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View Full Version : Word from KAC about why they do not ship to CA


Ruiner
07-14-2009, 7:12 AM
From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=451762

Originally Posted By KevinB:

Recently I have received complaints from civilians and Law Enforcement in California that KAC does not ship to Ca. One specific bone of contention is we do not ship to Ca. from our website. The reason for this is as follows, the California Department of Justice, when it created the Assault Weapon List, included our SR-25 and SR-15 rifles; however it also included the RAS, ALL MODELS. This means that our rails are an assault weapon as per California Law, and they prohibited to possess unless previously registered by the grandfather date. Our rails remain the only rail mentioned by the Ca. DOJ, and in correspondence with us, they admit the RAS systems were added to the Assault Weapon List by accident, however they have no intention on removing it. So at this time our Company policy is to sell Rifles and Accessories only to Military units or Law Enforcement Departments in California on official purchase orders. We do have a California dealer who deals strictly with Law Enforcement, and for individual officer sales we encourage you to contact Larry Northrop of River City Gun Exchange, our California LE Dealer, and for civilians any of our other dealers for purchase and shipping on non AW items. We strongly encourage all Californians to write Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, and ask him to remove the RAS from it, if not abolish the list in its entirety.

Kevin S. Boland
Military/Government Product Liaison
Knight's Armament Company
701 Columbia Blvd.
Titusville, Fl 32780
1(321)607-9900 ext. 1365
kboland@knightarmco.com


----------------------

Any thoughts about this? The knights RAS (All) is indeed on the list, although not a firearm. What exactly does this mean for the individuals who have a knights RAS installed on their rifle?

Q
07-14-2009, 7:27 AM
From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=451762 We strongly encourage all Californians to write Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, and ask him to remove the RAS from it, if not abolish the list in its entirety.

I'm with that. :)


Any thoughts about this? The knights RAS (All) is indeed on the list, although not a firearm. What exactly does this mean for the individuals who have a knights RAS installed on their rifle?
I couldn't tell a ris from a ras. :D

yellowfin
07-14-2009, 7:28 AM
Perhaps they should work with us in abolishing the list by supporting the suits against it and/or putting up reward money for ousting its supporters.

Ruiner
07-14-2009, 7:33 AM
Well, the M5 RAS is kind of heavy. Perhaps they thought people will use it as an assault club w/ rails. :eek:

PolishMike
07-14-2009, 7:33 AM
What if someone happens to have their RAS in ca?

Oregonish
07-14-2009, 8:20 AM
Interesting....

GP3
07-14-2009, 8:34 AM
What if someone happens to have their RAS in ca?

This is news to me too.

Someone clarify if possible.

I did not know the KAC RAS was somehow 'on the list'.

shark92651
07-14-2009, 8:47 AM
All you have to do is look at the list (link above)

Knights: RAS (all)

Yep, that is on the list

WokMaster1
07-14-2009, 8:51 AM
Maybe it's time for them to meet with the "Right people".

aplinker
07-14-2009, 8:57 AM
Except he's wrong... the rifle make would need to be "Knight's Armament" with the model itself needing to be "RAS." Adding a rail wouldn't make the rifle a "Knight's" anymore than the rail would become the rifle model.

Further, it would need to be an AR-15 or AK series rifle, so M14, MP5, etc. RAS systems are not an issue.

They're just overreacting, or perhaps "punishing the DOJ" by punishing us. :(

I refuse to post on arfcom for a number of reasons, if someone wants to add that to the thread...

Someone should invite him to Calguns *IF* we can be respectful.

sugi942
07-14-2009, 9:26 AM
Why not just rename the RAS?

missiontrails
07-14-2009, 9:31 AM
Does anyone here think a DOJ or LE official even knows what a RAS is? When they look at the name on your receiver and check the length of your barrel, the RAS will be a non-issue. A RAS does not even say "RAS" on it. I can see now why KAC is taking the stance, but if you own a RAS, don't worry about it. Imagine going to jail for a rail kit- I just don't see it happening. P.S., I am not an attorney, I only play one on TV.

bwiese
07-14-2009, 9:34 AM
I'll get on it this week.

IMC87
07-14-2009, 9:35 AM
I'll get on it this week.

:clap:

Dirtbiker
07-14-2009, 9:42 AM
I'll get on it this week.

One more thing for Bill to do.

Thanks again for all you do for us!

pacrimguru
07-14-2009, 9:48 AM
sweet, thanks bill!!! i'd love to see KAC products flowing freely in CA.

popeye4
07-14-2009, 10:12 AM
Perhaps someone should introduce them to Ronnie Barrett and his philosophy of dealing with CA government agencies......

