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titus7
07-17-2009, 2:41 PM
Hey I just sold some ammo and have received payment. What do I need to do to legally ship it in state? Do I need a copy of his ID to prove his age and to put a copy with it? Fedex said that they wouldn't ship it?? Any help

Shane916
07-17-2009, 3:01 PM
Has to be shipped via UPS/FedEx ground. No idea on FedEx but it's likely the same, UPS requires you take it to their hub. It must be marked ORM-D and declared as such. The ID requirement is merely up to you. Many sellers do it to err of safety.

titus7
07-17-2009, 3:31 PM
I just dont know the laws of shipping it and dont want to do it the wrong way. So the ID isnt a requirement??

curtisfong
07-17-2009, 3:56 PM
No, as far as i know the only requirement is an ORM-D sticker/marking. You don't even have to declare what kind of ORM-D.

v/dBrink
07-17-2009, 3:58 PM
In the small town where I live I had a couple contentious encounters with the person being paid as the manager of the UPS facility. He refused to accept a box that I indicated had a quantity of small arms cartridges. He pointed to a poster on the wall having to do with "hazardous materials" and noted the one that said "ammunition". I asked him for UPS corporate policy on shipping small arms ammunition but he refused says he wasn't going to waste any more time on me. I took that as a declaration of war.

In researching the issue it boils down to whether your local facility accepts ORM-D (Other Regulated Material, class D) shipments. In further researching UPS corporate policy I found that they obviously don't require much in the way of intelligence for managerial positions as the guy who I had the misfortune to deal with was dumber than dirt and proud of it.


"UPS does not accept hazardous materials shipments at UPS Customer
Centers, The UPS Store®, Air Letter Centers, Authorized Shipping
Outlets, commercial counters, or using Internet shipping. Ground
shipments of ORM-D materials in the 48 contiguous States may be
accepted at some locations."


>From UPS Policy:

"Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be
transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with
49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments."


49 CFR 173.59: (definitions)

(these are examples of how the word "ammunition" are defined)

Ammunition. Generic term related mainly to articles of military application
consisting of all types of bombs, grenades, rockets, mines, projectiles and
other similar devices or contrivances.

Ammunition, illuminating, with or without burster, expelling charge or
propelling charge. Ammunition designed to produce a single source of intense
light for lighting up an area. The term includes illuminating cartridges,
grenades and projectiles, and illuminating and target identification bombs. The
term excludes the following articles which are listed separately: cartridges,
signal; signal devices; hand signals; distress flares, aerial and flares,
surface.

Ammunition, incendiary. Ammunition containing an incendiary substance which may
be a solid, liquid or gel including white phosphorus. Except when the
composition is an explosive per se, it also contains one or more of the
following: a propelling charge with primer and igniter charge, or a fuze with
burster or expelling charge. The term includes: Ammunition, incendiary, liquid
or gel, with burster, expelling charge or propelling charge; Ammunition,
incendiary with or without burster, expelling charge or propelling charge; and
Ammunition, incendiary, white phosphorus, with burster, expelling charge or
propelling charge.

Ammunition, practice. Ammunition without a main bursting charge, containing a
burster or expelling charge. Normally it also contains a fuze and propelling
charge. The term excludes the following article which is listed separately:
Grenades, practice.

Ammunition, proof. Ammunition containing pyrotechnic substance, used to test
the performance or strength of new ammunition, weapon component or assemblies.

Ammunition, smoke. Ammunition containing a smoke-producing substance such as
chlorosulphonic acid mixture (CSAM), titanium tetrachloride (FM), white
phosphorus, or smoke-producing substance whose composition is based on
hexachlorothannol (HC) or red phosphorus. Except when the substance is an
explosive per se, the ammunition also contains one or more of the following: a
propelling charge with primer and igniter charge, or a fuze with burster or
expelling charge. The term includes: Ammunition, smoke, with or without burster,
expelling charge or propelling charge; Ammunition, smoke, white phosphorus with
burster, expelling charge or propelling charge.

Ammunition, tear-producing with burster, expelling charge or propelling charge.
Ammunition containing tear-producing substance. It may also contain one or more
of the following: a pyrotechnic substance, a propelling charge with primer and
igniter charge, or a fuze with burster or expelling charge.

Ammunition, toxic. Ammunition containing toxic agent. It may also contain one
or more of the following: a pyrotechnic substance, a propelling charge with
primer and igniter charge, or a fuze with burster or expelling charge.

Cartridges for weapons. (1) Fixed (assembled) or semi-fixed (partially
assembled) ammunition designed to be fired from weapons. Each cartridge includes
all the components necessary to function the weapon once. The name and
description should be used for military small arms cartridges that cannot be
described as cartridges, small arms. Separate loading ammunition is included
under this name and description when the propelling charge and projectile are
packed together (see also Cartridges, blank).

