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View Full Version : VIRGINIA OPEN CARRIER ENGAGES ARMED ROBBER AND SAVES INNOCENT LIVES, 1 BAD GUY KIA


Liberty1
07-18-2009, 5:18 AM
...with a replica single action 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel (http://arms2armor.com/store/product397.html)no less!!!!!!!!!!:eek:


http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/28633.html

From today's VA-ALERT:

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------
VCDL's meeting schedule: http://www.vcdl.org/meetings.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
2. Abingdon working to fix ordinance banning guns on Virginia Creeper
Trail
3. Attorney General Bill Mims signs amicus brief supporting the
incorporation of the Second Amendment
4. Herndon now says that gun owners are welcome after ejecting an
open carry from the Herndon Festival in June
5. Loudoun playing games with self-defense rights
6. Second Amendment March table at Salem gun show this weekend

************************************************** **************************
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
************************************************** **************************

On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.

PatriotnMore
07-18-2009, 5:46 AM
Thank God this guy was armed. Another story to remind us how important it is for us to take responsibility for our own protection, and the lives of our loved ones.

Thanks to the POS robbing the place, someones husband, father, ect.. won't go home that night. Even after being mortally wounded, the owner was making sure others were OK.

Equal protection for all needs to be made law in this State, and every State.

Paladin
07-18-2009, 6:06 AM
Thanks for posting the details, esp the info garnered from video. I'd LOVE to see that video posted on YouTube/similar to see it all, incl the H2H fight. Missing info is approx. height and weight of both GO/GG and BG.

Other points: (1) Don't issue a "challenge" for BG to drop his gun. That unnecessarily wastes precious time and draws the BG's attention to you before your shots do.

(2) Shoot to the ground.

(3) Practice position shooting, incl from "improvised" positions w/either hand.

(4) Best to carry a knife/knives in case your gun runs dry, jams, etc. and be trained in its use.

(5) Best to stay in shape and know some H2H.

(6) Consider a J-frame BUG (back-up gun).

Anyway, I always like a story w/a happy ending (BG dead!).

ybz
07-18-2009, 6:50 AM
i guess the gun owner's gun wouldn't pass the california 'drop' test...

1JimMarch
07-18-2009, 6:51 AM
You forgot lesson 7:

STYLE POINTS, BAYBEEE!

:)

1875 Remmie clone. With a 7.5" tube. And he had to fan it and THEN beat the sumbich upside the head with it. Despite the broken trigger, he hits three times out of four. Daaaaaayum.

Well Sarah Brady and company said guns would cause "the wild west" to break out :D. Cool.

My daily CCW in Tucson AZ:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/3630584151_db71ea1b65.jpg?v=0

1JimMarch
07-18-2009, 6:55 AM
As to a "drop test": the Remmie is a weird one in that the cylinder has notches to lower the hammer between rounds, a system revived by North American Arms for their minirevolvers.

In Cali, guns like that Remmie are exempt from safety testing when they're at least 7.5" or longer (total length, not barrel length). Since the NAAs are too small, they were tested AND PASSED. No reason to think the Remmie they're a micro copy of wouldn't pass as well.

Mine would, as it's a Ruger New Vaquero with transfer bar ignition.

socal2310
07-18-2009, 8:08 AM
Thanks to the POS robbing the place, someones husband, father, ect.. won't go home that night. Even after being mortally wounded, the owner was making sure others were OK.

The owner wasn't mortally wounded. In fact, he was back to work by the time the article author visited the store.

Ryan

scrat
07-18-2009, 2:58 PM
excellent story i too would love to see the video

Liberty1
07-18-2009, 9:03 PM
http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/SHOT121_20090711-230802/279571/

Two shot in South Richmond store

By Reed Williams

Published: July 12, 2009

A gunman who had wounded a shopkeeper and opened fire on several customers was stopped yesterday when another man shot him at the store in South Richmond, authorities said.