Fate
07-14-2009, 11:27 AM
I wonder how much money that little bit of FUD has cost Knight's over the years...

technique
07-14-2009, 11:44 AM
HaHaHa......thats a good one! A rail system AW.

Haplo
07-14-2009, 11:44 AM
I just saw this on AR15.com and came here to post it. It seems to me based on the construction of "the list" that it bans firearms based on manufacturer and model number. The RAS is not a firearm, this goes against the purpose of the list which was not made to ban accessories. It was clearly a mistake, but is it still binding?

unamused
07-14-2009, 12:00 PM
wow... not that i didnt already think the list was dumb...

technique
07-14-2009, 12:09 PM
Except he's wrong... the rifle make would need to be "Knight's Armament" with the model itself needing to be "RAS." Adding a rail wouldn't make the rifle a "Knight's" anymore than the rail would become the rifle model.

Further, it would need to be an AR-15 or AK series rifle, so M14, MP5, etc. RAS systems are not an issue.

They're just overreacting, or perhaps "punishing the DOJ" by punishing us. :(

I refuse to post on arfcom for a number of reasons, if someone wants to add that to the thread...

Someone should invite him to Calguns *IF* we can be respectful.

Done....and quoted points you made.;)

THT
07-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Wow...classifying a rail as an assault weapon and then not fixing the error. That's messed up to an almost laughable level.

fonionrings
07-14-2009, 12:17 PM
In the war against the CA DOJ, we are the collateral damage.

Centurion_D
07-14-2009, 12:26 PM
Hmmm. As far as I can tell there are a couple of local gun stores selling KAC products including the M4 and M5 RAS.

Bowser
07-14-2009, 12:39 PM
When I bought my stuff from KAC's website. They canceled my order and left a note saying I should have it shipped to someone out of state and have them send it to me. So I called my friend in Texas up and it was gravy from then on.

aplinker
07-14-2009, 1:56 PM
Bummer, it already looks as though that thread has turned for the icky...

I wish sometimes people without constructive things to say would just STFU instead of needing to get their jab in.

I'll say, right now, that Knight's is one of, if not THE MOST, innovative weapons companies in the US. They are extremely creative, make top-notch products and do unbelievably great things.

What sucks is most people don't even realize it or know about it because they don't actively sell or advertise to civilians. If KAC did even 1/10th the job of marketing/buzz creation that Magpul does, they would be unstoppable - they'd need to make their prices realistic, too, though. :D

KevinB is actually a really cool guy and is way more about technical stuff than anything to do with marketing, so if he comes around I hope people can keep douchebag comments to themselves.

I wonder how much money that little bit of FUD has cost Knight's over the years...

Not much.

Knight's is pretty focused on gov't contracts.

They've only really trickled out stuff to private hands.

In fact, it's only recently they've started selling direct on their website. My guess is things are changing to make things more available to civvies.

Word is the same thing might be happening @ Colt, too. :)

Flying Bones
07-14-2009, 2:56 PM
I'll get on it this week.

:jump:

aplinker
07-14-2009, 4:06 PM
Nice post by recondodan. :)

THT
07-14-2009, 5:01 PM
This thread inspired me to contact KAC to see about becoming a dealer...

technique
07-14-2009, 5:06 PM
This thread inspired me to contact KAC to see about becoming a dealer...

good! Cuz I need a good rail for my .458 SOCOM:)

capntroy
07-14-2009, 6:51 PM
Someone should invite him to Calguns *IF* we can be respectful.

I don't belong to arfcom because of all the ninnies posting there, but KevinB is a regular poster on another forum that I belong to and is a really knowledgable and friendly guy.

I'd hate to see him subjected to the same crap that some of the calgunners have foisted upon other industry professionals here.

He'd be a good guy to have on our side working from the inside of KAC.

Ducman
07-14-2009, 7:12 PM
This thread inspired me to contact KAC to see about becoming a dealer...

good call :)

aplinker
07-14-2009, 8:23 PM
I don't belong to arfcom because of all the ninnies posting there, but KevinB is a regular poster on another forum that I belong to and is a really knowledgable and friendly guy.

I'd hate to see him subjected to the same crap that some of the calgunners have foisted upon other industry professionals here.

He'd be a good guy to have on our side working from the inside of KAC.

Indeed and agreed.

aplinker
07-14-2009, 8:25 PM
This thread inspired me to contact KAC to see about becoming a dealer...

Good luck with that! The few who do deal for them rarely have stuff in stock. Heck, even KACs own site has most things on backorder.

capntroy
07-14-2009, 8:37 PM
Good luck with that! The few who do deal for them rarely have stuff in stock. Heck, even KACs own site has most things on backorder.


