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bootless
07-16-2009, 1:47 AM
I will be visiting Nevada soon. If I purchase a shotgun in Nevada does it have to be sent to a FFL in CA? The gun is CA legal (pump shotgun). I know this is true for handguns but a couple of gun shops in CA have told me differently.

Acorn556
07-16-2009, 4:07 AM
yes. dont plan on going to a gun show or meeting a guy for a ftf transaction. you cannot buy a firearm out of state without shipping it to a local ffl

Quiet
07-16-2009, 8:30 AM
Federal laws requires any firearm purchased out-of-state by a non-licensed CA resident to be transfered through CA FFL dealer.



US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

bootless
07-16-2009, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the info, I figured as much. Don't know why my local shop was telling me otherwise

cousinkix1953
07-16-2009, 1:02 PM
You know that we have too many gun laws; when many people don't know what they are talking about. We get lots of BS from the DoJ too...

OCArmory
07-16-2009, 1:10 PM
OK I'll go out on the limb here. You are allowed by federal law to purchase a rifle or shotgun in a state other that the one you reside in. when you fill out the 4473 you would still put California as your residence. Some states have laws that prohibit this. I am not sure about Nevada. See section B sub section 3 of your quote above.
Mike

Man I hope I'm not wrong

Quiet
07-16-2009, 1:36 PM
OK I'll go out on the limb here. You are allowed by federal law to purchase a rifle or shotgun in a state other that the one you reside in. when you fill out the 4473 you would still put California as your residence. Some states have laws that prohibit this. I am not sure about Nevada. See section B sub section 3 of your quote above.
Mike

Man I hope I'm not wrong
Fed law says long gun sales have to abide by the laws of both states.
CA state law says it needs to go through a CA FFL.

halifax
07-16-2009, 2:12 PM
Fed law says long gun sales have to abide by the laws of both states.
CA state law says it needs to go through a CA FFL.

This is true, but I know for a fact that some dealers in other states are un-aware of CA laws or don't care. They will gladly sell you a long gun.

Librarian
07-16-2009, 4:33 PM
This is true, but I know for a fact that some dealers in other states are un-aware of CA laws or don't care. They will gladly sell you a long gun.

This is also true of many private sellers.

We had a long go-round about this earlier this year.

The penalty for the seller or dealer in this kind of transaction is $10,000 or 5 years in Federal prison. The penalty for the unlicensed buyer, presuming no conspiracy, is nothing - it's not a crime to buy, though it would be a crime to bring to one's home state.

As with any kind of transaction governed by state and Federal laws, it's clearly the duty of a seller to become informed on those things which may affect him/her. Does one, as a buyer with no risk, have a 'moral high ground' to impose the risk of a Federal felony conviction on an unaware seller?

I say definitely not. I say doing such a thing is reprehensible, cruel, and unjustified by any possible set of facts.

Risk yourself, if you must. Conspire to commit the crime, so both participants are on even footing, if you insist on the crime.

But don't set up someone else to take the fall.

halifax
07-16-2009, 5:19 PM
This is also true of many private sellers.

We had a long go-round about this earlier this year.

The penalty for the seller or dealer in this kind of transaction is $10,000 or 5 years in Federal prison. The penalty for the unlicensed buyer, presuming no conspiracy, is nothing - it's not a crime to buy, though it would be a crime to bring to one's home state.

As with any kind of transaction governed by state and Federal laws, it's clearly the duty of a seller to become informed on those things which may affect him/her. Does one, as a buyer with no risk, have a 'moral high ground' to impose the risk of a Federal felony conviction on an unaware seller?

I say definitely not. I say doing such a thing is reprehensible, cruel, and unjustified by any possible set of facts.

Risk yourself, if you must. Conspire to commit the crime, so both participants are on even footing, if you insist on the crime.

But don't set up someone else to take the fall.

