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View Full Version : AR 15's on the street-Any LEO can respond, please


Calif Mini
07-17-2009, 6:57 PM
Just trying to stay on the right side of the law.

What is the current feelings and information given to officers about the AW's and how you are instructed to proceed when someone comes in contact with a citizen with an AR-15 with or without a fixed magazine? Like when it is being legally transported not an adversarial situation.

Same question about "Bullet Buttons" or other mag locks. Is the consensus they are OK or what is the info or direction given in the briefing room or around the station on a daily basis?

I hope this doesn't sound lame as it is important to me to know the correct thing in regards to AR-15's.

Thanks for the help and for what you do in a normal days work.

Ed

jimmiya
07-17-2009, 7:18 PM
I'm interested as well.

Sicmaro
07-17-2009, 7:33 PM
I'm putting a briefing together to better inform my shift. But best thing is to have a short 10 round with a bullet button. Not a 10/30 or 10/20 but a straight 10. just for safety. But biggest thing, don't give us any reason to pull you over and you should be good if your AR is legit.

SoCalDep
07-17-2009, 7:52 PM
I have a U15 equipped AR, one of my partners has a BB AR, and I just sold my Lt my extra stripped lower. I know of several other deps/sgts who either have or are planning to purchase OLL's.

I'd say )at my station) expect to have your weapon inspected and maybe a delay while the guy talks to those in the "know", but I severely doubt you'd have any significant trouble.

CSACANNONEER
07-17-2009, 7:58 PM
I bet that most, if not all, LEOs on this forum are fine with legally configured firearms. I'm more worried about the know-it-all LEOs who are anti-gun and their entire training consists of the old DOJ AW booklet.

Ron-Solo
07-17-2009, 8:59 PM
I bet that most, if not all, LEOs on this forum are fine with legally configured firearms. I'm more worried about the know-it-all LEOs who are anti-gun and their entire training consists of the old DOJ AW booklet.

Us too.......:43:

Jonathan Doe
07-17-2009, 10:23 PM
I have seen enough OLLs with Prince 50 with screws removed, OLLs with regular magazine release. My office recently received OLLs with 7" barrel and regular magazine release and collapsable stock for examination. I see those AW on a fairly regular basis, but haven't seen any OLLs with bullet buttons. That shows the street cops know their stuffs regarding AW.

alex00
07-17-2009, 11:21 PM
I have zero problems with legally configured firearms. I own several OLLs, and know many people on my department do as well. I'm pretty sure that during normal staffing there are several Deputies that own OLLs working. I am confidant that if a patrol Deputy runs across an OLL on the street, there will be at least a few people working that know the legality.

556fmj
07-17-2009, 11:30 PM
I know enough about the OLL topic that I have no problem with helping fellow officers with it if encountered on the street. Problem is not all of my partners are gun savvy especially on the off list lower AR style rifles. But to echo Sicmaro, get the short 10rd mags on it. From a quick glance no Law Enforcment Officer can tell if it is a fixed up 10/30 mag or a high capacity 30 rounder.

And yes, I have a few friends who are also LEOs who have OLL AR rifles.

till44
07-18-2009, 9:40 AM
We have had training sessions on several different shifts about OLL in my department. Myself and another officer brought in several CA compliant ARs as well as a few Reg AW and explained the differences. For the most part I'd say that 65% of the department is at least familiar with the fact that anyone can own an AR type rifle in CA, as long as its configured correctly. In my experience AR are seldom encountered by LEO, especially when owned by law abiding citizens.

Calif Mini
07-18-2009, 5:33 PM
Thanks to all LEO's who took the time to respond.

I understand that if not in the wrong place at the wrong time or doing something he shouldn't, a law abiding citizen shouldn't have a problem.

I do not yet own an AR but intend to start gathering pieces for a build soon. I have actually made my own bullet button and a bench block that fits in place of the magazine to hold in a vise and several other sight tools and a bullet button installation spanner tool. etc.

I was at a local range recently and noticed three or four young men with several AR's and many other rifles and handguns having a fun day and I asked what line of work they were in to allow a midweek trip to the Livermore range...............Turns out they were all LEO's from different departments enjoying their day off.

