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xounlistedxox
07-12-2009, 8:36 PM
I was just curious if anyone remembers any cases involving the Prince 50 in California where the Prince 50 was found to be sufficient for CA Law?

I recently went to a firearm shop and the manager there claimed by CA Law that the Prince 50 is "illegal" because once you remove the screw it can be operated without the use of a tool. I explained to him "well how about this... you never remove the screw EVER for any reason then it's non- detachable" and he kept on saying that I was interpreting the law for my own interest. I told him that he was adding his own text to the law by claiming this. He stated the bullet button would be legal because you have to use a tool every time, so I said something to the effect of if you want to not make thousands of dollars in sales thats fine by me.

I recall seeing some court cases involving some of the mag lock devices currently in use, but can't seem to find them now.

titus7
07-12-2009, 8:45 PM
Well I did have one of those cases and it went all the way to the DOJ. My suggestion along with the lawyers and DA's office...just buy the bullet button and forget about it. You would be much better off instead trying to justify using the prince50 or trying to prove that u don't remove the set screw, to spend the $30 for the BB or Raddlock. Again my family and I had to deal with this for over a year and it's not worth the hassle.

xounlistedxox
07-12-2009, 8:50 PM
The Bullet Button is no more legal or illegal than the prince 50, raddlock, prince 50 bullet button, or any of the other mag lock devices in current use, so why would I go waste more money on getting something else that's not ca doj approved?

oldschool88
07-12-2009, 8:55 PM
The Bullet Button is no more legal or illegal than the prince 50, raddlock, prince 50 bullet button, or any of the other mag lock devices in current use, so why would I go waste more money on getting something else that's not ca doj approved?

It is not more legal, but it is more "accepted". There seems to be less chance of getting hassled by LE with a BB. Thats worth the money to me.

xounlistedxox
07-12-2009, 8:59 PM
I'm not worried about being hassled by LE in the slightest little bit. I have three friends in the Highway Patrol, and a retired Sheriff. From their perspectives unless the rifle has been used in a crime they aren't too worried about which setup it has. As long as the magazine is fixed.

I am looking for those court cases I remember seeing, so that I can show Mr. Know It All at the gun shop that the Prince 50 has been to court and won

ke6guj
07-12-2009, 9:12 PM
I was just curious if anyone remembers any cases involving the Prince 50 in California where the Prince 50 was found to be sufficient for CA Law?

I recently went to a firearm shop and the manager there claimed by CA Law that the Prince 50 is "illegal" because once you remove the screw it can be operated without the use of a tool.There is this thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150568 , in talks about how some DA's were potentially looking at them.

titus7
07-12-2009, 9:30 PM
Yeah well if it makes you feel any better I happen to have very close ties with the local Highway Patrol Captain along with very close ties with all of the local Police Department and there is nothing that your friends or family can do for you if something should go wrong with some LE or FED that doesnt know what the hell is going on and decides to harrass you anyways. Not sure if you have paid attention or not to what is going on in the country today but these people arent your friends and they dont want you to have these guns. And if one of them gets a wild hair up their *** because he doesnt like the color of shirt that your wearing than YOU are going to have to prove yourself innocent or that you are abiding by the law. Unfortunately if they suspect you are in the wrong...then you are in the wrong until you can prove otherwise. Im just speaking from REAL LIFE experience but you can do whatever you would like to do. It just seems ignorant to not learn from what other people have been through...hmmm history seems to have a way of repeating itself to those who dont learn from it.

$30....hmmm let me think.....I would spend the $30 over having to go through that BS ever again in my life.

Scarecrow Repair
07-12-2009, 9:50 PM
I'm not worried about being hassled by LE in the slightest little bit. I have three friends in the Highway Patrol, and a retired Sheriff. From their perspectives unless the rifle has been used in a crime they aren't too worried about which setup it has.

Of course they're not worried about your rifle. They aren't worried about you, either, and if one of their cops has a bee in his bonnet the day you get pulled over for something trivial, it won't be their bee in the hoosegow either. Tough break, they will say. You'll say, Hey! and they'll say, Hay is for horses. What was your name again?

