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View Full Version : Question about "manufacturing" High Capacity Magazines


boxbro
07-14-2009, 4:13 PM
Back before the now expired federal ban, I "manufactured" a high capacity magazine for a Para Ordnance P12, is this legal to possess in CA ?
If I take it apart to clean it, does reassembling it = manufacturing ?

Let me give a little more detail, I took the mag extension from of one of these for the p14:

http://www.ammoclip.com/images/Para/para_ordnance_p14_45acp_15%20round.jpg

and added it to a regular P12 mag using a modified spring.
This effectively made it 14 +1 and it gave me a more comfortable grip as well.

I am afraid that this would/could be construed as manufacturing even though it was done long before there was any CA law prohibiting it.

Ding126
07-14-2009, 4:18 PM
Hmmm

Glock22Fan
07-14-2009, 4:21 PM
If it was legal to manufacture it when you manufactured it, and it was still in one piece when the laws came into effect, it is legal now, even if you have stripped and rebuilt it since the law passed.

If it was in pieces when the law passed, then it would, IMHO, be illegal to build it into a magazine since then.

This is all complicated by the statute of limitations. If it happened three years or more ago, then it is too late for you to be prosecuted. More recently, they would have to prove it.

boxbro
07-14-2009, 4:53 PM
Well, I haven't even used the mag in over ten years since I don't have a P12 anymore.
But, finding and reading a LOT of things on this forum made me more paranoid aware of things, so I recently took it apart.
That way worst case scenario it would just be parts.
I have been considering getting a P12 again, which is why I asked this question.
I'd like to use that mag exclusively.

Here's my next question, I technically can't get a replacement spring since the spring was a MacGyvered spring to begin with.
How would I replace that spring since it was never available from the factory and can't be bough as a part or in any rebuild kit ?

Glock22Fan
07-14-2009, 5:06 PM
Can't help with the spring, but if you have had the magazine for over ten years you should be good to go, assembled or not. However, if you do not have a P12, then the magazine might as well be dismantled. Not necessary, but it might avoid drama if your house is ever searched by ignorant cops.

boxbro
07-14-2009, 5:30 PM
So basically I am screwed if I ever need to replace the spring ?
It's a shortened spring from an extended P14 mag which would be a replacement part, but does cutting it and modifying it constitute manufacturing ?
There is no law against "manufacturing" parts is there ?

Fjold
07-14-2009, 5:33 PM
I'm trying to understand this, Was it already a 12 round magazine that you owned prior to Jan 1, 2000?

If it was, then you can add an extension and make it a 100 round magazine if you want, it's already a "high capacity magazine"

boxbro
07-14-2009, 5:45 PM
I'm trying to understand this, Was it already a 12 round magazine that you owned prior to Jan 1, 2000?

Why yes, YES IT WAS!
That's all that was available at the time anyhow!

If it was, then you can add an extension and make it a 100 round magazine if you want, it's already a "high capacity magazine"

Is that how it works ?
So I can MacGyver any high capacity mag into anything I want using real factory parts or parts I make ?
Simply because they were already high capacity mags ?
In addition, I can take another High capacity extended P14 mag and a high capacity P12 mag and make another one ?
What if I want to change it back since I wouldn't want to permanently lose one of my 15+1 P14 mags ?

curtisfong
07-14-2009, 5:50 PM
assembling != manufacturing

bwiese
07-14-2009, 6:13 PM
Boxbro,

You already had a hicap mag you legally owned/acquired in CA (pre 2000).
You increased its capacity from 12 to 14.

There's only one level of "high-capacityness" (over 10rds), and you already legally had it: you can't make it "more high capacity" from a legal standpoint.

There are no additional levels or tiers of hicap status: the threshold has already been crossed.

You could have done this before or after 2000 and it would not have been relevant.

A high capacity ammunition feeding device is just that. If you have one and modify it to fit a new gun - but it still functions in the old gun for which it was designed and was legally acquired/possessed - that's fine.

I would add that destroying the old functionality to make it work in a new gun could risk being regarded as manufacturing/creating a new hicap mag.

