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titus7
07-12-2009, 3:36 PM
There seems to be lots and lots of discussions on this round and the rifles that use them, but I have not found anything saying whether or not our military...or any military is actually using it. My question stems from wanting to get one myself here pretty soon, and Im thinking that if our military is using or does use it than maybe components will become cheaper...maybe. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

bridgeport
07-12-2009, 3:40 PM
I have heard the military bypassed this round due to accuracy potential concerns.A better choice might be.... 338 lapua.... or Barret 416. Personally and for the limited trigger time I had on it, I liked it, however the cost factor as well as it being so in the middle of the road (between 338 lapua, and 50 BMG) dissuaded me
from pursuing the issue any further. My understanding is that now, the military is actually looking for smaller, more portable rounds specifically for anti personel work at very long range.

skkeeter
07-12-2009, 5:18 PM
I would stay away from this round unless your filthy rich. Doesn't the rifle cost around 10K? I think the amount of money needed for even reloading these rounds ($8-10), will keep them in the exotic department, thus prices never coming down. I know it's attractive as holding all the records right now, but I can't see this becoming a widely used weapon/round. If you end up getting one, please don't be afraid to show and tell(lots of photos and range report). It's on my dream list, but not very practical. I shoot the .338 Lapua mag and couldn't be happier. I really can't see myself shooting past 1500 yards anyway. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

titus7
07-12-2009, 6:05 PM
Yeah well I've been dabbling in evil rifles for awhile and am getting bored with them and where I live hell you could target practice with a 20mm and still have room for anything else. Besides my friends and I used to be real competative with each other at long range and I'd kinda like to take away any advantage that they think they have! Lol

Darklyte27
07-12-2009, 7:46 PM
I knew someone saw the show today on mil ch and someone was going to post! i knew it!

Brutish
07-12-2009, 7:48 PM
If you are finding yourself asking about 408 CT here on CG, it probably isn't the right rifle/caliber combo for you.

Do you reload for and shoot a long range rig now? This would not be the first rifle to buy and start reloading for.

fusionstar
07-12-2009, 9:30 PM
The gun is crazy expensive.. and The ammo is impossible to find unless you reload religiously for it. Components are hard to find as well.

If you like that profile weapon.
Take a look at this..

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/msr.htm

You can get this in 7.62 Nato, 300 Win Mag, 338 Lapua Mag.

Guns R Tools
07-12-2009, 9:59 PM
Here is one manufacture.

http://02bfe1c.netsolhost.com/products/m408.htm
http://02bfe1c.netsolhost.com/price.htm

Another in semi.
http://www.vigilancerifles.com/408cheytac.html
http://www.vigilancerifles.com/prices.html

Exotic stuff.

titus7
07-12-2009, 10:59 PM
I have actually been into long range for awhile. I just don't personally know anyone that owns one of these rifles or calibers and I am looking for personal opinions. I actually love the new remmy msr and have been talking with Remington reps for 3weeks now about getting one but it's not going to be available at all until 1st or 2nd quarter of next year, but I am still talking with them and if anyone has a good contact and can get one then please let me know.

titus7
07-12-2009, 11:02 PM
Or if anyone knows of a dealer with an EDM/cheytac in stock in so-cal please let me know asi would like to check one out in person

aplinker
07-13-2009, 12:05 AM
Wait for Brando or PM him and he'll respond - he's one of the top CG guys on the ELR stuff.

Guns R Tools
07-13-2009, 12:14 AM
IIRC, Tom Miller is rep of EDM.
http://www.extremefirearms.com/index.html

titus7
07-13-2009, 4:14 AM
Yeah I have already been buggin Brando about his rifle and any info. Hopefully gonna make it down to where he shoots here pretty soon.

CSACANNONEER
07-13-2009, 4:36 AM
I liked it, however the cost factor as well as it being so in the middle of the road (between 338 lapua, and 50 BMG) dissuaded me
from pursuing the issue any further.

That's why I've stuck to the 50BMG. It can be the cheapest long range round to shoot and has the widest selection and best availability of reloading components and reloading data. I really think the two boutique rounds (.416 Barret and .408 CT) are more expensive to shoot than both the 50 BMG and the .338 Lapua though.

