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1923mack
07-16-2009, 11:16 AM
Have read in a few threads where part of ones private property (front yard or other location) was considered public area. CCW is legal on ones private property, but not public property (and public area?). Is there any signage that we can post on our property to eliminate the possibilty of our private property being considered public area? Is "Keep Out" or "Do Not Tresspass" enough or do we need a 3 sentance "thing" to do this?

Theseus
07-16-2009, 12:18 PM
Private Property signs hold now power of law in California. The only way to make them not "public places" is to put up a huge fence and ensure no one without key has access to the property.

Glock22Fan
07-16-2009, 12:53 PM
Theseus, you must, sadly, be our current expert on this. If a mall, which is presumably locked up at night, is considered to be a public place, how about, say, my garage, if I hold a garage sale once each year? How about my fenced yard if I leave the gate open on Wednesday mornings for the trash truck? What about my front room if I open it up to, say, AA for public meetings once a week? How long does a place have to be open to the public, in order to be a public place? Does my home cease to be a private place if I hold an "Open day?"

motorhead
07-16-2009, 1:58 PM
my home remains private property. if you don't have the current password you're a target with legs. and as i'm constantly reminding female visitors, all who enter are subject to search. oh, and smoking is mandatory!!!

E Pluribus Unum
07-16-2009, 2:04 PM
Private Property signs hold now power of law in California. The only way to make them not "public places" is to put up a huge fence and ensure no one without key has access to the property.

I'm no attorney but in my reading of Penal Code 602 "No trespassing" signs apply to the crime of trespassing.

In my reading of the law, if private property is posted with "No trespassing" signs, entry into that property is trespassing.

Many people think that if someone is on private property without permission, it is trespassing. That is not the case if there is no signage. It is only trespassing if then asked to leave and you refuse.

With signage, trespassing occurs as soon as the private property is entered.

cadurand
07-16-2009, 9:36 PM
I'm no attorney but in my reading of Penal Code 602 "No trespassing" signs apply to the crime of trespassing.

In my reading of the law, if private property is posted with "No trespassing" signs, entry into that property is trespassing.

Many people think that if someone is on private property without permission, it is trespassing. That is not the case if there is no signage. It is only trespassing if then asked to leave and you refuse.

With signage, trespassing occurs as soon as the private property is entered.Trespassing is one of my pet peeves here in San Jose. It's basically unenforcable in almost all cases.

I have a problem with people going through my dumpsters looking for cans and bottles. That activity by itself I really don't mind. But some of these people make a terrible mess which I then have to clean up or pay to have cleaned up.

The city says that my signs are all in order but enforcing 602 isn't going to happen unless they cops actually SEE the person on my property. This is almost impossible. I have managed to do it once though. The cops warned the guy not to come back.. and he was back inside of two weeks.. but by the time I called he was gone so they couldn't do anything. They wouldn't even drive down the street to talk to him again.

The cops said if I had a locked gate it still would require them to see him on my property. I asked if video would help, they said "it might" but I get the impression they aren't going to spend a lot of time and resources on trespassing complaints. I have to agree it's not the crime of the century but it is still annoying to know you can't really keep people off your property unless a cop just happens to be driving by when you call.

As for the mess these guys create? Again, had to be seen by the cops for them to do anything about it.

I don't even bother to call anymore.

Scratch705
07-16-2009, 9:39 PM
lock the dumpster at night?

we had that issue at my work, then our building manager built a locked fence around the two dumpsters and that stopped the hobos from coming.

Seesm
07-16-2009, 10:11 PM
Pretty sad when you have to lock your trash up isn't it? Ha! :)

odysseus
07-16-2009, 10:13 PM
The issue is in regards to open access. Thus if an area is open, such as a lot of people's front yards which means access to the front door, mail carrier drop, utilities people, it is quasi-public. Areas you fence off are by definition not openly accessible.

stuckinhippytown
07-17-2009, 5:13 AM
LOl I dont have the hobo problem... They still cant figure out how to get around the livestock hotwire fence

Untamed1972
07-17-2009, 9:09 AM
Trespassing is one of my pet peeves here in San Jose. It's basically unenforcable in almost all cases.

