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wilson_wwsc
07-14-2009, 7:25 PM
Is it legal for me to use (lethal) force to defend my pets against another animal, say an invading pet in my backyard?
I would obviously not be using a firearm that uses explosive powder, just an air gun.
Whats the law on this?

Thanks!
I do understand that this is Calguns, not a court of law, so I understand that any advice I get here may not be held accountable to anyone here.

Brutish
07-14-2009, 7:32 PM
If by lethal, you mean lethal force on the dog and not a human being, then sure, go for it if that dog is seriously harming or killing your dog.

wilson_wwsc
07-14-2009, 7:35 PM
I figured most people would assume enemy dog versus my dog, so I used "pet." The situation is someone's cat is eating my koi in one of my ponds, and me and my parents are getting pissed. So far, the cat, or possibly, cats, have eliminated about 15 of my fish. :mad:

Blue
07-14-2009, 7:37 PM
Trap the cat and take it to the pound.

glockman19
07-14-2009, 7:50 PM
It is likely not a cat...unless you've seen it. I have friends with koi ponds. One ha a racoon, the other a oppossum and one had a large bird, crane like.
My bet is on a bird or racoon.

goober
07-14-2009, 7:54 PM
racoons will have a field day (well night, actually) on koi...

MrBrent
07-14-2009, 7:55 PM
+1 on the Racoons or the large crane type birds. My friend has a pond as well and he has seen this happen in his back yard.

capntroy
07-14-2009, 7:57 PM
Trap the cat and take it to a pond.

Fixed it fer ya.....:p

Angie
07-14-2009, 7:57 PM
Maybe put a net above the pond?

Pond Netting (http://pondsolutions.com/pond-nets.htm)

Spitfire75
07-14-2009, 7:58 PM
I have a family friend in Huntington Beach who has a koi pond in his back yard. His fish kept disappearing and you'll never guess who the culprit was...Herons. Great big white herons. So he put a flexible plastic mesh-like material around the pond to keep the birds out. That worked pretty good until one day one of the herons got into the pond and couldn't get out again...I wasn't there but apparently that bird went apes*&# trying to get out and the fence had to be rebuilt.

Fjold
07-14-2009, 8:01 PM
I lost hundreds of dollars worth of Koi to egrets and herons. The cats in the neighborhood never got them. Of course, the Border Collie hates cat so they didn't come around much.

Fate
07-14-2009, 8:06 PM
To herons/racoons, those koi are fish in a barrel... ;)

socaldsal
07-14-2009, 8:09 PM
Cats probably won't be able to get to the Koi, you'd be more likely to see them face down in the water if they were stubborn enough to keep trying. My buddy said it was a "big ***** bird" that was the problem, I never asked what kind of bird.

tiko
07-14-2009, 8:17 PM
I did ask this question to 2 different deputies (the ones I know but not my friends) and they all say shoot the cats and make sure they could not go back to their house (troubles), one deputy even told me that he used 22LR rifle kill one cat and his neighbors not even noticed. But they are officers, they can get away easy, not us!

capntroy
07-14-2009, 8:41 PM
Sounds like it's time to call StorkBusters!

RomanDad
07-14-2009, 8:49 PM
I have a koi pond.... Ive been hit by both Raccoons and Herons (BIG BIRDS!).

If you discover your fish are missing, but nothing else is disturbed- Thats a Heron. And Im fairly certain the are a protected species.

If you discover your fish are missing and it looks like a 500 pound man took a bath in your pond and got his fat *** stuck in the bottom, couldnt get out, panicked and destroyed everything in a ten foot radius- Thats a raccoon.

You need one of these (http://www.exoticwaterscapes.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=34). I installed one and never had a problem again....

Heres a photo of my pond the day it was installed.... I probably should have waited for the water to settle before I snapped the photo.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/MovieLawyer/post-17-1189804661.jpg

SJgunguy24
07-14-2009, 8:53 PM
I got one for you. A guy has a female dog who's in heat. The house directly behind him has a dog that has now jumped the fence to get to the female dog.
The guy is outside attending to his garden, the dog see's him and attacks.
What do you do?

wilson_wwsc
07-14-2009, 9:11 PM
Haha, thanks for all the replies.
I doubt it is a coon because I've never seen one around here (Elk Grove). I live in an area with no fields around, its all developed.
I have never seen a heron around here either, although it is possible as there is the Stone Lake wild life reserve a few miles away.
My fish are disappearing from my shallow pond, which is above ground with about 20in of water. My deeper pond, which goes down 4ft has never had problems, except for frogs and toads eating up all my fish's eggs and fry.
But, the question remains, if I camp outside tonight, and see a cat, coon, or a non-endangered species, besides human, attacking my fish, can I shoot it?

Edit: of course I CAN shoot it; MAY I shoot it? I saw the post about LEO's shooting them, but I'm no leo.

Brutish
07-14-2009, 9:15 PM
I have never seen a heron around here either, although it is possible as there is the Stone Lake wild life reserve a few miles away.

Birds can FLY. There are countless egrets and herons in the area around the rice fields, etc.

Meplat
07-14-2009, 9:15 PM
I got one for you. A guy has a female dog who's in heat. The house directly behind him has a dog that has now jumped the fence to get to the female dog.
The guy is outside attending to his garden, the dog see's him and attacks.
What do you do?

What I do is reach in my back pocket and apply one .22 LR bullet from my NAA Mini to the offending animal; repeat as necessary.:43:

He, on the other hand may have had to apply whatever garden implement he had in his hand.:confused:

CHS
07-14-2009, 9:20 PM
Looks like you've already found the answer.

Get a deeper pond.

wilson_wwsc
07-14-2009, 9:20 PM
Birds can FLY. There are countless egrets and herons in the area around the rice fields, etc.

Yes, but perhaps I was incomplete in my description of the problem.
The fish seem to disappear only at night, and according to a previous research paper I did on herons and egrets, they are dinural animals. I also have a small/medium dog, but he seems not to bark at cats.

croc4
07-14-2009, 9:20 PM
Racoons tend to travel via the sewers in the city, I've seen entire families crawl out from the sewers here in santa clara. They tend to come out late at night (2am ish or so) so I hope you have plently of coffee handy.

