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MAC USMC
07-20-2009, 11:30 AM
How many of you California citizen/gun owners would assist a police officer trying to make an arrest or one being jumped by gang-bangers!

This is common practice in many rural locales where most folks have rifle racks in their trucks and intercede to help a police officer in difficulty. Not to imply a weapon is needed in each incident, but it is there for a reason. I would think most police officers support the 2nd Amendment as well as concealed carry with a CCW.

Many cops have had citizens jump in and help them subdue a bad-guy even some who were armed. I had citizens help me on several occasions back a few years. Times and attitudes change over time -- so what would you do?

tyrist
07-20-2009, 11:41 AM
I had a citizen help be wrestle down a drug crazed suspect. I was fighting with the guy on the ground and he was across the street. He came over and pinned the guy allowing me to get into a cuffing position. I was glad he helped since it probably saved me from some injuries.

PatriotnMore
07-20-2009, 11:45 AM
I would definitely jump in and help an LEO if I saw he needed assistance, no questions.

SCMA-1
07-20-2009, 11:45 AM
Absolutely. And I'd use any and everything at my disposal as a weapon (truck, 6 cell maglite, 7 lb fire extinguisher, 5" folder I carry, etc.) to assist them.;) But then I've been accused of going around looking for confrontation.:o

SCMA-1

Crusader
07-20-2009, 11:48 AM
I have before, and I'd do it again without hesitation. I have a great deal of respect for (most) police officers, and if/when I see they need help, I'm 100% willing.

There was a show the other day on Spike that had a video clip of a cop wrestling with a suspect. The cop was very nearly getting his *** kicked, and almost had his gun taken out of its holster by the attacker. It was a very scary video to watch, and was even more disturbing by the fact that probably a dozen people walked right past the fight without offering assistance. During an interview with the cop afterwards, he said he couldn't blame the people for not jumping in. I sure did though.

Jicko
07-20-2009, 11:52 AM
I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....

PatriotnMore
07-20-2009, 12:01 PM
During an interview with the cop afterwards, he said he couldn't blame the people for not jumping in. I sure did though.

I saw another video where just the opposite happened. The LEO was not doing well and his gun was in question, a bystander came across the street, the cop yelled for help, and the two subdued the guy. The best thing the cop did when it got to that point was to ask for help.

Oregonish
07-20-2009, 12:12 PM
I'd help, if needed.

RolinThundr
07-20-2009, 12:20 PM
I'd jump right in- we expect them to be there for us, we should be there for them.

sugi942
07-20-2009, 12:29 PM
I would even though I'm getting older... hahaha!

Makes me wonder about the N. Hollywood bank robbery scenario. Guys are shooting the place up, LEOs are going down, non-combatants are going down, you have your favorite rifle, it's a clear shot from your front yard fenceline behind cover... do you take the shot? Is it legal?

sorensen440
07-20-2009, 12:30 PM
I would help if they needed it (same goes for any non leo's that need help)

command_liner
07-20-2009, 12:44 PM
My brother-in-law's friend spotted a guy beating on a Mass State Trooper.
The Trooper was a woman and was out of her league. So the friend drives
across the median at high speed, across the road, jumps out and goes at
it with the BG. He gets a few bumps and cuts, but saves the day.

But in this case corruption works the right way. He will never get a speeding ticket on a highway in Mass.
He has tried a few times, but no Trooper will sign a ticket.

frigginchi
07-20-2009, 12:53 PM
Be sure to identify yourself before you jump in:)

gn3hz3ku1*
07-20-2009, 1:16 PM
I would even though I'm getting older... hahaha!

Makes me wonder about the N. Hollywood bank robbery scenario. Guys are shooting the place up, LEOs are going down, non-combatants are going down, you have your favorite rifle, it's a clear shot from your front yard fenceline behind cover... do you take the shot? Is it legal?

no DA would press charges and no jury would convict you...
so yes double tap just in case you miss

CAL.BAR
07-20-2009, 1:39 PM
I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....

Exactly - how does that work? Back up comes around the corner to see you wrestling with the officer and another civilian. So they start beating/ tazing/shooting everything not in a uniform right?

Question for the offiers - what do you do in a situation like that where you get a call officer down or officer in need of backup and you turn the corner and see him wrestling with two civi's. Answer honestly now! What would you do?

Mr. Beretta
07-20-2009, 1:39 PM
I would in a New York second !

MiguelS
07-20-2009, 1:45 PM
if it was a wrestling match yes, if the suspect is displaying a weapon no.

Cpl. Haas
07-20-2009, 1:46 PM
Question for the offiers - what do you do in a situation like that where you get a call officer down or officer in need of backup and you turn the corner and see him wrestling with two civi's. Answer honestly now! What would you do?

I had that happen once when I showed up at an 11-99 assist... when you've got a uniformed officer, and a guy in civilian clothes essentially side-by-side with a crackhead looking dude under them squirming and yelling, it's not too hard to figure out who's good and who's bad. I assumed he was off-duty until it was over and I learned otherwise.

Henry47
07-20-2009, 1:51 PM
i wouldn't be surprised if the suspect later files a civil suit against you, especially in california

Vtec44
07-20-2009, 1:54 PM
i wouldn't be surprised if the suspect later files a civil suit against you, especially in california

I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....

Those are the 2 main factors that I generally don't get involved unless it's a life and death situation. It's a sad attitude, I know.

glockman19
07-20-2009, 1:56 PM
I would do exactly as expected by LE and be a good wittness.:) I would dial 911 on my cell phone and wait for help to arrive.:rolleyes:;):p

tmuller
07-20-2009, 2:16 PM
we expect them to be there for us,

Actually....

I would do exactly as expected by LE and be a good wittness. I would dial 911 on my cell phone and wait for help to arrive.

This!

bootcamp
07-20-2009, 2:18 PM
LEO are people too. It's not any different than watching a victim of a crime get his/her butt kicked. If you watch and stand there, you are just another bad guy yourself. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If you are capable, it's the right thing to do.

tyrist
07-20-2009, 2:31 PM
I would even though I'm getting older... hahaha!

Makes me wonder about the N. Hollywood bank robbery scenario. Guys are shooting the place up, LEOs are going down, non-combatants are going down, you have your favorite rifle, it's a clear shot from your front yard fenceline behind cover... do you take the shot? Is it legal?

You are in an immediate defense of life situation...fire away.

tyrist
07-20-2009, 2:32 PM
I watch CHP do 90+ without their lights.

I have a hard time respecting law enforcement officers who don't actually follow the laws themselves.

Maybe they're only like that in Orange County, but I could be wrong.

How else are they suppose to catch people speeding on the freeways?

harmoniums
07-20-2009, 2:58 PM
I helped a guy out once that was being beat very badly by a cop.
This was back in Ireland, and the cop was drunk

audihenry
07-20-2009, 3:14 PM
No need to get involved and I don't always automatically assume that the LEO is always in the right. I don't want that on my conscience. Let him call backup.

1911su16b870
07-20-2009, 5:19 PM
I will allways stop and assist a LEO in need.

packnrat
07-20-2009, 5:23 PM
That civil suit is why I would stop and think about it.
Now if the leo's union would get a protection law passed to prevent such. I would be all over the bad guy.

.

strangerdude
07-20-2009, 5:24 PM
I have assisted PD many times, and I would again.

Vacaville
07-20-2009, 5:25 PM
If the guy looks like he is in danger and there is an opening where I could possibly assist, sure.

JDoe
07-20-2009, 5:30 PM
How many of you California citizen/gun owners would assist a police officer trying to make an arrest or one being jumped by gang-bangers!

I have assisted a LEO who was struggling trying to gain control of someone they just arrested. No big deal at the time though later I did feel very bad for the person that was apprehended as they were clearly as poor as dirt and about as smart as a sack of hammers. Edited to add: I did ask the LEO "do you want my help?" prior to jumping in.

I would assist again in a heartbeat. It's in the DNA.

Makes me wonder about the N. Hollywood bank robbery scenario. Guys are shooting the place up, LEOs are going down, non-combatants are going down, you have your favorite rifle, it's a clear shot from your front yard fenceline behind cover... do you take the shot? Is it legal?

I would take the shot in half a heartbeat. When innocent lives are at risk there just isn't any other option. What are you going to do, turn the TV up so you can't hear people getting shot and dying?

sdyeti
07-20-2009, 5:32 PM
I would jump in every f'n time.

Apollo
07-20-2009, 6:18 PM
I'd help if I could, especially if it was a female officer.

geeknow
07-20-2009, 6:33 PM
How many of you California citizen/gun owners would assist a police officer trying to make an arrest or one being jumped by gang-bangers!

-- so what would you do?

I would follow their lead....

As their #1 priority is going home safe to their families, so is mine. why put my giblets on the line unnecessarily with no personal ability to guarantee their safety?

...since you asked....

now, if I were legally able to ccw, that would be different. but I cant. their loss....

a different, but related question might be "how can we work together, as responsibly armed citizens?"

that seems to go further towards building consensus instead of an us vs them mentality, which I am only echoing...not promoting.

either way, theirs is a thankless job that causes them to dwell amongst the worst of humanity. I applaud their desire to participate. I believe in their right to carry any defensive tool that allows them to do this super-tough job and make it home in one piece each day.

be safe all.

g

Cru Jones
07-20-2009, 7:03 PM
I'm with Sorensen. I'd help anyone in a struggle, doesn't have to be a LEO.

compsoftstation
07-20-2009, 7:11 PM
I saved a girl from getting shanked by his bf on campus.

Rascal
07-20-2009, 7:15 PM
i wouldn't be surprised if the suspect later files a civil suit against you, especially in california


It's called the "Good Samaritan Law". It prevents someone from suing you if you are trying to save someones life, and something goes wrong. If and officer is in need of help and you assist him, you are saving his life. The perp can try to sue you, but the case will be dismissed, because your lawyer will use the Good Samaritan Law to get you out of it.

HowardW56
07-20-2009, 7:18 PM
I did it, I was younger then... The cop was very appreciative, even though I broke the knuckleheads arm and caused a lot of paperwork... The down side was I spent two days in court for the arraignment... Being a witness sucks....
The cop and I became friends… and would get together for a beer from time to time…

Flying Bones
07-20-2009, 7:25 PM
One time I saved an entire police force from a herd of fire ants with nothing more than a garden hoe and a tall glass of water.

scrat
07-20-2009, 7:28 PM
Nope.

Maybe 15-20 years ago. However as you get older, have kids a family payments. You stop doing the things you did when you were 20. Only way in heck i would intervene is if it was a total emergencey situation. Otherwise its not worth any legal actions taken by anyone.

leitung
07-20-2009, 7:34 PM
I would totally jump in if I saw the officer stuggling with a suspect. I hope someone would jump in if my butt was on the line.
As an armed security guard, I wouldnt hesitate to get involved if needed, especially considering I carry almost all the same equipment that a police officer does.

prob
07-20-2009, 7:56 PM
I'd jump right in- we expect them to be there for us, we should be there for them.

They're PAID to be there for us.

truthseeker
07-20-2009, 8:04 PM
Why should we ONLY help LEO's?

If I ever saw another citizen in distress I WOULD help since TO ME that is a BIG part of what being an American\good citizen stands for!

Another example is if you saw someone get into a car accident and the car burst into flames, I would do everything I could to get that person out of the vehicle.

Khram
07-20-2009, 8:16 PM
I helped a guy out once that was being beat very badly by a cop.
This was back in Ireland, and the cop was drunk

Funniest post of the day! And I'd help, but in limited circumstances.

Ron-Solo
07-20-2009, 9:04 PM
Exactly - how does that work? Back up comes around the corner to see you wrestling with the officer and another civilian. So they start beating/ tazing/shooting everything not in a uniform right?

Question for the offiers - what do you do in a situation like that where you get a call officer down or officer in need of backup and you turn the corner and see him wrestling with two civi's. Answer honestly now! What would you do?

I've rolled on this type of situation many times and have never had a problem figuring out who the good guys were.

I've had people jump in and help many times, and I always made sure I thank them, and I work an urban area where backup is close by. Two minutes in a fight is an eternity, so any help is appreciated.

Ron-Solo
07-20-2009, 9:09 PM
i wouldn't be surprised if the suspect later files a civil suit against you, especially in california

Had that happen once and the county counsel representing me also represented him since I had asked for help he was covered because of 150 PC, which REQUIRES you to assist as reasonably appropriate when requested.

Dirtbag's attorney was really frustrated when the judge immediately dissmissed every allegation against the citizen. Dirtbag didn't get a dime.

kalibear
07-20-2009, 9:14 PM
Yes

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-20-2009, 9:29 PM
I would help the Officer. It's the right thing to do.

Josh3239
07-20-2009, 9:40 PM
Absolutely I would.

Fire in the Hole
07-20-2009, 10:02 PM
Perhaps it's just me, but I've been it a lot of knock down drag out fights over the years. I was never one to shy away from a fight. I'm probably only alive today because citizens have jumped in and helped me overcome the BG, subdue him, and cuff him up. I'm very grateful. For those of you who might have helped me out; I owe a debt of gratitude for helping me to help you. However Rekrab's post has made me glad to be retired, and has caused me to loose my appetite for this thread.

Ron-Solo
07-20-2009, 10:24 PM
[QUOTE=Ron-Solo;2801228]Had that happen once and the county counsel representing me also represented him since I had asked for help he was covered because of 150 PC, which REQUIRES you to assist as reasonably appropriate when requested.

QUOTE]

FUD.

I will challenge this statement on the basis that none but LEO's are qualified or trained to assist in the situation described by the op. Seeing as this is the basis for the claim that none but LEO's can possibly be entrusted to carry firearms, the same can be fairly stated for all aspects of your job, unfortunately...

I wish it werent so.

But, as the late great Mr Cronkite said "that's the way it is.."

Then there is the issue of legal fees...Right, wrong, or otherwise, I have no interest in racking up huge lawyer bills proving one thing or the other when the entire situation could be avoided altogether.

Maybe when I was younger and more brash (and admittedly with a lot less on the line), but not now....

Again, wish it werent so.

Maybe now is the time to start pushing for legislative change to allow this interface to happen more naturally, and with less fear of reprisal?