I have a problem with people going through my dumpsters looking for cans and bottles. That activity by itself I really don't mind. But some of these people make a terrible mess which I then have to clean up or pay to have cleaned up.

The city says that my signs are all in order but enforcing 602 isn't going to happen unless they cops actually SEE the person on my property. This is almost impossible. I have managed to do it once though. The cops warned the guy not to come back.. and he was back inside of two weeks.. but by the time I called he was gone so they couldn't do anything. They wouldn't even drive down the street to talk to him again.

The cops said if I had a locked gate it still would require them to see him on my property. I asked if video would help, they said "it might" but I get the impression they aren't going to spend a lot of time and resources on trespassing complaints. I have to agree it's not the crime of the century but it is still annoying to know you can't really keep people off your property unless a cop just happens to be driving by when you call.

As for the mess these guys create? Again, had to be seen by the cops for them to do anything about it.

I don't even bother to call anymore.


They have to see the person because 602 is a misdemeanor. For them to arrest the crime must be committed in their presence.

BUT.....you are legally entitled to perform a citizens arrest and hold them for the police and under CA law they cannot refuse to receive the prisoner. HOWEVER....beware....if you make a citizens arrest YOU are liable for making sure it was done properly and according to the law.

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2009, 10:48 AM
Trespassing is one of my pet peeves here in San Jose. It's basically unenforcable in almost all cases.

I have a problem with people going through my dumpsters looking for cans and bottles. That activity by itself I really don't mind. But some of these people make a terrible mess which I then have to clean up or pay to have cleaned up.

The city says that my signs are all in order but enforcing 602 isn't going to happen unless they cops actually SEE the person on my property. This is almost impossible. I have managed to do it once though. The cops warned the guy not to come back.. and he was back inside of two weeks.. but by the time I called he was gone so they couldn't do anything. They wouldn't even drive down the street to talk to him again.

The cops said if I had a locked gate it still would require them to see him on my property. I asked if video would help, they said "it might" but I get the impression they aren't going to spend a lot of time and resources on trespassing complaints. I have to agree it's not the crime of the century but it is still annoying to know you can't really keep people off your property unless a cop just happens to be driving by when you call.

As for the mess these guys create? Again, had to be seen by the cops for them to do anything about it.

I don't even bother to call anymore.

Your problem is not a trespassing one, but a misdemeanor one. With few exceptions, police officers can only arrest for a misdemeanor if it is committed in their presence.

I have your solution.

Get a camera and record him getting into your dumpster proving he committed a misdemeanor in YOUR presence. Then perform a citizen's arrest and hog tie his butt and call the police. When they get there, show them the video and explain you want him cited for PC 602.

They will cite him and list you as the arresting party. If the guy fights it in court you will receive a subpoena. You go to court, show them the video...

motorhead
07-17-2009, 10:56 AM
lock the dumpster at night?

we had that issue at my work, then our building manager built a locked fence around the two dumpsters and that stopped the hobos from coming.
more fun to lock it after they climb in. or so i've heard.:43:

Untamed1972
07-17-2009, 11:00 AM
more fun to lock it after they climb in. or so i've heard.:43:

LOL....made me think of building a special dumpster where the lid operated like a big box trap. Dumpster diver climbs in, lid drops, and can only be opened from the outside.....after the police arrive of course. LOL

Lancear15
07-17-2009, 11:46 AM
my home remains private property. if you don't have the current password you're a target with legs. and as i'm constantly reminding female visitors, all who enter are subject to search. oh, and smoking is mandatory!!!

LOL

1923mack
07-17-2009, 2:39 PM
The property is fenced with two semi-gated/access areas. Signs could be placed at both areas. So just simple "No Tresspaing-Private Property" signs ?

odysseus
07-17-2009, 2:48 PM
The property is fenced with two semi-gated/access areas. Signs could be placed at both areas. So just simple "No Tresspaing-Private Property" signs ?