69Mach1
07-14-2009, 6:24 PM
Usually a +2 baseplate for a high cap magazine doesn't require a new spring. You can use the existing one. If you give Paraordnance a call, they will probably send you a P12 spring.

motorhead
07-15-2009, 12:02 AM
manufacturing a replacement spring is not manufacturing a magazine. even if the mag was molded out of black tar heroin you could still make a spring for it. the spring, by itself would be legal, the mag not. midway has wolff p14 mag springs.

boxbro
07-15-2009, 8:21 AM
I would add that destroying the old functionality to make it work in a new gun could risk being regarded as manufacturing/creating a new hicap mag.

When you say new gun, are you saying "different" gun ?
IOW, different gun than the magazine was originally intended for ?
Reason I ask is because I would be using this in a "new" P12, not the old P12 I originally used it in.

boxbro
07-15-2009, 8:24 AM
Usually a +2 baseplate for a high cap magazine doesn't require a new spring. You can use the existing one. If you give Paraordnance a call, they will probably send you a P12 spring.

IIRC, the P12 spring was not strong enough to feed the last round properly, and the P14 spring was too big to get the 14th round into the mag.

E Pluribus Unum
07-15-2009, 9:49 AM
Back before the now expired federal ban, I "manufactured" a high capacity magazine for a Para Ordnance P12, is this legal to possess in CA ?
If I take it apart to clean it, does reassembling it = manufacturing ?

Let me give a little more detail, I took the mag extension from of one of these for the p14:

http://www.ammoclip.com/images/Para/para_ordnance_p14_45acp_15%20round.jpg

and added it to a regular P12 mag using a modified spring.
This effectively made it 14 +1 and it gave me a more comfortable grip as well.

I am afraid that this would/could be construed as manufacturing even though it was done long before there was any CA law prohibiting it.

The federal ban expired in 2004. It is now 2009. This means that even if what you did was illegal, the statute of limitations has expired and you are exempt from prosecution anyway. Also, because possession is legal... they are legit to use.

bwiese
07-15-2009, 9:59 AM
When you say new gun, are you saying "different" gun ?
IOW, different gun than the magazine was originally intended for ?
Reason I ask is because I would be using this in a "new" P12, not the old P12 I originally used it in.

Well, if your P12=>P14'd mag would not work in a P12 anymore, that could be interesting.

I was really speaking of situation where you modded a legal, say, S&W hicap mag to work, say, in a Sig - but which would not longer work in the S&W.

boxbro
07-15-2009, 10:08 AM
Well, if your P12=>P14'd mag would not work in a P12 anymore, that could be interesting.

I was really speaking of situation where you modded a legal, say, S&W hicap mag to work, say, in a Sig - but which would not longer work in the S&W.

OK, that's what I thought you were saying. :)
As long as the P12 mag still works in a P12 it's good, but if it were altered so that it would work in a gun that it wouldn't normally work in, that would be a bad.
What if I used a P14 mag in a P12 ?
It wouldn't require any modification, but it technically wouldn't be the gun it was intended for.

bwiese
07-15-2009, 10:29 AM
OK, that's what I thought you were saying. :)
As long as the P12 mag still works in a P12 it's good...


Yup, indeed.


but if it were altered so that it would work in a gun that
it wouldn't normally work in, that would be a bad.

Not quite: If it were modified to work in another different gun but still was able to function in the original gun(s) for which it was designed.

Problems could arise if you lose functionality in the original gun(s) for which it was designed after the conversion.

What if I used a P14 mag in a P12 ?

Fair deal. Use a hicap in anything that can run it (unless it's a fixed mag setup, which triggers assault weapons status.) There is no prohibition on misapplication of a hicap magazine.

There's also no real prohibition on misapplying a lowcap (10 or less rds) mag as a hicap in another caliber.

boxbro
07-15-2009, 10:55 AM
There's also no real prohibition on misapplying a lowcap (10 or less rds) mag as a hicap in another caliber.

So for example, a 10 round .45 mag being used as a 9MM mag that holds more than 10 is OK, as long as it can still function in the .45 it was designed for ? (not sure that would even be possible but for the sake of the discussion)

PEBKAC
07-15-2009, 11:06 AM
So for example, a 10 round .45 mag being used as a 9MM mag that holds more than 10 is OK, as long as it can still function in the .45 it was designed for ? (not sure that would even be possible but for the sake of the discussion)
A more possible example would probably be a 10 round .50 Beowulf mag filled with 5.56 ammunition.

E Pluribus Unum
07-15-2009, 11:16 AM
So for example, a 10 round .45 mag being used as a 9MM mag that holds more than 10 is OK, as long as it can still function in the .45 it was designed for ? (not sure that would even be possible but for the sake of the discussion)

That is not settled law... and is very shaky....

