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View Full Version : Class 3 arms, full auto, modifications.


nicki
07-16-2009, 11:38 AM
I know we can own them if we have them stored securely in a class 3 state, Bank vault(Safe deposit box) for example.

Here is a question.

Could someone buy a lower cost full auto, then have it "rebuilt", basically destroyed then rebuilt into a AR lower and stamped with old markings and serial numbers.

Seems to me that if this was a legal workaround, one could take a crap class three full auto piece of junk and make upgrade it into something much better, like a M16 lower.

Might be a less expensive way to get full auto M 16 in a round about way.

Nicki

kalguns
07-16-2009, 12:38 PM
How would "They" know you did that?

TZL
07-16-2009, 12:43 PM
I have no idea what you are even proposing

are you saying using a crappy class 3 like a sten or something and then using the serial # for a new m16 lower??

Quiet
07-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Here is a question.

Could someone buy a lower cost full auto, then have it "rebuilt", basically destroyed then rebuilt into a AR lower and stamped with old markings and serial numbers.

Seems to me that if this was a legal workaround, one could take a crap class three full auto piece of junk and make upgrade it into something much better, like a M16 lower.

Might be a less expensive way to get full auto M 16 in a round about way.

Nicki

No.

Several years back, the BATFE busted some people that had pre-'86 transferable SWD M-11/9 MGs (bought for around $1000), destroying the recievers, transfered the serial numbers to newly manufactured M-60 MGs and selling them (for around $20,000) as pre-'86 transferable MGs.
Once, BATFE caught on to what was going on, they arrested the people for manufacturing/transfering the post-'86 MGs and confiscated all the MGs involved. The buyers' of the restamped M-60s were not charged with anything, but they did end up with no MGs and did not get their money back.

ke6guj
07-16-2009, 12:52 PM
Some guys tried doing what you are talking about. They "remanufactured" cheap transferable Mac11's into things like 1919a4's, MG42's, etc. ATF just recently confiscated a bunch of them in the last year or so.

edit: too slow, Quiet nailed it.

motorhead
07-16-2009, 1:04 PM
reciever is the gun. destroy the reciever, destroy the gun. like a parts kit.

6172crew
07-16-2009, 1:06 PM
No.

Several years back, the BATFE busted some people that had pre-'86 transferable SWD M-11/9 MGs (bought for around $1000), destroying the recievers, transfered the serial numbers to newly manufactured M-60 MGs and selling them (for around $20,000) as pre-'86 transferable MGs.
Once, BATFE caught on to what was going on, they arrested the people for manufacturing/transfering the post-'86 MGs and confiscated all the MGs involved. The buyers' of the restamped M-60s were not charged with anything, but they did end up with no MGs and did not get their money back.

This

6172crew
07-16-2009, 1:11 PM
I have a Thompson 1928a1 dewat but because cadmus tossed them into a fire pit they are junk, it cant be melted down and re-built unless it was done by the original guys.

I also have a Frankford Ar. XM177 that was a OLY arms lower converted, I thought about having a new one built but Frankford isnt the same company and Oly wont touch it. The ATF has made it hard to re-build these.

The only guy getting away with it is Stemple, his kits can still be used as a Sten and therefore he can make other guns out of them.

I even thought about making a DIAS out of the Xm177 lower but I think there is something about not destroying the serial numbered area of part(machine gun). I could be wrong about this part though.

-hanko
07-16-2009, 2:11 PM
The only guy getting away with it is Stemple, his kits can still be used as a Sten and therefore he can make other guns out of them.
Use the past tense; John Stemple passed away in February, 2007.:(

Check http://jrstemplearms.com/memorial.htm

His guns work well & are elegant in design.

-hanko

WHenderson
07-16-2009, 3:26 PM
I also have a Frankford Ar. XM177 that was a OLY arms lower converted, I thought about having a new one built but Frankford isnt the same company and Oly wont touch it. The ATF has made it hard to re-build these.

I even thought about making a DIAS out of the Xm177 lower but I think there is something about not destroying the serial numbered area of part(machine gun). I could be wrong about this part though.

That seems like a great idea. I wonder what kind of response you would get from the ATF in regards to a legal currently registered MG. Maybe it would have to have the guns original serial number on it. I wonder if a lower receiver has enough material to make one out of it by machining it down. It's not manufacturing a new machine gun. Interesting, and wild idea.

To the OP: I don't think you can remanufacture a receiver, but you can repair it.

CHS
07-16-2009, 4:00 PM
To the OP: I don't think you can remanufacture a receiver, but you can repair it.

The original manufacturer can re-manufacture a receiver, but only the original manufacturer. For most NFA stuff, the manufacturers are no longer around or won't do it for you.

A different manufacturer can only repair the existing one.

7x57
07-16-2009, 4:18 PM
The original manufacturer can re-manufacture a receiver, but only the original manufacturer. For most NFA stuff, the manufacturers are no longer around or won't do it for you.

A different manufacturer can only repair the existing one.

Hmm. However, someone may still own their trademarks or something. Is there any possibility of a company buying that stuff up and starting a boutique business remanufacturing receivers? Good God, at the price of full-auto weapons you could hand-machine everything with the best finish work and still have all the work you could handle.