:)


When you call FUD make sure you know what you are talking about first. Here is the section from the California Penal Code:

150. Every able-bodied person above 18 years of age who neglects or
refuses to join the posse comitatus or power of the county, by
neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in taking or arresting any
person against whom there may be issued any process, or by neglecting
to aid and assist in retaking any person who, after being arrested
or confined, may have escaped from arrest or imprisonment, or by
neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in preventing any breach of
the peace, or the commission of any criminal offense, being thereto
lawfully required by any uniformed peace officer, or by any peace
officer described in Section 830.1, subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d),
(e), or (f) of Section 830.2, or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33,
who identifies himself or herself with a badge or identification card
issued by the officer's employing agency, or by any judge, is
punishable by a fine of not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more
than one thousand dollars ($1,000).


It's a misdemeanor. Most people don't know it is even on the books.

And don't get mad at LEOs because of the state's screwed up gun laws. Most of us don't like them either. I can't get a CCW for my wife and she's been the target of several valid threats based on my profession over the years.

retired
07-20-2009, 11:09 PM
Perhaps it's just me, but I've been it a lot of knock down drag out fights over the years. I was never one to shy away from a fight. I'm probably only alive today because citizens have jumped in and helped me overcome the BG, subdue him, and cuff him up. I'm very grateful. For those of you who might have helped me out; I owe a debt of gratitude for helping me to help you. However Rekrab's post has made me glad to be retired, and has caused me to loose my appetite for this thread.

You don't have to worry about Rekrab's posts, they have been deleted. If he continues to write in the same manner, he will be deleted from this particular forum.

ojisan
07-20-2009, 11:13 PM
Of course I would help.
So would my two sons.
And my wife.
And my dog.
And the guy who lives across the street.
And the guy who lives next door.
And so many others.
You are not alone.

retired
07-20-2009, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE=Ron-Solo;2801228]Had that happen once and the county counsel representing me also represented him since I had asked for help he was covered because of 150 PC, which REQUIRES you to assist as reasonably appropriate when requested.

QUOTE]

FUD.

I will challenge this statement on the basis that none but LEO's are qualified or trained to assist in the situation described by the op. Seeing as this is the basis for the claim that none but LEO's can possibly be entrusted to carry firearms, the same can be fairly stated for all aspects of your job, unfortunately...

Did you even bother to read 150PC before you insulted Ron-Solo by accusing him of FUD. Perhaps if you had, you would have realized he is correct.

Furthermore, did you bother to read the following by Kestryll in the sticky on the rules for this forum.

[QUOTE]Post denigrating or insulting our LEO members will be removed and the poster will no longer be able to access this forum.

By this rule, you should be gone from this forum. I will take some input from the leo you insulted (Ron-Solo) before deciding

Prowler
07-20-2009, 11:20 PM
I'd help an LEO in a second, just ask them if they needed assistance before I jumped in the game.

Fire in the Hole
07-20-2009, 11:26 PM
Nope.

Maybe 15-20 years ago. However as you get older, have kids a family payments. You stop doing the things you did when you were 20. Only way in heck i would intervene is if it was a total emergencey situation. Otherwise its not worth any legal actions taken by anyone.

So this is what's it come down to? Sheeple. I'm am old. I on the other hand believe that honor and courage do not have an expiration date. If I saw an LEO in distress and in need of assistance, I'd ram my wheel chair into them, and begin beating them with my cane if that was what was necessary. Doing the right thing is timeless.

nick
07-20-2009, 11:47 PM
How many of you California citizen/gun owners would assist a police officer trying to make an arrest or one being jumped by gang-bangers!

This is common practice in many rural locales where most folks have rifle racks in their trucks and intercede to help a police officer in difficulty. Not to imply a weapon is needed in each incident, but it is there for a reason. I would think most police officers support the 2nd Amendment as well as concealed carry with a CCW.

Many cops have had citizens jump in and help them subdue a bad-guy even some who were armed. I had citizens help me on several occasions back a few years. Times and attitudes change over time -- so what would you do?

I'd help, of course, that goes without saying. Hopefully, without resulting legal troubles, but I doubt I'll be thinking about legal troubles at the time, anyway.

CnCFunFactory
07-21-2009, 1:45 AM
I helped an LAPD officer on a ped stop that had gotten horrifically sideways for the officer. LEO jumped out of his car and begins to field interview, perp goes ballistic swinging on the officer etc. It goes to the ground very quickly. My wife and I make our way over, fast, I ask the LEO if he needs assistance. He emphatically yells, "NO, Stay back!" I did just that. Perp within about 15 seconds of that gets the upper hand and has now "mounted" the LEO and is striking him about the head and face. LEO then Yells, "HELP!" So I came in from behind and got a very good, very deep, chokehold on the perp. Got him off the LEO and LEO had him cuffed in about 25 seconds. After, when all was said and done, LEO comes over to me and thanks me and says, I crap you not, "I guess it woulda been easier if I had let ya jump in the first time." I laughed, he laughed. I asked if he wanted my ID he said no. "No point in 'hemming' up a good guy."

To answer the question... I don't go around looking for a fight however any human deserves better than being beat down in the street. So yes I would help regardless of a badge or not. I am however polite and ask before I cut in to the dance. :-)

Curtis
07-21-2009, 4:37 AM
I would absolutely help LEO. I'm a little less willing when it isn't LEO because I have been told too many stories of not knowing who was the BG or the victim helping the BG once someone steps in.

SkyStorm82
07-21-2009, 5:06 AM
I in no way believe myself to be chuck norris with a badge. If I were getting my *** kicked, I'd be happy to have someone come help me out. To those that would or have, I thank you.

Fire in the Hole
07-21-2009, 8:35 AM
Funniest post of the day! And I'd help, but in limited circumstances.

And what would those limited circumstances be?

Fire in the Hole
07-21-2009, 8:51 AM
No need to get involved and I don't always automatically assume that the LEO is always in the right. I don't want that on my conscience. Let him call backup.

So let's look at this a little further and break it down.

"No need to get involved"? Refer to 150 P.C. Without involvement from the citizenry, LE can not do its job. This is why COP's (Community Oriented Policing) was invented.

You don't want helping an LEO in distress to be on "your conscience"?
I don't even know what to say about this.

"Let him call back-up."
So the LEO is pinned down on the ground, taking blows, can't access his radio, and you would just let it play out to the end? Nice.



Several of the posts on this thread allude to the point of view that the citizenry pay LE to protect them, take an oath to do so, so there is no responsibility or duty for the citizenry to get involved. This is akin to the beliefs of many parents who feel that it is the job of teachers to educate their kids, train them to be responsible and accountabe, teach them manners, how to get along on the play ground, fair-play,etc. Many parents see no need to follow-up with helping out with homework, backing up the teacher's dicipline decisions, getting their kids to school on time, providing a nutritious meals for their developing minds etc, after all, that's what their educational tax dollars are for, right?

PatriotnMore
07-21-2009, 9:10 AM
Man, I am 48, not exactly in my prime :) still, age and responsibilities have nothing to do with it for me.

I believe in a lawful society, I believe MOST LEO's are upstanding, I want a safe environment for my wife and kids, and their wives and kids. To me, this is about doing what is right. The right thing is to help someone who needs it, be a neighbor, friend, or those who put it on the line everyday for your benefit.

There will always be soldiers and conscientious observers in every society.

This subject, and others which have to do with LEO's, are why the bridge between the us and them attitude will never be built.

Nope.

Maybe 15-20 years ago. However as you get older, have kids a family payments. You stop doing the things you did when you were 20. Only way in heck i would intervene is if it was a total emergencey situation. Otherwise its not worth any legal actions taken by anyone.

fullrearview
07-21-2009, 9:15 AM
I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....

No good deed goes unpunished!:p

Fire in the Hole
07-21-2009, 9:28 AM
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
as I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
as I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
as I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
as I was not a Jew.

Then when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

Turbinator
07-21-2009, 9:55 AM
I'd help in any way I can.

Turby

oldironpants
07-21-2009, 10:17 AM
I've called for back-up on numerous occasions. 35-45 minutes later, back-up arrived.

I've also been in that pursuit, foot bail through back yards, pastures, barbed wire, hands on for 2-3 minutes (an eternity), hearing the radio traffic as you fight asking, "where is he, I can't find him," with folks looking out their windows and you can't answer the radio to direct your "back-up" to you because your hands are rather busy.

To those that have assisted, thanks. To those that have offered to assist, thanks. To those that have stopped to make sure I was o.k., thanks. To those that have stood-by till my back-up got there, thanks.

yzernie
07-21-2009, 10:19 AM
Over the course of my career I have had citizens come to my aid. I was unbelievably grateful to them for helping me and allowing me to make it home to my family on that day.

One night not to long ago at domestic disturbance one of my deputies was getting pounded on pretty hard and a citizen came to help him. My deputy was on the ground, on his back getting and was unable to get to his radio to call for help. The citizen had a baseball bat in his hand and my deputy thought he was going to get double teamed. The next thing he knows the suspect was laying on the ground and bleeding from the side of his head. The citizen was gone before I arrived 45 seconds later. We have no idea who the guy was, could never locate him and aptly nicknamed the citizen "The Shadow".

When we battle evil on the streets we sometimes forget there are still many good people out there. It is important that we remember not everyone is our adversary. I am, and I know my deputy is too, forever grateful to "The Shadow" who saved my guy from receiving more serious injuries than he had already suffered.

To those of you who would stand there and watch an an officer (or any one else) get whipped on...wow, just wow.

8-Ball
07-21-2009, 10:47 AM
Several of the posts on this thread allude to the point of view that the citizenry pay LE to protect them, take an oath to do so, so there is no responsibility or duty for the citizenry to get involved. This is akin to the beliefs of many parents who feel that it is the job of teachers to educate their kids, train them to be responsible and accountabe, teach them manners, how to get along on the play ground, fair-play,etc. Many parents see no need to follow-up with helping out with homework, backing up the teacher's dicipline decisions, getting their kids to school on time, providing a nutritious meals for their developing minds etc, after all, that's what their educational tax dollars are for, right?

A little high and mighty when there is plenty of evidence supporting some bad apples among the troops.

I'd jump in to help in a heartbeat, no questions asked. But, I can see how some would be hesitant based simply on my own experiences with SOME, NOT MOST, LEOs, the legal system, and political sentiment of this state.

Just to keep a little perspective in the thread.

oldironpants
07-21-2009, 11:40 AM
In 2004, there were 836,787 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States.

Since we are dealing with human nature, there will always be those few that are "bad apples," and that the media portrays as representing those 836,787 (to use that number). What would it be like if I as a law enforcement officer were to take the reverse view of citizens? Therefore, every driver who drives a car is a jerk based upon my last contact with a jerk driver? Etc...

Overall if chosing to assist an officer, not bad odds of picking the right side to be on. I'd take those odds to Vegas any day of the week. ;)

PatriotnMore
07-21-2009, 11:44 AM
I think part of the problem with this statement is, there is enough attitude on both sides of that argument to go around. Many people feel it is an "us vs them" operating tempo which causes problems. If we get off on this subject, it's not going to be productive.


In 2004, there were 836,787 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States.

Since we are dealing with human nature, there will always be those few that are "bad apples," and that the media portrays as representing those 836,787 (to use that number). What would it be like if I as a law enforcement officer were to take the reverse view of citizens? Therefore, every driver who drives a car is a jerk based upon my last contact with a jerk driver? Etc...

Overall if chosing to assist an officer, not bad odds of picking the right side to be on. I'd take those odds to Vegas any day of the week.

8-Ball
07-21-2009, 11:49 AM
In 2004, there were 836,787 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States.

Since we are dealing with human nature, there will always be those few that are "bad apples," and that the media portrays as representing those 836,787 (to use that number). What would it be like if I as a law enforcement officer were to take the reverse view of citizens? Therefore, every driver who drives a car is a jerk based upon my last contact with a jerk driver? Etc...

Overall if chosing to assist an officer, not bad odds of picking the right side to be on. I'd take those odds to Vegas any day of the week. ;)

I'm glad we agree...

ALCO HK
07-21-2009, 12:09 PM
I would jump in.....I have nothing but respect for LEO's. Im the guy that thanks the cop even when Im written a ticket.

oldironpants
07-21-2009, 12:10 PM
I think part of the problem with this statement is, there is enough attitude on both sides of that argument to go around. Many people feel it is an "us vs them" operating tempo which causes problems. If we get off on this subject, it's not going to be productive.PatriotnMore, respectfully.... I believe my intent here has been misunderstood. In no way was I remotely suggesting/promoting/advocating an 'us vs them,' or a want of going down that path because for me, it does not exist. I've left other forums because of that aura. We are in fact all on the same side. My point was that in "all" of our contacts, the number of good far outweigh the bad no matter which side of the badge we're on or folks we meet at the store. No difference.

Another example would be that not all kids that ride a skateboard are bad kids, but there are those that would make assumption because of a few trouble makers. Human nature I guess. We have to make sure that we are "fair" when we come to a conclusion was the intent of my post. I wasn't picking on anyone or any perception. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. Officers have to remember too that the badge is only 3", it's the person behind it that makes or breaks it.

I had an old, gruff sergeant that told me once: "It is said in bible that Sampson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an a... "mule." Officers can kill just as many positive citizen contacts with the same instrument." I've tried to take that sage advice with me every day and pass it along to the new boots as well.

I was merely suggesting a reverse on the view to illustrate how that view can be misconstrued by looking at a few vs the many by all of us. Thus, the "winky" at the end. ;)

PatriotnMore
07-21-2009, 12:26 PM
Great post.

PatriotnMore, respectfully.... I believe my intent here has been misunderstood. In no way was I remotely suggesting/promoting/advocating an 'us vs them,' or a want of going down that path because for me, it does not exist. I've left other forums because of that aura. We are in fact all on the same side. My point was that in "all" of our contacts, the number of good far outweigh the bad no matter which side of the badge we're on or folks we meet at the store. No difference.

Another example would be that not all kids that ride a skateboard are bad kids, but there are those that would make assumption because of a few trouble makers. Human nature I guess. We have to make sure that we are "fair" when we come to a conclusion was the intent of my post. I wasn't picking on anyone or any perception. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. Officers have to remember too that the badge is only 3", it's the person behind it that makes or breaks it.

I had an old, gruff sergeant that told me once: "It is said in bible that Sampson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an a... "mule." Officers can kill just as many positive citizen contacts with the same instrument." I've tried to take that sage advice with me every day and pass it along to the new boots as well.

