PDA

View Full Version : Adding long guns to 4473, Imbert & Smithers - help please.


clockwork
07-17-2009, 2:48 PM
Hello,
I dros'd a shotgun at I&S, the waiting period has passed and I can pick that up now. I also bought a couple of C&R long guns from out of state, had them shipped to I&S.

I want to add the C&Rs to the existing 4473. But the guy there tells me I have to start paperwork for the C&Rs all over again because "when the form was submitted electronically 2 weeks ago, it only said 1 gun, we can't add to it".

Is this correct or is this I&S being a PITA again?

Thank you

halifax
07-17-2009, 4:19 PM
Hello,
I dros'd a shotgun at I&S, the waiting period has passed and I can pick that up now. I also bought a couple of C&R long guns from out of state, had them shipped to I&S.

I want to add the C&Rs to the existing 4473. But the guy there tells me I have to start paperwork for the C&Rs all over again because "when the form was submitted electronically 2 weeks ago, it only said 1 gun, we can't add to it".

Is this correct or is this I&S being a PITA again?

Thank you

Try here. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=193222) The discussion really takes off around post #4. ;)

Probably if I&S says no, then it's no.

bwiese
07-17-2009, 4:28 PM
I'd say you need to start fresh. I&S isn't off on this.

leelaw
07-17-2009, 4:31 PM
The form they are talking about is the DROS, which states the number of longguns being transfered. That field can not be modified after it has been sent.

Adidtionally, the 4473 has the make, model, and serial for all firearms being transfered, and it specifically demands that the FFL hand-write out the total number of firearms being transfered (ie: "TWO"), which is supposed to be completed the day the firearm is purchased.

They can't modify the number of longguns being released to you, so you're pretty stuck on this one.

dfletcher
07-17-2009, 5:09 PM
That's what I've been told regarding DROS at nearly every shop, can't add another at time of P/U if the qty on the DROS reflects one. But interesting enough, I've bought a few long guns at Krausewerk and they've told me they put down qty as two at start of DROS, just in case at P/U time for long gun #1 you decide you want another long gun "to go" the same day.

So long as it's legal & doesn't cost more $$$ (for buyer or shop) it seems like an OK business practice to me.

clockwork
07-17-2009, 8:50 PM
Ok so they had me do another FFL dros. Interestingly they charged me $70 for each long gun. My first time doing FFL transfer there and I told him he was over charging but dude didn't budge. Methinks he just made ~$50 but lost a customer...

ke6guj
07-17-2009, 9:02 PM
$70 per firearm for a transfer is not extreme. He is not limited to $35, the maximum PPT DROS, because it it was not transfer in which both parties appeared in front of him at the same time and were both CA residents.


You know what the solution is, get your C&R FFL and it would have cost you $30 for 3 years. You would then be able to receive all the 50+ year old C&R long guns at your house with no CA dealer needed.

clockwork
07-17-2009, 9:29 PM
Usually they put multiple transfers together for a bit of a break...

CHS
07-17-2009, 10:48 PM
The form they are talking about is the DROS, which states the number of longguns being transfered. That field can not be modified after it has been sent.


Yes it can. However, the DoJ only lets you decrease the number, not increase it.

For long guns, it shouldn't matter. That information gets destroyed after 15 days. All that's important is that the background check came back clear. If you're a dealer and really paranoid, just start out every DROS at 10 guns.


Adidtionally, the 4473 has the make, model, and serial for all firearms being transfered, and it specifically demands that the FFL hand-write out the total number of firearms being transfered (ie: "TWO"), which is supposed to be completed the day the firearm is purchased.


Not true.

The 4473 can be changed as often as you want, however you want, up until the dealer signs it. The dealer doesn't sign it until the 10 days is up and you've come and collected your gun. In my shop we explicitly leave the quantity box empty until the customer returns after the waiting period.

This is according to the actual instructions on the 4473 itself.

Once the dealer signs it though, you may no longer make any changes to it.


They can't modify the number of longguns being released to you, so you're pretty stuck on this one.