The violent attempted robbery took place shortly after 1 p.m. at the Golden Food Market at 2701 Jefferson Davis Highway, the same store where another man was shot last month -- and only three blocks from the scene of another robbery in June that left a shopkeeper dead.

Owners of as many as a dozen Jefferson Davis-area businesses flocked to the scene of the shooting, and many were rattled by such a brazen daylight attack, said Councilwoman Reva Trammell, whose 8th District includes the Jefferson Davis corridor.

Trammell, who arrived outside the store shortly after yesterday's shootings, described a frenzied scene. One man told Trammell that the man who had shot the robber was a guardian angel.

"Whoever did it probably saved their lives in there," Trammell said of the shooter.

Police did not identify anyone involved in yesterday's shootings.

The man who shot the robber is a friend of the store owner, and he was wearing a holster with a Western-style revolver, said Managing Deputy Commonwealth's Attorney Tracy Thorne-Begland.

After the suspect shot the store owner and opened fire on patrons, the owner's friend shot the suspect once in the torso, took his gun and called police, Thorne-Begland said.

Thorne-Begland said it appeared that the shooting of the suspect was justified, although he emphasized that the investigation was in the early stages.

Police said they expect to file charges against the suspect.

The store owner's injuries did not appear life-threatening, authorities said, but the gunman's injuries were said to be life-threatening. No one else was hurt.

Anthony Gregory, who lives near Golden Food, said he was in the store about 15 minutes before the shootings, and that while he was there, he saw a man with a baby making a purchase.

Gregory said the owner told the baby, "Welcome to the world. This is a dangerous world, so be careful. But don't worry, God will protect you."

Police Cmdr. Steve Drew said officers had been patrolling up and down Jefferson Davis yesterday and recently have bolstered their presence in the area. He said it was unusual for a commercial robbery to happen so early in the day.

The previous shooting at Golden Food took place late the night of June 12. And three nights earlier, a co-owner of the Come and Go Food Market, which is about three blocks north of Golden Food on Jefferson Davis, was shot and killed in a robbery.

Authorities said it was too early to know whether any of the three shootings on Jefferson Davis are connected.

A few hours after yesterday's shootings, Said "Sam" Messaf, the man who was shot June 12 at Golden Food, was at the store to help another man shut down the market.

Messaf described how he had been helping out at the store June 12 when two robbers came inside. One man opened fire, reaching over the counter and shooting as Messaf cowered behind it, he said. Messaf was shot six times in his legs.

He said he suffered nerve damage in his left leg and has trouble sleeping.

Trammell said residents and business owners were scared by the recent violence but have faith that police are doing their best to stop it.

"I'm still shook up," Trammell said. "I'm not afraid, but we've worked so hard on Jefferson Davis -- so hard in that area to bring crime down."

ojisan
07-18-2009, 9:17 PM
A 1875 revolver beats a 2009 cell phone call to 911.
A 1875 revolver is a better club than a 2009 cell phone, too.
Just an observation.
:)

N6ATF
07-19-2009, 12:43 AM
#$^#$^*@%!

Freaking AWESOME.

And why I'd OC a freaking katana with my revolver.

"Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left! What are you gonna do, bleed on me?"

Mulay El Raisuli
07-19-2009, 5:38 AM
#$^#$^*@%!

Freaking AWESOME.

And why I'd OC a freaking katana with my revolver.

"Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left! What are you gonna do, bleed on me?"



But that's "only a flesh wound!"

The Raisuli

Aleksei Vasiliev
07-19-2009, 5:57 AM
Good stuff.

I'll co-opt this thread for a second to give shout-outs to Deric Hoffman, a friend of a guy on the other gun forum I post on.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2559811 (Story, not gun forum)
He was shot 13 times with a .40 while he protected an 11-year-old with his body. He was trying to get to his gun that he stores in his car. Two ended up dying, one man and the shooter who killed himself.

Moral of the story: Carry your gun, don't store it in your car.

trashman
07-19-2009, 9:40 AM
Single-action FTW! Great story.