I was merely suggesting a reverse on the view to illustrate how that view can be misconstrued by looking at a few vs the many by all of us. Thus, the "winky" at the end. ;)

Lyte-
07-21-2009, 3:29 PM
If I saw a police officer getting his butt handed to him or in grave danger and I was able to I would step in. How ever I am a female so typically getting into a physical conflict with someone who they them selves can not handle would not normally be an option for me.

In those cases how would I legally be able to assist a police officer?

Get a bat like the "shadow" and hit the BG?

Obtain my gun and threaten the BG with it until the police officer can pull his self together?

If the later does not work shooting said BG perhaps in the leg long enough to distract him to allow the police officer to pull his self together?

If I owned pepperspray or a taser could I use that as well?

Decoligny
07-21-2009, 4:22 PM
I would even though I'm getting older... hahaha!

Makes me wonder about the N. Hollywood bank robbery scenario. Guys are shooting the place up, LEOs are going down, non-combatants are going down, you have your favorite rifle, it's a clear shot from your front yard fenceline behind cover... do you take the shot? Is it legal?

In that situation, yes, you would be stopping a violent felon in the process of attacking multiple people with the intent to kill them.

If I were in that situation, and had a reasonable chance of executing a good sniper shot, then it's one (or two, or three) shot(s), one kill. Bye Bye Bad Guy.

Ron-Solo
07-21-2009, 4:37 PM
If I saw a police officer getting his butt handed to him or in grave danger and I was able to I would step in. How ever I am a female so typically getting into a physical conflict with someone who they them selves can not handle would not normally be an option for me.

In those cases how would I legally be able to assist a police officer?

Get a bat like the "shadow" and hit the BG?

Obtain my gun and threaten the BG with it until the police officer can pull his self together?

If the later does not work shooting said BG perhaps in the leg long enough to distract him to allow the police officer to pull his self together?

If I owned pepperspray or a taser could I use that as well?

Lyte,

Never underestimate yourself because you are a female! Some of the best partners I ever worked with were females, and i've worked some pretty tough areas. My partner during the LA riots was a female, who was one of the best cops I ever worked with. Common sense for the particular incident is critical to determine what is an appropriate level of involvement.

To all of the Calguns members who are hesitant to get involved. Helping out may be as simple as a 9-1-1 call, using the car radio or just being there to make the bad guy think twice. Depending on the circumstances, everything from pepper spray, taser, baseball bat, to a gun may be warranted and totally justified.

To those who are afraid of being mistaken for a bad guy, just make yourself know to the assisting officers and comply with instructions. If you are armed, put it on the ground (DON'T drop it - that's a party foul to gun lovers) and step away. You will probably get proned out because they don't know who you are and will stabilize the situation before sorting it all out. It's all about tactics and safety - yours and ours. We want to get bad guys, not good guys.

And to all those people who have assisted me in various situations over the last 31 years, THANK YOU!

oldironpants
07-21-2009, 4:44 PM
Excellent points above by Ron-Solo.

I remember this incident and believe I read about it in the American Rifleman after this trooper was killed. If memory serves correct, the Texas DPS awarded the citizen a medal for his interdiction and only referred to him as, "the deer hunter."
Patrolman Sammy Charles Long
Texas Department of Public Safety - Texas Highway Patrol
Texas
End of Watch: Sunday, November 21, 1976

Biographical Info
Age: Not available
Tour of Duty: 18 years
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Sunday, November 21, 1976
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Shot and killed by citizen

Patrolman Sammy Long was shot and killed after making a traffic stop on a driver for a traffic violation on US 67 near Rankin, Texas.

The suspect, who was AWOL from the US Navy, opened fire with a .32 caliber handgun as Patrolman Long approached the vehicle, knocking him to the ground. The suspect then took Patrolman Long's service weapon and shot him in the back six times as he lay on the ground.

A citizen, who was an avid deer hunter returning from a hunting trip, was stopped in a rest stop 150 yards from the traffic stop and witnessed the shooting. The man immediately retrieved his hunting rifle and shot the suspect at a range of 150 yards, killing him.

Patrolman Long had served with the Texas Highway Patrol for 18 years and was stationed at McCamey. He was survived by his wife and son.
(Emphasis added)

HotRails
07-21-2009, 7:42 PM
A good LEO can count on me anytime! Of course I would use discretion and announce my intentions and make sure that I would not be mistaken for a BG by any arriving backup!

Fire in the Hole
07-21-2009, 8:10 PM
A good LEO can count on me anytime! Of course I would use discretion and announce my intentions and make sure that I would not be mistaken for a BG by any arriving backup!

I don't mean to nik pick, I really don't. I admire your commitment to help. But, How would you ascertain a "good LEO" from a "bad LEO" that appeared to be in peril?

Fire in the Hole
07-21-2009, 8:21 PM
A little high and mighty when there is plenty of evidence supporting some bad apples among the troops.

I'd jump in to help in a heartbeat, no questions asked. But, I can see how some would be hesitant based simply on my own experiences with SOME, NOT MOST, LEOs, the legal system, and political sentiment of this state.

Just to keep a little perspective in the thread.

High and mighty? I don't get that part.

The post you refer to was purposely designed to add a new "Perspective" to the way we look at things. I intended to take the reader out of a locked-in myoptic view of LE vs Citizen, and cast a different, yet analogous set of circimstances to a similiar case of what I consider to be public apathy. I fear it has become epidemic in all facets of our society.

SkyStorm82
07-21-2009, 8:33 PM
+1;) If they can't defend themselves they should quit as an LEO.;)

Please. :rolleyes:

I don't care who you are. Someone.....somewhere....can kick your ***.

Ron-Solo
07-21-2009, 9:30 PM
+1;) If they can't defend themselves they should quit as an LEO.;)

I can defend myself pretty darn well, be everyone finds themselves outnumbered more often than not.

You are way out of touch with the real world. Now, I could waltz around with an AR-15 in a combat stance all day long but it's no more realistic than your absurd comment.

Fire in the Hole
07-21-2009, 9:35 PM
I can defend myself pretty darn well, be everyone finds themselves outnumbered more often than not.

You are way out of touch with the real world. Now, I could waltz around with an AR-15 in a combat stance all day long but it's no more realistic than your absurd comment.

Ron, absurd is an understatement. Assanine is more like it. How about the 2 or 3 against 1 situation. The 140 lbs. female cop against the 250 lbs. BG? He made an absolute statement that can not be supported.

oldironpants
07-21-2009, 10:05 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, all. Let's go back to what was the original intent of the thread.

As LEO's, we must understand that those that have not been in the trench, won't understand.

Citizens in the reverse must understand that there are some things in law enforcement that cannot be understood unless having been in that trench.

That doesn't mean that either is wrong for that perception is each person's reality. To stand toe to toe in the Marques of Queensbury Rules, is unrealistic. The State of California and the Constitution of the United States allows for a LEO to use that means of force necessary to effect a lawful arrest.

Insomuch, when someone resists arrest and the LEO is in a fight for life situation.... the question stands, would you assist? If you came home and your wife, child, significant other was in a fight for their life....would you engage?

I don't get paid to get beat up. That's against the law as well as the original reason that I am possibly contacting the BG for. I wear many tools on my belt (including boots and vest...about 20 pounds of extra crap), that doesn't mean that because I'm being overpowered, I can necessarily utilize deadly force. If I'm getting my kazoo kicked, I may not have the wherewithall to do so anyway.

I chose to be a sheepdog by profession. There are those that are sheepdogs by choice, and there are those that that will allow others to do their bidding and then chastise them for their decisions.

When we chose to be sheepdogs by profession or belief, we chose to protect all of the innocents no matter their view of the sheepdog. That dedication comes with inherent risks.

HotRails
07-21-2009, 10:17 PM
I don't mean to nik pick, I really don't. I admire your commitment to help. But, How would you ascertain a "good LEO" from a "bad LEO" that appeared to be in peril?

I think I see your point but to clarify my statement is that every situation is unique. I would just have to make a split second assessment of how the officer might interpret my attempts to help and just later hope that I am right.

TRICKSTER
07-21-2009, 11:16 PM
They're PAID to be there for us.

Really?

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

Grumpyoldretiredcop
07-21-2009, 11:37 PM
How many of you California citizen/gun owners would assist a police officer trying to make an arrest or one being jumped by gang-bangers!

Absolutely yes! I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if I didn't. Cop, citizen, wouldn't matter.

retired
07-22-2009, 12:04 AM
+1;) If they can't defend themselves they should quit as an LEO.;)

And if you can't follow the rules, don't post on this forum. Your statement is considered leo bashing and unacceptable.

sytfu_RR
07-22-2009, 12:55 AM
I would do my best, and make my intentions clear that I am there to assist the LEO not the BG. If it was a citizen I would try to be a expert witness, I would only intervene if life was at risk. ( I live in Oakland, I've seen many types of citizen crap, some I help some I don't. )

Ron-Solo
07-22-2009, 8:15 AM
Ron, absurd is an understatement. Assanine is more like it. How about the 2 or 3 against 1 situation. The 140 lbs. female cop against the 250 lbs. BG? He made an absolute statement that can not be supported.

Was trying to keep it clean :D

Fire in the Hole
07-22-2009, 9:05 AM
Was trying to keep it clean :D

Me too, in my own special way.

Mikeb
07-22-2009, 10:45 AM
I would help if they needed it (same goes for any non leo's that need help)

Seems like that is what defines "civil society". If it is helping a lil' ol' lady across the street, or a damsel or a LEO in distress; If we don't stand up then the predators win. I do what I can. It might just be watching the neighborhood or stopping to help a stranded motorist. I've never had to put life or limb on the line but I believe I would ,should the situation arise.
thanks for your service LEO
Mike

gregorylucas
07-23-2009, 12:10 PM
One of my best friends (a sheriff) would kick my butt if I didn't help!:)

Greg

yzernie
07-23-2009, 2:44 PM
I know some of the jackball comments have been removed but I'm pleasantly surprised at how many positive responses have been posted in this thread. I'd like to say a THANK YOU to the folks who have reminded me that there are many more good people out there than bad!! It is comforting to know there are folks who would risk their own safety to help me (us) if we needed them. :thumbsup:

Linh
07-23-2009, 3:20 PM
I'll help in a heart beat, of course I would let the Officer know before I jumped in.

Fire in the Hole
07-23-2009, 4:00 PM
I'll help in a heart beat, of course I would let the Officer know before I jumped in.

+1 for you. And please don't sell your self short in reguards to being female. (Of course if I had made that statement, it would be considered sexist). I was in a fight once in the gore point of s/b I-405 at the I-10 split in West LA. Me and the BG were bear hugged, and just rolling back on forth on the median strip. The BG kept trying to roll my head over the fog line into the path of traffic. I very well could have my melon squished. Which is exactly what the BG was trying to do. Probably about 50 vehicles drive by. A female motorists, slammed to a stop, backed up, and everytime I rolled the BG rolled on top of me, she swung her heavy metal fire extinguisher down on top of his head. She got in about 5 good whacks, until his skull fractured, and I could take control. My report read something along the lines of: An unknown/unidentified female citizen came to my rescue, and struck the suspect in the head with what appeared to ba a fire extinguisher as he and I were rolling on the ground in an embrace. The actions of this unknown/ unidentified female most probably saved my life, and allowed me to regain control of the situation, take the suspect into custody. The subject was transported via ambulance to the UCLA Medical Center, where he remains in critical and unstable condition. This unknown/unidentifed female departed the scene during the period of time that I was involved with the custody phase of this arrest. She was gone proir to me being able to obtain a witness statement or identification from her.


End of case.

Gryff
07-23-2009, 8:21 PM
A civilian led the Rangers up the tower during the UT Austin sniper incident in 1966.

I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....

This crosses my mind also, but I'd still help.

Fire in the Hole
07-23-2009, 8:26 PM
AP: July 23, 2009
The California Highway Patrol is calling a Southern California man a hero for rescuing a 3-year-old girl from a burning vehicle on a Los Angeles-area freeway.

John McDonald of West Covina was driving on Interstate 10 in El Monte Wednesday when he saw an overturned sports utility vehicle engulfed in flames.

Video footage shows him running to help as three people who escaped the burning SUV ran away. The CHP says the driver of the SUV shouted that her granddaughter was still inside, and McDonald went in to pull the girl out.

Both were treated for minor injuries.

McDonald told KABC-TV he jumped into action because he felt it was"something that needed to be done."

The cause of the crash is under investigation.


Okay my friends, I ask you, should this man have hesitated, for fear of a lawsuit for something like causing further injury to the girl during her extrication? What if LE or fire mistook him as an arsonist trying to stuff the little girl back inside? How many of you would claim to be just too old or out of shape to run in and do whatever gymnastics were necessary to save this child's life? How many of you would fret about burning your hands or suffering smoke inhailation during the rescue?

And lastly how could your ever look at yourself in the mirror if you just stood there and thought, "Gee somebody should call 911 or something." "I'd like to help, but I'm already late for an appointment." "If the family needs help, then they should call for it themselves." "I'm not paid nor trained to do that." "Let the professionals handle it, they should be along in a few minutes, that's what we pay them to do."

I ask these not as hypothetical questions. Do some soul searching and consider some of the previous posts on this thread, then answer the questions.

Fire in the Hole
07-23-2009, 8:27 PM
A civilian led the Rangers up the tower during the UT Austin sniper incident in 1966.



This crosses my mind also, but I'd still help.

Good that's a start. Now uncross it.

badicedog
07-23-2009, 8:28 PM
I think if you have to ask yourself, or think about if you would help a LEO, then clearly the answer is NO. I first would ask the LEO if he needed assistance first.

Gryff
07-23-2009, 8:35 PM
Okay my friends, I ask you, should this man have hesitated, for fear of a lawsuit for something like causing further injury to the girl during her extrication?

This is kind of off-topic, since the LEO isn't on-site and you're coming to his assistance.

But the question is valid. In California, if you pulled the little girl out and the act exacerbated a spinal or head injury in the process, the family IS going to sue you. And if you are not a trained EMT, you are probably not protected under any Good Samaritan laws.

It's a sick world when a judge wouldn't punch a lawyer in the mouth just for bringing this kind of lawsuit.

badicedog
07-23-2009, 8:41 PM
No, you would still be protected under the Good Samaritan law as long as intervention is to save someones life or the person is in a life threatening situation. Bottom line is you don't think about that stuff in a life death situation! Period! You react! You take action...

masameet
07-23-2009, 8:43 PM
I didn't know him well but I met Martinez PD Sgt. Paul Starzyk while his uniform still bore two chevrons and then chatted with him a few times after he made sergeant. Twice he gave me firearms advice. I know it sounds kinda corny now, but if I could have helped as he and the first K9 officer, who I also know, were dealing with that crazed gunman, I would have.

