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bsim
07-20-2009, 1:56 PM
I've seen these topics covered, but not as one situation. Here's the scenario:

1) A (otherwise non-prohibited) person travels out of state to visit family.
2) A direct family member offers a firearm for sale to party 1.
3) As party 1 is not sure he would want the firearm, he would like to put a few rounds through it before purchase.
4) There is no time available out-of-state to sample said firearm.

So, questions are:
1) As 30 day loan provisions are allowed, can Party 1 return into CA with said firearm?
2) If said firearm is determind to be unwanted, can it just be returned via UPS to the loaner?
3) If said firearm IS wanted, and item 1 is possible, the firearm is now in CA, and needs an FFL to handle the purchase. Can the firearm just be carried into the FFL with the sellers ID to start the dros?

So I guess the big ticket item is whether interstate loans are allowed, and how a proper transfer would occur if so.

Thanks...

ke6guj
07-20-2009, 2:02 PM
federal law allows for a person to loan a firearm to a non-resident for "sporting purposes". I believe that that only includes actual hunting, not take it home and test it out.


Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

Big Jake
07-20-2009, 2:03 PM
You would have to FFL. The question is if the firearm is legal in California? Many firearms that are legal in one state are not legal in Kali! You can ship it back via UPS but will have to declare it to UPS and they will have to ship it as hazardous material and will charge you a lot of money for it!

Best bet is to try weapon out before you buy it to makre sure you like it and avoid the hassle of returning it if you decide against buying it!

bsim
07-20-2009, 3:14 PM
Doesn't 'the list' only apply to purchases? Maybe this analogy will help...

Bob travels out of state, and shoots a 3 gun competion, borrowing dad's STI pistol.

Bob borrows the (non-rostered) STI, packs it in luggage, notifies airline, and returns to CA.

Bob shoots in a CA 3 gun competition using the borrowed STI (within the 30 day window).

Bob calls dad raving about the gun, and dad offers to give it to him (roster doesn't apply to intrafamilial xfers).

STI now needs to go through CA FFL (dros) to facilitate xfer. How should this proceed?

(for the record, Bob is not me, I do not shoot 3 gun, and dad (though out of state) does not own an STI)

ke6guj
07-20-2009, 3:24 PM
It isn't the Roster that you have to deal with, it is federal law that regulates transfers between residents of different states.

Theses are the federal laws that apply in this situation. Sec. 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive
in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other
business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm
purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State:
Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of
residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such
firearm in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or
shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the
transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at
the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of
Sec. 478.96(c) and
(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm
obtained in conformity with the provisions of Sec. Sec. 478.30 and
478.97.

Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
478.29 says that you can't import into your state any firearm that you get from a non-licensee of another state.

478.30 says that a non-licensee cannot sell transfer (sell, give, lend, etc) a firearm to a non-licensee of another state.

There is an exemption to 478.30 to loan a fiream for "sporting purposes", but ATF has pretty much said that "sporting purposes" only includes hunting and some shooting sports. Plinking, test firings, and other action-type competions are not "sporting purposes". If your use was considered a "sporting purpose" then you would be exempt from 478.30 and 478.29.

30-day loan stuff is CA-law, not federal, so it doesn't help you with federal law.

Librarian
07-20-2009, 4:57 PM
ke6guj is quoting the regs (CFR (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/)) that implement 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5). See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

In short, in the situation originally proposed, it would be illegal for the CA resident to take possession out of state and bring it back to CA.

bsim
07-20-2009, 11:37 PM
Thanks guys, and Librarian, that link is what I'm quoting (also from post #2):(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,'
sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
(other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a
corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that
this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made
to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by
intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted
to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary
use for lawful sporting purposes;Since there's no true definition of "sporting", I think it's kinda vague. So, reasonably, one would think one could bring a borrowed firearm (NOT purchased or transferred) in from out of state, even if the "accepted" definition of sporting (hunting) were used.

So now this borrowed firearm is in state, but still owned by an out-of-state resident. At some point later, but still within the CA defined 30 day window of loan, an agreement to transfer the firearm is initiated. Would the firearm need to return to the loaner back out of state, then re-shipped into state to an FFL for DROS? Or could it go straight straight to an FFL?

Librarian
07-21-2009, 12:00 AM
Thanks guys, and Librarian, that link is what I'm quoting (also from post #2):Since there's no true definition of "sporting", I think it's kinda vague. So, reasonably, one would think one could bring a borrowed firearm (NOT purchased or transferred) in from out of state, even if the "accepted" definition of sporting (hunting) were used.

So now this borrowed firearm is in state, but still owned by an out-of-state resident. At some point later, but still within the CA defined 30 day window of loan, an agreement to transfer the firearm is initiated. Would the firearm need to return to the loaner back out of state, then re-shipped into state to an FFL for DROS? Or could it go straight straight to an FFL?

I wrote the page you're quoting from.

I think (a)(5)(B) works this way: you, a California resident, go visit your uncle in Idaho. Your uncle can lend you a rifle to hunt with while you're in Idaho - but you can't legally take that same rifle from ID to CA because of (a)(3).

Similarly, your Idaho uncle can bring a couple of hunting rifles to CA, and you can borrow one of his rifles to hunt in CA - just fine under (a)(5)(B). The difference is that in the second case, the actual owner of the firearms moves them from state of residence of owner to a different state.