Such is the cross that must be borne by people that make really good stuff!:)

akspetsnaz
07-14-2009, 11:01 PM
Sticky please

CHS
07-14-2009, 11:25 PM
It's sad that even when pointed out that "RAS" has to be a FIREARM first to even be considered an AW, KAC still won't budge.

I hate that ignorant crap.

And UCLA, I'm with you on KAC as well. I hate their policy, but they make some insanely great products. Unfortunately everything they make is generally 2-3x more than normal market price.

Ruiner
07-14-2009, 11:44 PM
I hate their policy, but they make some insanely great products. Unfortunately everything they make is generally 2-3x more than normal market price.

Agreed. I'm personally waiting for the non inconel version of their muzzle brake.

vega
07-15-2009, 6:29 AM
Tag.......

tankerman
07-15-2009, 6:45 AM
HaHaHa......thats a good one! A rail system AW.It amazes me what folks will post on AR15.com. It's what happens when people think too much, but forget to use common sense (or never have any to begin with).

Sniper3142
07-15-2009, 11:23 AM
The last time I checked (don't have my AR in front of me), the KAC RAS doesn't have a Serial Number. So exactly how would the CA DOJ know one RAS from another?!?!

Damn Government Idiots.

CHS
07-15-2009, 11:30 AM
The last time I checked (don't have my AR in front of me), the KAC RAS doesn't have a Serial Number. So exactly how would the CA DOJ know one RAS from another?!?!

Damn Government Idiots.

Yeah, my AR is at home too.. Can't remember if the RAS has a serial number or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they did, for gub'mint use.

Man, the DoJ would be confused at me. I've got an LMT Defender 2000 CMMG Knights Armament RAS. Hell, now I'M confused if I've got an assault weapon or not :)

technique
07-15-2009, 11:47 AM
It amazes me what folks will post on AR15.com. It's what happens when people think too much, but forget to use common sense (or never have any to begin with).

Me too....

I have had to change my location on ARF to ID...because no one will ship anything to me. I'm not talking firearms either or even magazine kits.

Heck I have even been locked out of the EE for attempting to buy non-firearm goods.

I'm not one to stress on that so much, I don't mind the double shipping or just picking stuff up when I go hunt out there....but you are right. Its just silly.




I'm hoping Knights will see the light. It is a very unique situation with KAC...I mean, not everyone has a non firearm on the list. But really commonsense should prevail here, its really a no brainer.

Linh
07-15-2009, 2:34 PM
KAC should sue the CA DOJ.

Any millionaires on this forum?

Bowser
07-15-2009, 6:54 PM
So how does this KAC RAS thing work. Can't have the rails at all or what?

CHS
07-15-2009, 7:15 PM
So how does this KAC RAS thing work. Can't have the rails at all or what?

Are the rails a semi-automatic centerfire rifle?

No?

Then you can have a RAS

gunsmithcats
07-15-2009, 7:46 PM
A triple tap, a triple tap. my kingdom for a triple tap. I wish theyd drop their prices on the finger stop. Perfect for my AR pistol

akspetsnaz
07-15-2009, 10:29 PM
$450 for that Triple Tap thing! :eek:

back to the topic -

Lawyer from CGF should send a letter to the Attorney General and ask for his clarification on "RAS" :mad:

OCMI_Teddy
07-15-2009, 11:03 PM
If you take a look at this CaDOJ diagram of the Knights RAS is quite obivious why its an AW

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/satanicteddy/RAS_RASII_M4.jpg

akspetsnaz
07-15-2009, 11:16 PM
dude this is RISII and is not listed! Legal for KAC to ship here :)

OCMI_Teddy
07-15-2009, 11:33 PM
i'm too lazy to do anymore ms paint...

Ruiner
07-16-2009, 12:49 AM
If you add a rail mounted folding sight on a RAS, you'll have a thing that goes up and it'll make it more evil. :eek:

aplinker
07-16-2009, 3:44 AM
dude this is RISII and is not listed! Legal for KAC to ship here :)

tsk tsk... it's a RAS II

RIS II is made by DD.

Hoop
07-16-2009, 10:41 AM
I don't belong to arfcom because of all the ninnies posting there

That's an understatement. ARFcom membership is at least half retarded, and the apparent laziness of moderators doesn't help things.

The way they handle the EE can make buying or selling there a hair-pulling nightmare.

motorhead
07-16-2009, 10:41 AM
yet they continue to sell to military and l.e.. i could respect them if they took barrett's position and treated all sales equally. as stated in their letter i cannot.