I'd also like to think that I would help any LEO who needed assistance. Not to be immodest, but I'm a decent shot and I keep my head in emergencies. Plus I love unusual challenges. That being said, I'm pretty sure I would help most people. I've stopped for fellow motorcyclists who were in accidents or had problems with their bikes. I've given rides to guys up in Tahoe who were fool-hardy enough to walk along the freeway during snow storms. Have given food, clothing, money and even a large back pack with frame to the homeless. And I stopped to give a woman and her son a ride after their old station wagon conked out on a busy freeway late at night and while a light drizzle was falling. Heck, I even tried to help a guy who had collapsed at a local golf driving range. Unfortunately he did not make it.

Gryff
07-23-2009, 8:51 PM
No, you would still be protected under the Good Samaritan law as long as intervention is to save someones life or the person is in a life threatening situation. Bottom line is you don't think about that stuff in a life death situation! Period! You react! You take action...

It's my understanding that you are only protected under Good Samaritan laws if you are competent to understand the situation and perform the correct action.

badicedog
07-23-2009, 9:00 PM
It's my understanding that you are only protected under Good Samaritan laws if you are competent to understand the situation and perform the correct action.

Just about anyone not deemed 5150 or threat to themselves is competent to understand what a life threatening situation is. That motorist was competent to know there was someone's child in that burning SUV that needed help. BTW shame on the relatives for running away and leaving the child in the car. I would have rather burn alive with my child then abandoned them! FOOD FOR THOUGHT...

PS. If you are worried about Good Samaritan laws, ponder a situation aboard a jetliner crossing state boundaries...

Fire in the Hole
07-23-2009, 9:03 PM
This is kind of off-topic, since the LEO isn't on-site and you're coming to his assistance.

But the question is valid. In California, if you pulled the little girl out and the act exacerbated a spinal or head injury in the process, the family IS going to sue you. And if you are not a trained EMT, you are probably not protected under any Good Samaritan laws.

It's a sick world when a judge wouldn't punch a lawyer in the mouth just for bringing this kind of lawsuit.

Not really off-topic as the principal of ethics is the same.

I know you don't mean it. Your heart might be in the right place. But I believe that you have become frightened as have millions of others of considering legal ramifications which in this case would not happen, instead of following you own moral compass and doing the right thing. This is clouding your thinking. I think you know what the right thing to do is.

Society may judge you in the present. Think about how St. Peter will judge you in the future.

GuyW
07-24-2009, 10:17 AM
BTW shame on the relatives for running away and leaving the child in the car.

The natural result of unthinking people who believe in the nanny state...
.

yzernie
07-24-2009, 11:39 AM
BTW shame on the relatives for running away and leaving the child in the car. I would have rather burn alive with my child then abandoned them!
Excellent comment!!! :thumbsup:....THIS is what the parent or those relatives SHOULD have been thinking. How they could be of any other mindset is beyond me. IMHO, this is exactly what is wrong with society as a whole...the "what's in it for me?" mentality would have let that child burn to death. Sad.

PatriotnMore
07-24-2009, 11:42 AM
Just imagine what it would be like to live in a society where, "Honor Killings" are acceptable, and the norm.:mad:

Jesus, they throw away their wives, women and female children like so much of yesterdays trash.

Excellent comment!!! :thumbsup:....THIS is what the parent or those relatives SHOULD have been thinking. How they could be of any other mindset is beyond me. IMHO, this is exactly what is wrong with society as a whole...the "what's in it for me?" mentality would have let that child burn to death. Sad.

wikidklown
07-24-2009, 11:58 AM
I will help anyone in distress...
LEO definitely, a civilian but I gotta make sure it's the GG first though LOL!

Khram
07-24-2009, 2:30 PM
A civilian led the Rangers up the tower during the UT Austin sniper incident in 1966.
.

Getting ot, but the officers led up the tower by the citizen were not Texas rangers at the time.

And citizens also assisted by providing cover fire against the sniper from the ground level.

GuyW
07-24-2009, 4:32 PM
And citizens also assisted by providing cover fire against the sniper from the ground level.

....and how did they do that?

Was open carry legal? (I'm thinking CCWs didn't exist in Tx then...)

.

yzernie
07-24-2009, 4:57 PM
Im only answering the OP's question not looking to argue or be bashed for my decision

and my answer is NO I would not help.
Only answering your answer and not looking to be bashed for my honest and no 'attitude inflected' questions.
- Why the emphasis on "NO" instead of just a plain ole 'no'?
- Is it because it is an LEO that needs help or is your answer "NO" to anyone who would need help?

Khram
07-24-2009, 5:00 PM
....and how did they do that?

Was open carry legal? (I'm thinking CCWs didn't exist in Tx then...)

.

Retrieved deer rifles from home, trunks.

cedew
07-24-2009, 5:10 PM
Great thread, fun reading!

I would definitely help out. I would ask for permission unless the LEO was getting worked, in which case I wouldn't want my presence to be known by the BG.

The original question by the OP was "gang-bangers", as in, more than one. What do you do when the LEO is ridiculously outnumbered? Where one more person on his side isn't going to do anything.

And to take it a step further, what if the situation is like this: http://www.modbee.com/local/story/648161.html

ITZJT
07-24-2009, 5:25 PM
AbsoFREAKINlutley would! I have and will help someone in need of it not just a LEO.. I have on many occasion and will continue to :cheers2:

yzernie
07-24-2009, 6:04 PM
And to take it a step further, what if the situation is like this: http://www.modbee.com/local/story/648161.html
This is the type of incident that will make you leave chocolate pudding in your underwear. Glad he got out with his life.

scr83jp
07-24-2009, 6:40 PM
Those are the 2 main factors that I generally don't get involved unless it's a life and death situation. It's a sad attitude, I know. All the officer has to say is posse comatatus covers your aiding him in the arrest & detention of the perp.I did arrests for 32 years some were easy some weren't but I usually had backup or sometimes civilian volunteers who got involved detaining the suspect.

ruffstock
07-25-2009, 11:26 PM
I'd jump in for sure. Im not the type to look for trouble myself but I have always made it a point to take a good look at traffic stops as well as motorists that break down. I gues Im one of the few left out there that will actually stop to help a little old lady or a mom with three kids in the car to fix a flat or figure why there car wont go. I hope to see allot more folks responces saying that they would. LEO's have kids and wifes that look forward to hearing them come through that front door just like the rest of us.

Turbinator
07-26-2009, 10:50 AM
Good that's a start. Now uncross it.

So, I'm one of those who would help out if I could be of help. However, the fear that we could be mistaken for a bad guy is a real fear. Only I know in my own head that I am here to help - but outside observers may not know that. I'd love to rest easy and never fear that coming to the aid of someone would put me in danger with the responding authorities - but I don't think that is something you or anyone could ever guarantee. Just for the sake of discussion, could you kindly explain your comment of "now uncross it"?

Turby

Lyte-
07-26-2009, 11:14 AM
....and how did they do that?

Was open carry legal? (I'm thinking CCWs didn't exist in Tx then...)

.

They are called CHL's in Texas and they exist.

You are also permitted to open carry and keep gun racks in your car if you choose to.

NotEnoughGuns
07-26-2009, 11:30 AM
Once while leaving a Target store I saw a dirtbag acting suspicious, right as he got out the door two security guards tackled him. I thought to myself "this could be interesting" so I put down my bag and stood right there just waiting. The security guys were having a hard time with the crackhead and I'm a fairly big/strong guy so I figured if I thought they needed help I would comply. Well one say "HELP!" I didn't hesitate, Dropped my knee right into the morons back and he let out a sound of "UUUUUUHHH!" It was strange as I started to work this dude over with wresting moves I learned in high school that I thought were long forgotten but came back to me so vividly. We got the cuffs on him, he was bleeding :43: and I said a few choice words to him. So I decided I should go before some one asked my name and had a law suit coming my way. But WOW what a rush I got from that. As I was walking away with Wife and Kids I tell my wife "man that was fun!". You should have see the looks on the bystanders faces.

So yeah, I don't think I could not help an LEO

Fire in the Hole
07-26-2009, 5:46 PM
So, I'm one of those who would help out if I could be of help. However, the fear that we could be mistaken for a bad guy is a real fear. Only I know in my own head that I am here to help - but outside observers may not know that. I'd love to rest easy and never fear that coming to the aid of someone would put me in danger with the responding authorities - but I don't think that is something you or anyone could ever guarantee. Just for the sake of discussion, could you kindly explain your comment of "now uncross it"?

Turby

I'd love to. It's a valid question. My answer may be long, but I feel it deserves a comprehensive answer. Okay so here goes. Like many others, my thoughts and comments are based upon my own life experiences.

Gryff posted that the thought of responding LEO's mistaking him for a BG had "CROSSED" his mind in the past. My reply to him was to "UNCROSS" this part of his mindset for the future. Reasoning: I have had a few concepts drilled into my mind by those responsible for my training in both the military and in LE. One of those concepts is "He who hesitates is lost." If you are letting something "Cross" your mind, this leads to hesitation. We have learned from scientists that it takes 3/4 of a second to percieve a hazard, and another 3/4 of a second to react to it. That's 1 1/2 seconds to live or die. Fairbain writes extensively about this, as does Ayoob.

Now for my personal application. When I read Gryff's post, it brought back a point in time for me. I was just 20 yrs. old. In Army Airborne School, Ft. Bragg, NC. It was my first solo jump, even though from a static line. I remember at abound 10 thousand feet, the Jumpmaster came on the loud speaker and anncounced, "Okay girls, it's time to fish or just sit on the pier and cut bait. In a few seconds you are gonna stand in the hole and do something completley un-natural. You are gonna jump into the sky, and leave the safety of a perfectly good airplane. Now I know that many of you have heard the only two things fall from the sky. Bird s***, and fools. That stuff just clouds up you thinking. Don't allow it to cross you mind for one second! Uncross it now. If you hesitate to think about all the what if's that could go wrong when you're standing in the hole, you'll not only "f" yourself up , but you'll "f" up your partner and everyone else standing behind you. You know what to do. You've been trained. Now go do it!"

So to re-cap, my comment to Gryff was to encourage him to get his mind clear, "Uncross it." Crossed up thinking is bad.

studiojon has posted that he will not help out. I'm actually okay with that, in as much as he has apparently thought it out, made a decision, and can be counted on not to help. At least I know where he stands.

As to being confused for a BG by responding LEO's: I know of hundreds of cases where a citizen has come to the aid or rescue of an LEO in distress. Yet I know of no such cases, where a citizen has been mistaken as a BG by responding LEO's and subsequently shot, tazed, batoned, etc. I'm sure that someone will come up with an example that they've heard about at some time and some place, but I know of none. While there may be some initial concern for this, academically at least. This is the time now to address it, before it becomes a reality for you. This is one of the great things about a forum such as this. Let's discuss it now, make up our minds one way or the other, then act on it. I can not for one second, in my wildest imagination even concieve of not helping an LEO or other citizen in dire straights. The thought would not even "Cross" my mind. It's not how I was raised, trained, or lived.

Turbinator, no one can grant you a guarentee when it comes to human beings. It's just not possible. I wish I could do that for you, but I can not. However, in conclusion I'll close on this thought: We are all adults, we have all seen things, we have all heard things, we have all lived things. Now go do the right thing.

iRIGHTi
07-26-2009, 6:30 PM
physically without hesitation...and if I was UOC at the time, by locking & loading/firing center mass in 1.5-2.0sec if the situation called for it. God Bless our LEO's! they deal with so many scum bags on a day to day basis. sometimes...to many times...it's hard for them to tell us LAW ABIDING GOOD GUYS from the bad guys. especially when it comes to firearms.
remember, citizens are police and the police are citizens. it's the LEO's job to confront the criminals. hopefully when needed, a citizen is there to back them up WHEN the need arises. so many instances of one citizen CCW or UOC having been able to save so many lives. the list goes on and on and the trend seems to show it will continue unfortunately.

mtsul
07-29-2009, 12:34 AM
I wonder also sugi942

tyrist
07-29-2009, 12:52 AM
Great thread, fun reading!

I would definitely help out. I would ask for permission unless the LEO was getting worked, in which case I wouldn't want my presence to be known by the BG.

The original question by the OP was "gang-bangers", as in, more than one. What do you do when the LEO is ridiculously outnumbered? Where one more person on his side isn't going to do anything.

And to take it a step further, what if the situation is like this: http://www.modbee.com/local/story/648161.html

That is one of those situations where it is possible for you to draw your weapon and start firing from the right and work your way left until they are all dead or you.

3rd°
07-30-2009, 3:38 AM
Imo, I wouldn't hesitate to help out since I want to be a LEO and am in the selection process. Unfortunately, I feel that if an officer has put himself in a life threatening situation he can not overcome himself, he has not been trained properly in the academy and by his FTO. I understand certain situations arise, and peoples lives are already at risk with the criminal at large, but what if the helping citizen is harmed or killed. The LEO is S.O.L. and is a liability to the deptartment. Now if your an officer reading this or asking this question because you are wondering what if... then you need to find another job, becuase your not ready for the streets and you will be a victim of your mistakes.

socaldsal
07-30-2009, 4:23 AM
Imo, I wouldn't hesitate to help out since I want to be a LEO and am in the selection process. Unfortunately, I feel that if an officer has put himself in a life threatening situation he can not overcome himself, he has not been trained properly in the academy and by his FTO. I understand certain situations arise, and peoples lives are already at risk with the criminal at large, but what if the helping citizen is harmed or killed. The LEO is S.O.L. and is a liability to the deptartment. Now if your an officer reading this or asking this question because you are wondering what if... then you need to find another job, becuase your not ready for the streets and you will be a victim of your mistakes.

Have you served in the military? Or were you a LEO elsewhere? I'm just curious is all.

Not so. Sometimes an officer can be ganged up on by someone he thought was just watching. Maybe the guy is pumped up on some sh*t and doesn't mind breaking off his left hand, and is working his way out of restraint. Adrenaline plus drugs are funny that way.