The argument may prove valid. Otherwise, what is to stop the prosecution of a person who has a 10 round M1A magazine and the prosecution stuffs it full of 15 .223 rounds and calls it a "high capacity magazine".

Playing devil's advocate however I could very easily see them use our own logic against us. An AR15 with evil features and detachable magazine is legal if it has a .22LR conversion kit installed because it changes the Caliber from a center fire to a rim fire. One could argue that as soon as you fill a .308 magazine with .223 and place it into a functional firearm, it in essence is a high capacity magazine regardless of the magazine's original design to hold .308.

69Mach1
07-15-2009, 11:19 AM
IIRC, the P12 spring was not strong enough to feed the last round properly, and the P14 spring was too big to get the 14th round into the mag.

Then get a Paraordnance P13 spring. In 1994, the Federal high cap ban took effect, preventing the manufacture and sale of higher than 10 round mags to the public. All new high capacity mags produced after that date were marked with "military and law enforcement use only" and you could not posses them if you could get a hold of them. But it also grandfathered all of the high caps made before it. You could own them, sell them, give them away, and build them up to any capacity you wanted. Even just tubes were considered preban high cap mags to be built up later on. In 2000, CA passed it's own high cap mag ban making it a crime to import, sell, transfer, and manufacture any new high cap mag, but again this ban grandfathered the ones you owned before the ban took effect. Possession is not illegal.

bwiese
07-15-2009, 11:27 AM
The argument may prove valid. Otherwise, what is to stop the prosecution of a person who has a 10 round M1A magazine and the prosecution stuffs it full of 15 .223 rounds and calls it a "high capacity magazine".

We already have valuable depoisitions, and acknowledgements, taken in Hunt case that show unclarity about magazine capacity. Prime example is long shotgun tube magazines holding, say, 7 rounds of 3.5" shells that can accept over 10 of a shorter length. (Yes, there are shells that are under 2-3/4" length.)

It is indeed helpful if the mag is marked with caliber (or brand/model of gun with unique caliber) - the "sold as" is valuable. This is much like the flash hider/muzzle brake issue - since there's no real valid standard, what the device is sold as/marketed as/marked with counts.

Remember that just about every locap magazine out there is a hicap mag in another caliber.

A 10rd 458SOCOM mag, marked with that caliber, is entirely legal to buy and possess and use. It would be legal to use with a fixed-mag configuration with evil features and, of course, a 458SOCOM upper.

A 10rd 458 SOCOM magazine will also hold 30rds of 223/5.56. I believe it would be entirely legal to misapply it as such, as there's no crime.

I would of course NOT, however, use that as a FIXED mag with a 223 upper attached, as we play with two separate mag definitions then - the 12020(c) hicap mag definition and the fixed mag AW description.

E Pluribus Unum
07-15-2009, 11:33 AM
A 10rd 458 SOCOM magazine will also hold 30rds of 223/5.56. I believe it would be entirely legal to misapply it as such, as there's no crime.

I would of course NOT, however, use that as a FIXED mag with a 223 upper attached, as we play with two separate mag definitions then - the 12020(c) hicap mag definition and the fixed mag AW description.

Why not? If your argument holds valid, all you have is a .223 rifle with a permanently affixed 10 round 458 Socom magazine.

The fact that it is a .223 upper should not matter if your scenario were true.

I might point out that if a permanently affixed 458 socom magazine is illegal on a .223 rifle, then a 458 socom magazine inserted into a featureless detachable mag build is also illegal because you in essence modified a 10 round magazine into a 30 round magazine by "attaching" it to a .223.

bwiese
07-15-2009, 12:15 PM
Why not? If your argument holds valid, all you have is a .223 rifle with a permanently affixed 10 round 458 Socom magazine.

The fact that it is a .223 upper should not matter if your scenario were true.

Stop being somewhat logical ;) I'm talking about the law.

Remember there are two bodies of law relating to hicap mags: 12020(c) hicap mag laws, vs. the secondary 12276.1PC definition of AW ("semiauto centerfire rifle.

Misapplying a 10rd 458SOCOM in another caliber is fine, for use a detachable-mag rifle. The rifle can use any mag and does not change status, and the question of misapplication only surrounds the magazine itself.