What do you mean by "semi-gated"?

cadurand
07-17-2009, 3:09 PM
Your problem is not a trespassing one, but a misdemeanor one. With few exceptions, police officers can only arrest for a misdemeanor if it is committed in their presence.

I have your solution.

Get a camera and record him getting into your dumpster proving he committed a misdemeanor in YOUR presence. Then perform a citizen's arrest and hog tie his butt and call the police. When they get there, show them the video and explain you want him cited for PC 602.

They will cite him and list you as the arresting party. If the guy fights it in court you will receive a subpoena. You go to court, show them the video...Yeah, this is a common dumpster used for my condo association. Locking it would be a major pain in the butt.. too many people would need keys and they would always lose them.

I was just sharing my experience related to 602.

It's not the end of the world, just an annoyance. I asked the cops about the whole citizen's arrest thing. They were very much against the idea. Almost to the point that they seemed like they would rather arrest me for doing it. Not worth the risks.. I don't really want people to end up in jail or even court. I just want them to stop making a mess. That will just require us owners being a little more vigilant. It all happens during the day when most of us are at work is the real problem.

But my problem is still a trespassing issue. If the cops don't see it, they aren't going to(or can't) do anything about it. You can have all the signs you like. If the area is open to the public you're screwed.

1923mack
07-17-2009, 4:10 PM
Semi-gated. We have gates that are closeable. But typically they are left open. UPS can deliver to the front door wtihout buzzing for us to open the front gate.

Glock22Fan
07-17-2009, 4:31 PM
IIRC, and it is true under UK law and, I believe, US law, then one can prevent a footpath (or other route) from becoming a public right of way by locking it (denying public access) for one 24 hour period at lease once in each year (365 day period). Once it has become a Public Right of Way, it remains one barring a Court Order to the contrary (and usually, an alternative access needs to be provided).

Seems to me that a public mall would do this if the gates were locked once each year, perhaps on Christmas day. Under British law, if they fail to establish that this is the case, I believe that the public has the right to cut away locks and permit themselves access at any time whatsoever. Indeed, the Ramblers' Association has been known to do exactly that and gotten away with it.

Also seems to me, although I am not Theseus's lawyer, that that might apply to his case as well. No doubt his attorney has considered it.

Or, maybe, I'm talking out of the top of my hat.

M198
07-17-2009, 4:49 PM
Trespassing is one of my pet peeves here in San Jose. It's basically unenforcable in almost all cases.

I have a problem with people going through my dumpsters looking for cans and bottles. That activity by itself I really don't mind. But some of these people make a terrible mess which I then have to clean up or pay to have cleaned up.

The city says that my signs are all in order but enforcing 602 isn't going to happen unless they cops actually SEE the person on my property. This is almost impossible. I have managed to do it once though. The cops warned the guy not to come back.. and he was back inside of two weeks.. but by the time I called he was gone so they couldn't do anything. They wouldn't even drive down the street to talk to him again.

The cops said if I had a locked gate it still would require them to see him on my property. I asked if video would help, they said "it might" but I get the impression they aren't going to spend a lot of time and resources on trespassing complaints. I have to agree it's not the crime of the century but it is still annoying to know you can't really keep people off your property unless a cop just happens to be driving by when you call.

As for the mess these guys create? Again, had to be seen by the cops for them to do anything about it.

I don't even bother to call anymore.

unload a can of pepper spray in the dumpster right before they usually come. When they open that lid, they are not going to have a nice time.

Theseus
07-17-2009, 6:58 PM
Let me say it again, "Private Property" signs does not make property private property and thus not a public place!

The parking lot I was located in was private property and was marked so.

To make property not a "public place" you must physically restrict entry. No other means will satisfy "public place" issue.

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2009, 8:05 PM
Let me say it again, "Private Property" signs does not make property private property and thus not a public place!

The parking lot I was located in was private property and was marked so.