1811
07-16-2009, 11:11 AM
yet they continue to sell to military and l.e.. i could respect them if they took barrett's position and treated all sales equally. as stated in their letter i cannot.

My alphabet soup federal agency received a **** load of brand new Colt M4's fitted with a KAC RAS rails...panels and VFG's...

dchang0
07-16-2009, 12:16 PM
Agreed. I'm personally waiting for the non inconel version of their muzzle brake.

Would be nice, but it'd shatter. The thing is cut so thin and with such thin slats that it's basically a small wire cage. That said, I'm waiting for the Inconel version to be re-released, LOL!

allenst65
07-17-2009, 12:17 PM
Went through the same issue last year with a canceled order. Got this reply back from Reed himself:

"There is some specific language in CA laws that mentions KAC RAS by name. There is also specific language about liability of products sold in CA . We have made a blanket decision not to ship product to CA until we can get some better clarification about some specific laws. Because the website is semi-automated we did not want any mistakes to be made and have RASs or VP to be shipped there by accident. It is unfortunate and I am sorry about the situation but some of it is out of our control .
C Reed Knight III
Knight's Armament Co."

Mind you the order was for a bipod adapter and a QD sling adapter. Nothing to do with the RAS rail, but KAC apparently considers every single item that could be attached to a rail as part of their 'system', hence they made their blanket decision.

When my order was first canceled, I got ahold of one of the folks at the Lawmen site which processes the orders and they couldn't believe a bipod and QD adapter were barred as they send them all over the world. Later they confirmed Reed's position, but their hands were tied. They sent me to Operation Parts who were fantastic, and I actually had the parts re-ordered and in hand days before I got Reed's explanation.

aplinker
07-17-2009, 12:20 PM
I'll get on it this week.

Progress?

Swatter911
07-18-2009, 7:06 AM
I'm tempted to buy one with a letter from my CLEO. I wonder what DOJ's response would be when I tried to register it as an AW with no S/N.

Ruiner
07-18-2009, 7:36 AM
I'm tempted to buy one with a letter from my CLEO. I wonder what DOJ's response would be when I tried to register it as an AW with no S/N.

LOL Do it!! :43:

Santa Cruz Armory
07-18-2009, 7:58 AM
I'm tempted to buy one with a letter from my CLEO. I wonder what DOJ's response would be when I tried to register it as an AW with no S/N.

This actually could be a good thing... Go through the steps to purchase and attempt to register it. DOJ will obviously reject it due to the fact is has no serial # and would most likely send you a "this item is not an assault weapon, it is merely an accessory, therefore it is not required to be registered" letter. That would be firm grounds for KAC to request removal from the list.

akspetsnaz
07-20-2009, 6:36 PM
I'll get on it this week.


How was your weekend project?

CHS
07-20-2009, 6:41 PM
FYI, I checked out my RAS.

No SN#'s

TROJAN
08-03-2009, 5:08 AM
Does anyone here think a DOJ or LE official even knows what a RAS is? When they look at the name on your receiver and check the length of your barrel, the RAS will be a non-issue. A RAS does not even say "RAS" on it. I can see now why KAC is taking the stance, but if you own a RAS, don't worry about it. Imagine going to jail for a rail kit- I just don't see it happening. P.S., I am not an attorney, I only play one on TV.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2516/3784973932_1311256a65_o.jpg

motorhead
08-03-2009, 10:07 AM
P/N= part number

phamkl
08-03-2009, 10:13 AM
But it does say "RAS" on it!

TROJAN
08-03-2009, 10:57 AM
But it does say "RAS" on it!

My point exactly......

CHS
08-04-2009, 12:31 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2516/3784973932_1311256a65_o.jpg

Where's the heat shield and the rail markings?

TROJAN
08-04-2009, 1:13 PM
This is a Free Float RAS rail I've had for afew years. Its just vented with holes, no heat shield. It is a one piece rail. And it does not have T numbers on rail. It requires removal of front sight, gas block, delta assembly and barrel nut. It comes with its own barrel nut, hand guard cap, and indexing pins. I'll try to put up a pic of everything later.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3790353332_0b8b0b2a4f_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/3790353032_c619b092ce_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/3789539981_64f88dbc62_o.jpg

CHS
08-04-2009, 4:31 PM
This is a Free Float RAS rail I've had for afew years. Its just vented with holes, no heat shield. It is a one piece rail. And it does not have T numbers on rail. It requires removal of front sight, gas block, delta assembly and barrel nut. It comes with its own barrel nut, hand guard cap, and indexing pins. I'll try to put up a pic of everything later.

Ahhh, makes a lot more sense now! I thought it was the standard drop-in RAS :)