Yes they can.

hawk81
07-18-2009, 12:38 AM
Yep, I am pretty sure you are absolutely correct on everything you said.

Yes it can. However, the DoJ only lets you decrease the number, not increase it.

For long guns, it shouldn't matter. That information gets destroyed after 15 days. All that's important is that the background check came back clear. If you're a dealer and really paranoid, just start out every DROS at 10 guns.



Not true.

The 4473 can be changed as often as you want, however you want, up until the dealer signs it. The dealer doesn't sign it until the 10 days is up and you've come and collected your gun. In my shop we explicitly leave the quantity box empty until the customer returns after the waiting period.

This is according to the actual instructions on the 4473 itself.

Once the dealer signs it though, you may no longer make any changes to it.



Yes they can.

halifax
07-18-2009, 7:03 AM
Yes it can. However, the DoJ only lets you decrease the number, not increase it.

For long guns, it shouldn't matter. That information gets destroyed after 15 days. All that's important is that the background check came back clear. If you're a dealer and really paranoid, just start out every DROS at 10 guns.

...


I can't seem to find where the "number of long guns" information is required by law. Why is it even on the DROS?


12077(c)(1) For firearms other than handguns, information
contained in the register or record of
electronic transfer shall be the date and time of
sale, peace officer exemption status pursuant to
subdivision (a) of Section 12078 and the agency
name, auction or event waiting period exemption
pursuant to subdivision (g) of Section 12078,
California Firearms Dealer number issued pursuant
to Section 12071, dangerous weapons
permit holder waiting period exemption pursuant
to subdivision (r) of Section 12078, curio and relic
waiting period exemption pursuant to paragraph
(1) of subdivision (t) of Section 12078, full
name of purchaser, purchaser's complete date
of birth, purchaser's local address, if current address
is temporary, complete permanent address
of purchaser, identification of purchaser,
purchaser's place of birth (state or country), purchaser's
complete telephone number, purchaser's
occupation, purchaser's sex, purchaser's
physical description, all legal names and aliases
ever used by the purchaser, yes or no answer to
questions that prohibit purchase, including, but
not limited to, conviction of a felony as described
in Section 12021 or an offense described in Section
12021.1, the purchaser's status as a person
described in Section 8100 of the Welfare and
Institutions Code, whether the purchaser is a
person who has been adjudicated by a court to
be a danger to others or found not guilty by reason
of insanity, whether the purchaser is a person
who has been found incompetent to stand
trial or placed under conservatorship by a court
pursuant to Section 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code, signature of purchaser, signature
of salesperson (as a witness to the purchaser's
signature), salesperson's certificate of eligibility if
he or she has obtained a certificate of eligibility,
name and complete address of the dealer or firm
selling the firearm as shown on the dealer's
license, the establishment number, if assigned,
the dealer's complete business telephone
number, any information required by Section
12082, and a statement of the penalties for any
person signing a fictitious name or address or
for knowingly furnishing any incorrect information
or for knowingly omitting any information required
to be provided for the register.

CHS
07-18-2009, 8:47 AM
I can't seem to find where the "number of long guns" information is required by law. Why is it even on the DROS?

As far as I can understand, it's for statistical purposes only.

Long gun DROS's shouldn't and don't matter because DoJ destroys the information after 15 days.

And as a dealer, it's pretty easy to verify. Just go into the DROS software and try to review a DROS number that's more than 15-20 days old. It won't come up.

halifax
07-18-2009, 11:53 AM
As far as I can understand, it's for statistical purposes only.

Long gun DROS's shouldn't and don't matter because DoJ destroys the information after 15 days.

And as a dealer, it's pretty easy to verify. Just go into the DROS software and try to review a DROS number that's more than 15-20 days old. It won't come up.

If, as has been said, the number of long guns is so important that you can only decrease it, why isn't it a lawful requirement? Just wondering.

CHS
07-18-2009, 2:21 PM
If, as has been said, the number of long guns is so important that you can only decrease it, why isn't it a lawful requirement? Just wondering.

Because nothing the DoJ does makes any sense? :)