To make property not a "public place" you must physically restrict entry. No other means will satisfy "public place" issue.

Parking lots are open to the public.


It is similar to Walmart suing those street vendors.

Walmart tried to kick street vendors off their "private property" but the courts ruled that because the parking lot was open to the public it was a public place and they could not restrict access.


Please show to me how if I place a "No trespassing" sign on my property and I do not run a business how it is a "public place" under the law. I also don't mean about "common areas" in apartment complexes. I am talking about non-fenced private property marked with "No trespassing signs".

Glock22Fan
07-17-2009, 9:51 PM
Let me say it again, "Private Property" signs does not make property private property and thus not a public place!

The parking lot I was located in was private property and was marked so.

To make property not a "public place" you must physically restrict entry. No other means will satisfy "public place" issue.


Oh, I hadn't realized that you weren't inside the mall. I see that that might make a difference, unless the parking lot is also locked up occasionally.

frankiejoe577
07-18-2009, 12:37 AM
Tell them to leave, tell them its private property, if they don't leave when you say this, arrest them for trespassing. Call the police and let them know you have made a private persons arrest and ask for an officer to respond.

FreedomIsNotFree
07-18-2009, 12:57 AM
They have to see the person because 602 is a misdemeanor. For them to arrest the crime must be committed in their presence.

BUT.....you are legally entitled to perform a citizens arrest and hold them for the police and under CA law they cannot refuse to receive the prisoner. HOWEVER....beware....if you make a citizens arrest YOU are liable for making sure it was done properly and according to the law.

This changed a few years back. The legislature changed the law and gave LEO's discretion on when to cite/book and when not to. Before that change it was actually a felony for a LEO to refuse to book a person placed under citizens arrest.

Theseus
07-18-2009, 3:27 AM
Oh, I hadn't realized that you weren't inside the mall. I see that that might make a difference, unless the parking lot is also locked up occasionally.

I would have been, but it is illegal to smoke inside a business so I was smoking a cigarette.

Had I actually been in the business I would have been exempt, but they would have forcibly removed me from the business and I would likely be in the same predicament.

And E Plur. . . If you there isn't a fence around it, it likely isn't considered private in the means of 12031.

1923mack
07-18-2009, 8:38 PM
I think the 1 day per year thing is in reguards to easements. If you do not use an easement at least once year, you can eventually loose the easement. Closing access and other once per year things may have evolved from that. Lawyers love precedence.

MrClamperSir
07-19-2009, 9:43 AM
Have read in a few threads where part of ones private property (front yard or other location) was considered public area. CCW is legal on ones private property, but not public property (and public area?). Is there any signage that we can post on our property to eliminate the possibilty of our private property being considered public area? Is "Keep Out" or "Do Not Tresspass" enough or do we need a 3 sentance "thing" to do this?

If you are on your property and carrying concealed, what's the problem? Why ask about signs?

glockman19
07-19-2009, 9:57 AM
Now...what if the parking were underground and did have gated/restricted entry? When you take the ticket it is basically a release of liability for the property owner.

So...Let's say it's the Glendale Galleria, Century City Mall, or another gated restricted entry?

It is Private property, it is gated/restricted entry, Public parking is permitted.

1923mack
07-20-2009, 7:43 AM
"if you are on your property and carrying concealed, whats the problem? Why ask about signs?"

You are using common sence, but we live in California. Other members are being hassled while carrying on private property. Provate property is being classifiied as common ground or public place or some other classisification that removes it from the private property classification. Once it is "reclasisified", your need a CCW to carry concealed.

I am looking to see if there is any good signage to prevent some lawyer from being able to "reclassify" my private proerty to some type of public area.

MrClamperSir
07-20-2009, 9:08 AM
"if you are on your property and carrying concealed, whats the problem? Why ask about signs?"

You are using common sence, but we live in California. Other members are being hassled while carrying on private property. Provate property is being classifiied as common ground or public place or some other classisification that removes it from the private property classification. Once it is "reclasisified", your need a CCW to carry concealed.