Think about the unexpected for a change. Take charge of your own future. What if you get pulled over for a burnt out tail light in a school zone and the officer wants to look in your gun case and has had a bad day? What if someone bumps into you and the cops show up? What happens if someone burgles your car and takes the rifle, or doesn't take it but you get a cop on the scene?

Not all life goes as planned. Sometimes you have to plan for the unexpected. I don't know about the unknown unknowns, of course, but I have listed some of the known unknowns. I am sure you could add a few more if you wanted to plan for the unknown and be a bit proactive.

xounlistedxox
07-12-2009, 10:02 PM
I will be the first to admit I have had a ton of traffic tickets and typically get pulled over at least 1-2 times per year(i like to drive fast). Take a wild guess how many times the officers pulling me over asked to search my vehicle? Zero. Take a wild guess how many times I have ever been asked if I had any guns or drugs in the car? Zero. This is over my entire driving life which is nearly 15 years long at this point.

A word of advice that I don't see too many people talk about. I seperate my uppers from my lowers while in transport, so that they aren't even considered weapons. No worries about features and whatever when the uppers have no lowers and vice versa.

I did not write this post to start a debate, or talk about how the bullet button is better than the price 50 blahblahblah as these threads have already been done many many times over.

I wrote this post to see if anyone knew about court cases involving the prince 50. If you don't know of any cases involving the Prince 50 then dont thread crap!

fusionstar
07-12-2009, 10:09 PM
I will be the first to admit I have had a ton of traffic tickets and typically get pulled over at least 1-2 times per year(i like to drive fast). Take a wild guess how many times the officers pulling me over asked to search my vehicle? Zero. Take a wild guess how many times I have ever been asked if I had any guns or drugs in the car? Zero. This is over my entire driving life which is nearly 15 years long at this point.


MAN.. your insurance premiums must be crazy.

Geo
07-12-2009, 10:20 PM
Let's see...

1) chronic traffic offender... check.

2) short fuse... check.

3) DaNile is a river in Egypt... check.

Use whatever you like... bullet button or Price 50, it won't matter in the long run because you are always right.

gotgunz
07-12-2009, 10:58 PM
Which makes me wonder why he asked the question in the first place as he apparently already knew the answer that he considers to be correct.

aplinker
07-13-2009, 12:57 AM
Let's see...

1) chronic traffic offender... check.

2) short fuse... check.

3) DaNile is a river in Egypt... check.

Use whatever you like... bullet button or Price 50, it won't matter in the long run because you are always right.

:D Ohsmily would be proud.

shark92651
07-13-2009, 8:38 AM
The Bullet Button is no more legal or illegal than the prince 50, raddlock, prince 50 bullet button, or any of the other mag lock devices in current use, so why would I go waste more money on getting something else that's not ca doj approved?

Do you actually prefer to top load versus spending an extra $5 - $20 to get a bullet button or Raddlock, which allows you to swap out mags without breaking open your rifle? Or is there another reason you prefer the P50 other than just the cost?

xounlistedxox
07-13-2009, 9:05 AM
I prefer the Prince 50 because I travel out of state often and it's the easiest setup to use when leaving this state. I already have the prince 50 in all of my rifles, so spending more money for rediculous laws is not on my agenda.

For those of you who are wasting space making unneeded comments... All you have to do is press the back button and go somewhere else. I never crap on anyones thread, so please give me the same respect that I give everyone and go somewhere else.

shark92651
07-13-2009, 9:13 AM
To the best of my knowledge nothing involving an AR with a magazine lock has ever gotten so far as to go to court. There have been some arrests and deals that involved giving up the rifle, but no court case, unfortunately. If you prefer the P50 then use it. I swap magazine buttons out for Bullet Buttons, and vice-versa all the time and it never takes more than around 30 seconds so, for me, the convenience of being able to drop a mag with a bullet tip while in California far exceeds the hassle of top-loading while inside CA. I hope your question has been answered, but seriously, you need to lighten up - it's a discussion board for crying out loud.