B Strong
07-13-2009, 5:27 AM
There seems to be lots and lots of discussions on this round and the rifles that use them, but I have not found anything saying whether or not our military...or any military is actually using it. My question stems from wanting to get one myself here pretty soon, and Im thinking that if our military is using or does use it than maybe components will become cheaper...maybe. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It's been tested, but not adopted, by various units and countries.

duraglock
07-13-2009, 7:58 AM
Got to meet the guys from emds arms at a 1000yd match in socal and talking to them they were really a class act.Tom Miller is also a great guy and always had great support of the rifle. Great product great customer service and these things hold their value. . I think they also said they gave several rifles to sf elements of the Marine Corps to use in Afghanistan . I think they had those rifles listed for sale once. Your not going to shoot that many rounds in a session so price of ammo is not bad. You will have to relaod for it but thats part of the fun with big bores.

brando
07-13-2009, 9:17 AM
The Turkish and Polish SF are fielding Cheytac M200s in small numbers, from what I've heard. Apparently NSW spent the most time testing it among USSOCCOM elements, though they decided to go with .338LM (and or .300WM). Tier One units have tested it as well but I don't know if they've employed it. Either way, they are such small numbers that it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

The bottom line is that ELR cartridges almost exclusively rely on CNC lathed solids, which are expensive compared to standard match HPBT jacketed lead designs. Bullets are the main consumables so therefor they'll always be more expensive to shoot in any reasonable numbers. The same goes for .416 Barrett, though that round hasn't performed as well as the .408 and .375 variant. .338LM is being widely adopted by NATO countries and it has a long, established history. It will slowly come down in price (the main cost right now is brass). .50BMG has the main advantage of payload capability that the smaller calibers do not have and for that reason will always have a place at the table.

The main problem with ELR shooting as a military application is that the distances involved (2000 yards and beyond) are such that first round hits require above average skill and developing that skill requires lots of training. It's much easier and reliable in this day and age to rely on CAS or UAV strikes than rely on a small team to make long range shots.

WeekendWarrior
07-13-2009, 10:42 AM
Hahahaha, I saw that show too! Pretty sweet rifle, dont think I will ever be able to afford it though, as I stuggle to feed my .308 as it is.

brando
07-13-2009, 12:25 PM
I would stay away from this round unless your filthy rich. Doesn't the rifle cost around 10K? I think the amount of money needed for even reloading these rounds ($8-10), will keep them in the exotic department, thus prices never coming down. I know it's attractive as holding all the records right now, but I can't see this becoming a widely used weapon/round. If you end up getting one, please don't be afraid to show and tell(lots of photos and range report). It's on my dream list, but not very practical. I shoot the .338 Lapua mag and couldn't be happier. I really can't see myself shooting past 1500 yards anyway. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

For what it's worth, while factory ammo for .408 Cheytac is expensive, anyone contemplating making the most of a rifle in that caliber should be hand loading ammo. Brass is a little more expensive than .338LM brass at around $2.50ea, but most of us are getting between 8-12 loads from it these days (earlier brass was too soft). That essentially cuts the cost per round in half as the main cost becomes bullets. The highest performance bullets cost about $2.25ea but will get you into the 2000+ yard area. Less expensive bullets can be had as an alternative though, but you'll be in .338LM ranges instead. Dies aren't hard to find either, so it's not the mythical caliber it once was.

On top of that, yes, this is a caliber that is not for the average shooter. .338LM is good to a mile and most folks won't take it to its limits. However, if you want to go past a mile it requires more of a commitment. One other little .408CT advantage a lot of people don't know about is the 305gr solid that, when loaded to about 3200fps is an extremely low max ord to 1000 yards - pretty much point and shoot.

brando
07-13-2009, 12:27 PM
Or if anyone knows of a dealer with an EDM/cheytac in stock in so-cal please let me know asi would like to check one out in person

EDM is having a special on .408 rifles - basically $1000 off the price is you pay 100% up front. You can also find used ones on Gunbroker sometimes for less than the $7600 NIB price.

titus7
07-13-2009, 5:34 PM
Yeah everyone keeps telling me about the cost of rounds for the 408 and yet when I had my 338 lapua, factory ammo was between $100-$120 per box of 20 and for the first round of loading wasnt too much cheaper. It wasnt until the second time loading that you really notice the cost difference between factory loads and reloads. But even at that I have been finding factory loads of 408 for about $120 per 20 and the reloading components arent much more than the 338. Just what I have found. Again I dont own a 408...yet but just from what lil research that I have found hasnt really proven to me that the 338 is that much cheaper especially for 600-800yards less.

I am still contemplating my next rifle and 408 has been a dream for quite awhile so that is where my main focus is but when it actually comes to dropping the ca$hola down I may go with something else. I am just a big fan if the big boomers and the distance that can be had, if you know what I mean

titus7
07-13-2009, 5:35 PM
I noticed that Tom Miller has the same area code as I do but does anyone actually know where he is located and if he has a store?? I could call him but I dont wanna bug him until I have all of the money in hand.

bridgeport
07-13-2009, 8:16 PM
Titus, I am with you on this, that being that if 408 is what you want...
grab one up with gusto and enjoy the heck out of it. Some guys like cars and motorcycles, others like totally cool rifles... some like all three.