YOU may one day be that "liability" you speak of because for whatever reason, with all your planning for that day, you run into the one mothereffer that just came out of left field with the goal of f'n your day up.

6172crew
07-30-2009, 8:02 AM
3rd- These are humans, not robocops. It's nice you will hold yourself to high standards but if you make it to patrol Im sure you will make mistakes..just like the rest of the humans :)

yzernie
07-30-2009, 8:49 AM
Imo, I wouldn't hesitate to help out since I want to be a LEO and am in the selection process. Unfortunately, I feel that if an officer has put himself in a life threatening situation he can not overcome himself, he has not been trained properly in the academy and by his FTO. I understand certain situations arise, and peoples lives are already at risk with the criminal at large, but what if the helping citizen is harmed or killed. The LEO is S.O.L. and is a liability to the deptartment. Now if your an officer reading this or asking this question because you are wondering what if... then you need to find another job, becuase your not ready for the streets and you will be a victim of your mistakes.
Wow....absolutely no intention of being rude but I must ask these couple questions....

- What experience do you have for you to make these comments?
- Do you have any street experience or military experience?
- Is this something you have read in a book(s)?

Comments like you have made above indicate to those of us who have been on the streets that when you get hired and go to patrol your learning curve is going to be very steep. Good luck in the hiring process during these difficult economic times.

waitwha?
07-30-2009, 9:03 AM
I think it depends. If I felt comfortable helping out, I would. But if the guy was slashing around with a knife or shooting, I'd run.

Fat_Rat
07-30-2009, 9:19 AM
Great thread, fun reading!

I would definitely help out. I would ask for permission unless the LEO was getting worked, in which case I wouldn't want my presence to be known by the BG.

The original question by the OP was "gang-bangers", as in, more than one. What do you do when the LEO is ridiculously outnumbered? Where one more person on his side isn't going to do anything.

And to take it a step further, what if the situation is like this: http://www.modbee.com/local/story/648161.html

WOW! Broken radio, a mob of 60, and an assult rifle. I cant imagine what might have been going thru the officers mind. I salute this officer for his bravery and service. :)

retired
07-30-2009, 1:48 PM
Imo, I wouldn't hesitate to help out since I want to be a LEO and am in the selection process. Unfortunately, I feel that if an officer has put himself in a life threatening situation he can not overcome himself, he has not been trained properly in the academy and by his FTO. I understand certain situations arise, and peoples lives are already at risk with the criminal at large, but what if the helping citizen is harmed or killed. The LEO is S.O.L. and is a liability to the deptartment. Now if your an officer reading this or asking this question because you are wondering what if... then you need to find another job, becuase your not ready for the streets and you will be a victim of your mistakes.

Initially, I was going to delete your thread for leo bashing when I first read this. Upon re-reading it, I realized it really is not; you are just naive. If you make it thru your testing and then thru the academy, your learning curve will, indeed, be very steep as yzernie said.

There will always be someone out there who can beat you; either because they are stronger, crazy or on some drug. If you don't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

When PCP was really going hot back in the early 80s, I got into a wrestling match with a 18yr. old kid who was about 5" shorter and 50lbs. lighter than I. I was in excellent shape at the time. I was trying to cuff him and it turned into a wrestling match. My FTO hit him in the back with the baton on two occasions and his only reaction was a blink; it didn't slow him one bit. I finally got him cuffed as the calvary showed up and it felt like I had just run 10 miles.

When he finally came down from it while booking him at MCJ, he had no idea where he was or what had occurred.

So, please do not tell us who have been or are still in le, that we should have or should get out of the work if the type of situation arises you referred to occurs.

I sincerely hope you make it thru an academy if you are hired. I also hope you are safe and never experience a situation such as you mentioned. If you ever do tho, please return here and let us know if you decided to quit if a subject was able to overpower you.;)

goathead
07-30-2009, 2:23 PM
Imo, I wouldn't hesitate to help out since I want to be a LEO and am in the selection process. Unfortunately, I feel that if an officer has put himself in a life threatening situation he can not overcome himself, he has not been trained properly in the academy and by his FTO. I understand certain situations arise, and peoples lives are already at risk with the criminal at large, but what if the helping citizen is harmed or killed. The LEO is S.O.L. and is a liability to the deptartment. Now if your an officer reading this or asking this question because you are wondering what if... then you need to find another job, becuase your not ready for the streets and you will be a victim of your mistakes.

WOW dude its not a video game :cool:

yzernie
07-30-2009, 3:43 PM
If you ever do tho, please return here and let us know if you decided to quit if a subject was able to overpower you.;)
Fixed it for you Bill...I think you meant to say "when a subject is able to overpower you". It really isn't a matter of "if", it is a matter of being prepared for 'when' it happens, because at some point in everyones career it will happen. ;)

tyrist
07-30-2009, 10:59 PM
Imo, I wouldn't hesitate to help out since I want to be a LEO and am in the selection process. Unfortunately, I feel that if an officer has put himself in a life threatening situation he can not overcome himself, he has not been trained properly in the academy and by his FTO. I understand certain situations arise, and peoples lives are already at risk with the criminal at large, but what if the helping citizen is harmed or killed. The LEO is S.O.L. and is a liability to the deptartment. Now if your an officer reading this or asking this question because you are wondering what if... then you need to find another job, becuase your not ready for the streets and you will be a victim of your mistakes.

You are extremely naive...we don't usually put ourselves into those situations the public at large calls us there. Who else are they going to call when when a father is totally crazed on PCP and rapes his 12 year old daughter? If you make it into the field you will learn that numerous people call us into situations that they themselves caused or allowed to deteriorate.

nicki
07-31-2009, 3:00 PM
Police officers unlike us, have to go to trouble. We have the option of retreat, they don't.

There was a case in San Fran where a homeless person started to beat up on a Female SFPD officer and a crowd formed around and just watched.

My view is that we as civilians for the most part should stay out of the way of police officers and let them do their jobs.

That being said, if it is obvious that a officer is in trouble, we have a duty to step up and help them in anyway we can.

Criminals need to fear that when they attack the police, they also attack us.

As more and more cops are saved by CCW holders which has happened across the country, support for our rights from Cops will increase.

Nicki

yzernie
07-31-2009, 3:07 PM
sorry just wanted the no to stand out as the answer to the question.. so it really is just a plain ol no. and yes it is only a no for LEO as I have helped many an average citizen in distress and will continue to do so :chris:
Curious why you would help "an average citizen" and not help an LEO who needs assistence.

goathead
07-31-2009, 6:57 PM
I have my reasons

i hope they order you to, then when you don't, they take you in ;)

code33
07-31-2009, 9:52 PM
Actually, police officers can retreat, they just don't have to.

835a PC.
Any peace officer who has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed a public offense may use reasonable force to effect the arrest, to prevent escape or to overcome resistance. A peace officer who makes or attempts to make an arrest need not retreat or desist from his efforts by reason of the resistance or threatened resistance of the person being arrested; nor shall such officer be deemed an aggressor or lose his right to self-defense by the use of reasonable force to effect the arrest or to prevent escape or to overcome resistance.

Police officers unlike us, have to go to trouble. We have the option of retreat, they don't.

retired
07-31-2009, 11:09 PM
i hope they order you to, then when you don't, they take you in ;)

Tho we may not agree with studiojon's answer and his lack of explanation, it is his answer. Please don't let this thread degenerate into something bad. The above is going down that road.

3rd°
08-01-2009, 1:17 AM
straighten up and fly right, if thats the way you want to behave you won't be doing it here much longer. ~ rkt88edmo

leitung
08-01-2009, 3:12 AM
To help get the thread back on track...
Part of me getting involved in a situation would be to make sure I am accually helping, and not getting in the way of the officer. If the officer is getting the crap beat out of him/her , or if he/she is alone with no back and trying to get a suspect under control I would jump in and assist the LEO in anyway possible. However, I find it important to make sure I am helping, and not hurting the officer. If the LEO looks like he/she has the situation under control.. then there would be no need. If things appear to be going south, I would approach, and make it clear that I am there to HELP. By doing so this means following the officer's directions to the letter. If he or she says they have it under control. Then just back off... Maybe observe from an accessible distance incase things go south from there.

I assisted a CHP officer while on duty as an armed guard who had a traffic stop behind my building. She had a car with mutiple male subjects (4 I recall) and was by herself. I approached with my hands and plain view, after getting flashlighted quickly, I exclaimed quickly "Security! May I be of assistance?" She asked me to watch the subjects while she ran some info. I did so until she ticketed the driver and sent them on their way. She thanked me and I went on my way.
She was noticably nervous when I approached her, as it was dark, in probably one of the worst hoods in Sacramento. I am sure she was glad to have my help.

artherd
08-01-2009, 3:18 AM
Been there done that when it comes to being first on scene at an accident. I'm no hero and the suv never blew up.

Most of the time you just let the pros do their job. If they really need it though, they can count on me.

Fire in the Hole
08-01-2009, 5:52 AM
To help get the thread back on track...
Part of me getting involved in a situation would be to make sure I am accually helping, and not getting in the way of the officer. If the officer is getting the crap beat out of him/her , or if he/she is alone with no back and trying to get a suspect under control I would jump in and assist the LEO in anyway possible. However, I find it important to make sure I am helping, and not hurting the officer. If the LEO looks like he/she has the situation under control.. then there would be no need. If things appear to be going south, I would approach, and make it clear that I am there to HELP. By doing so this means following the officer's directions to the letter. If he or she says they have it under control. Then just back off... Maybe observe from an accessible distance incase things go south from there.

I assisted a CHP officer while on duty as an armed guard who had a traffic stop behind my building. She had a car with mutiple male subjects (4 I recall) and was by herself. I approached with my hands and plain view, after getting flashlighted quickly, I exclaimed quickly "Security! May I be of assistance?" She asked me to watch the subjects while she ran some info. I did so until she ticketed the driver and sent them on their way. She thanked me and I went on my way.
She was noticably nervous when I approached her, as it was dark, in probably one of the worst hoods in Sacramento. I am sure she was glad to have my help.

See now this is an example of just about the perfect way to think and act in such a situation. Way to go leitung!

yzernie
08-01-2009, 1:50 PM
Disclaimer: No attitude inflected in the below comment so please do not read one into my words.

I have my reasons

I can appreciate that. I just don't see any differentiation between a 'citizen' and an LEO. Your obvious dislike for LEOs apparently runs pretty deep and I would encourage you to rethink your logic and remember on occasion, no LEO is beyond needing the help of the community.

Jonathan Doe
08-01-2009, 2:01 PM
Whether we get help from others or not, we get the job done, for the most parts. It would be just matter of time, how soon we take care of it, or later. It would be nice to get some help when we need it though. Once, I was arresting a guy with a loaded and concealed gun by myself. Two LAPD motor officers saw me and backed me up. I felt good with their presence.

goathead
08-01-2009, 5:14 PM
Disclaimer: No attitude inflected in the below comment so please do not read one into my words.



I can appreciate that. I just don't see any differentiation between a 'citizen' and an LEO. Your obvious dislike for LEOs apparently runs pretty deep and I would encourage you to rethink your logic and remember on occasion, no LEO is beyond needing the help of the community.

well said

goathead
08-01-2009, 5:15 PM
Tho we may not agree with studiojon's answer and his lack of explanation, it is his answer. Please don't let this thread degenerate into something bad. The above is going down that road.

ok ;)

Fire in the Hole
08-01-2009, 5:46 PM
While studiojon's answer concerns me, it is his honest answer. There is obviously a story behind a story there. That is what the original question was about. Would you help?

Actually, I respect studiojon's black and white answer more than such answers as: I would unless the distressed officer was a member of the XYZ LE Dept. Or, I would but only if believed the distressed officer was really one of the good guys, and not an instigator, or trying to make a false arrest.

For God's sake, how would you know this information on a spontaneous, spur of the moment, hot scene? Ask to review his personnel file before helping? Convene a preliminary hearing on the shoulder of a highway, to verify if it is indeed a valid arrest?

bruceflinch
08-01-2009, 9:03 PM
I'll cover your six!

Adehtla
08-03-2009, 4:43 AM
I've never had to come to the aid of a police officer, and I'm thankful for that-- I'm sure they are as well. That said, nothing would stop me from assisting any officer or civilian if I felt it necessary. Actually, that's a lie. If they told me they didn't need help, I wouldn't. I would stay close by though... Just in case.

Sure, we all would agree that having a CCW would make things a lot easier-- end the situation quicker-- but we're in California. Open and unloaded carry is one way, but that's nowhere near accepted by society, so it's more hassle that it's worth at this point. Because of that, I *ALWAYS* carry at least one knife on me, and if that is what I have to use to aid the officer or individual effectively, that is what I will use. Though, I will feel no pity for the person who is unfortunate enough to be attacking someone when I'm on my way to or from the shooting range.

It's safe to say that I'll backup anyone, PD or civilian, who is being attacked and either needs help immediately, asks for help, or accepts my offer. I refuse to sit by and let people be injured or killed while the BG gets away. Not on my watch.

TenSeven
08-03-2009, 5:37 AM
Count me in. Again...

HBPD was nice enough to write me out of the initial arrest / use-of-force arrest report an "unknown, concerned passerby".


I'm in without a second thought.



Well, I was about 30yo at the time that happened... now that 40 has passed me by? F-it, I'm still in.

hammerhands32
08-03-2009, 5:14 PM
I would help the officer for sure. I prepare for such an occasion by watching MMA.:rolleyes:

wboughton
08-07-2009, 1:23 PM
I've got a pretty funny little story: A while ago in the Modesto area my brother-in-law was working as a train conductor for a railroad company. They had been having regular break-ins and robberies in the yard where someone would hop the fence steal some tools and other valuables and leave before the police would arrive.

Well one night he showed up in the trainyard, continued his regular regimen of stealing things. My brother-in-law saw him and took off after him, the guy freaked and ran. Police were already in the area and followed him as he ran down an alley. My brother-in-law was running alongside an officer chasing the same man. That is...until the officer tripped on a pipe. My brother-in-law kept chase and managed to tackle the guy and keep him subdued until the officer caught up and arrested him.

The arresting officer gave my brother-in-law a thank you and asked him to wait a while so he could give his statement.

When the rest of the officers arrived my brother-in-law was still waiting and being given some stern looks from other officers. The arresting officer walked up and extended his hand for a handshake and another thank you, it turns out this guy was wanted for several robberies in the area within the last few weeks.