I would place some traps out and once caught, give them a badly needed injection of pb from your choice of despenser...........


Croc4

jlmurphy
07-14-2009, 9:26 PM
+1 on the Scarecrow, it will frighten away birds, cats, and coyotes, but the racoons just use it as a shower. We have Great Blue Herons here and I am certain that they have more rights and better representation than you, the racoons, on the other hand, not so much.

River Jack
07-14-2009, 9:42 PM
I've had ponds for the past 7 years or so. I don't keep expensive koi for the reasons stated above (as I knew what would likely happen to them) but cheap goldfish to actually feed the birds. I love it when I see great blue herons, great egrets, cattle egrets, snowy egrets, black-crowned night herons, green herons, etc. foraging in my pond. In fact, I've always considered my ponds giant bird feeders, bird baths, habitat for whatever wildlife finds it. I welcome all birds, mammals, amphibians, reptiles, etc. that make their way into my yard. The kids love it too.

I do, however, understand the frustration you are facing. I certainly wouldn't want any of my expensive pets being eaten or stolen by anything or anyone. Have you considered an automatic sprinker (rain bird type) on a motion sensor? Comes on and squirts the birds, cats, etc. that attempt to raid your pond. They work really well for that type of thing. A friend of mine is a professional pond designer/creator. He uses them himself at his elaborate personal set up with lots of very nice koi.

On the legal end, I'm pretty sure that it is unlawful to shoot non-game birds such as herons and egrets (your most likely culprits), as they are federally protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and also state protected by Fish and Game code. I think you can get a license to shoot racoons however. The city you live in, however, may have an ordinance against shooting air rifles (and firearms) within city limits. You should check that before the neighbors report you.

Good luck. PM me if you want to talk to my friend who designs ponds, etc.

RJ

AHRIMAN
07-14-2009, 10:06 PM
You could put up a cheapo video camera and record overnight to make it easy on you.

psssniper
07-14-2009, 10:35 PM
Trap the cat and throw it in the pond.

fixed :p

JDoe
07-14-2009, 10:41 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/MovieLawyer/post-17-1189804661.jpg

:eek:

rugit
07-14-2009, 10:49 PM
i say just shoot it. i live in cameron park(east of Folsom) and have had to take out "pests" in my ponds or trash cans. but El Dorado county is a little more lax on things like that than Sac county

wilson_wwsc
07-14-2009, 11:38 PM
I do, however, understand the frustration you are facing. I certainly wouldn't want any of my expensive pets being eaten or stolen by anything or anyone. Have you considered an automatic sprinker (rain bird type) on a motion sensor? Comes on and squirts the birds, cats, etc. that attempt to raid your pond. They work really well for that type of thing. A friend of mine is a professional pond designer/creator. He uses them himself at his elaborate personal set up with lots of very nice koi.



RJ

I've never heard of these sprinklers till now, I will definately look into them.
I should also mention that the fish in my shallow pond are the less desireable ones (the're dark and hard to see in the deep pond), but I still paid 10$ per 3 fish when I bought them.

I am still very skeptical that it could be a big bird eating my fish though, because I have never seen such a bird around my house or immediate area. Also, like I said, the fish seem to disappear at night.
And, there are no coons around where I live; neighbors agree.

motorhead
07-15-2009, 12:28 AM
we had a prob with escaped hogs rampaging through the property a few years back, neither animal control nor the sherriffs would touch it. both told me in so many words that if they're destroying your property you can use as much force as necessary. animals are property in the eyes of the law.

aplinker
07-15-2009, 12:52 AM
I figured most people would assume enemy dog versus my dog, so I used "pet." The situation is someone's cat is eating my koi in one of my ponds, and me and my parents are getting pissed. So far, the cat, or possibly, cats, have eliminated about 15 of my fish. :mad:

Have you considered mounting freakin lasers on their heads?

They work well on my freakin sharks.

http://i1.tinypic.com/n2omm0.jpg

cousinkix1953
07-15-2009, 1:11 AM
Trap the cat and take it to the pound.
They can track down the legal owner of this cat. Then sue them for thousands of $$$. KOI are not cheap gold fish. Several UC Santa Cruz students were prosecuted, after catching one of these exotic fish in a pond on campus and cooked it for dinner. That practical joke was filmed for MTV's "REEL WORLD" and they got busted...

aethyr
07-15-2009, 1:44 AM
I did ask this question to 2 different deputies (the ones I know but not my friends) and they all say shoot the cats and make sure they could not go back to their house (troubles), one deputy even told me that he used 22LR rifle kill one cat and his neighbors not even noticed. But they are officers, they can get away easy, not us!

Well, here is a related story. An acquaintance had her expensive purebred cat stolen when the cat strayed into a neighbor's yard and the neighbor took it in. She called the cops, but the police said that because the cat strayed into the neighbor's yard, the neighbor could keep it and there was nothing they could do about it. Her only hope is that the cat escapes and wanders back into her yard and steal it back. This may have been a city ordinance, so YMMV.

But if it is applicable to you, when the cat wanders into your yard, you instantly "take possession" of it and simultaneously euthanize it.

cousinkix1953
07-15-2009, 6:04 AM
Well, here is a related story. An acquaintance had her expensive purebred cat stolen when the cat strayed into a neighbor's yard and the neighbor took it in. She called the cops, but the police said that because the cat strayed into the neighbor's yard, the neighbor could keep it and there was nothing they could do about it. Her only hope is that the cat escapes and wanders back into her yard and steal it back. This may have been a city ordinance, so YMMV.

But if it is applicable to you, when the cat wanders into your yard, you instantly "take possession" of it and simultaneously euthanize it.
It's sounds like her cat wasn't licensed. That makes it harder to prove that it was hers in the first place. Otherwise, there is always small claims court and any judge would return a cat to it;s lawful owner...