I am encouraged there sounds to be a better understanding by LEO's than I expected but I guess that is just another part of their job.

Please keep up the good work and stay safe.

Thanks again, Ed

Eargasm
07-21-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm putting a briefing together to better inform my shift. But best thing is to have a short 10 round with a bullet button. Not a 10/30 or 10/20 but a straight 10. just for safety. But biggest thing, don't give us any reason to pull you over and you should be good if your AR is legit.

If you're transporting your rifle in an automobile and the rifle's in a case, is it best to keep the bolt open?

Calif Mini
07-22-2009, 3:23 PM
I store and transport mine in a case that has a functional lock and with ammo not in any magazines or near the weapon. I keep the bolt in the closed position as there is no restriction that I no of having to do with this. I believe the springs will last longer if stored in the relaxed position. Same with magazine springs. May not be much different, but the cost is zero and it makes me feel better.

Ed

Ron-Solo
07-22-2009, 4:54 PM
I store and transport mine in a case that has a functional lock and with ammo not in any magazines or near the weapon. I keep the bolt in the closed position as there is no restriction that I no of having to do with this. I believe the springs will last longer if stored in the relaxed position. Same with magazine springs. May not be much different, but the cost is zero and it makes me feel better.

Ed

Good advice and easy to do.

Jonathan Doe
07-22-2009, 5:11 PM
I'm putting a briefing together to better inform my shift. But best thing is to have a short 10 round with a bullet button. Not a 10/30 or 10/20 but a straight 10. just for safety. But biggest thing, don't give us any reason to pull you over and you should be good if your AR is legit.

When you have 10/20 or 10/30 magazines, make sure it takes only 10 rounds. Some magazines can take 11 rounds and function. In strict sense of the law, it is illegal. Although I don't agree with it, I will have to report as such. Do I personally see it as illegal? Probably not if there was a block in the mag. I have seen SKS rifles taking 11 rounds and functions properly. But, as long as I don't see a modification in the magazine, I am okay with it. My personal magazines take only 9 rounds to be on the safe side.

masameet
07-22-2009, 6:03 PM
On a side note since last night I've been reading Sonny Barger's autobiography, "Hell's Angel." In June 1968, he wrote, the federal government raided his Oakland home and confiscated his AR-15, "the hottest rifle on the market, a real collector's item." After seeing his rifle, he claimed, the Oakland Police Dept. allegedly bought 25 AR-15s for its arsenal.

So any chance that OPD was the first California LE agency to have AR-15s?

Jonathan Doe
07-22-2009, 6:16 PM
LASD had Colt AR-15's for as long as I can remember.

retired
07-22-2009, 6:38 PM
That would probably take some research by an active member here. I believe they had them when I hired on in 1976.

Ron-Solo
07-22-2009, 8:24 PM
I can remember LASD mountain cars carrying Winchester 94's in .30-30 around 1973. Not sure when we switched to AR-15s. I was first trained on the AR in about 1979 while working MCJ.

6172crew
07-23-2009, 6:49 AM
The LASD AR15s I saw were M16s that had the sear hole reamed out. Rumor has it the ANG gave them up for use. They were A1s 1/12 twist, and have since been upgraded to A3 status using the same barrel and have EOTechs.

The shotguns were Ithicas and were just about garbage. They had missing parts and looked like they had been used to dig ditches with. I understand they have upgraded those as well.

retired
07-23-2009, 1:11 PM
The LASD AR15s I saw were M16s that had the sear hole reamed out. Rumor has it the ANG gave them up for use. They were A1s 1/12 twist, and have since been upgraded to A3 status using the same barrel and have EOTechs.

The shotguns were Ithicas and were just about garbage. They had missing parts and looked like they had been used to dig ditches with. I understand they have upgraded those as well.

We had Ithacas when I hired on in 1976 and I don't how long before that. That gives you an inclination as to what condition they are in now. The dept. will be transitioning to a Remington 870 Custom over a 3yr. period.

Those Ithacas that have legal size barrels will be available for active and retired personnel to purchase. The people I've spoken to said a price hasn't been set as of yet and they will not be checked and fixed prior to selling. I was told it would be something like 50 or so would be available each time. What you buy is what you get. If it doesn't function properly there are no returns.