--Neill

N6ATF
07-19-2009, 11:15 AM
Good stuff.

I'll co-opt this thread for a second to give shout-outs to Deric Hoffman, a friend of a guy on the other gun forum I post on.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2559811 (Story, not gun forum)
He was shot 13 times with a .40 while he protected an 11-year-old with his body. He was trying to get to his gun that he stores in his car. Two ended up dying, one man and the shooter who killed himself.

Moral of the story: Carry your gun, don't store it in your car.

Holy...

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/theycallmethrashmetalhead/juggernaut.jpg

AJAX22
07-19-2009, 11:37 AM
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/134182000/134182431/pix2933173062.jpg

Old school pimpin

Greg-Dawg
07-19-2009, 11:42 AM
Please forward this article to everyone especially our politicians.

1JimMarch
07-19-2009, 1:00 PM
Yeah, that's our baby. One of the higher-end Uberti variants pictured there, fairly late model I believe from the box. That's likely to be about as good as you can get in this design.

Note how the cylinder frame and the grip frame are all the same piece of metal, not like a Colt. The triggerguard is a fairly small piece that bolts in underneath with two screws. A lot were made of brass, and I can see how manufacturers might not consider it a "strength critical" part like they would if it was part of the grip frame as in the Colt SAA design.

So I remain convinced that this guy's triggerguard either collapsed and broke or got so mangled the trigger couldn't operate properly, likely a failure to reset.

Yet the gun still kept running well enough...

Liberty1
07-19-2009, 6:31 PM
1st OCDO thread with links to news coverage:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/28379-2.html

vandal
07-19-2009, 11:01 PM
The SAA adds is great for PR, that's the only kind thing I can say about his hardware choice. Resourcefulness and luck FTW here.

woodsman
07-20-2009, 8:25 AM
The SAA beats having nothing. Reminds me when I was a kid traveling in Texas with my dad. Revolvers in holsters were very common.

Paladin
07-20-2009, 9:51 AM
You forgot lesson 7:

STYLE POINTS, BAYBEEE!

:)

1875 Remmie clone. With a 7.5" tube. And he had to fan it and THEN beat the sumbich upside the head with it. Despite the broken trigger, he hits three times out of four. Daaaaaayum.

Well Sarah Brady and company said guns would cause "the wild west" to break out :D. Cool.I am especially ashamed I missed lesson #7 given what I changed my avatar to last year after Heller. :o

KylaGWolf
07-20-2009, 1:38 PM
Wonder if we can get 20/20 to state a retraction on having a gun is never going to save a life?

doc1buc
07-20-2009, 1:45 PM
Wonder if we can get 20/20 to state a retraction on having a gun is never going to save a life?
To the MODS, KES, or legal eagles-
Is there a way that the CG foundation can utilize this for our fight here in California? Is there a way to catalog or start a thread dedicated to instances like this where a firearm was used appropriately? I can think of three instances right now in my head on individual threads, merged in a thread or database might add weight to a legal debate later. What do you think?

1JimMarch
07-20-2009, 2:01 PM
UPDATE!!!

The police HAVE interviewed the good guy and are apparently sitting on his gun as evidence for the moment.

He just gave an interview with the paper to the same reporter that has seen the store's videotapes. The paper isn't releasing the guy's name, thank God.

In the interview he gives a detail not present in the VCDL account: once the goblin ran his gun dry (also a revolver) and clicked it a couple of times, the good guy stopped firing. THAT'S why he still had at least one round left (four shots fired). The goblin approached the counter area, wrestled with the good guy, tried to grab that Remmie, good guy retains control over it and beats the goblin upside the head - goblin tries to leave, collapses at the door.

It's apparently that period where the goblin is up and moving with a dry gun that the other people in the store urged some more action from that Remmie. And really, it would likely have been ruled justified under those circumstances if he had. Even a dry gun is an effective bludgeon and we know the goblin had murderous intent.