AJAX22
07-15-2009, 6:24 AM
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/ammo/Aguila_22SSS_box_nam_lg.jpg

liketoshoot
07-15-2009, 6:41 AM
I figured most people would assume enemy dog versus my dog, so I used "pet." The situation is someone's cat is eating my koi in one of my ponds, and me and my parents are getting pissed. So far, the cat, or possibly, cats, have eliminated about 15 of my fish. :mad:

Owl is/was the culprit in my backyard, lost over 20 fish in one year, we too thought it was a cat till I caught a look of it carrying one of them away.
Now we have no fish.

wilson_wwsc
07-15-2009, 7:02 AM
Have you considered mounting freakin lasers on their heads?

They work well on my freakin sharks.

http://i1.tinypic.com/n2omm0.jpg

My dog would just kill freakin everything. Go BRUINS

They can track down the legal owner of this cat. Then sue them for thousands of $$$. KOI are not cheap gold fish. Several UC Santa Cruz students were prosecuted, after catching one of these exotic fish in a pond on campus and cooked it for dinner. That practical joke was filmed for MTV's "REEL WORLD" and they got busted...

That's why they wanted to demote UCSC down to a state school.

Owl is/was the culprit in my backyard, lost over 20 fish in one year, we too thought it was a cat till I caught a look of it carrying one of them away.
Now we have no fish.

wow.. that is sad. I wonder if we can sue the city like cousinkix1953 suggested we could do against the owner of someone's cat?

glockman19
07-15-2009, 7:43 AM
Ironically, I spotted our Racoon as I woke up early thismorning to open the windows and let the cool air in.

He was lumbering across the backyard. He was NOT afraid of me at all. chased him over the fence and watched him go underneath the vacant houses' crawl space.

Q: Do I make a Coon Skin cap? Call animal control? Leave it be?

SmokinMr2
07-15-2009, 8:42 AM
I think the OP's point is that he's a cat hater and just wants to kill one...oh ya, he's got Koi too.

Meanwhile ya really should just find out what's happening to your fish.

AHRIMAN
07-15-2009, 8:53 AM
Here is some info I found regarding this subject from another thread.


From dogbitelaw.com regarding CA.....



3341, subd. 2. Any person on finding any dog or dogs, or other animal, not on the premises of the owner or possessor of such dog or dogs, or other animal, worrying, wounding, or killing any bovine animals, swine, horses, mules, burros, sheep, angora or cashmere goats, may, at the time of finding such dog or dogs, or other animal, kill the same, and the owner or owners thereof shall sustain no action for damages against any person so killing such dog or dogs, or other animal.


"The section [Civil Code sec. 3341] was not intended to, nor does it, abridge the common law right of a person to defend his domestic animals against the attacks of dogs, or to kill such dogs when the circumstances warrant the belief that his property is in peril. At the common law the justification for the killing was complete when it appeared that the dog was engaged in worrying and terrifying domestic animals in their own lawful enclosure, and where the necessity of the killing in order to protect the property was apparent." (Sabin v. Smith (1915) 26 Cal.App. 676, 678-9.)

^ I don't know if this applies to cats or not, but I don;t see why not.

CHS
07-15-2009, 9:10 AM
Set up a webcam with motion-activated recording software and point it at your pond.

Open up the webcam itself and remove the IR cut filter from the sensor and put it all back together. The webcam won't work during the day now, but it'll work amazing at night with just a little light outside. Now you'll be seeing IR + visible light. It's poor-mans night vision and it works very well.

Then just review your nights recordings after a fish goes missing.

movie zombie
07-15-2009, 9:16 AM
raccoons have learned to adapt just like coyotes. they think you've left them a pond of their very own equipped with food. lucky them and unlucky you. call animal control.

mz

CowboyShooter
07-15-2009, 9:25 AM
I figured most people would assume enemy dog versus my dog, so I used "pet." The situation is someone's cat is eating my koi in one of my ponds, and me and my parents are getting pissed. So far, the cat, or possibly, cats, have eliminated about 15 of my fish. :mad:

temporarily replace the koi with piranha...

btw, are you sure it's cats? could be raccoons. sorry about the loss of your koi.

:(

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 9:28 AM
Frankly I am disgusted by those of you who want to shoot neighbors' cats. Shoot at mine (not that you will as they stay indoors) and you'll likely find your Kois poisoned.

You can usually deter cats humanely with a few bursts from one of those power soaker water guns. Catch them a few nights running and they will avoid your place like the plague. Failing that, buy some pond netting and also protect your koi from racoons, coyotes, herons and all the other cats you didn't shoot the first night.

Ahriman quoted this. Can you please tell me which of the highlighted items describes fish? Seems to me that it doesn't protect fish at all.

3341, subd. 2. Any person on finding any dog or dogs, or other animal, not on the premises of the owner or possessor of such dog or dogs, or other animal, worrying, wounding, or killing any bovine animals, swine, horses, mules, burros, sheep, angora or cashmere goats, may, at the time of finding such dog or dogs, or other animal, kill the same, and the owner or owners thereof shall sustain no action for damages against any person so killing such dog or dogs, or other animal.

IGOTDIRT4U
07-15-2009, 9:31 AM
I have a koi pond.... Ive been hit by both Raccoons and Herons (BIG BIRDS!).

If you discover your fish are missing, but nothing else is disturbed- Thats a Heron. And Im fairly certain the are a protected species.

If you discover your fish are missing and it looks like a 500 pound man took a bath in your pond and got his fat *** stuck in the bottom, couldnt get out, panicked and destroyed everything in a ten foot radius- Thats a raccoon.

You need one of these (http://www.exoticwaterscapes.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=34). I installed one and never had a problem again....

Heres a photo of my pond the day it was installed.... I probably should have waited for the water to settle before I snapped the photo.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/MovieLawyer/post-17-1189804661.jpg

RD, are you kidding me? A racoon found your pond the day it was finished?!? lol. And I have never seen a racoon in our area, ever. Now, hawks, thata's a different story. And yotes.

Henry47
07-15-2009, 9:47 AM
for me, the problem was deer. we put up a 7 foot fence around our entire property to keep them out, but they just started jumping over it. at the end, we bought some mesh fence and put it on top of the pond. not the most attractive, but was quite the easiest solution.

