PDA

View Full Version : Self Defense Question.


BlackReef
07-14-2009, 2:34 PM
A group of 4-5 guys are following you to your truck late at night, with obvious intentions to jump you.

You are by yourself.

The only noticeable object you can see in their hands are beer bottles.

You have a .40 SW Handgun in your truck.

What do you do?

RomanDad
07-14-2009, 2:36 PM
A group of 4-5 guys are following you to your truck late at night, with obvious intentions to jump you.

You are by yourself.

The only noticeable object you can see in their hands are beer bottles.

You have a .40 SW Handgun in your truck.

What do you do?


I get in the truck and drive away.

woodsman
07-14-2009, 2:38 PM
I get in the truck and drive away.


LOL:clap:

BlackReef
07-14-2009, 2:57 PM
I get in the truck and drive away.

What if their close enough to your truck that they wont allow you to even start the vehicle?

Hans Gruber
07-14-2009, 3:03 PM
What if their close enough to your truck that they wont allow you to even start the vehicle?

If you don't have time to get in and lock the doors, you probably won't have time to access your pistol either.

E Pluribus Unum
07-14-2009, 3:07 PM
A group of 4-5 guys are following you to your truck late at night, with obvious intentions to jump you.

You are by yourself.

The only noticeable object you can see in their hands are beer bottles.

You have a .40 SW Handgun in your truck.

What do you do?

Why waste time thinking about it....


What would I do??


Pull the knife I already have on my person and conceal it in my hand without tipping them off.

Glock22Fan
07-14-2009, 3:09 PM
What would I do?

If I couldn't get to the truck I'd







Panic.

RomanDad
07-14-2009, 3:11 PM
What if their close enough to your truck that they wont allow you to even start the vehicle?

Wait.... Lets go back...


Im being followed. My gun is IN THE TRUCK?

Ok... Either I can get into the truck (where the gun is) or Im pretty much screwed right?

So I have to assume I made it to the truck, or my answer will have to be "I get my *** kicked by four guys with beer bottles" (been there, done that).

Ok, so IF I MADE IT TO THE TRUCK where the gun is, SCREW THE GUN.... The time it takes me to get a gun and use it are about the same as it takes me to jump into the cab and lock the doors.... A 40 caliber bullet has about 500 Ft Lbs of Energy. A pickup truck has about 20,000 times that. So given a choice of weapons, you grab the gun, I'LL GRAB THE WHEEL.... Plus, I'm now wrapped in the relative safety of STEEL AND SAFETY GLASS. Im not exactly sure how these Houdinis of the parking lot are now possessed with the magical abilities that they "wont allow me to even start the vehicle"? But beer bottles no longer pose much of a threat. Theyre outside... Im inside.... And thats the way its going to stay.

I start the car, I throw it into gear, LAY ON THE HORN, and VERY SLOWLY drive away (it doesn't take much speed from a car to convince anybody with a functioning survival instinct to get the %&*# out of the way).... If they are not bright enough to get out of my way, thats on them at that point, because Im sure as hell not going to let them block my exit and threaten to break the windows and pull me from the car causing me great bodily injury or death.

Glock22Fan
07-14-2009, 3:39 PM
Seeing as we are, I think, talking hypotheticals, there's a nice urban legend where some bad guys picked up the back of the car to prevent the driver driving off, only to be thwarted by the car being FWD. The legend says that the driver later found a finger caught under the bumper.

HondaMasterTech
07-14-2009, 3:44 PM
I'd call for help. That's what I'm supposed to do to remain morally superior, right?

JDoe
07-14-2009, 3:55 PM
What if their close enough to your truck that they wont allow you to even start the vehicle?

Does this mean you are able to enter your truck and they are able to physically stop you from starting it?

BlackReef
07-14-2009, 4:00 PM
Does this mean you are able to enter your truck and they are able to physically stop you from starting it?

Correct.

The real point of the original question was to ask what would you do if (4) guys were following you to your truck, where you handgun was located. Lets assume that for some reason, starting the truck and driving away was not an option.

Basically, I wanted to know what your self-defense rights were to use lethal force if you are outnumbered and about to jump you.

professorhard
07-14-2009, 4:02 PM
Well if you feel that your life is in imminent danger, grab the gun and start making kill shots until the threat has stopped.

Glock22Fan
07-14-2009, 4:05 PM
Well if you feel that your life is in imminent danger, grab the gun and start making kill shots until the threat has stopped.

I'd rephrase this to:

If you are convinced that you are at risk of death or serious injury, grab the gun and start making kill shots designed to stop the threat until the threat has stopped.

Remember, you may need to convince a jury of your peers that a reasonable person would also have considered themselves at such risk.