I'm hoping to buy one that works of course. That way I'll have my duty revolver, my duty 92f and a duty Ithaca to complete the collection. Sort of a sentimental thing.:) I already have an Ithaca I bought in 1976, to become familiar with since we had to go on rides in the academy and you best know how to break that thing down!

I was told the transition would take until about 2011 or 2012 once they begin.

PistolCrockett
07-23-2009, 1:21 PM
Great stuff guys and Gals....Yet another reason why I really enjoy Calguns..Thanks to all!

PistolCrockett
07-24-2009, 2:30 PM
On a side note since last night I've been reading Sonny Barger's autobiography, "Hell's Angel." In June 1968, he wrote, the federal government raided his Oakland home and confiscated his AR-15, "the hottest rifle on the market, a real collector's item." After seeing his rifle, he claimed, the Oakland Police Dept. allegedly bought 25 AR-15s for its arsenal.

So any chance that OPD was the first California LE agency to have AR-15s?

Here's good read on the subject.....

By Jim Kavanagh
CNN

When James Huberty walked into a McDonald's restaurant 25 years ago this month, he knew he was going to kill somebody. He probably didn't know his murderous rampage would change how police departments work.


First responders carry a shooting victim to an ambulance; 21 people were killed and 19 were wounded.
3 of 3 At 3:40 p.m. on July 18, 1984, Huberty carried a long-barreled Uzi semiautomatic rifle, a pump-action shotgun and a handgun into a McDonald's in San Ysidro, an enclave of San Diego, California.

Witnesses said the unemployed welder and security guard started shooting immediately, and kept on shooting for 77 minutes until a police sniper on a nearby rooftop ended the siege with a bullet through Huberty's heart.

When the carnage ended, Huberty and 21 victims -- including grandmothers, an infant, children on bicycles and teenage McDonald's employees -- lay dead inside and outside the restaurant. Nineteen others were wounded.

San Diego police Capt. Miguel Rosario, a patrol officer back then, was the first cop on the scene, believing he was responding to a single accidental shooting.

Carrying a standard-issue .38-caliber revolver with six bullets, the Marine Corps veteran was in for the fight of his life against a much-better-armed opponent.

"Talk about feeling inadequate," Rosario said. "He's got an Uzi, I've got a .38, and I'm thinking it's a robbery gone bad and his buddies are going to encircle me."

Rosario would later play a key role in beefing up officers' weaponry and training to stop violent criminals.

When Rosario arrived at the McDonald's, he saw people hiding behind cars in the lot. He didn't know what was going on, but "I got that little sick feeling in the pit of my stomach," he said. Watch the chaos outside the McDonald's

He looked up to see a man -- Huberty -- open a side door of the restaurant, the Uzi across his chest. The two men eyed each other, and then Huberty moved aggressively. The SWAT-trained officer ducked behind a parked pickup truck, "and he started opening up on me," Rosario said.

He was badly outgunned and knew it. Worse, he believed he had more than one adversary.

"I wouldn't have minded taking him on one-on-one," Rosario said in his transplanted South Bronx accent. "But if he had buddies in there and they had shoulder arms, I would have been in a world of hurt."

Huberty fired about 30 armor-piercing rounds at the officer, who could hear them striking metal posts and skipping off the asphalt.

From behind the truck, Rosario radioed in a Code 10 -- "send SWAT" -- and seconds later a Code 11 -- "send everybody."

San Diego's SWAT team then consisted of patrol officers with extra training who carried their special equipment in their squad cars, Rosario said.

Huberty retreated inside as other police units arrived. Rosario ran back to his car to retrieve his Ruger Mini-14 military-style rifle. Two patrol officers fired shotguns to cover Rosario while he took up position. But he couldn't get a clear shot.

Reporter Monica Zech had a bird's-eye view of the scene. She was giving traffic reports from a small airplane for local TV and radio stations.

"I looked down and could see that there was people ducking for cover, and there was a fire truck there with everybody behind it," she recalled. She saw two boys lying on the ground, tangled in their bicycles after being shot by Huberty, and people hiding behind the low walls of the restaurant's playground.