Fate
07-15-2009, 10:19 AM
Do you have a neighbor with a new (and well stocked) koi pond? Maybe your fish have been rustled!

ripcurlksm
07-15-2009, 10:22 AM
If you discover your fish are missing and it looks like a 500 pound man took a bath in your pond and got his fat *** stuck in the bottom, couldnt get out, panicked and destroyed everything in a ten foot radius- Thats a raccoon.

haha this is signature worthy... nice one roman! same roman as calccw? :cool2:

RomanDad
07-15-2009, 10:26 AM
RD, are you kidding me? A racoon found your pond the day it was finished?!? lol. And I have never seen a racoon in our area, ever. Now, hawks, thata's a different story. And yotes.

Of course Im kidding..... I took a photo of my pond and posted it on L-power and a buddy of mine responded back with that Pshop and the caption "Looks like somebody else likes your new pond too!" :43:

RomanDad
07-15-2009, 10:27 AM
haha this is signature worthy... nice one roman! same roman as calccw? :cool2:
And about 30 other sites....
There better not be someone else using my handle!

wilson_wwsc
07-15-2009, 10:29 AM
Frankly I am disgusted by those of you who want to shoot neighbors' cats. Shoot at mine (not that you will as they stay indoors) and you'll likely find your Kois poisoned.

You can usually deter cats humanely with a few bursts from one of those power soaker water guns. Catch them a few nights running and they will avoid your place like the plague. Failing that, buy some pond netting and also protect your koi from racoons, coyotes, herons and all the other cats you didn't shoot the first night.

Ahriman quoted this. Can you please tell me which of the highlighted items describes fish? Seems to me that it doesn't protect fish at all.

Are you saying that you are disgusted at people who want to defend their property? If my dog cannot deter a cat, how can a water gun?
And, if I see someone coming onto my property looking to poison my fish, I must assume that you mean to poison my dog and my family too.

boxbro
07-15-2009, 10:29 AM
If you discover your fish are missing and it looks like a 500 pound man took a bath in your pond and got his fat *** stuck in the bottom, couldnt get out, panicked and destroyed everything in a ten foot radius- Thats a raccoon :smilielol5:

RomanDad
07-15-2009, 10:33 AM
I've never heard of these sprinklers till now, I will definately look into them.
I should also mention that the fish in my shallow pond are the less desireable ones (the're dark and hard to see in the deep pond), but I still paid 10$ per 3 fish when I bought them.

I am still very skeptical that it could be a big bird eating my fish though, because I have never seen such a bird around my house or immediate area. Also, like I said, the fish seem to disappear at night.
And, there are no coons around where I live; neighbors agree.
Call Animal Control and see if THEY agree.... When I lived in HOLLYWOOD we had freakin' raccoons. The damned things are everywhere!

Dude.... You live in ELK GROVE.... The Sacramento River runs through the freakin' city.... You have every imaginable form of wildlife living within a few hundred yards of you.... And if your property has a large, relatively safe, fresh water and food source, they KNOW ITS THERE even if you have't seen them.

CHS
07-15-2009, 10:38 AM
Dude.... You live in ELK GROVE.... The Sacramento River runs through the freakin' city.... You have every imaginable form of wildlife living within a few hundred yards of you.... And if your property has a large, relatively safe, fresh water and food source, they KNOW ITS THERE even if you have't seen them.


BWAAHAHAHAHAHA...

I still maintain that if the OP has a pond that's deeper, and those fish are fine, it's not a bird anyways. Probably just a cat or raccoon. And his answer is also staring him in the face.

Get a deeper frickin' pond!


When I lived in HOLLYWOOD, we had FREAKIN' RACCOONS. The damned things are EVERYWHERE!

Yeah, we've got them even in Huntington Beach.

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 11:08 AM
Are you saying that you are disgusted at people who want to defend their property?

No, but I am disgusted at people willing to kill family pets before trying other alternatives.

If my dog cannot deter a cat, how can a water gun?
And, if I see someone coming onto my property looking to poison my fish, I must assume that you mean to poison my dog and my family too.

Maybe I should assume that if you want to shoot my cat (when there are other possibilities and you haven't yet proved that it is my cat doing the deed,) then, by your logic, perhaps I should assume that you want to shoot my dog and my family also.

And yes, water guns are very effective. And pond netting isn't expensive. I have outdoor animals as well, and - as a responsible owner, I protect them from local predators.

Perhaps you'd like to pour gas on my cat and set her on fire too?

Frankly, people taking potshots at neighbors' cats isn't a good way to impress the sheeple that we are responsible people.

stuckinhippytown
07-15-2009, 11:10 AM
You may kill it if its attacking your dog because by law a dog cattle livestock are considered property fluffy just SOL because he is labeled a pet One of the few exceptions to killing a mountain lion is if it is about to attack your property once again sorry fluffy I killed a mountain loin called fish and game and had them pick it up no probs still have my fido though thank god

IGOTDIRT4U
07-15-2009, 11:13 AM
And about 30 other sites....
There better not be someone else using my handle!

Same dog, same Roman! ;)

MasterYong
07-15-2009, 11:28 AM
I'ts pretty clear the OP just wants to shoot the cat and is looking for encouragement.

My argument: the only way it would make sense to shoot the cat would be while the cat was IN THE ACT of taking the fish. You can't just see it in your rose garden and shoot it (or you shouldn't, nothing here is being considered form a legal standpoint). You'd have to shoot it while it was in the pond. So- if he outright wants to shoot the cat, but admits that he's NEVER seen the cat take a fish, then shooting the cat has nothing to do with shooting the fish (or at least it shouldn't).

It's probably just a bird. There are egrets and herons in my area- and there are similar birds of prey anywhere that's within probably 50 miles of any reasonably-sized body of water that contains fish. A net will typically not work, either, as the birds will still be stupid enough to try to get the fish- so you'll end up with a bunch of maimed/dead fish in the pond and a hungry/pissed off bird. If you use a mesh that's small enough you wont be able to really see your fish.