5hundo
07-13-2009, 9:18 AM
there is nothing that your friends or family can do for you if something should go wrong with some LE or FED that doesnt know what the hell is going on and decides to harrass you anyways.

...which is a violation of your 2A rights. Ignorance in regards to the law is no excuse, even for cops. Demand a receipt from the officer and inform them that a lawyer will be contacting them promptly in regards to the illegal seizure of your weapons. He'll think twice about taking them.

If he (...or she) refuses to give you a receipt, dial 9-1-1 and tell them that you are currently being robbed by a person with a gun.

xounlistedxox
07-13-2009, 9:20 AM
I need to lighten up? Every time I make a post people come to it and make all kinds of rude comments and get way off topic. If this were not a real problem there would not be forum rules. The first rule is to stay on topic at all times... go figure.

As previously stated if I see a post and have nothing about the topic to add I don't add anything at all. They always say "Treat people how you want to be treated" and I do exactly that, but for some reason do not get that same level of common courtesy/respect returned to me.

Gator Monroe
07-13-2009, 9:20 AM
again ,is there a difference between a BB and a "prince BB" ?
THESE THREADS ARE Confusing and pics help somewhat but not always ...:mad:

Futurecollector
07-13-2009, 9:21 AM
I will be the first to admit I have had a ton of traffic tickets and typically get pulled over at least 1-2 times per year(i like to drive fast). Take a wild guess how many times the officers pulling me over asked to search my vehicle? Zero. Take a wild guess how many times I have ever been asked if I had any guns or drugs in the car? Zero. This is over my entire driving life which is nearly 15 years long at this point.

A word of advice that I don't see too many people talk about. I seperate my uppers from my lowers while in transport, so that they aren't even considered weapons. No worries about features and whatever when the uppers have no lowers and vice versa.

I did not write this post to start a debate, or talk about how the bullet button is better than the price 50 blahblahblah as these threads have already been done many many times over.

I wrote this post to see if anyone knew about court cases involving the prince 50. If you don't know of any cases involving the Prince 50 then dont thread crap!

Ive been drivning for 3 years

pulled over in excess of 15 tims

asked if I have wepons in the car 8-9 times.

asked to search my car once I told them about my arsenal in the back 0

DUI Field sobriety test 1

overall tickets 2 (douchebags....2 tickets in 2 Friggin MONTHS)

ill stick with the Radlock, come on RAD is in it... it has to be cool!

easy
07-13-2009, 11:24 AM
I need to lighten up? ...."Treat people how you want to be treated" and I do exactly that, but for some reason do not get that same level of common courtesy/respect returned to me.

Bit testy today are we? Respect is a two way street. I see no thread crapping here. Ask question, get answers but not always what one likes to here. Your skin is a bit too thin.

Scarecrow Repair
07-13-2009, 11:24 AM
If he (...or she) refuses to give you a receipt, dial 9-1-1 and tell them that you are currently being robbed by a person with a gun.

And a whole lotta money paid to a lawyer later .... you will begin to think that $30 for a BB sounds pretty good in hindsight.

Yeh, the legal system sucks. Why should you have to pay to prove your innocence? But that's the way it is. You can get up on your high and mighty all you want, but fixing the system to not suck is goinna take a whole lot more work than any eant on here.

djd
07-13-2009, 11:28 AM
again ,is there a difference between a BB and a "prince BB" ?
THESE THREADS ARE Confusing and pics help somewhat but not always ...:mad:

I believe the main difference is that a Prince 50 and a Raddlock can be switched from CA legal (fixed mag, requires tool to release) to CA illegal (detachable mag, simple button push) fairly quickly with a simple tool. A standard bullet button requires at least some disassembly of the rifle and replacing of the part to switch:

You asked for pictures, here it is:
http://www.raddlock.com/raddlock_product/ar_raddlock/p2_animate.gif

5hundo
07-13-2009, 3:26 PM
And a whole lotta money paid to a lawyer later .... you will begin to think that $30 for a BB sounds pretty good in hindsight.