((This below is the correct designation for small arms ammunition))

Cartridges, small arms. Ammunition consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a
center or rim fire primer and containing both a propelling charge and solid
projectile(s). They are designed to be fired in weapons of caliber not larger
than 19.1 mm. Shotgun cartridges of any caliber are included in this
description. The term excludes: Cartridges, small arms, blank, and some military
small arms cartridges listed under Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/49cfr173.59.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER I--RESEARCH AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

PART 173_SHIPPERS_GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND PACKAGINGS--Table of
Contents

Subpart D_Definitions Classification, Packing Group Assignments and
Exceptions for Hazardous Materials Other Than Class 1 and Class 7

Sec. 173.144 Other Regulated Materials (ORM)--Definitions.

For the purpose of this subchapter, ``ORM-D material'' means a
material such as a consumer commodity, which, although otherwise subject
to the regulations of this subchapter, presents a limited hazard during
transportation due to its form, quantity and packaging. It must be a
material for which exceptions are provided in the Sec. 172.101 table.
Each ORM-D material and category of ORM-D material is listed in the
Sec. 172.101 table.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/49cfr173.144.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

49 CFR 172.101 list of ORM-D:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/49cfr172.101.htm

(page 145 D) cartridges, small arms

packaging requirement : ORM-D label
weight limit per parcel: 66 pounds (30 kilograms)

There is an "exception 63" called out in this chart that
deals with how small arms cartridges must be packed inside
the box. Its not a big deal. It refers to 49 CFR 173.63.

I've seen two different references to this ORM-D label.
One is above in 49 CFR. The 2nd said the ORM-D label
had to have "cartridges, small arms" also on the ORM-D
label. But 49 CFR makes no such requirement.

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title49/49-2.1.1.3.8.3.25.14.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

49 CFR 172
(c) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering
the packaging for transportation that the material is properly
described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and
in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable
regulations of this subchapter. This form of certification does not
preclude the requirement for a certificate on a shipping paper when
required by subpart C of this part.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_02/49cfr172_02.html

[/end]


Small arms cartridges are not classed as "explosive" by UPS.
Clearly they are re-classed as ORM-D as defined by US DOT and called
out in UPS corporate policy which points directly at 49 CFR § 172.

I've not gotten back into this with UPS corporate office yet.
It raises my blood pressure.

titus7
07-17-2009, 4:02 PM
So I just walk in to ship it and ask them to put an ORM-D sticker on the package and thats it a done deal??

courteousgavin
07-17-2009, 4:05 PM
No, as far as i know the only requirement is an ORM-D sticker/marking. You don't even have to declare what kind of ORM-D.


You do have to declare what kind of ORM-D is inside the parcel. Ammo has to have ORM-D Cartridges Small Arms on the side of the package. It is against the law to use the Consumer Commodity ORM-D markings on ammo parcels.

courteousgavin
07-17-2009, 4:09 PM
So I just walk in to ship it and ask them to put an ORM-D sticker on the package and thats it a done deal??

You should put the marking on tha package before you go in. You can write it on the side of the box or you can print up a label from the internet. There is a thread somewhere here on Calguns that has a sheet of ORM-D labels you can print. The lettering has to be a certain size to comply with federal law, but I'm not exactly sure what size that is.

OK, here is the thead with the labels you can print: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=54456

curtisfong
07-17-2009, 4:16 PM
You do have to declare what kind of ORM-D is inside the parcel. Ammo has to have ORM-D Cartridges Small Arms on the side of the package. It is against the law to use the Consumer Commodity ORM-D markings on ammo parcels.

I shipped something ORM-D UPS ground and the guy didnt' even blink.. he just took the package.

v/dBrink
07-17-2009, 9:00 PM
Ammo has to have ORM-D Cartridges Small Arms on the side of the package.

It is against the law to use the Consumer Commodity ORM-D markings on ammo parcels.


Would you care to provide chapter and verse to support these two statements?

Both these statements conflict with what I found in researching the issue. I'd like to clear up my misunderstanding.

leitung
07-17-2009, 9:24 PM
UPS store in Great Falls, MT had no problem shipping ammo home to me.

So I guess it's really up to the store..

cousinkix1953
07-17-2009, 11:25 PM
UPS stores are independent franchises. Unfortunately some are owned by anti-gun jerks. I had no trouble shipping a rifle stock and other misc gun parts. Never tried ammo at my local outlet...