The OP's best bet is either one of those motion-sensor activated water turrets, scarecrows of some kind, OR they can do what my old neighbor did- get a bird dog. They got a cocker spaniel and WHAMMO! No more birds!

....ok so maybe the OP isn't REALLY a crazed, maniacal, blood-thirsty cat-killer. Maybe I was kidding about that part. Maybe. :)

pullnshoot25
07-15-2009, 11:38 AM
Ironically, I spotted our Racoon as I woke up early thismorning to open the windows and let the cool air in.

He was lumbering across the backyard. He was NOT afraid of me at all. chased him over the fence and watched him go underneath the vacant houses' crawl space.

Q: Do I make a Coon Skin cap? Call animal control? Leave it be?

Are you seriously asking? OF COURSE you shoot the bugger! Its not like you bought your guns/bows for show-and-tell!

Shoot the little bastard and have fun!

bden
07-15-2009, 11:44 AM
Frankly I am disgusted by those of you who want to shoot neighbors' cats.

:iagree:

Let's save the guns for the real threats that can't be dealt with in a more evolved manner. I'm sure it sucks losing your fish & it's gotta be very frustrating, but there are a few avenues you could explore before resorting to an air rifle or .22 on someone's pet. Just imagine if someone shot your dog because it chased their cat.

I live in a suburb/residential area completely surrounded by houses, strip malls, and all those other wonderful city things that seem to be as pervasive as weeds. We've had a mole, many squirrels & opossums (including babies), and a few raccoons here in our yard. It's possible. My dad who also lives in the burbs had a cat that was attacked by a raccoon last year. The result was ugly to say the least.

If you've got a gun wielding maniac in your kitchen by all means let him have it, but a cat is a domesticated animal acting on instinct who is no less a family member to someone else than your dog is to you. At the very least give something other than your gun a shot at redirecting the thing's behaviors.

I've used this on our cats and dog in the house & it works wonderfully. Scares the heck out of the cats especially. With a pond that small it would probably work wonders, possibly on other critters as well. Set up a video camera & you just might win $10,000 when you get great footage of a cat/raccoon/heron/big bird/zombie getting the crap scared out of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Premier-SSSCAT-Automated-Cat-Deterrent-Kit/dp/B0002XI7CI

28121

pullnshoot25
07-15-2009, 11:45 AM
Here is my take: If there is an unwarranted heartbeat in/near/around your koi pond and the heartbeat is not protected by law, then a subsonic .22/arrow shaft/ air rifle pellet to end said heartbeat and a shallow grave to hide it should do the trick.

Isn't pest management fun? :)

N6ATF
07-15-2009, 11:48 AM
Are you saying that you are disgusted at people who want to defend their property? If my dog cannot deter a cat, how can a water gun?
And, if I see someone coming onto my property looking to poison my fish, I must assume that you mean to poison my dog and my family too.

LOL @ water guns deterring cats. I've used water guns and even hoses with the jet stream nozzle attached, at full pressure. Cat keeps coming back to be blasted away again... and again... and again... I've even put cayenne pepper powder in the areas where it usually defecates... that doesn't stop it either. Traps? It laughs at them, doesn't even touch the bait food. Carpet runners turned pointy end up? No problem. Rocks thrown at the bottom of the fence when it's on top? No fear. Skunks? Sparring partners.

Sometimes, you need to test the seeming invincibility of the ferals.

hoozaru
07-15-2009, 12:00 PM
add a flower horn, an alligator mouth/gar, and any Asian Arrowana to your pond

no bird, cat or racoon will ever go near that pond again.

drutledge79
07-15-2009, 1:15 PM
I've got two wild and crazy ideas:

1) Figure out what is eating/killing/whatever your fish. Not only is it heartless and somewhat disturbing you want to kill someone's pet, but you have zero proof it is the cat. WTF?

2) In the event that it actually is your neighbors cat, how about you camo up, grab the extra mags and go ring your neighbors doorbell and TALK to them about it. Jesus. Tell them the situation. Give them a chance to work it out along with taking some steps of your own that doesn't involve killing someone's pet.


If it isn't the cat -- legality aside -- do whatever you want. Possum, raccoon, bird whatever. Shoot it, electrocute it, poison it. Who cares. Personally I'd go the route that didn't cause undue stress on the animal, but whatever. I would agree that it is damn frustrating to have to put up with this kind of crap, but that's life. You have to lock your car, lock up your house, keep all your personal information a secret from the low-lifes out there. That's just how it is. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

~dave

Lyte-
07-15-2009, 1:37 PM
if it turns out to be someone's cat I would hope that you would contact the owner with proof and give them the chance to make it right.

If my cat was stealing someone's fish I would gladly pay for the missing fish and pay to have a net put over the pond to protect it.

if you have an outdoor cat you can't control where it goes but as its owner I know I am responsible for any damage she does.


Now if the owner brushes you off then i would contact animal control and directive from them.

MasterYong
07-15-2009, 1:41 PM
If it isn't the cat -- legality aside -- do whatever you want. Possum, raccoon, bird whatever. Shoot it, electrocute it, poison it. Who cares. Personally I'd go the route that didn't cause undue stress on the animal, but whatever. I would agree that it is damn frustrating to have to put up with this kind of crap, but that's life. You have to lock your car, lock up your house, keep all your personal information a secret from the low-lifes out there. That's just how it is. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

~dave

LOL I love that you're comparing a cat/bird/raccoon/whatever to a criminal low-life. You're right too, that's why it's funny. You gotta deal with the undesirables EVERYWHERE you look!

Seriously though this guy does need to be careful if it's someone's pet. I would defend my pet's lives with the same ferocity that I would defend a member of my family's life. If he shoots the cat, he better hope his neighbors weren't too attached to it.

Alaric
07-15-2009, 1:44 PM
I've met PNS once before, at a Calguns shoot, and he seemed like a stand up guy to me. Maybe a little too over exuberant, but a nice enough guy, certainly not a bloodlusting killer. That said, how would you know if the "ferals" are really feral and not someones' pet? No collar? My cat doesn't wear a collar as he could get it snagged on a fence he's crossing and end up hanging to death.