The officer suddenly had a very odd look on his face and was pulled his hand back, mid-shake. My brother-in-law says "I bet you never would have guessed you would be shaking hands with a Hell's Angel, would you?"

My brother-in-law and the officer both needed to catch this guy, and worked together to do so. Putting aside their own prejudices, they succeeded. Cant we all just get along, haha :p

TenSeven
08-09-2009, 4:18 AM
I can't imagine a situation where LE would need help from a civilian...


I can...

A different and non-violent scanario:

One night loooong ago, I heard a call of a traffic accident in the unincorporated area of Torrance (LASD Carson's initial handle until CHP decides to show up). I was in the area so I went to the location to help out if I could.

On my arrival (3rd or so unit on-scene), I saw a civilian man doing chest compressions and a Deputy doing mouth-to-mouth on an unconscious woman who was injured in the collision.

The man doing the chest compressions was very calm, composed and authoritative while directing "who to do what" as needed, he knew what needed to be done and MORE THAN rose to the occasion. I was very impressed...

He apparently came upon the collision just after it happened and lept to render assistance.

So, within a few moments of my arrival, Fire also arrives and takes over and does their thing, but the woman is already dead.

The worst part for me was when a sergeant said "Did anyone get that man's info? He deserves recognition for what he did."

Talk about feeling STUPID! None of us got his info and he just faded into the background and went on his way without a word when Fire arrived...

This man deserved recognition for what he did and I failed to ask his name. To this day I am disappointed about it.

Sir: if you are out there and happen to read this: Well Done, and Thank You.


There are lots of ways to be of assistance to LE...

Fire in the Hole
08-09-2009, 7:41 AM
I can't imagine a situation where LE would need help from a civilian, they have plenty armaments and force. On the other hand if anyone was getting criminally assaulted I would do something. Certianly would think well before presenting a gun in the presence of cops and fighting going on could be bad for your health.


Have you read this entire thread? If so perhaps you missed posts #69 and #99. Go back read these and that should answer your question.

oldsmoboat
08-09-2009, 5:22 PM
I work for Caltrans. My step-son graduated the CHP academy a few years ago,
According to him, they were told to take it easy on Caltrans because when he was on the side of the road getting his butt kicked that Caltrans was going to be the ones to stop and help.

:eek:

Fire in the Hole
08-09-2009, 5:46 PM
I work for Caltrans. My step-son graduated the CHP academy a few years ago,
According to him, they were told to take it easy on Caltrans because when he was on the side of the road getting his butt kicked that Caltrans was going to be the ones to stop and help.

:eek:


Well I never actually received that specific order, but yes, Cal Trans has stepped in to help me a few times. I was in a fignt in Piru on the 126. They screeched to a halt, got out out with shovels and pick axes. Two whollops into the kidneys and knee caps for the BG was all it took. Well one of them had a chain saw, but that wasn't necessary. I have a lot of respect for Cal Trans.

otalps
08-09-2009, 8:27 PM
Well I never actually received that specific order, but yes, Cal Trans has stepped in to help me a few times. I was in a fignt in Piru on the 126. They screeched to a halt, got out out with shovels and pick axes. Two whollops into the kidneys and knee caps for the BG was all it took. Well one of them had a chain saw, but that wasn't necessary. I have a lot of respect for Cal Trans.

Wow, how many fights have you been in on the freeway?

OT, I would try to lend a hand if the occasion were to arise.

Fire in the Hole
08-09-2009, 8:34 PM
Wow, how many fights have you been in on the freeway?
OT, I would try to lend a hand if the occasion were to arise.

I've run out of fingers and toes. Let's just say for some reason I attracted 5150's and those prone to fight like a moth to a candle. Just lucky or my lot in life.

otalps
08-09-2009, 8:42 PM
I've run out of fingers and toes. Let's just say for some reason I attracted 5150's and those prone to fight like a moth to a candle. Just lucky or my lot in life.

Glad everything worked out for you in the end then.

I never realized it was that common to get into an altercation from what I would assume to be traffic stops, yeah? Were they mostly people that had been doing other crimes or were afraid of going to jail for warrants; or were they really just crazy and mad that you stopped them?

Fire in the Hole
08-09-2009, 8:59 PM
Glad everything worked out for you in the end then.

I never realized it was that common to get into an altercation from what I would assume to be traffic stops, yeah? Were they mostly people that had been doing other crimes or were afraid of going to jail for warrants; or were they really just crazy and mad that you stopped them?

D: All of the above.

Or maybe I just have a face that people want to hit.

But having said that, I served under one of the best Sgt.s one could imagine. He was S-1 on Motors, and had to kill 4 people in self defense during his 32 yr. career. I'm glad I never had to go through that.

Almostryan3
08-09-2009, 9:00 PM
I would do anything in my power to help. Seeing as I want to be a LEO soon, I appreciate all the people that would help out too.

Brings that story to mind of that old WW2 veteran that was like 70 getting beat up by some gangster looking guy and a handful of guys were seen in the background on the security camera watching this old man being slammed in his car door. Uhg **** like that disgust me! I would gladly take the place of getting an *** beating rather than some senior citizen or child or female that doesn't stand as good a chance to defend themselves! (not saying i wouldn't help a grown man in need if he were outnumbered or in serious harm, but its usually pretty fair and hard to tell who is actually the victim in just a 1v1 guy fight or what not)

SanSacto
08-09-2009, 9:01 PM
I'd jump in if the suspect wasn't armed nor a giant. If he was, I would get a weapon and help.

luckystrike
08-11-2009, 3:00 AM
cops treated me like crap when i was growing up, but id still jump in and save the day

AJAX22
08-12-2009, 5:46 AM
I know a funny story about a vietnam vet just back in the states in the early 70's who helped out some police officers.

He was carying a 1911 concealed in a shoulder holster in san francisco when he saw a firefight between some police and a bank robber who had good cover.... My friend was behind and to the side of the robbers so he drew and fired 1 round from cover into the shoulder of the robber which pretty much ended the gunplay.

Then he holstered the pistol and walked away. The officers never looked too hard into where that extra .45 slug came from.

I don't think it would fly these days...

What limits are there on the use of force when assisting an officer? I'd like to help but I tend to fight to win, not to subdue/arrest etc.... And I suspect that kicking someone repeatedly in the head is 'just not cricket'... at what point do you stop beating on the guy? what if the officer is unable (not conscious etc) to inform you of the point at which you should stop beating them? Can you get in trouble for excessive use of force? What if you beat them to death, or kill them by putting boot to skull?

Not that I think it will come up, but it would be nice to know BEFORE something occurred rather than afterward.

Ron-Solo
08-12-2009, 8:07 AM
When he stops resisting, you gotta stop

gunrun45
08-12-2009, 8:42 AM
We once had an over zelous officer take on a group of gang members one night. He was saved (they had disarmed him and were holding a gun to his head) by a citizen who came out of his house with his "huntin gun" to save him. You want to talk about greatful...

Z ME FLY
08-12-2009, 10:22 AM
I can...

A different and non-violent scanario:

One night loooong ago, I heard a call of a traffic accident in the unincorporated area of Torrance (LASD Carson's initial handle until CHP decides to show up). I was in the area so I went to the location to help out if I could.

On my arrival (3rd or so unit on-scene), I saw a civilian man doing chest compressions and a Deputy doing mouth-to-mouth on an unconscious woman who was injured in the collision.

The man doing the chest compressions was very calm, composed and authoritative while directing "who to do what" as needed, he knew what needed to be done and MORE THAN rose to the occasion. I was very impressed...

He apparently came upon the collision just after it happened and lept to render assistance.

So, within a few moments of my arrival, Fire also arrives and takes over and does their thing, but the woman is already dead.

The worst part for me was when a sergeant said "Did anyone get that man's info? He deserves recognition for what he did."

Talk about feeling STUPID! None of us got his info and he just faded into the background and went on his way without a word when Fire arrived...

This man deserved recognition for what he did and I failed to ask his name. To this day I am disappointed about it.

Sir: if you are out there and happen to read this: Well Done, and Thank You.


There are lots of ways to be of assistance to LE...

You know some people like to keep it that way... If I ever help in an accident or whatever, I wouldn't want my name to be known. I wouldn't do it for the fame or recognition, I would do it out of the kindness of my heart and leave without a word.

SwissFluCase
08-12-2009, 11:43 PM
I would help, *IF* my presence in the situation was desired, and *IF* I was going into a situation that I felt I could handle.

I respect police officers. That is my duty as a member of society.
I have a healthy distrust for law enforcement and government, even when I recognize that both are essential to preserving freedom. That is my duty as a citizen of The Republic.
I will help *ALL* those in real danger. That is my duty as a human on this dangerous planet of ours.

These concepts seem so simple and clear...

That said, I would rather leave quietly after helping and leave it at that. I did clear out a burning building once. Very little inconvenience to me, but I know it changed the outcome of the event.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

1SGMAT
08-13-2009, 6:22 AM
yes!

Purple K
09-19-2009, 10:48 PM
I will not hesitate to help any officer in need!!!

Sniper3142
09-21-2009, 5:17 PM
Has in all things...

The specific situation and details would dictate what I did or didn't do.

Francis Marion
09-26-2009, 2:09 AM
I'd help an officer in a fight if necessary. I think that seeing the situation, you'll evaluate whether it's proper to monitor, offer assistance, or jump in.

People should make a point of glancing over at an officer conducting a traffic stop just to make sure that everything looks right.

demnogis
09-26-2009, 12:55 PM
To the OP, I would assist a LEO in need. Especially if they asked for help. Isn't that the right thing to do? - Help people for ask for it?

They can even 12031(e) check my pistol afterwards, if they like.

inbox485
09-26-2009, 3:27 PM
I would (and have) assisted any stranger getting assaulted by gang-bangers. LEO status is not relevant.

bfoster
09-27-2009, 4:04 PM
We appreciate the help...there is always someone bigger and badder than even the most high speed of us. We don't appreciate being asked for directions in the middle of a traffic stop though. :rolleyes:

HalveNaught
10-14-2009, 2:25 PM
Yes I would and yes I have jumped to the aid of a cop once and citizens many many times. I fancy myself a modern day super hero :-)

But after reading through this, a question has arisen. I see LEO's and others condoning the use of baseball bats, tazers, and anything else tehy can get their hands on with no worry of repercussion, why becuase it is for a LEO?
"Depending on the circumstances, everything from pepper spray, taser, baseball bat, to a gun may be warranted and totally justified."

Yet at the same time in a personal self-defense situation, one can only use equal and reaonable force ( can't remember the exact wording right now)
to defend oneself.

In other words, if I ( a black belt) get jumped by some scumbags and beat their asses before they lay a hand on me (which has happened) I can be prosecuted for assault (which fortunately didnt happen because of the Nike defense). But if I see a guy sitting on a LEO punching him in the face I can grab the nearest, heaviest object and bash the guy in the head without fear of any repercussions?

Me thinkest me confused?!?! Can a LEO plese help clarify?

Ron-Solo
10-14-2009, 2:32 PM
Yes I would and yes I have jumped to the aid of a cop once and citizens many many times. I fancy myself a modern day super hero :-)

But after reading through this, a question has arisen. I see LEO's and others condoning the use of baseball bats, tazers, and anything else tehy can get their hands on with no worry of repercussion, why becuase it is for a LEO?
"Depending on the circumstances, everything from pepper spray, taser, baseball bat, to a gun may be warranted and totally justified."

Yet at the same time in a personal self-defense situation, one can only use equal and reaonable force ( can't remember the exact wording right now)
to defend oneself.

In other words, if I ( a black belt) get jumped by some scumbags and beat their asses before they lay a hand on me (which has happened) I can be prosecuted for assault (which fortunately didnt happen because of the Nike defense). But if I see a guy sitting on a LEO punching him in the face I can grab the nearest, heaviest object and bash the guy in the head without fear of any repercussions?

Me thinkest me confused?!?! Can a LEO plese help clarify?

Note the statement, "depending on the circumstances..." This dictates everything regarding the appropriate level of force. When you go from 'defending yourself' to being the 'agressor' in the situation, you cross the line and put yourself in a situation that can have complications.

This applies if you are helping a LEO or member of the general public. You have to look at what was reasonable for THAT situation. each one will be different.

Hope this clarifies it a little.

Ron

HalveNaught
10-14-2009, 2:51 PM
Note the statement, "depending on the circumstances..." This dictates everything regarding the appropriate level of force. When you go from 'defending yourself' to being the 'agressor' in the situation, you cross the line and put yourself in a situation that can have complications.

Ok, I can definitely see how crossing the line from defending to attacking can happen, but I guess what confuses me is what takes you across that line. A baseball bat to the temple can be fatal, and is hardly vague in crossing said line. But lets say that instead of a LEO who was getting pounded, it was joe q citizen and I happen to be walking home from a softball game and I crack some random guy up side the head. I assume the punishment would be different for me than if said victim were a LEO?

FYI-As I stated earlier, I train people in martial arts and these types of questions often come up, as far as defending themselves and use of force. I would much rather have accurate information to give students for everyones safety. I guess what thru me off was reading that the use of force could be much higher because it is a LEO who is in danger? MY normal response is to use only enought force equal to the threat, as that is what my understanding has always been.

Thanks Ron.

Shoot-it
10-14-2009, 3:06 PM
I helped the CHP with my shotgun they could not put down a hit beef cow. This young cop shot this cow with his ar-15 5 time before I was called out there. Shot place was to low on it's head he never hit the brain.

If any leo is in trouble and I am there I will help them out.

inbox485
10-14-2009, 3:18 PM
Ok, I can definitely see how crossing the line from defending to attacking can happen, but I guess what confuses me is what takes you across that line. A baseball bat to the temple can be fatal, and is hardly vague in crossing said line. But lets say that instead of a LEO who was getting pounded, it was joe q citizen and I happen to be walking home from a softball game and I crack some random guy up side the head. I assume the punishment would be different for me than if said victim were a LEO?

FYI-As I stated earlier, I train people in martial arts and these types of questions often come up, as far as defending themselves and use of force. I would much rather have accurate information to give students for everyones safety. I guess what thru me off was reading that the use of force could be much higher because it is a LEO who is in danger? MY normal response is to use only enought force equal to the threat, as that is what my understanding has always been.

Thanks Ron.