The buyers I'm talking about haven't a clue that what they did was illegal. I suppose their thinking (if they were thinking) was the seller must have known what he was doing, after all, he is the FFL.

kemasa
07-17-2009, 8:37 AM
In theory, it does not need to go through a CA dealer, but the CA laws must be followed, which means that the DROS must be submitted. So, if a bordering state FFL were to get all of the required permits/licenses (if they could) to be able to submit a DROS, then they could make the sale. Quite clearly a FFL out of state is not going to bother doing that as the return on investment (assuming it could be done at all), would not be worth it.

Quiet
07-17-2009, 12:30 PM
Out-of-state FFL dealers are not allowed access to CA DROS.

kemasa
07-18-2009, 9:29 AM
Where does it say that out of state FFLs are not allowed access to the CA DROS system? There are certain conditions which must be met in order to get access. Have you checked to see if it is impossible or are you just assuming it because there is little reason for an out of state FFL to get all of the required permits.

Quiet
07-18-2009, 3:27 PM
Where does it say that out of state FFLs are not allowed access to the CA DROS system? There are certain conditions which must be met in order to get access. Have you checked to see if it is impossible or are you just assuming it because there is little reason for an out of state FFL to get all of the required permits.

There are certain conditions.
Need to meet the definition of a "dealer" in PC 12071(a), in order to be able to do a Dealer's Record Of Sale (DROS).

Penal Code 12071
(a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).
(2) The duly constituted licensing authority of a city, county, or a city and county shall accept applications for, and may grant licenses permitting, licensees to sell firearms at retail within the city, county, or city and county. The duly constituted licensing authority shall inform applicants who are denied licenses of the reasons for the denial in writing.
(3) No license shall be granted to any applicant who fails to provide a copy of his or her valid federal firearms license, valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization, and the certificate of eligibility described in paragraph (4).
(4) A person may request a certificate of eligibility from the Department of Justice and the Department of Justice shall issue a certificate to an applicant if the department's records indicate that the applicant is not a person who is prohibited from possessing firearms.
(5) The department shall adopt regulations to administer the certificate of eligibility program and shall recover the full costs of administering the program by imposing fees assessed to applicants who apply for those certificates.
(6) A license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority of any city, county, or city and county, shall be valid for not more than one year from the date of issuance and shall be in one of the following forms:
(A) In the form prescribed by the Attorney General.
(B) A regulatory or business license that states on its face "Valid for Retail Sales of Firearms" and is endorsed by the signature of the issuing authority.
(C) A letter from the duly constituted licensing authority having primary jurisdiction for the applicant's intended business location stating that the jurisdiction does not require any form of regulatory or business license or does not otherwise restrict or regulate the sale of firearms.
(7) Local licensing authorities may assess fees to recover their full costs of processing applications for licenses.

kemasa
07-19-2009, 7:30 AM
Yes, and where does it say that the business must be located in CA?

swmprat
07-25-2009, 2:23 AM
What does DROS mean.

ke6guj
07-25-2009, 2:52 AM
DROS = Dealer record of Sale. The 4473 gets filled out and the CA paperwork initiating the background check and the 10-day wait.

swmprat
07-25-2009, 2:55 AM
ke6guj,

Thanks for the info.

tenpercentfirearms
07-25-2009, 12:51 PM
So, could a smart out of state business get registered with the CFD system and DROS long guns out of state? Sell people assault weapons and have assault weapon storage too!

Mssr. Eleganté
07-25-2009, 1:42 PM
So, could a smart out of state business get registered with the CFD system and DROS long guns out of state? Sell people assault weapons and have assault weapon storage too!

I think assault weapons would be out because "the sale, delivery, and receipt (must) fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States." But regular rifles and shotguns would be fine. One problem might be that the application for the Centralized List of Firearms Dealers asks for "Licensee Name - Exactly as name appears on California Driver License or Identification Card.." But this might be "underground regulation" since there is nothing in the law that says Californa Dealers must be residents of California.