I agree that other alternatives should be explored prior to shooting a cat. That should be saved as a last resort. The OP does seem to want to find justification for killing a cat, and seems over eager to rule out other possible animals ('coons) and other means of resolving the issue (water guns). The poster who said we need to avoid giving the impression that us gun owners are irresponsible with our guns was dead-on. With great firepower comes greater responsibility. This cat-killing issue is exactly the sort of fodder anti-gunners like to grab hold of to take our rights away. It speaks to the masses, "those irresponsible gun owners just want to be able to kill defenseless kitty cats who take $3 fish". I could totally see an editorial in the The Chronicle with that title. We all should work to avoid the mistaken impression that we are bloodthirsty cat killers.

bden
07-15-2009, 1:48 PM
I would defend my pet's lives with the same ferocity that I would defend a member of my family's life.

Me too. Enough said.

MasterYong
07-15-2009, 1:52 PM
With great firepower comes greater responsibility.

Stan Lee would like to have a word with you.

Alaric
07-15-2009, 1:56 PM
Stan Lee would like to have a word with you.

He didn't say "firepower". :p

AHRIMAN
07-15-2009, 1:58 PM
Trap the cat, take it to the pound. If it's somebodies pet they deserve to lose it one way or another for not controlling it and inconveniencing the people around them. If it is indeed a cat(WHICH IS STILL TO BE CONFIRMED) would you guys act differently if it were a dog(perhaps a pitbull), and it was in your backyard eating your expensive fish? What if it was eating your cat? Just because it's a cat(ALLEGEDLY) and able to jump over fences and creep into peoples yard does not mean it gets any more slack than the rest of the pets out there.

ETA: I still think he needs to confirm what is ACTUALLY the cause of the problem step 1.

Lyte-
07-15-2009, 1:59 PM
I've met PNS once before, at a Calguns shoot, and he seemed like a stand up guy to me. Maybe a little too over exuberant, but a nice enough guy, certainly not a bloodlusting killer. That said, how would you know if the "ferals" are really feral and not someones' pet? No collar? My cat doesn't wear a collar as he could get it snagged on a fence he's crossing and end up hanging to death.

I agree that other alternatives should be explored prior to shooting a cat. That should be saved as a last resort. The OP does seem to want to find justification for killing a cat, and seems over eager to rule out other possible animals ('coons) and other means of resolving the issue (water guns). The poster who said we need to avoid giving the impression that us gun owners are irresponsible with our guns was dead-on. With great firepower comes greater responsibility. This cat-killing issue is exactly the sort of fodder anti-gunners like to grab hold of to take our rights away. It speaks to the masses, "those irresponsible gun owners just want to be able to kill defenseless kitty cats who take $3 fish". I could totally see an editorial in the The Chronicle with that title. We all should work to avoid the mistaken impression that we are bloodthirsty cat killers.


My cat wears a special collar designed to break away under any real pressure (like if she was to get snagged on something) it was fairly cheap you might want to look into it. I don't want someone thinking she is a stray so the collar makes sure people know she has a owner (she even has a name tag on with my # in case someone is to find her or her collar)

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 2:13 PM
If it was a dog in my back yard trying to eat my cats, horses, chickens, whatever, it would first get blasted with a sonic blaster (very loud ultrasonic noise), then a pepper spray, possibly a water hose, and only then would I get out a gun. All of these are readily to hand. I've been attacked by dogs before, while walking my dogs, and I've never needed to go past the sonic blaster. Then I report the dog to animal control and complain to the owner if I know who that is.

A coyote, mountain lion or rattlesnake wouldn't get the first two options.

A cat, which might have cost its owner some $1500, certainly wouldn't get shot unless it was rabid or viciously attacking, say, a baby. Certainly not for eating even a dozen $3.00 fishes. Equally, I'd pay you for your fish if my cat ate them.

And yes, I shoot pests such as ground squirrels. I don't do so for fun, I do so because they are destructive vermin.

AHRIMAN
07-15-2009, 2:15 PM
Koi can run into the hundreds of dollars a piece. By the way, what is this "sonic blaster" of which you speak, sounds handy?

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 2:24 PM
Koi can run into the hundreds of dollars a piece. By the way, what is this "sonic blaster" of which you speak, sounds handy?

I know koi can cost hundreds, but they also need deep ponds, in which apparently the OP has no problems with lost fish.

Unless I've read it wrong, the fish he is losing are in a shallow pond and cost 3 for $10.00.

I just did a quick search, here's one dog scarer (http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Dazer-II-repeller-training/dp/B000E7KVQ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1247692905&sr=8-3) that came up. Don't know how good this one is, but there are a lot of others. Some of them incorporate a flashlight, useful at night.

River Jack
07-15-2009, 2:27 PM
Not a cat hater here, as I don't believe the cats are the real problem. I do, however, feel that in cases where someone's cat is damaging someone else's property (whether it be digging in the flower garden, eating their belonging [i.e., pets], urinating on their doormat, etc.) the problem is the irresponsible cat owner. Pet cats are possessions, just like a domestic dog, horse, snake, turtle, etc. People that own/keep cats need to wake up and accept the responsibility that comes with cat ownership. Cat owners should not be allowed to let their animals roam free, damage property, etc. Why cats aren't subject to the same leash laws that other animals are is beyond me. I don't think cat ownership should be outlawed, but feel that steps should be taken to prevent the free roaming of any domestic animal. I applaud cat owners that realize this and keep their cat indoors or somehow on their own property. Keeping your cat is your right, but keep it to yourself. I can't legally let my python, schnauzer, or miniature horse roam the neighborhood. Why should it be legal to allow cats to roam freely?

Rant off.

AHRIMAN
07-15-2009, 2:34 PM
I just did a quick search, here's one dog scarer (http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Dazer-II-repeller-training/dp/B000E7KVQ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1247692905&sr=8-3) that came up. Don't know how good this one is, but there are a lot of others. Some of them incorporate a flashlight, useful at night.

Which one do you use? I'd rather look into one somebody has a review on.