You will get more sympathy both from other LEO's and the public and a less motivated DA if you are defending a LEO than Joe the plumber, and that's life, but the laws don't change. If somebody nudges a cop and you take his head off with a bat, you're going to jail. If a cop is getting pummeled by a guy trying to take his gun, and you take his head off with a bat, you will probably discover you have a new group of drinking buddies.

masameet
10-14-2009, 8:03 PM
Ok, I can definitely see how crossing the line from defending to attacking can happen, but I guess what confuses me is what takes you across that line. A baseball bat to the temple can be fatal, and is hardly vague in crossing said line. But lets say that instead of a LEO who was getting pounded, it was joe q citizen and I happen to be walking home from a softball game and I crack some random guy up side the head. I assume the punishment would be different for me than if said victim were a LEO? ....

I think that line is called mayhem. Like in if you crack that guy upside the head more often than is necessary and after he has yielded.

Anyway for years now I've kept a 9 iron in the trunk of my car. Used to live close to San Francisco's Golden Gate Park and always thought if I ever caught some scumbag abusing another woman or child there, I'd stop to give him a few whacks or more. But fortunately the occasion never arose. The one thing I did not have in my car trunk all those years with that iron was a set of golf shoes. Now I do, because I found my old shoes in a long-forgotten box. From reading another forum and other cops' take on certain deadly weapons, what matters is intent. A bat carried without a baseball or glove, like a 9 iron without other irons, clubs, golf balls and shoes, is a weapon intended for assault.

Purple K
10-14-2009, 8:07 PM
I would not hesitate to help!

HalveNaught
10-15-2009, 2:25 PM
Masameet- Good tips! *note to self, take up golf.* :cool2:

Ricewatcher
10-16-2009, 11:32 AM
I would absolutely help without hesitation. Someone else in this thread mentioned hesitation, and they are correct. I have served in the armed forces and am still doing my part in the guard, so maybe my position is not that of a normal citizen who has never served or been involved with law enforcement.

For me, it doesn't stop with a LEO in distress, I would help anyone if I thought help was needed. I am fully aware of the subtleties and how fluid a conflict situation can be, and I am comfortable enough to trust my instinct in those situations. I'm not a 6'8" internet badass either, I'm just a normal guy. My help may not be enough but I couldn't live with myself if I knowingly let someone suffer because I failed to act.

Fire in the Hole
10-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Masameet- Good tips! *note to self, take up golf.* :cool2:

Reminds me of a friend of the family who used to be a cop in NY and they used to carry an extra knife to stick in the hands of someone they shot so they appeared armed. Yikes!!

Not really the most useful post to this thread is it?

Rob454
10-16-2009, 6:09 PM
If i was asked to help or saw the cop actually lose the fight ( bad guy has a hold of the gun etc) i would jump in but to simply jump in when the cop is trying to arrest is a bad idea cause you can get hurt by either that cop ( he could see you and think that you are going to help the perp ) so he shoves away pulls out his service weapon and pops rounds.

I would absolutely let my actions be known verbally before I even jumped in the fray. I guess I would help but only if the cop was completely losing the fight.

s&w5906
10-19-2009, 9:03 AM
I would help no matter what.. I have true respect for all officers in the field. I figure if they area out there protecting me, why can't I help when im needed..

SaberOne
10-19-2009, 9:34 AM
As a former LEO with the SDSO and OPD, yes I would assist if needed.
Regards,

HalveNaught
10-19-2009, 10:06 AM
Not really the most useful post to this thread is it?

Sorry, did not know that was taboo. Will keep everything sugar-coated in the future and refrain from any insights regarding crooked cops.

Again, sorry.:o

Fire in the Hole
10-19-2009, 11:54 AM
Sorry, did not know that was taboo. Will keep everything sugar-coated in the future and refrain from any insights regarding crooked cops.

Again, sorry.:o

That would be most appreciated. Thank you for understanding.

retired
10-19-2009, 11:59 AM
Sorry, did not know that was taboo. Will keep everything sugar-coated in the future and refrain from any insights regarding crooked cops.

Again, sorry.:o

I would suggest if you wish to be able to continue posting in this forum, you read or re-read the rules in the sticky.

Yes, you will refrain from any negative insights regarding leos in this particular forum or you will be banned. Clear.

And knock off the sarcasm.

HalveNaught
10-19-2009, 12:25 PM
I would suggest if you wish to be able to continue posting in this forum, you read or re-read the rules in the sticky.

Yes, you will refrain from any negative insights regarding leos in this particular forum or you will be banned. Clear.

And knock off the sarcasm.

Easy there big guy, I just apologized, and absolutely did NOT intend any sarcasm, I was simply implying that certain things obviously need to be filtered and dealt with delicately, hence the sugar-coating reference.

I am not sure which rule I broke, but I will go review them right now. I was simply adding to the conversation brought up by another regarding being deceptive in carrying a deadly weapon:

"From reading another forum and other cops' take on certain deadly weapons, what matters is intent. A bat carried without a baseball or glove, like a 9 iron without other irons, clubs, golf balls and shoes, is a weapon intended for assault. "

And if you reread the evil post in question, I was not condoning any such behavior, nor implying anything about cops, hence the yikes bit. Don't worry, I obviously do not belong in this area, and this will be my last post in the LEO section. I never meant any harm.

Good luck to you and farewell.

Steyrlp10
10-19-2009, 12:31 PM
I'd provide assistance in a heartbeat -- even if it's just to call it in to get more help . That officer is someone's loved one -- just like my guy when he was on patrol.

yzernie
10-19-2009, 12:42 PM
A bat carried without a baseball or glove, like a 9 iron without other irons, clubs, golf balls and shoes, is a weapon intended for assault.
Not sure how they are basing this conclusion but the mere possession of an item by itself ie: baseball bat, golf club or even a tire thumper does not constitute "a weapon intended for assault". There has to be other criteria met for it to fall under the deadly weapon law. Good luck proving that one.

mquejr
10-19-2009, 5:05 PM
i'd assist if needed

Super Spy
10-19-2009, 5:19 PM
I'd jump in and help. My best friend is in LE, I asked him about this, he said he's appreciate the help and thought most LEO's felt the same. Did say be careful when backup arrives so they don't think your a BG. I've helped bouncers toss drunks a few times, and busted up fights...

dark_ninja
10-22-2009, 9:48 PM
What if you had a concealed weapon and no CCW,and came in help of a LEO in such a situation... would you get hailed as a hero or busted? Or both?

inbox485
10-23-2009, 12:32 PM
What if you had a concealed weapon and no CCW,and came in help of a LEO in such a situation... would you get hailed as a hero or busted? Or both?

At the moment you would assisting in that manner, it would be lawful for you to have a loaded weapon (concealed or otherwise - there are exceptions for immediate threats and such). If the question of how you came about having the loaded weapon arises plead the 5th (you may have had it loaded and concealed, but then again you may have had it unloaded and locked in a container or in your trunk and were simply able to load up really quickly). I doubt the matter would be pursued with much zeal.

Edit: Better yet, follow the law so that you would be retrieving your gun in a legal manner, and if a media interview comes up you can grand stand about how the officers life was jeopardized by a ridiculous law preventing you from being able to render assistance sooner.

masameet
10-24-2009, 12:58 AM
Not sure how they are basing this conclusion but the mere possession of an item by itself ie: baseball bat, golf club or even a tire thumper does not constitute "a weapon intended for assault". There has to be other criteria met for it to fall under the deadly weapon law. Good luck proving that one.

Well, this is just something I gathered from reading what some LEOs on another forum posted. (And of course I might have misread as well as misremembered the story. But as I've read several actual cases in which men were stopped and arrested for carrying deadly weapons, and then their arrests were upheld by various courts of appeals, well, it's just info to me and being corrected is always of interest.) In this one instance the officer asked about current case law. He arrested a gang wannabe for carrying a small baseball bat. The guy had little bits of red in his clothing, like red shoelaces and maybe even a red baseball cap. This was late at night. For all intents and purposes, anyone could certainly deduce that the guy most likely was trolling for a victim to beat up.

The arrest became a moot point anyway, as the county DA refused to file any charges.

yzernie
10-24-2009, 7:09 AM
In this one instance the officer asked about current case law. He arrested a gang wannabe for carrying a small baseball bat. The guy had little bits of red in his clothing, like red shoelaces and maybe even a red baseball cap. This was late at night. For all intents and purposes, anyone could certainly deduce that the guy most likely was trolling for a victim to beat up.

The arrest became a moot point anyway, as the county DA refused to file any charges.
My point exactly!! Mere possession of the item does not warrant the arrest as other criteria must be met. The sad thing about the case you bring up is the thug probably did have it in his possession to use as a whippin stick. Unfortunately, the officer did not meet the necessary level of proof or if he/she did, it was not contained in the report submitted to the DA.

Veggie
10-24-2009, 5:06 PM
Yes sir. I would help. I am not one of those people who only see the bad in the police. I would be honored to help a officer in distress.

yelohamr
10-24-2009, 5:17 PM
I've assisted in the past and would do it again, even though I'm now a senior citizen. It would be worth the lumps to see the look on the bad guy's face when he realizes an old dude took him down.

Veggie
10-24-2009, 6:14 PM
Just be careful old timer.

BigJB
10-24-2009, 6:59 PM
When I was 21, I was a car salesman for South City Honda, south Sac. Franklin and 47th, some here may know what a pleasant neighborhood that is. The dealership had bullet holes in the glass, was a dead body in a rug across the street one morning.

On one particular fine summers day, I was out on the lot assisting an older lady with the purchase of a quality used Honda automobile. As I was going over the finer points of a cream puff 1996 Accord lx (with floor mats and mudguards) an old Chevelle came screaming out of the projects across the street. The car was occupied by two young Hispanic men who weren't about to stop for the three poilice cars giving chase. As the Chevelle oversteared onto Franklin, the driver over-corrected, went onto the sidewalk, clipped a young girl before smashing into the goodwill store. The passenger of the car got out and laid on the asphalt, the driver took off running in my direction. The nice older lady I was working with lost her composure for a moment, and yelled at me "My god somebody get that S.O.B!". And so I did. I was 6'2" 275 pounds of recent football playing stock at the time, still in decent shape, but when I went to hop the chain across the abandoned north entrance to the lot, my foot caught and I did a face plant into some nice hot gravel, this made me mad. The young Hispanic man took this opportunity to sprint past me as i was getting up, I was a good twenty strides behind him when he cleared an old cedar planked fence into someones back yard. I was running too fat to try to hop said fence, so I lowered my gravel speckled shoulder and smashed full speed into the fence, breaking the studs and knocking it into the startled man hiding behind it. The guy zig zagged in between cars in what appeared to be a small private wrecking yard, I hopped up on the cars and was after him, from hood to trunk to roofs, and grabbed his sagging drawers as he was attempting to clear another fence. I had a face full of his sweaty arse as I was yanking him off the fence, I could here him say "let go me homes, I'mo fugging shoot your arse", and then I saw a gun in his hand. I was still pretty hopped up on the gravel in my skin and adrenaline in my blood, so i gave him a mighty yank from the fence, he crashed into one of the clunkers behind me, dropping the gun on the other side of the fence. Just to be safe, I slammed his head into the chrome of whatever big old car he was laying against, and stood with my foot on him until one of Sacramentos finest arrived and said "That'll do son, we got him now."

I remember the hi-fives from the service guys as I stumbled to my car, and I remember ignoring the page I heard over the intercom, I was wanted in the sales office. I was so out of it I just went home. There was two messages on my machine when I got there, one from Sac county Sheriff's asking about a gun, if I saw it etc etc. The other message from my boss, saying that if I ever ran down a gangster again he would fire me.

For a few weeks after that, dudes in Homeboy cars would slow roll by the lot, making pistol finger gestures at the salesmen standing out front, they would all point to me "It was him, shoot him!" I miss those guys.

Great story, if your ever at South City Honda (Elk Grove Honda now) ask the fleet manager about the time The Biscuit ran down the gangster, he likes to tell that story almost as much as I do.

yelohamr
10-24-2009, 7:37 PM
Just be careful old timer.

I always am. I don't miss...very often. If you know any LA County deputies that were assigned to The Lynwood station in the '80's, ask them about the Marine who shot a perfect score on their combat range...twice.

dark45
10-27-2009, 2:25 AM
i would help anyone leo or not. why would you not help? i guess thats not really fair i am 6'3'' and built like a tank. so i guess for me there is no question for others maybe are excusable. i just think small or not another set of hands and 100 somthing plus pounds helping the leo couldn't hurt.

escon1
10-27-2009, 7:12 AM
Nevermind

inbox485
10-27-2009, 11:38 AM
i would help anyone leo or not. why would you not help? i guess thats not really fair i am 6'3'' and built like a tank. so i guess for me there is no question for others maybe are excusable. i just think small or not another set of hands and 100 somthing plus pounds helping the leo couldn't hurt.

Although not quite an answer to your question, when the two officers in Oakland were killed in the street in broad daylight, it was reported that there was a crowd cheering the gang banger and taunting the officers as they bleed out. I'll let you guess "why" these oxygen thieves didn't help the officers as they were dying.

N_S
10-30-2009, 8:37 AM
I would most certainly jump in unless it's a huge firefight or something.
I don't have a concealed carry permit, neither of my rifles would work hold their own in a firefight and it would take me a pretty long time to run home and get them. Running into a firefight unarmed is just plain foolish.

Untamed1972
10-30-2009, 1:28 PM
Yeah......I prolly would. And then I'd ask if I can put him as a reference on my CCW app, and if he'd put in a personal good word for me. :)

Roadrunner
11-07-2009, 3:19 PM
It's a noble thought to think that you would, but I'm not so sure I would in this politically correct, litigious society we live in today. I suppose the big question to consider is whether or not I would have the same umbrella over me that the cops have over them. If I did help and the bad guy sued, do I need to spend thousands of dollars to protect myself from his suit, or does the police department protect me from the bad guy. Is this even possible that the bad guy could sue me? Sacrifice is fine if it's just me, but what about my family? Am I sacrificing them as well if I jump in and help a cop? I understand that police can order a person to help them, so is it more prudent to go the other way before the cops get the chance? Don't get me wrong, I would gladly give my life for my family and friends, but getting into something and not knowing how much protection you have after the fact seems rather foolish. It's noble, it may even be altruistic, but wise, I'm not so sure.

akoba
11-07-2009, 6:36 PM
YES i will help. As my way of saying "thank you america for giving me a chance to become a legal resident on your land".