Depending upon how far away they are, you might also want to pause a moment before shooting, to give them chance to see the gun and back down. However, this may not be practicable.

HondaMasterTech
07-14-2009, 4:06 PM
It only matters what the jury thinks. Good luck getting "peers".

Quiet
07-14-2009, 4:24 PM
Options...
#1. Drive away.
#2. Stay in vehicle and call 911.
#3. Stay in vehicle, call 911 and warn off suspects.
#4. Stay in vehicle, call 911, warn off suspects, start shooting when suspects gain entry into vehicle.

:Pirate:

Greg-Dawg
07-14-2009, 4:55 PM
With my Ninja skills: Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop!!! All headshots to the bad guys' craniums.

With my human skills: take the beating and call 911. Make a police report, get taped up at the hospital and apply for a CCW.

Glock22Fan
07-14-2009, 5:03 PM
It only matters what the jury thinks.

Not if the D.A. also agrees and it never comes to a jury

Good luck getting "peers".


I hear you on "peers." These days the people who tend to be on jury panels aren't people I'd usually associate with.

M198
07-14-2009, 5:10 PM
Curve the bullet like they do in WANTED. you can take out all 4 and won't have to worry about hunting for more ammo.

Foghlai
07-14-2009, 5:25 PM
Curve the bullet like they do in WANTED. you can take out all 4 and won't have to worry about hunting for more ammo.

Best answer.

smallshot13
07-14-2009, 5:28 PM
Wait, I think we have missed a couple of steps. 12031 says the pistol is in a locked container. So you need to find the key to the door, unlock the door, find that very small key that goes in that goofy, non functioning lock on the CA approved container, unlock the left and right locks, open up the container, retrieve the .40, find the magazine that was stored seperately, hope that you had the 00 to keep that mag loaded, slam that mag home. Oh wait, your @$$ was grass after step two.

Only perps have rights in CA. Isn't that odd in a State so full of victims?

N6ATF
07-15-2009, 1:25 AM
If you can get to your gun in your truck but not bug out in your truck, I'd say your self-defense rights are unlimited. Considering you'd be a FREAKING JEDI, able to use the force to grab your gun from a distance. Though if you can do that, you might as well just force grip all their bottles into bits, leave them stunned and bleeding from half their hands, get in your truck, bug out, and not have to commit justifiable homicide in self-defense of great bodily injury or death.

:rolleyes:

M47_Dragon
07-15-2009, 1:54 AM
I would run to the bed of my truck (where I keep my shovel), grab said shovel, yell "I'm gonna use this to bury your bodies when I'm done!!" and start swinging away like Manny Ramirez on girlie hormones.

sfwdiy
07-15-2009, 2:30 AM
Wait, if you call the cops, aren't they supposed to instantly show up and protect you? Why would you want a .40? Every evolved person knows that a cell phone is a far better thing to have in such a situation.


/sarcasm.

--B

B.D.Dubloon
07-15-2009, 2:47 AM
There are so many implausibles and not specific enoughs in this scenario it is a tough call. If you have a reasonable fear of injury (serious injury; if one guy throws a bottle at you and you open fire, you're screwed) or death, then you can take steps to prevent that. I'd make damn sure to yell "stay back, I'll shoot" as loud as humanly possible (so hopefully someone in the area hears you) and wait a second before opening up. Make sure not to shoot anyone in the back.

Merc1138
07-15-2009, 3:07 AM
I'd have my knife in my hand, heading for the truck to gtfo. Assuming that the pistol is legally stored like smallshot13 mentioned, it's useless in this scenario.

taloft
07-15-2009, 3:08 AM
Grab the closest knucklehead and gut him like a trout, then hold his spurting corpse up so the others can see what happens to those who touch you. Toss his body at the others and in your best Eastwood voice say, "Alright, which of you ladies is next." All while laughing like a loon.:p:D

J/K

Seriously, if you feel you're in danger of life or limb defend yourself however possible. Sounds to me like a situation you'd find yourself in at a bar parking lot. If that is the case, the DA is going to have a field day if you've been drinking.

RomanDad
07-15-2009, 4:20 AM
Grab the closest knucklehead and gut him like a trout, then hold his spurting corpse up so the others can see what happens to those who touch you. Toss his body at the others and in your best Eastwood voice say, "Alright, which of you ladies is next." All while laughing like a loon.:p:D

J/K


Why are you kidding? The last time I got my *** kicked by four guys in a parking lot, thats how I got it to stop... In the immortal words of Rod Stewart, "The sight of blood dispersed the gang".

taloft
07-15-2009, 5:10 AM
My Clint Eastwood is crappy. Think about it.

