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jdcooper
07-15-2009, 6:53 PM
I am attempting to buy ammunition from another private party who lives in Nevada. He went to UPS to ship the ammunition and was told that they are prohibited from shipping to SF.

I cannot find the statute that prohibits ammunition sales by mail into San Francisco. I know that Proposition H did so, but it was overturned.

The only statute I can find on the subject of ammunition is

ARTICLE 9: MISCELLANEOUS CONDUCT REGULATIONS
Sec. 615. Records of Ammunition Sales.

Which governs record-keeping by SF ammunition vendors.

Can anyone document for me which specific law precludes the shipment of ammunition by a private party into San Francisco? Because I don't think it exists.

Jon

Legasat
07-15-2009, 6:58 PM
I believe this is a City Ordinance, not State Law.

jdcooper
07-15-2009, 7:27 PM
Yep. I cannot find evidence that such an ordinance currently exists.

The municipal code is searchable at: http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?sid=5&browseAllCodes=San%20Francisco

Redhawker
07-15-2009, 7:36 PM
I believe this is it...

SEC. 3601A. PENALTY FOR SALE, DISTRIBUTION, TRANSFER, AND MANUFACTURE OF FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION OR POSSESSION OF HANDGUNS WITHIN CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO.
(a) In enacting Proposition "H" the voters required the Board of Supervisors to enact penalties for its violation. The following sections set forth the penalties for violation of Proposition H.
(b) Any person who shall violate the provisions of Police Code Section 3600A that prohibit the sale, distribution, transfer and manufacture of all firearms and ammunition within the limits of the City and County of San Francisco or that prohibit the possession of any handgun within the limits of the City and County of San Francisco shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $1,000 and by imprisonment in the County Jail not to exceed six months, or by both.
(c) Any firearm or ammunition sold, distributed, transferred, or manufactured or any handgun possessed within the City and County of San Francisco in violation of the provisions of Police Code Section 3600A is hereby declared to be a nuisance, and shall be surrendered to the Police Department of the City and County of San Francisco. The Chief of Police is authorized to seize such firearms, ammunition and handguns and shall destroy or cause to be destroyed such firearms, ammunition and handguns, except upon the certificate of a judge of a court of record, or of the District Attorney that the preservation thereof is necessary or proper to the ends of justice.
(d) This Section shall be enforced to the full extent of the authority of the City and County of San Francisco. If any subsection, sentence, clause, phrase, or word of this Section or the application thereof to any person or circumstances is held invalid or unconstitutional, such invalidity or unconstitutionality shall not affect other provisions or applications of this Section which can be given effect without the invalid or unconstitutional provision or application. To this end, the provisions of this section shall be deemed severable.
(Added by Ord. 55-06, File No. 060151, App. 3/31/2006)

Stan_Humphries
07-15-2009, 7:47 PM
Prop. H was overturned by the Cal. Ct. App.

SF appealed to the Cal. Sup. Ct., but they declined to take the appeal.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-15-2009, 9:32 PM
The only statute I can find on the subject of ammunition is

ARTICLE 9: MISCELLANEOUS CONDUCT REGULATIONS
Sec. 615. Records of Ammunition Sales.

Which governs record-keeping by SF ammunition vendors.

Can anyone document for me which specific law precludes the shipment of ammunition by a private party into San Francisco? Because I don't think it exists.

The section of the law that stops some people from shipping ammo into San Francisco is the very section that you mention. Some people feel that when ammo is ordered by somebody in San Francisco and then delivered to somebody in San Francisco that the sale has come close enough to taking place in San Francisco that they don't want to risk getting in trouble. And since the law defines "Vendor" as "any person engaged in the sale of firearm ammunition", it would effect private parties as well.

SEC. 615. RECORDS OF AMMUNITION SALES.

(a)(4) "Vendor," as used in this Section, shall mean any person who is engaged in the sale of firearm ammunition, including any retail firearms dealer.

The thing I find hard to believe is that UPS told the guy he couldn't ship. I'd call BS on that. I have never ever heard of a case where UPS blocked an ammo shipment to any of the "no ammo" cities. The seller probably just got cold feet about shipping the ammo to San Francisco and decided to blame UPS so you wouldn't think he was chicken. There is a slight chance that the UPS counter person was some gun guy who reads the Sportsman's Guide catalog and its shipping restrictions and thought he would take the law into his own hands. If that's the case then your seller can always just do a UPS web ship label online and give the package to the first UPS driver he sees.

bigcalidave
07-15-2009, 9:54 PM
Who the hell goes into UPS and says "I would like to ship this ammo!" geez. I bring it in packaged, labeled "gears"

Mssr. Eleganté
07-15-2009, 10:40 PM
Who the hell goes into UPS and says "I would like to ship this ammo!" geez. I bring it in packaged, labeled "gears"

By law, you have to put the "ORM-D CARTRIDGES, SMALL ARMS" marking on the outer packaging. DOT can come down on you hard (tens of thousands of dollars hard) if you get caught offering up an ORM-D shipment without properly labeling it.

jdcooper
07-15-2009, 10:55 PM
The section of the law that stops some people from shipping ammo into San Francisco is the very section that you mention. Some people feel that when ammo is ordered by somebody in San Francisco and then delivered to somebody in San Francisco that the sale has come close enough to taking place in San Francisco that they don't want to risk getting in trouble. And since the law defines "Vendor" as "any person engaged in the sale of firearm ammunition", it would effect private parties as well.