ATF has their own "special" rules that disallow that kind of successor-in-interest, don't they? They must.

7x57

CHS
07-16-2009, 4:27 PM
Hmm. However, someone may still own their trademarks or something. Is there any possibility of a company buying that stuff up and starting a boutique business remanufacturing receivers? Good God, at the price of full-auto weapons you could hand-machine everything with the best finish work and still have all the work you could handle.

ATF has their own "special" rules that disallow that kind of successor-in-interest, don't they? They must.

7x57

That's a really good question. And the business that figures that out and starts buying up old companies will become a millionaire overnight. :) (if it can actually be done).

I think the biggest difficulty though would be figuring out the logistics for all of the machineguns that were manufactured outside the US and imported.

Plus, the books of any closed-up business had to have been turned over to the BATFE. I doubt you could buy up the old name and get those books back.

7x57
07-16-2009, 5:01 PM
That's a really good question. And the business that figures that out and starts buying up old companies will become a millionaire overnight. :) (if it can actually be done).


That was my thought. I almost have the urge to go into business. :D


I think the biggest difficulty though would be figuring out the logistics for all of the machineguns that were manufactured outside the US and imported.


What do you mean. Getting the US rights from dead foreign companies?

Say, wouldn't the easiest route be to start by looking for foreign manufacturers that have significant numbers of registered "machine guns" but have no US manufacturing presence? If such a manufacturer exists, it might be feasible to buy domestic service and repair rights, and that might get around most of the obstacles the ATF could toss in your way.


Plus, the books of any closed-up business had to have been turned over to the BATFE. I doubt you could buy up the old name and get those books back.

Do you need the books? That's the question--what, really, are the rules? I sort of suspect they've never been defined and thus are up to ATF administrative rulemaking, and that's probably not good.

I imagine it's obvious that my interest in this is the possibility of increasing/preserving the number of civilian "machine guns" in circulation even while we hope, in time, to be in a position to re-open the registry.

While we have blue-dog Democrats eager to prove everyone wrong about the Democrats and guns, it would be nice if we could get congress to just tell the ATF some rules that would make this possible. That should be at least slightly easier politically than re-opening the registry.

7x57

6172crew
07-16-2009, 5:02 PM
I spoke with the Army guy who bought Frankford Arsenal and he isnt even a NFA manufacture. I looked at getting a semi-auto with my serial number and its all ready purchased.:) Its not like somethings wrong with the nfa lower but I was hoping to get it looking like new.
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/7852/dscn9133.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3602/dscn9131.jpg

fd15k
07-16-2009, 5:15 PM
There are rumors floating around that registered sears can be used in any systems where no serialized lower modifications are needed. In particular, some folks suggested to modify Sig 556 lower (not a serialized part) to accomodate FNC sears, which go for ~$3K.

CHS
07-16-2009, 5:28 PM
There are rumors floating around that registered sears can be used in any systems where no serialized lower modifications are needed. In particular, some folks suggested to modify Sig 556 lower (not a serialized part) to accomodate FNC sears, which go for ~$3K.

That's true. If you have a registered DIAS or Lightning Link (or equivalent), you can use it in any firearm. The DIAS or LL is the machinegun, not the host firearm.

That's why you'll also find "brand new" full auto MP5's on the market. They are built around a registered sear or trigger pack.

ke6guj
07-16-2009, 5:29 PM
I'm not sure about that one. I've heard that ATF has ruled that one can't use an RDIAS from an AR15 in an USAS-12, even though it could be made to work. Same goes for shoehorning in HK sears into other items.

AFAIK, ATF says that if you modify the host gun to accept the sear, then the host gun becomes a conversion device. How tht fleshes out with ATF's recent ruling declaring that the controlled item on an FNC was the upper receiver, and that the lower was just parts, and the lower has to be modifed to accept the registered sear, I dunno. I hadn't heard anything about the sear being married to that lower and upper.


But I know that Mark Serbu said that he designed the BFG-50A to be RDIAS-ready. Full-auto 50BMG rifle:eek: And I don't recall if that MP5-looking gun, the LUSA or something like that is HK-sear ready or not.

6172crew
07-16-2009, 6:40 PM
I'm not sure about that one. I've heard that ATF has ruled that one can't use an RDIAS from an AR15 in an USAS-12, even though it could be made to work. Same goes for shoehorning in HK sears into other items.

AFAIK, ATF says that if you modify the host gun to accept the sear, then the host gun becomes a conversion device. How tht fleshes out with ATF's recent ruling declaring that the controlled item on an FNC was the upper receiver, and that the lower was just parts, and the lower has to be modifed to accept the registered sear, I dunno. I hadn't heard anything about the sear being married to that lower and upper.


But I know that Mark Serbu said that he designed the BFG-50A to be RDIAS-ready. Full-auto 50BMG rifle:eek: And I don't recall if that MP5-looking gun, the LUSA or something like that is HK-sear ready or not.

This is what I understand, you cant buy a AUG trigger pack and use it in the Ps90. But I can use my Mini Uzi bolt in a Micro Uzi.