...and the same thing could happen if you did pay the $30 for another bullet button, so you might as well save the $30, at least. :rolleyes:

xounlistedxox
07-13-2009, 3:34 PM
5hundo you're the only one on the same page here eventhough it's got to be way off the original topic

5hundo
07-13-2009, 3:48 PM
5hundo you're the only one on the same page here eventhough it's got to be way off the original topic

+1

All of the current options for "permanently attaching" magazines have the same level of approval... ;)

Scarecrow Repair
07-13-2009, 5:05 PM
...and the same thing could happen if you did pay the $30 for another bullet button, so you might as well save the $30, at least. :rolleyes:

5hundo you're the only one on the same page here eventhough it's got to be way off the original topic

+1

All of the current options for "permanently attaching" magazines have the same level of approval... ;)

Well, no, not really, unless you like being on the wrong page together by your lonesomes (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150568)

Took me 30 seconds to find this.

You are at increased risk of wasting money on an attorney for bogus charges with the Prince 50. So say the 58 DAs.

bwiese
07-13-2009, 5:20 PM
You've been warned... This has been well-covered here for some time.

Please, again, dammit... if you have a Prince50, change over to a BB (bullet button) design A.S.A.P (!!!)

Info has CGF gotten is that DAs grudgingly understand the BB, but have negative views of BBs (mostly due to asshats that loosen it up).

Any drama with a BB is likely to go away without charges filed (or with them going away very rapidly at worst) - not necessarily with a Prince50.

Yes, a legitimately-configured Prince50 is defendable - but why go there? Why have grief? Why cause others grief when we have so many more things to fight?

Trying to save $25 for a BB and enhancing your risk profile is just Failing Darwin's Big IQ Test.

hawk81
07-13-2009, 6:38 PM
With your way of thinking, why own guns in California at all. The prince 50 is legal, if cops want to screw with you, then fight them in court. We as Californians need to take a stand and quit being so damned chicken S***. If you don't fight now, then there will be nothing left to fight for.


You've been warned... This has been well-covered here for some time.

Please, again, dammit... if you have a Prince50, change over to a BB (bullet button) design A.S.A.P (!!!)

Info has CGF gotten is that DAs grudgingly understand the BB, but have negative views of BBs (mostly due to asshats that loosen it up).

Any drama with a BB is likely to go away without charges filed (or with them going away very rapidly at worst) - not necessarily with a Prince50.

Yes, a legitimately-configured Prince50 is defendable - but why go there? Why have grief? Why cause others grief when we have so many more things to fight?

Trying to save $25 for a BB and enhancing your risk profile is just Failing Darwin's Big IQ Test.

=Mike=
07-13-2009, 7:06 PM
If I were me, after spending X amount on an AR, I would spend the extra 2 cents on a BB to avoid the possable BS.
BUT,..If I were you, I would buy the prince 50 and keep everyone posted on any outcome, granted your able to trade your phone call for a post.
Good Luck.

berto
07-13-2009, 7:07 PM
With your way of thinking, why own guns in California at all. The prince 50 is legal, if cops want to screw with you, then fight them in court. We as Californians need to take a stand and quit being so damned chicken S***. If you don't fight now, then there will be nothing left to fight for.

A totally appropriate response if you have the willingness and bank account to fight the good fight.

If not, it's easier and wiser to spend $20 and avoid a much costlier fight.

gemini1
07-13-2009, 7:59 PM
http://www.norcalblackriflegear.com/images/minifreelock.jpg

Just use the BB like the one above, screwed in while in Cali and use a tool to remove your mag. Or loosen it enough to allow the BB to be your push button mag release when out of State.

Have not heard nor read anything about court cases regarding the Prince 50 but you may want to avoid that and go for the BB

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150568&highlight=prince+50+legality

xounlistedxox
07-13-2009, 8:28 PM
Until the prince 50, bb, or raddlock are determined to be legal or illegal by the CA DOJ they're all up on the fence. I find the Prince 50 to be more in conjunction with the letter of the law.