I am looking to see if there is any good signage to prevent some lawyer from being able to "reclassify" my private proerty to some type of public area.

Other members as in CG members? And what do you mean hassled? Are people being arrested or just catching some grief from a local LEA?

N6ATF
07-20-2009, 10:25 AM
Other members as in CG members? And what do you mean hassled? Are people being arrested or just catching some grief from a local LEA?

Yes. Search for "Theseus & LA UOC". Private property doesn't exist in the eyes of his JUDGE.

frankym
07-20-2009, 11:44 AM
I am a property manager and a while back had issues with homeless sleeping in the back of the shopping center (in the parking lot). The police told me they couldn't do anything since it is a public parking lot. However, they said that if I i put up certain signs, (I forgot what they said exactly but something along the lines of this is private property), they could arrest the people sleeping there. Wouldn't this is imply that the parking lot became private property by putting those signs up?

KylaGWolf
07-20-2009, 12:50 PM
I think the 1 day per year thing is in reguards to easements. If you do not use an easement at least once year, you can eventually loose the easement. Closing access and other once per year things may have evolved from that. Lawyers love precedence.

Actually nope in the UK if it is a public right away a fence is a non issue. Anyone can cut and remove the fence to use the right away and no crime committed. The reason I know this is RAF Upper Heyford had a old roman road that was considered a public right away right through the middle of the runway area. The protesters would cut the fence and walk through and wasn't a thing the military (at the time was US Air Force controlled) could do until they actually vandalized a F-111 aircraft.

MrClamperSir
07-20-2009, 9:16 PM
Yes. Search for "Theseus & LA UOC". Private property doesn't exist in the eyes of his JUDGE.

OK, I read ALL 35 pages, but it doesn't address my questions in context. The OP is carrying concealed, which draws about 99.9% less attention than open carry, also he is asking about his own property. From what I gathered in the link you provided Theseus was on private property, not his own and open to the public. It did not state whether or not he had specific permission from the owner. As I understand the law you may carry concealed on your own property and in your own business or with the specific permission of the owner of that property or business. Your own business is open to the public. Am I missing something here?

E Pluribus Unum
07-21-2009, 12:49 AM
And E Plur. . . If you there isn't a fence around it, it likely isn't considered private in the means of 12031.

I do not agree with that statement, however I believe it would be moot. Penal Code 602 makes it a misdemeanor for any person to enter posted "no trespassing" areas. A LEO would be bound by this as well unless he were investigating a crime. Absent any PC to even enter the property he would have no cause to contact you and search you for a weapon.

locosway
07-21-2009, 1:41 AM
For 602 all you have to tell the cops is you have signs stating no trespassing which are clearly visible and that you would like to perform a citizens arrest and that you will press charges. They have to take a person into custody which has been placed under citizens arrest, they can not refuse. We did it all the time to people when I worked security.

E Pluribus Unum
07-21-2009, 1:46 AM
For 602 all you have to tell the cops is you have signs stating no trespassing which are clearly visible and that you would like to perform a citizens arrest and that you will press charges. They have to take a person into custody which has been placed under citizens arrest, they can not refuse. We did it all the time to people when I worked security.

As has been previously mentioned, the law was changed. It is now up to officer discretion as to whether they take the arrested person into custody.

locosway
07-21-2009, 1:50 AM
As has been previously mentioned, the law was changed. It is now up to officer discretion as to whether they take the arrested person into custody.

Well, they're just pissing all over the average citizen, aren't they?

N6ATF
07-21-2009, 1:57 AM
Well, they're just pissing all over the average citizen, aren't they?

This is news? Screwing the law-abiding in favor of criminals?

1923mack
07-21-2009, 9:43 AM
There was another case where a man was on his front porch armed, investigating strange noises and was severly hassled by the police, there was a report of a gunman in the area, but police overreacted. He was not arrested, but came close. If he has been close to the sidewalk he might have been charged with carrying. Signage to have front yard private area and not public area is what I am thinking about.