Circling at 3,000 feet, Zech alerted authorities to close nearby Interstate 5 and the Tijuana border crossing a few blocks away because drivers were heading straight into the line of fire.

The bright sunshine and the eatery's smoked windows made it hard for police to see inside, but eventually Chuck Foster, a police sniper on the post office roof next door, got a clear view of Huberty near the counter. Foster dropped him with a single shot through a glass door.

The battle was over, but the lessons were just beginning.

Police clearly needed more firepower and a new strategy, Rosario said.

"The time had come where you had to have a full-time, committed and dedicated, highly trained, well-equipped team ... that were committed to shooting, being in shape and being able to respond rapidly anywhere in the city," he said.

"We didn't have what we have now," Rosario said. "We have a special response team -- hostage rescue -- very elite, well-trained. It's an elite team within SWAT. We have access to helicopters now and all of that kind of stuff. We didn't have none of that back then."

After San Ysidro, the department created a dedicated unit that trains continuously and uses much more formidable weapons and tactics.

"We became pretty much special forces specialists, if you will," he said.

Police departments nationwide soon realized their own need for tactical specialists.

The San Ysidro massacre seemed to introduce a "cluster" of mass shootings in the '80s and early '90s, said James Alan Fox, a Northeastern University professor and author of six books on mass murder. These included post office rampages in Oklahoma, New Jersey and Michigan, and culminated with the Luby's restaurant slaughter in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, in which 23 people were killed.

Michael T. Rayburn, an independent police firearms trainer in Saratoga Springs, New York, said the San Ysidro incident and others -- including gangland battles of the 1920s and more recent episodes like the infamous North Hollywood bank shootout in 1997 and the Columbine school massacre in 1999 -- force police to keep developing new weapons and tactics.

"As police officers, we don't have wind tunnels or expensive laboratories. We've learned, unfortunately, out on the street, and we pay for it in blood and sometimes our lives," he said.

After the McDonald's massacre, other cities sought advice from San Diego on how to develop tactical teams. Now, such elite units are part of most larger departments across the country.

Another change after San Ysidro is how departments handle officers who have been involved in traumatic incidents. For the first time, San Diego debriefed all involved officers and provided professional counseling for those who needed it. Now, it is common practice.

"We saw the benefit and the need for that," Rosario said, though in 1984 he blew off steam in Las Vegas for two days in lieu of counseling.


Many departments still fall short, but awareness of the need for psychological services is much greater now than in the '80s, said Lynn Winstead Mabe, a police counselor and consultant in Grapevine, Texas.

"I truly think they're beginning to care about the psyche of their people," she said

WeekendWarrior
07-28-2009, 2:28 PM
For the 10/20, 10/30 round mags, could you just ask LEO to push the follower down with his pen to see that it is blocked off? What about keeping 11 dummy rounds with your OLL so they can try loading that 11th round?

BigJim_610
07-29-2009, 12:50 PM
For the 10/20, 10/30 round mags, could you just ask LEO to push the follower down with his pen to see that it is blocked off? What about keeping 11 dummy rounds with your OLL so they can try loading that 11th round?


I know someone who legally purchased an AR type .223 in CA and registered it with Bill Lockyer etc. He also purchased magazines that hold more than ten rounds. I thought that if everything was legally purchased prior to the assault weapons CA law everything was legal.

confused

bootcamp
07-29-2009, 1:04 PM
Thanks to all the LEOs that responded. It might be good for us to know what city you guys protect and maybe even a name. I know if I ever get stopped, i'd like to reference an officer uncle of mine who knows about OLLs.

retired
07-29-2009, 2:47 PM
bootcamp, I really don't believe any active leo here will provide that personal information; particularly their name and especially since you (if I'm interpreting your statement correctly) want to say they are your "uncle" if you are stopped.

If that is your intent, please do not insult the leos here with those type of remarks. If I've misinterpreted that part of your post, ignore what I just wrote.

In any case, what I wrote about leos giving you personal info still stands; I don't believe they will.