Flying Bones
07-17-2009, 11:51 PM
So you wanna mess with a calgunner? Think twice, before you get hit with the book.
In the small town where I live I had a couple contentious encounters with the person being paid as the manager of the UPS facility. He refused to accept a box that I indicated had a quantity of small arms cartridges. He pointed to a poster on the wall having to do with "hazardous materials" and noted the one that said "ammunition". I asked him for UPS corporate policy on shipping small arms ammunition but he refused says he wasn't going to waste any more time on me. I took that as a declaration of war.

In researching the issue it boils down to whether your local facility accepts ORM-D (Other Regulated Material, class D) shipments. In further researching UPS corporate policy I found that they obviously don't require much in the way of intelligence for managerial positions as the guy who I had the misfortune to deal with was dumber than dirt and proud of it.


"UPS does not accept hazardous materials shipments at UPS Customer
Centers, The UPS Store®, Air Letter Centers, Authorized Shipping
Outlets, commercial counters, or using Internet shipping. Ground
shipments of ORM-D materials in the 48 contiguous States may be
accepted at some locations."


>From UPS Policy:

"Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be
transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with
49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments."


49 CFR 173.59: (definitions)

(these are examples of how the word "ammunition" are defined)

Ammunition. Generic term related mainly to articles of military application
consisting of all types of bombs, grenades, rockets, mines, projectiles and
other similar devices or contrivances.

Ammunition, illuminating, with or without burster, expelling charge or
propelling charge. Ammunition designed to produce a single source of intense
light for lighting up an area. The term includes illuminating cartridges,
grenades and projectiles, and illuminating and target identification bombs. The
term excludes the following articles which are listed separately: cartridges,
signal; signal devices; hand signals; distress flares, aerial and flares,
surface.

Ammunition, incendiary. Ammunition containing an incendiary substance which may
be a solid, liquid or gel including white phosphorus. Except when the
composition is an explosive per se, it also contains one or more of the
following: a propelling charge with primer and igniter charge, or a fuze with
burster or expelling charge. The term includes: Ammunition, incendiary, liquid
or gel, with burster, expelling charge or propelling charge; Ammunition,
incendiary with or without burster, expelling charge or propelling charge; and
Ammunition, incendiary, white phosphorus, with burster, expelling charge or
propelling charge.

Ammunition, practice. Ammunition without a main bursting charge, containing a
burster or expelling charge. Normally it also contains a fuze and propelling
charge. The term excludes the following article which is listed separately:
Grenades, practice.

Ammunition, proof. Ammunition containing pyrotechnic substance, used to test
the performance or strength of new ammunition, weapon component or assemblies.

Ammunition, smoke. Ammunition containing a smoke-producing substance such as
chlorosulphonic acid mixture (CSAM), titanium tetrachloride (FM), white
phosphorus, or smoke-producing substance whose composition is based on
hexachlorothannol (HC) or red phosphorus. Except when the substance is an
explosive per se, the ammunition also contains one or more of the following: a
propelling charge with primer and igniter charge, or a fuze with burster or
expelling charge. The term includes: Ammunition, smoke, with or without burster,
expelling charge or propelling charge; Ammunition, smoke, white phosphorus with
burster, expelling charge or propelling charge.

Ammunition, tear-producing with burster, expelling charge or propelling charge.
Ammunition containing tear-producing substance. It may also contain one or more
of the following: a pyrotechnic substance, a propelling charge with primer and
igniter charge, or a fuze with burster or expelling charge.

Ammunition, toxic. Ammunition containing toxic agent. It may also contain one
or more of the following: a pyrotechnic substance, a propelling charge with
primer and igniter charge, or a fuze with burster or expelling charge.

Cartridges for weapons. (1) Fixed (assembled) or semi-fixed (partially
assembled) ammunition designed to be fired from weapons. Each cartridge includes
all the components necessary to function the weapon once. The name and
description should be used for military small arms cartridges that cannot be
described as cartridges, small arms. Separate loading ammunition is included
under this name and description when the propelling charge and projectile are
packed together (see also Cartridges, blank).

((This below is the correct designation for small arms ammunition))

Cartridges, small arms. Ammunition consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a
center or rim fire primer and containing both a propelling charge and solid
projectile(s). They are designed to be fired in weapons of caliber not larger
than 19.1 mm. Shotgun cartridges of any caliber are included in this
description. The term excludes: Cartridges, small arms, blank, and some military
small arms cartridges listed under Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/49cfr173.59.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER I--RESEARCH AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

PART 173_SHIPPERS_GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND PACKAGINGS--Table of
Contents

Subpart D_Definitions Classification, Packing Group Assignments and
Exceptions for Hazardous Materials Other Than Class 1 and Class 7

Sec. 173.144 Other Regulated Materials (ORM)--Definitions.