The key point here is that the good guy CHOSE not to keep firing. If the goblin had a speedloader and knew how to use it, he'd have been screwed but really, with this type of predator that's pretty unlikely and in any case he would have heard the "tinkle sound" of rounds dropping if the goblin had begun a reload.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MART19_20090718-223008/280885/

So the Remmie didn't fail to fire, the good guy held fire. This to me absolutely seals the deal as far as this guy not getting charged. And while not totally tactically sound, holding fire once the goblin ran dry will likely help at least some with the post-shooting guilt syndrome...he was absolutely in the right the whole way and nobody will ever question that 'cept maybe the goblin's kin.

KylaGWolf
07-20-2009, 2:14 PM
Jim your link didn't work. I came up with page not found error.

1JimMarch
07-20-2009, 2:21 PM
Try this one:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MART191_20090718-234801/280934/

N6ATF
07-20-2009, 2:22 PM
UPDATE!!!

The police HAVE interviewed the good guy and are apparently sitting on his gun as evidence for the moment.

He just gave an interview with the paper to the same reporter that has seen the store's videotapes. The paper isn't releasing the guy's name, thank God.

In the interview he gives a detail not present in the VCDL account: once the goblin ran his gun dry (also a revolver) and clicked it a couple of times, the good guy stopped firing. THAT'S why he still had at least one round left (four shots fired). The goblin approached the counter area, wrestled with the good guy, tried to grab that Remmie, good guy retains control over it and beats the goblin upside the head - goblin tries to leave, collapses at the door.

It's apparently that period where the goblin is up and moving with a dry gun that the other people in the store urged some more action from that Remmie. And really, it would likely have been ruled justified under those circumstances if he had. Even a dry gun is an effective bludgeon and we know the goblin had murderous intent.

The key point here is that the good guy CHOSE not to keep firing. If the goblin had a speedloader and knew how to use it, he'd have been screwed but really, with this type of predator that's pretty unlikely and in any case he would have heard the "tinkle sound" of rounds dropping if the goblin had begun a reload.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MART19_20090718-223008/280885/

So the Remmie didn't fail to fire, the good guy held fire. This to me absolutely seals the deal as far as this guy not getting charged. And while not totally tactically sound, holding fire once the goblin ran dry will likely help at least some with the post-shooting guilt syndrome...he was absolutely in the right the whole way and nobody will ever question that 'cept maybe the goblin's kin.

Basically a coup de grāce, had he used the final round for a headshot.

1JimMarch
07-20-2009, 2:42 PM
Basically a coup de grāce, had he used the final round for a headshot.

No, not if he'd shot the guy while he was up and moving and able to get in a wrestling match! At that point you have an active murderer armed with a blunt instrument (his gun) and yeah, in most states (including Cali!) you could shoot him at that point.

Once he collapsed, no.

N6ATF
07-20-2009, 2:49 PM
No, not if he'd shot the guy while he was up and moving and able to get in a wrestling match! At that point you have an active murderer armed with a blunt instrument (his gun) and yeah, in most states (including Cali!) you could shoot him at that point.

Once he collapsed, no.

Doubtful he could get an instantly fatal headshot in a wrestling match, therefore the coup would have been when he collapsed.

Liberty1
07-20-2009, 5:13 PM
To the MODS, KES, or legal eagles-
Is there a way that the CG foundation can utilize this for our fight here in California? Is there a way to catalog or start a thread dedicated to instances like this where a firearm was used appropriately? I can think of three instances right now in my head on individual threads, merged in a thread or database might add weight to a legal debate later. What do you think?

Is this what your looking for? http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/NV.html

But any list like this is not generally useful (no matter how convincing) in a pure constitutional argument.

M198
07-20-2009, 7:25 PM
But that's "only a flesh wound!"

The Raisuli

"Come here! I'll bite you in the shins!"

doc1buc
07-21-2009, 12:51 PM
Is this what your looking for? http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/NV.html

But any list like this is not generally useful (no matter how convincing) in a pure constitutional argument.
Thanks for the link, it's now bookmarked.