Hopi
07-13-2009, 8:52 PM
Until the prince 50, bb, or raddlock are determined to be legal or illegal by the CA DOJ they're all up on the fence. I find the Prince 50 to be more in conjunction with the letter of the law.

FWIW, it's much harder for a person to manipulate a BB device out of compliance. Said another way, if your rifle does get confiscated, a P50 is much more susceptible to being 'played around with'. Ultimately, this could lead to an arrest report being written in an unfriendly way, or evidence being cataloged in such a manner that will document an out-of-compliance configuration. At that point, your obstacles are no longer only the legal definition of what constitutes a 'detachable magazine'.....

Your trust runs deep with the P50 in the case that something unfortunate does happen. There are safer options.

COBRA MASTER
07-13-2009, 8:55 PM
good advice

Yeah well if it makes you feel any better I happen to have very close ties with the local Highway Patrol Captain along with very close ties with all of the local Police Department and there is nothing that your friends or family can do for you if something should go wrong with some LE or FED that doesnt know what the hell is going on and decides to harrass you anyways. Not sure if you have paid attention or not to what is going on in the country today but these people arent your friends and they dont want you to have these guns. And if one of them gets a wild hair up their *** because he doesnt like the color of shirt that your wearing than YOU are going to have to prove yourself innocent or that you are abiding by the law. Unfortunately if they suspect you are in the wrong...then you are in the wrong until you can prove otherwise. Im just speaking from REAL LIFE experience but you can do whatever you would like to do. It just seems ignorant to not learn from what other people have been through...hmmm history seems to have a way of repeating itself to those who dont learn from it.

$30....hmmm let me think.....I would spend the $30 over having to go through that BS ever again in my life.

Flying Bones
07-13-2009, 9:11 PM
[QUOTE=xounlistedxox;2761370]I was just curious if anyone remembers any cases involving the Prince 50 in California where the Prince 50 was found to be sufficient for CA Law? QUOTE]

Good legitimate question...even if it has been answered before.

[QUOTE=xounlistedxox;2761370]..."He stated the bullet button would be legal because you have to use a tool every time, so I said something to the effect of if you want to not make thousands of dollars in sales thats fine by me". QUOTE]

Seriously? You think a guy is going to lose thousands of dollars over not selling a P50 vs. BB? They're 30 bucks a pop. They guy is lucky to make $5 off each one. So what you actually did is say some smart comment to really show him...Rock on.

For those who ask questions as ridiculous as "why even own guns?" Get real. Don't you realize there are folks likely working much harder than you are making calculated, progressive movements against years of damaging legislation? You shameless self-promoters walk around with a stick bigger than you can swing. But, you have been warned.

xounlistedxox
07-13-2009, 9:18 PM
Sounds to me like most of you guys have a guilty conscience. You must also be driving around hanging your rifles out of the window of your vehicle to be this worried about all of this stuff. I transport my rifles with the uppers and lowers seperated and I shoot at places that are AR friendly, or private completely. I abide by laws and respect law enforcement whenever I talk to them. I've had AR's since the early days(2004) and have had zero problems at all with any of this stuff. Stop crying about it and be prepared to stand up for yourself.

xounlistedxox
07-13-2009, 9:23 PM
Flying bones. The shop I am talking about doesn't sell any AR's other than the Carbon 15's. They won't even sell any with a bb, so yes they are losing thousands of potential dollars in sales by only selling carbon 15's.

Jonathan Doe
07-13-2009, 9:32 PM
For the most assault weapon cases land at my desk, most of them were AR series rifles with prince 50 with the screw removed (not even backed out), and rifles with regular magazine release. Have never seen rifles with bullet button for an actual case.

snupples
07-13-2009, 9:39 PM
xounlistedxox is a troll.

End of story.

