made) magazine could put the end user in the position of legal liability for assembling an illegal firearm right? I assume at this point possession is illegal as well. NO, Just changing from a 5 round to a 10 round magazine will not change the status of the rifle, as 10 round magazines are not considered High capacity military type magazines by the BATFE.

On this weapon you can of course make this change legally by adding an additional US made compliance part (such as a US made gas piston) in addition to the 3magazine parts to be compliant with 922r rules.

[b] Once again, adding U.S.A. made parts IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE with BUT
to make your rifle NOT SUBJECT TO 922r. There is a difference.
You make your foreign made rifle compliant by taking off the "non-sporting" features.
U.S.A. made rifles ARE NOT SUBJECT TO 922r, that is why you can have:

1. Ability to accept a large capacity magazine

2. Folding/telescoping stocks

3. Separate pistol grips

4. Ability to accept a bayonet (bayonet mount)

5. Flash suppressors

6. Bipods

7. Grenade launchers

8. Night sights

Hope this helps.

Rascal
07-23-2009, 5:14 PM
Are registered assault weapons exempt from 922r? Like is someone had a mak90 and wanted to put a normal stock on it as opposed to keeping the thumbhole, does that mean they have to replace the compliance parts into the gun?

Note: I don't have an RAW's or AW's themselves, I'm just wondering.

No, California Assault Weapons are not exempt from 922r.
By putting a pistol grip on his mak90, he just manufactured a foreign made rifle that is not in compliance with 922r. Now California doesn't care, because a RAW is a RAW, but the Feds could hassle you. If your RAW had 10 or less foreign made parts, then it would not be subject to 922r, and the Feds would have nothing to say.

Rascal
07-23-2009, 5:46 PM
So, what if the rifle was imported before the 922r compliance requirement became law?
Weapons imported into or manufactured before the 1990 ruling are grandfathered in.

How do I or "they" prove the rifle was imported AFTER 922r became law?
Well many manufactures changed the names of their weapons, for example
Springfield Armory previous to the ban sold SAR 48 rifles in the US, the rifles were actually made in Brazil. After the ban They change the name to Sar 4800 and put thumbhole stocks on them. All SAR 4800's are post ban weapons.
They can trace the serial number, or check to see who the importer is. There are a number of ways to find out when it can into the country. Has anyone ever been convicted for 922r violation? NO, but that doesn't mean this give you the ok to do what you like. We are law abiding citizens, that is why we either comply with 922r, buy taking all the "non-sporting" features off our foreign made weapons, or we make then into U.S.A. made weapons and then they are no longer subject to 922r regulations.

sen24
07-23-2009, 7:49 PM
is there constructive possession for 922r? like if you have an imported mag laying next to a rifle only compliant with US made mags?

Rascal
07-23-2009, 8:12 PM
is there constructive possession for 922r? like if you have an imported mag laying next to a rifle only compliant with US made mags?

No.