Alaric
07-15-2009, 2:42 PM
Not a cat hater here, as I don't believe the cats are the real problem. I do, however, feel that in cases where someone's cat is damaging someone else's property (whether it be digging in the flower garden, eating their belonging [i.e., pets], urinating on their doormat, etc.) the problem is the irresponsible cat owner. Pet cats are possessions, just like a domestic dog, horse, snake, turtle, etc. People that own/keep cats need to wake up and accept the responsibility that comes with cat ownership. Cat owners should not be allowed to let their animals roam free, damage property, etc. Why cats aren't subject to the same leash laws that other animals are is beyond me. I don't think cat ownership should be outlawed, but feel that steps should be taken to prevent the free roaming of any domestic animal. I applaud cat owners that realize this and keep their cat indoors or somehow on their own property. Keeping your cat is your right, but keep it to yourself. I can't legally let my python, schnauzer, or miniature horse roam the neighborhood. Why should it be legal to allow cats to roam freely?

Rant off.

Speaking for myself, my cat does stay on my property, tall chain link fences keep him inside. It's the smaller fences around my vegetable garden and flower beds that make me worried about his collar getting caught (even a breakaway type). I agree, cats shouldn't be allowed to roam at will. The damage they do to native wildlife like birds is reason enough to keep them confined. AFAIK, cats are subject to leash laws too, and in some areas are subject to the same license requirements as dogs. Some people just choose to be irresponsible with their cats under the misguided justification that "it's just a cat".

Lancear15
07-15-2009, 2:44 PM
Maybe I should assume that if you want to shoot my cat (when there are other possibilities and you haven't yet proved that it is my cat doing the deed,) then, by your logic, perhaps I should assume that you want to shoot my dog and my family also.

Frankly, people taking potshots at neighbors' cats isn't a good way to impress the sheeple that we are responsible people.

If you don't want your cat shot don't let them roam into my backyard. Same with your dog and family

kalguns
07-15-2009, 2:51 PM
Pet are consider property like a shovel or a hairdrier. However you might piss-off some PETA ***-wipe and then it gets into animal crulity. Shovels donít have a bunch of liberals with nothing better to do then look out for their shovel rights.

Lancear15
07-15-2009, 3:03 PM
install a sentry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JvxnrzB1Jk&feature=related

SmokinMr2
07-15-2009, 3:15 PM
If you don't want your cat shot don't let them roam into my backyard. Same with your dog and family

Internet tough guys all are about the same..

So you'd shoot someone for roaming into your backyard?

You do realise there are folks out there in the "real world" that think more of their animals than your petty human rights don't you?

There's also folks that read this site just looking for gun toting wack jobs. Guess they found one...

bden
07-15-2009, 3:15 PM
If you don't want your cat shot don't let them roam into my backyard. Same with your dog and family

So you're the one the anti's are right about!

Alaric
07-15-2009, 3:26 PM
If you don't want your cat shot don't let them roam into my backyard. Same with your dog and family

So what you're saying is you're either 12 years old and trolling the internet or you had your gun rights revoked when they 5150'd you?

You do realize that shooting trespassers is NOT legal. You could even get into very hot water for just detaining trespassers on your property. I hope you do your research into the legality of your actions before you wind up in prison.

Lyte-
07-15-2009, 3:31 PM
If you don't want your cat shot don't let them roam into my backyard. Same with your dog and family

thatís like trying to keep a dog from pissing on a fire hydrant, tree, bush, fence post, or a random spot on the grass were a female dog just peeíd on

AHRIMAN
07-15-2009, 4:02 PM
If you don't want your cat shot don't let them roam into my backyard. Same with your dog and family

What would happen if my horse roamed into your backyard?
:beatdeadhorse5:




:p

MasterYong
07-15-2009, 4:17 PM
Internet tough guys all are about the same..

So you'd shoot someone for roaming into your backyard?

You do realise there are folks out there in the "real world" that think more of their animals than your petty human rights don't you?

There's also folks that read this site just looking for gun toting wack jobs. Guess they found one...

Doooooooood....

Don't feed the :troll:s

If he was serious then God help him...

wilson_wwsc
07-15-2009, 4:28 PM
Well, I never had the intention of shooting someone's cat if I didn't witness it grabbing at my fishes. That's why I watned to camp out last night until about 2 or 3 am to see what it was, but I couldn't. At about 1am, I heard my dog barking and running around the backyard, and he only barks at things in the backyard and people walking by outside on the street. I might actually dump a few fish in my shallow pond tomorrow or today and camp out and see what happens.
Let me make it clear that I do not dislike cats. I actually enjoy them very much, but again, the question is, is it legal for me to defend my pet against another pet by using force.
My koi were 3 dollars and change when I bought them, but since then, have grown into very large fish, and by the pricing method of the shop I bought them at, would be worth at least 200 bucks. I also have many fry that have grown up to be big fish.
It seems that many people that think I'm a crazed cat killer also believe that fish are not equal with larger animals, such as cats or dogs.
If the city of Elk Grove will give me a trap for free, I will set it out.
Please also note, to all you ragers out there, that my question was not "What should I do about the thing eating my fish," but, "Is it legal for me to defend my pets."

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 4:36 PM
Around here cats aren't safe roaming around, they last a few days to a week or two before the coyotes get them. Responsible cat owners do keep their cats indoors but, guess what, sometimes they slip past you and get out anyway.

However, I think that there has been a tradition that cats are allowed to roam freely. Many cat owners still think that this is how cats should live. Education is the answer, not gunfire.

The dog scarer I'm using at present is a "Shoo Plus with light" from Classic Products. I can't remember where I got it. Doesn't seem too strong, as it lets the dogs approach a little closer than I like, but it still keeps them beyond arms' length.

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 5:22 PM
I would say that post #41 answered your question as to the legality.
I would also suggest just documenting, ideally with video or photo what is the cause of your missing Koi. That way should anything arise, you have proof. Hopefully, once you identify the cause, you can review some of the good non-lethal ideas presented on this thread.