Hopi
07-13-2009, 9:42 PM
Sounds to me like most of you guys have a guilty conscience. You must also be driving around hanging your rifles out of the window of your vehicle to be this worried about all of this stuff. I transport my rifles with the uppers and lowers seperated and I shoot at places that are AR friendly, or private completely. I abide by laws and respect law enforcement whenever I talk to them.

Geez. After the first 2 sentences, I wouldn't have expected the next 2. :rolleyes:


I've had AR's since the early days(2004) and have had zero problems at all with any of this stuff.

Wow. 2004? You must have beaten Blackrazor and Ben to the punch huh? You must have really been 'in the loop'. Or maybe your boasting is off by a year or two?


Stop crying about it and be prepared to stand up for yourself.

Do you know where you are? As a reminder, this is Calguns. We rarely cry, and we always stand up for each other.

5hundo
07-13-2009, 9:53 PM
xounlistedxox is a troll.

End of story.

It doesn't stop him from being 100% correct...

tankerman
07-13-2009, 10:06 PM
talks about how some DA's were potentially looking at them.
Sounds like a description of a 'happy hour' discussion.

Scarecrow Repair
07-13-2009, 10:10 PM
It doesn't stop him from being 100% correct...

He's only correct as long as everything goes according to plan. One mistake, one accident, any circumstance not under his control, and his plan goes out the window.

It's like driving around blind turns at 10/10ths. Works as long as everything is perfect. Then one day there's a deer in the road, or a small rockslide to decrease his traction, and the guardrail is useless.

tankerman
07-13-2009, 10:13 PM
Info has CGF gotten is that DAs grudgingly understand the BB, but have negative views of BBs
Yes we've all heard about this second, third, fourth hand information........still to be confirmed (after many months), long on speculation, short on details or facts.

What started out as "BREAKING NEWS", has become a bit of unsubstaniated 'Tabloid Journalism'. (IMO)

snupples
07-13-2009, 10:16 PM
It doesn't stop him from being 100% correct...

About what? That he gets no respect? He asked a question about a subjective matter, got some intelligent advice, then trashes anyone who doesn't tell him what he's already decided to be correct.

Maybe you're right. He gets no respect.

bwiese
07-13-2009, 10:31 PM
Yes we've all heard about this second, third, fourth hand information........still to be confirmed (after many months), long on speculation, short on details or facts.

Kevin, this was straight from Chuck Michel who'd been talking to various DAs.

Some of them were supposedly gonna write up a letter but given realities of running a DA's office that's way low on the list.

Chuck doesn't lie or pull punches. If he says it, I believe him, and I'm gonna help him spread the word.

From a practical standpoint, I can't see why people are getting worked up over a $20+ fitting.

I'd bet most of the Prince50 braggadocios in posts above - if popped for violation - would be coming begging to CGF for defense.

Yes, we can defend legit Prince50 cases. But, again, why?

I wanna defend RKBA, not a friggin' screw device.

But why not make CGF's life (prospectively, should it come up) easier - and make it easier for your fellow gunnies? If we can avoid diversions for crap like unnecessary Prince50 drama we can focus on other matters... like getting BBs even more acknowledged as legal thru further cases, 50BMG work, mag work, etc.

hoffmang
07-14-2009, 12:21 AM
Yes we've all heard about this second, third, fourth hand information........still to be confirmed (after many months), long on speculation, short on details or facts.

What started out as "BREAKING NEWS", has become a bit of unsubstaniated 'Tabloid Journalism'. (IMO)

Please call Chuck and ask him: (562) 216-4444

As I said in the OP, he asked me to post that information and he mentioned that he was still pulling things together on that front on a call last week. I too am unhappy that his timetable has been glacial, but I was reporting his updates.

Please stop shooting the messenger. I look forward to you reporting back after phoning him.

-Gene

Blackhawk556
07-14-2009, 12:41 AM
For the most assault weapon cases land at my desk, most of them were AR series rifles with prince 50 with the screw removed (not even backed out), and rifles with regular magazine release. Have never seen rifles with bullet button for an actual case.

READ THIS