For the purpose of this subchapter, ``ORM-D material'' means a
material such as a consumer commodity, which, although otherwise subject
to the regulations of this subchapter, presents a limited hazard during
transportation due to its form, quantity and packaging. It must be a
material for which exceptions are provided in the Sec. 172.101 table.
Each ORM-D material and category of ORM-D material is listed in the
Sec. 172.101 table.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/49cfr173.144.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

49 CFR 172.101 list of ORM-D:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/49cfr172.101.htm

(page 145 D) cartridges, small arms

packaging requirement : ORM-D label
weight limit per parcel: 66 pounds (30 kilograms)

There is an "exception 63" called out in this chart that
deals with how small arms cartridges must be packed inside
the box. Its not a big deal. It refers to 49 CFR 173.63.

I've seen two different references to this ORM-D label.
One is above in 49 CFR. The 2nd said the ORM-D label
had to have "cartridges, small arms" also on the ORM-D
label. But 49 CFR makes no such requirement.

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title49/49-2.1.1.3.8.3.25.14.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

49 CFR 172
(c) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering
the packaging for transportation that the material is properly
described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and
in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable
regulations of this subchapter. This form of certification does not
preclude the requirement for a certificate on a shipping paper when
required by subpart C of this part.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_02/49cfr172_02.html

[/end]


Small arms cartridges are not classed as "explosive" by UPS.
Clearly they are re-classed as ORM-D as defined by US DOT and called
out in UPS corporate policy which points directly at 49 CFR § 172.

I've not gotten back into this with UPS corporate office yet.
It raises my blood pressure.

Shane916
07-18-2009, 9:53 AM
I just dont know the laws of shipping it and dont want to do it the wrong way. So the ID isnt a requirement??

Mark it as ORM-D. Take it to a UPS/FedEx hub. If they ask, tell them it is small arms cartridges. It's honestly that simple.

EOD Guy
07-18-2009, 1:41 PM
Would you care to provide chapter and verse to support these two statements?

Both these statements conflict with what I found in researching the issue. I'd like to clear up my misunderstanding.

Here is an excerpt from 49CFR covering how to ship small arms ammunition.

Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 173

173.63 Packaging exceptions

(b) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices. (1) Cartridges, small arms and cartridges power devices (which are used to project fastening devices) which have been classed as a Division 1.4S explosive may be reclassed, offered for transportation, and transported as ORM-D material when packaged in accordance with paragraph (b)(2) of this section; such transportation is excepted from the requirements of subparts E (Labeling) and F (Placarding) of part 172 of this subchapter. Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices that may be shipped as ORM-D material is limited to:

(i) Ammunition for rifle, pistol, or shotgun;
(ii) Ammunition with inert projectiles or blank ammunition;
(iii) Ammunition having no tear gas, incendiary, or detonating explosive projectiles;
(iv) Ammunition not exceeding 12.7 mm (50 caliber or 0.5 inch) for rifle or pistol, cartridges or 8 gauge for shotshells; and
(v) Cartridges power devices which are use to project fastening devices.

(2) Packaging for cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices as ORM-D material must be as follows:
(i) Ammunition must be packed in inside boxes, or in partitions which fit snugly in the outside packaging, or in metal clips;
(ii) Primers must be protected from accidental initiation;
(iii) Inside boxes, partitions or metal clips must be packed in securely-closed strong outside packagings;
(iv) Maximum gross weight is limited to 30 Kg (66 pounds) per package; and
(v) Cartridges, power devices which are used to project fastening devices and 22 caliber rim-fire cartridges may be packaged loose in strong outside packagings.

Part 172 (Marking)

172.316 Packagings containing material classed as ORM-D

(a) Each non-bulk packaging containing a material classed as ORM-D must be marked on at least one side or end with the ORM-D designation immediately following or below the proper shipping name of the material (Cartridges, Small Arms). The ORM designation must be placed within a rectangle that is approximately 6.3 mm (0.25 inches) larger on each side than the designation.

(b) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering the packaging for transportation that the material is properly described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable regulations of this subchapter.


Please note that Section 172.316(a) of the regulation requires the proper shipping name in addition to the ORM-D marking. The correct proper shipping name is Cartridges Small Arms. Consumer Commodity cannot be used since that is not the correct proper shipping name as shown in the hazardous materials table.

v/dBrink
07-18-2009, 11:02 PM
Please note that Section 172.316(a) of the regulation requires the proper shipping name in addition to the ORM-D marking. The correct proper shipping name is Cartridges Small Arms. Consumer Commodity cannot be used since that is not the correct proper shipping name as shown in the hazardous materials table.


Thanks. 172.316 is the part I hadn't seen. I want to have all my ducks in a row when I get back into this with the local UPS.