Just for the record, post #41 includes:

3341, subd. 2. Any person on finding any dog or dogs, or other animal, not on the premises of the owner or possessor of such dog or dogs, or other animal, worrying, wounding, or killing any bovine animals, swine, horses, mules, burros, sheep, angora or cashmere goats, may, at the time of finding such dog or dogs, or other animal, kill the same, and the owner or owners thereof shall sustain no action for damages against any person so killing such dog or dogs, or other animal.

As fish don't fall into the section I highlighted, then it would be unwise to rely on this section to defend yourself against killing any dog or other animal for molesting them. So, I recommend the persuit of non-lethal ideas, as presented above.

wilson_wwsc
07-15-2009, 5:25 PM
Just for the record, post #41 includes:



As fish don't fall into the section I highlighted, then it would be unwise to rely on this section to defend yourself against killing any dog or other animal for molesting them. So, I recommend the persuit of non-lethal ideas, as presented above.

Yeah, fish are not mentioned. =(

Edit: who do I ask in my city for an animal trap? (Elk Grove, CA)

Glock22Fan
07-15-2009, 6:47 PM
Yeah, fish are not mentioned. =(

Edit: who do I ask in my city for an animal trap? (Elk Grove, CA)

If you can't get one from the city, look in your local feed stores (if you have any) or on-line for Havaheart traps. They come in various sizes for various critters. Don't know how well they work on cats, but the various sizes work well for rats, squirrels, rabbits etc.

thempopresense
07-15-2009, 9:11 PM
Cat's "Play" in water, they don't go in it. Animal traps are not that expensive, just make sure you get some thick and long leather gloves. Peanut butter and apples work for raccoons. Web cam or sprinkler would be your best choices.

Don't kill someone's pet for following it's instincts, you have something that looks like fun to the animal. trap it and take it to the pound, the owner will get sick of paying the fee's and start keeping it indoors.

dirtyJ
07-15-2009, 11:08 PM
If you happen to see it or catch it and it's a fairly large but young long haired orange and white cat, or an older white cat with collar, please let me know. Someone's been killing/relocating cats out of my neighborhood in Elk Grove and if it's either of those two cats I'll come get them. One is mine and one is my neighbors.

pullnshoot25
07-16-2009, 1:32 AM
If you happen to see it or catch it and it's a fairly large but young long haired orange and white cat, or an older white cat with collar, please let me know. Someone's been killing/relocating cats out of my neighborhood in Elk Grove and if it's either of those two cats I'll come get them. One is mine and one is my neighbors.

Bastard!

technique
07-16-2009, 1:37 AM
If you happen to see it or catch it and it's a fairly large but young long haired orange and white cat, or an older white cat with collar, please let me know. Someone's been killing/relocating cats out of my neighborhood in Elk Grove and if it's either of those two cats I'll come get them. One is mine and one is my neighbors.

Actually man, can you tell me more about what HE looks like? I just took in a stray that was "Dropped off" a while back. He was one of two. I will try to take a pic of him tomorrow. I have been feeding him and put a collar on him.

I am in the Sac area and I have seen a lot of strays lately.....I just happened to like this one.

dirtyJ
07-17-2009, 12:22 AM
Actually man, can you tell me more about what HE looks like? I just took in a stray that was "Dropped off" a while back. He was one of two. I will try to take a pic of him tomorrow. I have been feeding him and put a collar on him.

I am in the Sac area and I have seen a lot of strays lately.....I just happened to like this one.

This is my d00d. He's been missing since the middle of April. The other cat is all white with a collar, not sure of the name or anything else.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2082/d00dchillin01.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/d00dchillin01.jpg/)

locosway
07-17-2009, 12:30 AM
AFAIK under law cats are not considered property like a dog or live stock.

technique
07-17-2009, 12:37 AM
This is my d00d. He's been missing since the middle of April. The other cat is all white with a collar, not sure of the name or anything else.


DirtyJ,

Not him. I wish it was but its not. Sorry to get your hopes up.

GoodEyeSniper
07-17-2009, 12:48 AM
+1 on the Racoons or the large crane type birds. My friend has a pond as well and he has seen this happen in his back yard.

things are vicious
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6379/bunnahawwwww.jpg

N6ATF
07-17-2009, 1:19 AM
Great, I'm going to have nightmares tonight. Thanks!



JK

dirtyJ
07-17-2009, 1:27 AM
DirtyJ,

Not him. I wish it was but its not. Sorry to get your hopes up.

No worries, I'm not surprised. If you do happen to see one like him though, please let me know asap. Also see if you can find out who drops him off, assuming that happens. I've got some pretty harsh words, and other things, in mind for whoever took/killed him once I find them.

sholling
07-17-2009, 8:16 AM
I figured most people would assume enemy dog versus my dog, so I used "pet." The situation is someone's cat is eating my koi in one of my ponds, and me and my parents are getting pissed. So far, the cat, or possibly, cats, have eliminated about 15 of my fish. :mad:
It's one thing to shoot a dog or mountain lion to protect the family dog. But if you shoot a cat to protect a fish there's a good chance that you will be charged with animal cruelty. Especially if it's somebody's cat. You might win but you might not and animal cruelty is a pretty heavy charge and even if you win your legal bills will make that the most expensive koi in California.

1JimMarch
07-17-2009, 9:26 AM
Directly relevant:

http://www.rhjunior.com/TH/00139.html

cal3gunner
07-17-2009, 10:42 AM
Shoot, Shovel, Shut UP!!!

Years ago, when I was in probably Jr High school, I had a fixed female cat that lived outside. It spend most of its time on our property and never really went that far from the house. My neighbors had a male cat that would come over and just shred the cats face and beat the crap out of it. To the point where we are having to doctor up the cat and fix the wounds. We never had pets in the house and always fed them out side.

Our female cat would just watch the other neighbor cats eat her food and then eat whatever was left. The cat didn't look for trouble but the neighbor cat which was much bigger would come over to fight and show dominance.

After trying the hose and other methods, all it took was one well aimed shot with a wrist rocket sling shot. The neighbors came by few days later asking if we had seen the cat. Nope havn't seen it.

The female cat which avoided fights lived to about 16 years old.