At the margin, though, if I provide documentation as defined by that section and the package is marked as you describe in your other post, it seems that such a shipment is legal.

I will call UPS corporate tomorrow and ask them, and report back here.

Jon

navyinrwanda
07-16-2009, 2:33 AM
SF Muni Code 615 only requires limited record-keeping, and only for two years. First violation is an infraction punishable by a max $100 fine.

The ordinance doesn't require any more information than would be provided on a buyer's driver's license. Most (all?) ammo dealers require a copy of the buyer's driver's license anyway.

So I've never quite understood what the problem would be with shipping ammo to San Francisco — other than a general fear of California...

Mssr. Eleganté
07-16-2009, 6:13 AM
SF Muni Code 615 only requires limited record-keeping, and only for two years. First violation is an infraction punishable by a max $100 fine.

The ordinance doesn't require any more information than would be provided on a buyer's driver's license. Most (all?) ammo dealers require a copy of the buyer's driver's license anyway.

So I've never quite understood what the problem would be with shipping ammo to San Francisco — other than a general fear of California...

In this thread we were only talking about a private party selling some ammo, so the Section 615 record keeping provisions are the only thing to worry about. But for ammo vendors who are in the business of selling ammo, they also have to worry about Section 613...

SEC. 613. REGULATING SALE OF FIREARMS.

It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or dealer engaging in the business of selling, leasing or otherwise transferring any firearm, firearms ammunition, or firearms ammunition component to sell, lease or otherwise transfer any firearm, firearms ammunition or firearms ammunition component without first having obtained a license from the San Francisco Police Department. The Department shall make available application forms requiring applicants to provide the information set forth in Section 613.2, and shall collect a nonrefundable application fee from each applicant.

jdcooper
07-16-2009, 8:27 AM
In this thread we were only talking about a private party selling some ammo, so the Section 615 record keeping provisions are the only thing to worry about. But for ammo vendors who are in the business of selling ammo, they also have to worry about Section 613...

So the private-party question turns on the meaning of the phrase bolded below:


SEC. 613. REGULATING SALE OF FIREARMS.

It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or dealer engaging in the business of selling, leasing or otherwise transferring any firearm, firearms ammunition, or firearms ammunition component to sell, lease or otherwise transfer any firearm, firearms ammunition or firearms ammunition component without first having obtained a license from the San Francisco Police Department. The Department shall make available application forms requiring applicants to provide the information set forth in Section 613.2, and shall collect a nonrefundable application fee from each applicant.


Is there established doctrine for what 'engaging' as opposed to 'who engages' means? Should it be defined somewhere in this document?

I read 'engaging' (IANAL) to mean a recurring pattern of behavior rather than a one-off.

Jon

Greg-Dawg
07-16-2009, 8:29 AM
What about getting it delivered outside of SF city limits?

bodger
07-16-2009, 8:43 AM
What about getting it delivered outside of SF city limits?

Like to your new home in a free state maybe.:43:

navyinrwanda
07-16-2009, 3:51 PM
Section 613 is pretty clearly aimed at businesses with a physical operating location within the city limits — and is written with the assumption that the dealer is primarily a full-fledged FFL selling firearms.

But it also has the usual prohibition on selling all sorts of non-FMJ ammo, including listing the "usual suspects" by name.

I can easily understand why an out-of-state business would prefer not to deal with anyone in the City of San Francisco — no matter what they sell! So have your ammo delivered to a friend's house in another county. That would certainly be in keeping with both the spirit and intent of the ordinance, as there is no prohibition against an individual transporting his own personal ammunition into the city limits.

rivviepop
07-16-2009, 5:36 PM
Find another UPS location, the rules of what they will and won't do vary between where you go. UPS Stores (not the hubs) are franchises, apparently, so the actual franchisee can limit what they will and won't do. I live here and I have to go to the main hub to ship ammo out -- most of the UPS workers are like "let me go ask my manager" but they do it once they learn their job and they even have the ORM-D stickers. One UPS wouldn't let me ship a firearm to a fabricating shop so I went to another and they had no problem at all. I receive UPS ammo from out of state vendors without a problem as well.