JDoe
07-15-2009, 6:15 AM
What if their close enough to your truck that they wont allow you to even start the vehicle?Does this mean you are able to enter your truck and they are able to physically stop you from starting it?Correct.

The real point of the original question was to ask what would you do if (4) guys were following you to your truck, where you handgun was located. Lets assume that for some reason, starting the truck and driving away was not an option.

Basically, I wanted to know what your self-defense rights were to use lethal force if you are outnumbered and about to jump you.

Oh ok. :) Does this answer your question?

Explaining the deadly force decision: "self defense in a nutshell." - part 10 - Lethal Force (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n3_v37/ai_12462185/?tag=untagged)
March, 1992 by Massad Ayoob

... Three criteria must be present to create that condition of immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent. These criteria are ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

By "ability," we mean that the attacker must have at his command the power to kill or cripple. This will typically be some sort of a weapon, but may also include disparity of force.

Disparity of force is the situation that authorizes the law-abiding citizen to shoot what appears to be an unarmed man. In this concept, the law recognizes that the power of the attacker to kill or cripple with "body weapons," fists or feet, may be so great vis-a-vis the defender's stature and ability that this disparity of physical force becomes the aggressor's deadly weapon...

Against The Unarmed: A Disparity Of Force Shooting (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_77824400/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.11)
American Handgunner, Sept, 2001 by Massad Ayoob

Situation: You face a savage attack by a bigger and stronger man whose sheer physical power is a deadly weapon.

Lesson: The law allows recourse to the gun in such cases, However, there can be other factors.

You, the general public, often do not realize that it is justifiable to use the deadly force of a firearm in defense against an ostensibly unarmed person. The law calls these "disparity of force" cases. When a bare-handed assault is so one-sided it is likely to cause death or great bodily harm, the greater power of the attacker becomes the equivalent of a deadly weapon. that warrants the victim's recourse to a per se lethal weapon in self-defense...

Untamed1972
07-15-2009, 8:15 AM
Correct.

The real point of the original question was to ask what would you do if (4) guys were following you to your truck, where you handgun was located. Lets assume that for some reason, starting the truck and driving away was not an option.

Basically, I wanted to know what your self-defense rights were to use lethal force if you are outnumbered and about to jump you.


You must only be able to articulate that you feared you were in danger of death or great bodily injury.

Could 4 guys using only their hands and feet as weapons cause you death or great bodily injury? (remember....something as simple as a broken bone is considered GBI in CA)

Damn right they could.

Response, if your best/only option is to go for the gun in truck, go for the gun, point it at the closest guy and tell them not to take another step or they die. If they stop.....start shooting and make your shots count cuz with 4 guys to take down you can't afford to waste your ammo and hope for time to reload.

If you could run and get away sucessfully, rather then waste time trying to get into the truck and dig around for the gun.....that might be a better option because distance is always your friend, especially if they are unarmed. So while you're trying to get in your truck and get your gun they are closing the distance on you which is not good and starts to limit your options really quick.

BillCA
07-15-2009, 10:24 AM
Jdoe beat me to it. The disparity of force doctrine applies. You're outnumbered 4:1 and they have potentially deadly weapons in their hands.

Truth is, I don't see how they can really prevent you from driving off, unless they use another vehicle to block your path.

E Pluribus Unum
07-15-2009, 10:27 AM
Jdoe beat me to it. The disparity of force doctrine applies. You're outnumbered 4:1 and they have potentially deadly weapons in their hands.

Truth is, I don't see how they can really prevent you from driving off, unless they use another vehicle to block your path.

..Or they close the distance between you and the vehicle before you can get in and lock the door. Even then, if they have a gun you are a fish in a barrel.

For me... unless they are 30+ yards away, running away or direct immediate confrontation are the only ways out.

BillCA
07-15-2009, 10:35 AM
Wait, I think we have missed a couple of steps. 12031 says the pistol is in a locked container. So you need to find the key to the door, unlock the door, find that very small key that goes in that goofy, non functioning lock on the CA approved container, unlock the left and right locks, open up the container, retrieve the .40, find the magazine that was stored seperately, hope that you had the 00 to keep that mag loaded, slam that mag home. Oh wait, your @$$ was grass after step two.

Of course, not all locked containers are equal. State law says it has to be locked - use a small combination luggage lock instead of a key lock to elminate fumbling for the key (I have too many keys as it is). In some cases, a single lock is sufficient. And, IIRC the Clark case decision allows you to keep a loaded magazine in the case, as long as it isn't in the gun.

The hardest part, in a pickup truck, may be getting quick access to the box itself.

If that group of 4 is really serious about doing you harm, as soon as they realize you're close to your vehicle, they'll try to swarm you.