Having that misapplied 458SOCOM mag in a fixed-mag evil-featured semiauto centerfire rifle certainly has the ready capacity to accept more than 10 rds - and in the caliber in which the rifle operates. The fixed mag is part of the rifle and I believe that consideration would override.

Having a 458SOCOM upper on such a rifle would put the dominant use for that fixed mag as 458@10rds - and any misfitting of other calibers would not render the rifle operational: at worst, if charged a lenity outcome would occur (since there's a legit primary outcome for that rifle configuration).





I might point out that if a permanently affixed 458 socom magazine is illegal on a .223 rifle, then a 458 socom magazine inserted into a featureless detachable mag build is also illegal because you in essence modified a 10 round magazine into a 30 round magazine by "attaching" it to a .223.

A detachable magazine is its own entity, esp as marked and with the info we have from Hunt case.

A fixed magazine is part of the rifle and the rifle attributes are likely to be associated w/the mag.

boxbro
07-15-2009, 2:32 PM
Very interesting stuff.
I love this site.
Everyday I come on here and I learn some new things.
It blows my mind sometimes how much there is to know.

E Pluribus Unum
07-15-2009, 2:51 PM
Stop being somewhat logical ;) I'm talking about the law.

Remember there are two bodies of law relating to hicap mags: 12020(c) hicap mag laws, vs. the secondary 12276.1PC definition of AW ("semiauto centerfire rifle.

Misapplying a 10rd 458SOCOM in another caliber is fine, for use a detachable-mag rifle. The rifle can use any mag and does not change status, and the question of misapplication only surrounds the magazine itself.

Having that misapplied 458SOCOM mag in a fixed-mag evil-featured semiauto centerfire rifle certainly has the ready capacity to accept more than 10 rds - and in the caliber in which the rifle operates. The fixed mag is part of the rifle and I believe that consideration would override.

Having a 458SOCOM upper on such a rifle would put the dominant use for that fixed mag as 458@10rds - and any misfitting of other calibers would not render the rifle operational: at worst, if charged a lenity outcome would occur (since there's a legit primary outcome for that rifle configuration).







A detachable magazine is its own entity, esp as marked and with the info we have from Hunt case.

A fixed magazine is part of the rifle and the rifle attributes are likely to be associated w/the mag.

Even if what you are saying is ultimately true, it would be after several years of expensive court battles. We have people getting arrested and prosecuted who have broken no law. This is way too close to the line for my tastes. You are talking about interpretations and assertions that are still up to challenge in court. Just because people like Iggy are idiots and get caught in double talk in one case does not mean that judges wont rule a certain way on another case.

bwiese
07-15-2009, 4:13 PM
Even if what you are saying is ultimately true, it would be after several years of expensive court battles. We have people getting arrested and prosecuted who have broken no law. This is way too close to the line for my tastes. You are talking about interpretations and assertions that are still up to challenge in court. Just because people like Iggy are idiots and get caught in double talk in one case does not mean that judges wont rule a certain way on another case.

We do have Rule of Lenity.

We can defend this case.

E Pluribus Unum
07-15-2009, 4:14 PM
We do have Rule of Lenity.

We can defend this case.

Free of charge?? :)

bwiese
07-15-2009, 4:17 PM
Free of charge?? :)

You know CGF will take on legit cases with no other color.

We can't allow bad law to be made.

Jpach
09-28-2009, 11:38 PM
I gata ask this, Say I use PMAGs for my .458 SOCOM build. Can I fill it with 5.56 since in essence its prime purpose was for my .458 SOCOM? Does the marking on the mag matter or does it just really help to have the marked caliber and capacity on it (like .458 SOCOm 10rds). And remember, really helpful/being smart and being necessary are two different things

bwiese
09-29-2009, 12:16 AM
I gata ask this, Say I use PMAGs for my .458 SOCOM build. Can I fill it with 5.56 since in essence its prime purpose was for my .458 SOCOM?

That behavior is best conducted with magazines marked as 458 SOCOM (floorplate, tube, whatever).

If that 458 mag happens to be later misapplied in another caliber, so be it.
There's nothing that prohibits it.

I'd also own a 458 SOCOM upper just to be on the safe side.

Jpach
09-29-2009, 11:41 AM
Thanks Bweise. I planned on engraving something along the lines of .458 SOCOM 10 rounds on the PMAGs just to make it safer.