In the second instance, the Idaho person could go to the CA FFL and transfer one of those guns to you, with the usual FFL stuff - fees, 10-day wait, etc.

But (a)(3) is quite clear - an unlicensed person may not acquire and then transport a firearm from outside his state of residence back into his state of residence, so your last situation - "this borrowed firearm is in state, but still owned by an out-of-state resident." - should not occur.

There is an (a)(3) exception for inheritance, but that is not in the original question, and a (b)(3) exception for dealers to sell (or handle the transfer of) long guns over 50 years old.

GCA of 1968 was such a good idea!

ETA: This stuff has been Federal law for forty years, and almost no one knows about it aside from BATF and FFLs, and arguably a big part of those folks get it wrong when they talk about it.

It doesn't make sense, you see.

What you want to do is entirely unlikely to harm anyone; one can't reason to mala prohibitum laws.

ke6guj
07-21-2009, 12:05 AM
yes, it would appear per the CFR that if you were temporarily using the firearm for "lawful sporting purposes", you would be able to temporarily import the firearm.

However, ATF decides what "sporting purposes" means, and they keep that definition vague so for reasons that benefit them, not us. Sporting purposes is up to them to decide, and they have decided that it basically only applies to traditional firearms like a Remington 700 used for hunting and perhaps some marksmanship competitions. An AR-15 is not considered a sporting firearm, even though it can be used in exactly the same manner as that R700.

With that vagueness, I would not attempt to use the exemptions mentioned above to, in your words, import a firearm for purposes of "test driving" the firearm before you purchase it. I doubt ATF would consider "test driving" to be a "sporting purpose". And even if they did, I don't see that exemption allowing for you to decide to purchase a "loaned for sporting purposes" firearm and deliver it directly to an in-state FFL. Think about this, how would the FFL process it? A PPT? A regular transfer? Who would he log it in from? It belongs to an out-of-state resident, does he log it in as if that person sent it, even though he didn't? Or does he log it in from you, DROS it, and give it back to you in 10-days?

I think the safe thing to do, if you felt that "test driving" fell under "sporting purposes" would be to return it to the owner after you were done with the "sporting purposes". Then, the owner could decide to sent it to your FFL for you to do a proper transfer.

ke6guj
07-21-2009, 12:13 AM
I think (a)(5)(B) works this way: you, a California resident, go visit your uncle in Idaho. Your uncle can lend you a rifle to hunt with while you're in Idaho - but you can't legally take that same rifle from ID to CA because of (a)(3).

<snip>

But (a)(3) is quite clear - an unlicensed person may not acquire and then transport a firearm from outside his state of residence back into his state of residence, so your last situation - "this borrowed firearm is in state, but still owned by an out-of-state resident." - should not occur.

There is an (a)(3) exception for inheritance, but that is not in the original question, and a (b)(3) exception for dealers to sell (or handle the transfer of) long guns over 50 years old.
Actually the way I read it is that a person could legally take that rifle from ID to CA while hunting per the 478.29(c) exemption, which says transportation of the firearm back to your home state is legal if it complys with 478.30. And 478.30 says that loaning to a person for hunting is OK.

But that narrow exemption does not cover the OP's situation.

Librarian
07-21-2009, 12:31 AM
Actually the way I read it is that a person could legally take that rifle from ID to CA while hunting per the 478.29(c) exemption, which says transportation of the firearm back to your home state is legal if it complys with 478.30. And 478.30 says that loaning to a person for hunting is OK.

But that narrow exemption does not cover the OP's situation.

That might work that way: 27 CFR 478 (http://frwebgate3.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/TEXTgate.cgi?WAISdocID=1618764837+18+1+0&WAISaction=retrieve)Sec. 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive
in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other
business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm
purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State:
Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of
residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such
firearm in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or
shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the
transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at
the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of
Sec. 478.96(c) and
(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm
obtained in conformity with the provisions of Sec. Sec. 478.30 and
478.97.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10493, Mar. 31, 1988]


Sec. 478.29a Acquisition of firearms by nonresidents.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, who does not reside in any State
shall receive any firearms unless such receipt is for lawful sporting
purposes.

[T.D. ATF-363, 60 FR 17451, Apr. 6, 1995]


Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
It's clear that the 478.29(c) exception applies to the 478.30(a) inheritance part, and since the reg doesn't exclude the (b) sporting purpose part, I guess that IS included.

That's definitely not the way I read 922(a)(3), but if BATF wants to be more lenient than I expect, it's OK with me!

ke6guj
07-21-2009, 12:36 AM
That might work that way:

It's clear that the 478.29(c) exception applies to the 478.30(a) inheritance part, and since the reg doesn't exclude the (b) sporting purpose part, I guess that IS included.

That's definitely not the way I read 922(a)(3), but if BATF wants to be more lenient than I expect, it's OK with me!exactly, if they don't exclude the sporting purposes part from the exemption, it should be vaild. But it still doesn't help the OP :D

bsim
07-21-2009, 7:48 AM
Thanks fellas - was just curious if it could be done...:)

Knappy
09-13-2009, 3:42 PM
Wow!! This entire thread hurts my head just reading it. You need to be a damn lawyer to understand this crap!! I hate that.