El Gato
07-29-2009, 3:08 PM
Just for the record, I teach our officers a class on firearms ID which includes info on how to make the gun "safe" in the field.... we bring in about 100 guns and let the officers drool... we do AR's and AK's and use the Calguns AW flow chart which we laminate and hand out to all of the officers in the class... It's gonna take me afew years to get to them all .. but we want them to have the chart... with any luck the law will change before I get to them all...;)

Fire in the Hole
07-29-2009, 3:32 PM
Thanks to all the LEOs that responded. It might be good for us to know what city you guys protect and maybe even a name. I know if I ever get stopped, i'd like to reference an officer uncle of mine who knows about OLLs.

While I don't take offense at the comment; I will speak for myself. I would not reveal such information. Doing so could cause me to be subpeoned for a court trial where I would have to testify under oath that I, as an expert witness provided you with information. Once I have done that, I have no control if you understood it correctly, or misunderstood it, and ended up getting in trouble with the law.

I doubt you considered this possibility when you posted.

bootcamp
07-29-2009, 5:10 PM
No, my intent if I were to be pulled over in my city of residence after they've looked over my legal bullet button equipment rifle and still decide to confiscate and "take me in" would be to reference someone they might know and tell them they are more informed about the laws around OLLs. This of course is a OLL's owner worst nightmare. So attempting to talk your way out of a wrongful felony at all cost is my intent. Shooting is a sport to me, I dont go toting my rifle around with NRA stickers on all my cars and quoting charleton heston. I do like coming home everyday and seeing my kids and going to work. I would NOT like to have to deal with some cop who doesn't know better and throws me in the slammer for all the wrong reasons.

But I get what you guys are saying, the name could be used in a wrong way. "Hey i know so and so, let me go man" type use.

Fire in the Hole
07-29-2009, 6:05 PM
It's been my experience that name dropping usually has negative results that the "dropper" hadn't anticipated.

Turbinator
07-29-2009, 8:46 PM
I have seen enough OLLs with Prince 50 with screws removed, OLLs with regular magazine release. My office recently received OLLs with 7" barrel and regular magazine release and collapsable stock for examination. I see those AW on a fairly regular basis, but haven't seen any OLLs with bullet buttons. That shows the street cops know their stuffs regarding AW.

This is a really good update. Thanks for sharing!

Turby

Trendkill
07-29-2009, 9:13 PM
I have seen enough OLLs with Prince 50 with screws removed, OLLs with regular magazine release. My office recently received OLLs with 7" barrel and regular magazine release and collapsable stock for examination. I see those AW on a fairly regular basis, but haven't seen any OLLs with bullet buttons. That shows the street cops know their stuffs regarding AW.


Wish we could have that other stuff...but its good to know what was confiscated was technically Illegal.

mossberg500
08-02-2009, 8:51 PM
i hope some of the LEOs are from San Diego knows about the OLL an BB and hopefully the department inform them about AR type rifle's that is legal,

Jonathan Doe
08-02-2009, 9:55 PM
Street cops and the people working at the crime lab (firearms examiners) both need to be very familiar with the assault weapon issues.

WokMaster1
08-03-2009, 8:19 AM
No, my intent if I were to be pulled over in my city of residence after they've looked over my legal bullet button equipment rifle and still decide to confiscate and "take me in" would be to reference someone they might know and tell them they are more informed about the laws around OLLs. This of course is a OLL's owner worst nightmare. So attempting to talk your way out of a wrongful felony at all cost is my intent. Shooting is a sport to me, I dont go toting my rifle around with NRA stickers on all my cars and quoting charleton heston. I do like coming home everyday and seeing my kids and going to work. I would NOT like to have to deal with some cop who doesn't know better and throws me in the slammer for all the wrong reasons.

But I get what you guys are saying, the name could be used in a wrong way. "Hey i know so and so, let me go man" type use.

The Sacramento PD memo on OLL legalities is your best friend in such a case.

Calif Mini
08-25-2009, 7:19 PM
Thanks again for all who contributed to this thread.

Lots of good stuff to remember about how to stay on the good side..........

Now to start a build, have good clean fun and poke some holes in paper.

Ed