EOD3
11-07-2009, 7:33 PM
I'd help in any way I could. My cane is a great tool :)

Jonnyboy182
11-13-2009, 12:48 AM
Wow-what a great post, I enjoy when people who sit on the opposite ends of the fence can civilly discuss the issue. I have several members of my family that are current and previous NYPD/PA officers. One was a member of the JTTF in NYC. They have told me stories after stories of what has happened to them. They are all in good shape-and all pretty big guys, but when you're outnumbered or outmatched there isn't much you can do but try your best to stay alive.

I was told about a time where my family member (mike) was pulling a guy off the subway-he had been grabbing at the ladies. So mike goes in 29 years old 6'4 225lbs-and orders this obviously homeless, skinny guy off the train. The guy gets up and attacks mike. He said he never fought against anyone at that point in his career that didn't feel pain and had that kind of strength. He got his butt handed to him-it took 2 more officers to get him down, luckily they were in the station when he got taken down. Some citizens ran up to tell them that a PO was involved in a fight. This guy was high on PCP.

All that to say-you can't always judge a book by it's cover-sometimes what looks like an easy arrest turns into a fight for your life-so everyone who said different-you're insane :)

Finally on to the answer. Yes. Although I would ask the officer first and would be super careful.
We would like to think and believe that our laws are made to protect the innocent good guys-sometimes they are twisted to being the other way around. A CCW holder is arrested in NYC because she is flying through the airport and has her gun in her checked baggage. When she got off for the layover they made her take her checked baggage-which included her gun in its lockbox. The next morning as she tried to catch her flight she informed the TA of her gun as she always did-being locked and ready to travel- and shes arrested by NYPD for having an illegal gun in NYC. In CA we have unconstitutional gun laws and books written about the joke lawsuits people win everyday. (Yeah maybe if you WOULDN'T have kicked in my door my dog wouldn't have bit you!)

But to me a PO is just like me, a guy (or gal) who has a family and wants to get home at the end of their shift. I would hope no bad came out of it for me, but I would try to help.

Plinkin
11-13-2009, 1:18 AM
When I was 21, I was a car salesman for South City Honda, south Sac. Franklin and 47th, some here may know what a pleasant neighborhood that is. The dealership had bullet holes in the glass, was a dead body in a rug across the street one morning.

On one particular fine summers day, I was out on the lot assisting an older lady with the purchase of a quality used Honda automobile. As I was going over the finer points of a cream puff 1996 Accord lx (with floor mats and mudguards) an old Chevelle came screaming out of the projects across the street. The car was occupied by two young Hispanic men who weren't about to stop for the three poilice cars giving chase. As the Chevelle oversteared onto Franklin, the driver over-corrected, went onto the sidewalk, clipped a young girl before smashing into the goodwill store. The passenger of the car got out and laid on the asphalt, the driver took off running in my direction. The nice older lady I was working with lost her composure for a moment, and yelled at me "My god somebody get that S.O.B!". And so I did. I was 6'2" 275 pounds of recent football playing stock at the time, still in decent shape, but when I went to hop the chain across the abandoned north entrance to the lot, my foot caught and I did a face plant into some nice hot gravel, this made me mad. The young Hispanic man took this opportunity to sprint past me as i was getting up, I was a good twenty strides behind him when he cleared an old cedar planked fence into someones back yard. I was running too fat to try to hop said fence, so I lowered my gravel speckled shoulder and smashed full speed into the fence, breaking the studs and knocking it into the startled man hiding behind it. The guy zig zagged in between cars in what appeared to be a small private wrecking yard, I hopped up on the cars and was after him, from hood to trunk to roofs, and grabbed his sagging drawers as he was attempting to clear another fence. I had a face full of his sweaty arse as I was yanking him off the fence, I could here him say "let go me homes, I'mo fugging shoot your arse", and then I saw a gun in his hand. I was still pretty hopped up on the gravel in my skin and adrenaline in my blood, so i gave him a mighty yank from the fence, he crashed into one of the clunkers behind me, dropping the gun on the other side of the fence. Just to be safe, I slammed his head into the chrome of whatever big old car he was laying against, and stood with my foot on him until one of Sacramentos finest arrived and said "That'll do son, we got him now."

I remember the hi-fives from the service guys as I stumbled to my car, and I remember ignoring the page I heard over the intercom, I was wanted in the sales office. I was so out of it I just went home. There was two messages on my machine when I got there, one from Sac county Sheriff's asking about a gun, if I saw it etc etc. The other message from my boss, saying that if I ever ran down a gangster again he would fire me.

For a few weeks after that, dudes in Homeboy cars would slow roll by the lot, making pistol finger gestures at the salesmen standing out front, they would all point to me "It was him, shoot him!" I miss those guys.

Great story, if your ever at South City Honda (Elk Grove Honda now) ask the fleet manager about the time The Biscuit ran down the gangster, he likes to tell that story almost as much as I do.

:eek::eek::eek: yeah i know the area. i went to highlands high :eek: so not very far from there. good thing you got him. I dont miss living in that area one bit.

Plinkin
11-13-2009, 1:53 AM
Well, ive read about six pages of this and cant believe some people. I'd help anyone. I hope that the fear of the gun laws wont stop me from having my gun whenever i need it. But if i do have it, and need to use it i wont be thinking about getting sued. saving a life should come way before thinking about that. And not having a gun is no reason to walk away.

gdun
11-13-2009, 4:30 PM
When I was 21, I was a car salesman for South City Honda, south Sac. Franklin and 47th, some here may know what a pleasant neighborhood that is. The dealership had bullet holes in the glass, was a dead body in a rug across the street one morning.

On one particular fine summers day, I was out on the lot assisting an older lady with the purchase of a quality used Honda automobile. As I was going over the finer points of a cream puff 1996 Accord lx (with floor mats and mudguards) an old Chevelle came screaming out of the projects across the street. The car was occupied by two young Hispanic men who weren't about to stop for the three poilice cars giving chase. As the Chevelle oversteared onto Franklin, the driver over-corrected, went onto the sidewalk, clipped a young girl before smashing into the goodwill store. The passenger of the car got out and laid on the asphalt, the driver took off running in my direction. The nice older lady I was working with lost her composure for a moment, and yelled at me "My god somebody get that S.O.B!". And so I did. I was 6'2" 275 pounds of recent football playing stock at the time, still in decent shape, but when I went to hop the chain across the abandoned north entrance to the lot, my foot caught and I did a face plant into some nice hot gravel, this made me mad. The young Hispanic man took this opportunity to sprint past me as i was getting up, I was a good twenty strides behind him when he cleared an old cedar planked fence into someones back yard. I was running too fat to try to hop said fence, so I lowered my gravel speckled shoulder and smashed full speed into the fence, breaking the studs and knocking it into the startled man hiding behind it. The guy zig zagged in between cars in what appeared to be a small private wrecking yard, I hopped up on the cars and was after him, from hood to trunk to roofs, and grabbed his sagging drawers as he was attempting to clear another fence. I had a face full of his sweaty arse as I was yanking him off the fence, I could here him say "let go me homes, I'mo fugging shoot your arse", and then I saw a gun in his hand. I was still pretty hopped up on the gravel in my skin and adrenaline in my blood, so i gave him a mighty yank from the fence, he crashed into one of the clunkers behind me, dropping the gun on the other side of the fence. Just to be safe, I slammed his head into the chrome of whatever big old car he was laying against, and stood with my foot on him until one of Sacramentos finest arrived and said "That'll do son, we got him now."

I remember the hi-fives from the service guys as I stumbled to my car, and I remember ignoring the page I heard over the intercom, I was wanted in the sales office. I was so out of it I just went home. There was two messages on my machine when I got there, one from Sac county Sheriff's asking about a gun, if I saw it etc etc. The other message from my boss, saying that if I ever ran down a gangster again he would fire me.

For a few weeks after that, dudes in Homeboy cars would slow roll by the lot, making pistol finger gestures at the salesmen standing out front, they would all point to me "It was him, shoot him!" I miss those guys.

Great story, if your ever at South City Honda (Elk Grove Honda now) ask the fleet manager about the time The Biscuit ran down the gangster, he likes to tell that story almost as much as I do.

damn thats a cool story. I live just a few blocks from there in parkway

chuckles48
11-13-2009, 9:12 PM
I'm reminded of the time I got asked to Guido a pseudo-sister-in-law's NYE party in Burlingame. Party went well until, near midnight, a fight breaks out. Bouncer and I go after the big guy, wrestling him down to the floor, when this hand appears past my shoulder, and the guy disappears. I turn around, and there's 4 Burlingame PD sitting on the guy.

Love it when things work out. ;>

masameet
11-14-2009, 7:53 AM
Although not quite an answer to your question, when the two officers in Oakland were killed in the street in broad daylight, it was reported that there was a crowd cheering the gang banger and taunting the officers as they bleed out. I'll let you guess "why" these oxygen thieves didn't help the officers as they were dying.

And let's not forget that one man went to the aid of the downed OPD motor officers and started CPR on one of them. That man's actions did not save Officer John Hege's life, but it did allow his organs to survive and then be harvested hours later to improve the lives of several other people in the SF Bay Area.

One man's self-less action gave life to several others. Let us remember that!

At the OPD memorial for the fallen four, OPD Capt. Ed Tracey praised that citizen. As I recall, nearly every listener also applauded that man's actions too. That man -- an immigrant -- lived up to our nation's motto: E pluribus unum -- Out of many, one.

Turbinator
11-16-2009, 5:31 PM
damn thats a cool story. I live just a few blocks from there in parkway

+1 on an awesome good guy story!

Turby

run8
11-16-2009, 5:43 PM
I wouldn't hesitate helping out, so many in today's society just stand there and gaze, it's a pathetic world we live in that one would allow his fellow man to get injured and or killed w/o trying to help, whether or not you like the police. I know some folks don't like the police, so that would be there motivating factor for not helping, I just can't stand there and not do anything, and if it involved the use of any tools necessary than so be it.

run8
11-16-2009, 5:45 PM
And that same man was later receiving threats, what a terrible world we live in these days. Irregardless of ones skin color, whether or not they are LEO's, doesn't matter, he did the right thing and some in his community belittled him for his actions.

And let's not forget that one man went to the aid of the downed OPD motor officers and started CPR on one of them. That man's actions did not save Officer John Hege's life, but it did allow his organs to survive and then be harvested hours later to improve the lives of several other people in the SF Bay Area.

One man's self-less action gave life to several others. Let us remember that!

At the OPD memorial for the fallen four, OPD Capt. Ed Tracey praised that citizen. As I recall, nearly every listener also applauded that man's actions too. That man -- an immigrant -- lived up to our nation's motto: E pluribus unum -- Out of many, one.

five.five-six
11-16-2009, 5:46 PM
I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....

^that

not to mention... if the perp sues for injury's, the city will cover the cop, but I am afforded no such protection



I would still help out anyways

Denver
11-17-2009, 7:34 PM
In most cases I would jump in but it shure would help if I could CCW.

"A rifle behind every blade of grass" as someone reiterated on another post. We are all people and 9 out of 10 are good. The "1" carry concealed w/o a permit because they are the "1" and don't care.

If the "9" were all allowed their constitutional right to carry concealed or otherwise we would have a much safer society.

Bill Carson
11-24-2009, 3:55 AM
'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'

copperhead
11-24-2009, 2:25 PM
My father is a cop. I'd help out no question, they'd do the same for me.

blackrifle242
11-26-2009, 11:38 PM
It's sad when so many people are more worried about a lawsuit then the life of another person. I would help out as much as I could. If that meant performing that arm bar that I have been practicing on my 2 year old when she steals my candy, than so be it.

jd1911
11-27-2009, 12:02 AM
Man, my brother is a Sheriffs deputy and him and all his coworkers are great guys. If i saw him or any other law enforcement agent in need of help, i would do my best with whatever I had to assist them. I'm not superman,but if I can help I will do.

Seesm
11-27-2009, 1:30 AM
If needed YEAH I would help anyone. I would of course be careful to ensure I am actually helping him and not hindering him in anyway.

Careful when his backups roll in...

1xoutlaw
11-29-2009, 2:41 AM
why shouldnt we help? i know i would cuz when you need them, they come to help most of the time...:rolleyes:

dansgold
11-30-2009, 1:57 PM
It's one of those things. I come from an LE/Mil family, so it's probably instinct or something.

100% without a doubt I'd be in there assisting in any possible way that I could. I know I would, because I have.

MoBait
12-01-2009, 10:00 PM
i would rather end up in a hospital or dead trying to defend someone than getting in a car accident, falling off a ladder, breaking my arm off with an anchor, as well as almost any other thing.

novabrian
12-21-2009, 2:00 AM
I thought it was illegal to help.I would if I knew I wasn't going to get in an trouble.

kick Z tail out
12-22-2009, 7:14 AM
I thought it was illegal to help.I would if I knew I wasn't going to get in an trouble.
It wouldn't be in most cases, but there are a LOT of officers out there that act like they've got the world by the balls... so they give out the impression that your help is never needed or wanted.

I have academy training and believe it or not the nature of my job (I drive all night) has put me in a position to assist officers several times. Most have been grateful, but there were 2 officers in particular that acted like you were ruining their manhood by even thinking they could use your help as (what they think is) a know nothing citizen. It's attitudes like those guys have that put people off on LEOs.

choprzrul
12-22-2009, 7:45 AM
I've read through the first 10 pages of this thread and ran out of time to continue. Maybe this is brought up later in the thread, but what I see missing so far is the ideal that we are ALL responsible. As a citizen, I see it as my DUTY to help those in need. There is no "us and them" when it comes to police. There is only "us". I don't go running around trying to be the police or go looking for bad stuff happening, but I refuse to shy away from it when I find it. We all need to take responsibility as citizens to keep our communities safe. If that means that I have to tackle a BG to help LE, then that is what I will do. I will make sure the LEO is indeed in need of help first, but choke him out I will. I really feel that this is one of the better reasons for a citizen CCW. If all of the BG knew that a dozen armed citizens would always come to the assistance of LE, how many would even be willing to start something? I guess that what I am saying is that I see it as my civic duty to always be ready to help when help is needed.

Datdarkness
12-25-2009, 9:58 PM
ive read through all of the pages...one by one... and it was GREAT

I would definatly help out anyone if they were in trouble, especially LEO's.

the only thing is, would i get in trouble because im a minor???
than again, that can always be sorted out after :D