Butthead
07-13-2009, 9:41 PM
I noticed that Tom Miller has the same area code as I do but does anyone actually know where he is located and if he has a store?? I could call him but I dont wanna bug him until I have all of the money in hand.

Unless something has recently changed Tom does not have a shop. He is a great guy and can answer all of your questions.

rodog
07-13-2009, 10:39 PM
+1 for Tom Miller, great guy and a wealth of information. Titus and Brando, if I may ask, where besides EDM/Vigilance are you finding loaded rounds? I for one, am hoping for a comeback since it seemed the 408 was going away due to LRB's actions with the round.

bomb_on_bus
07-14-2009, 8:57 AM
The .408 is a great round.

I would recommend it over the .50bmg if you want to shoot past 2,000yrds. I have seen the .408 EDM used going for 5k several times on gunbroker. The sellers start high sometimes around 7k but eventually the gun just sits and gets a hundred relists and the seller finally takes the 5k bid. I would definately recommend the EDM .408 over the cheytac for cost reasons. The
M200 can go as high as 12k depending on the seller. Then you spend 3-4k on glass and 2k on a ballistic comp and another 1k for 150 rounds of .408

The bullet was engineered with LONG distances in mind and there are numerous field shots at 2,600 yrds or longer. The only problem is no one has jumped on board to mass market the round yet. I bet the cost would drop to around 3 dollars if Hornaday or Federal churned these out. If that would be the case I would by ammo by the case and sell off all my other target rifles to fund the .408

Tom lives up the hill from me in the Tehachapi area and we bump into each other from time to time out at the range. He owns several of the EDM rigs and even helped with getting my first .308 EDM a couple years back. He is a great person to talk to and even showed a few pointers of how to get better accuracy out of my gun while at the range a year or two ago.

brando
07-14-2009, 8:58 AM
You can buy loaded ammo directly from Cheytac, but you can make it yourself cheaper and better. A few years ago it was really hard to find components, but nowadays it's no problem. Sure, it's not anywhere near the level of volume and variety as .338LM, but keep in mind that cartridge is from the mid-1980s. It takes a while for things to catch on.

The early batches of brass from Jamison was too soft as was the brass from EDM via Bertram (I still have a good 150 cases that are too soft to shoot even starting loads). However, Jamison fixed the problem and are now putting out quality brass (head stamped with two stars). They cost about $2.50ea but will stand up to 10 or more loads.

For bullets there are more options than before. Initially LRBT designed the bullets, but they went under. Jamison, which is owned by Cheytac now, started putting out the LRBT profile bullets, namely the 305 and 419gr copper/nickel solids. Hooker also took over from LRBT, continuing to make solids for other calibers as well, but it sounds like they're getting out of that side of the biz. Lehigh has makes the .416 Barrett bullet exclusively and starting last year slightly downsized it for .408 at 385gr. There are some jacketed lead .408 bullets out there as well, but they're not a whole lot cheaper. The Jamison 419gr is the top choice for taking it to extreme range, staying supersonic to about 2300 yards. The 305gr solid falls out of the sky quicker and is designed for shooting flat to 1000 yards. I like the Lehigh bullet for shooting inside of 2000 yards - it's almost half the cost of the 419, so I tend to have some of these loaded when I'm at Angeles and people ask to shoot my rifle.

For powder, RL-25 is the most popular powder for .408 loading with Fed215 Magnum Match primers. Lawton Barrels in Dillon, MT make excellent .408 dies as does CH4D (I use their large bushing neck sizer and straight line seater dies); they're also the subject matter experts with regards to making barrels for shooting solids (they make all of the Cheytac barrels).

So if you want a .408, I suggest you get into handloading for accuracy. More over, if it's extreme range you want to shoot, I'd recommend a .375/408 aka .375 Cheytac as it's a superior ELR round. You don't need the M200 nor the Windrunner to shoot either caliber, but they sure are fun. I'm just glad I don't have to jump or hump it anywhere ;)

C.G.
07-14-2009, 10:47 AM
If you don't mind a single shot, Spider Arms has a less expensive version than EDM. I like my Ferret .338LM.
http://www.ferret50.com/

brando
07-14-2009, 11:01 AM
There are many options for .408 (and .375/408) rifles besides the Windrunner and M200. I tell most people to just call Bobby at Lawton Barrels and have them build one up on their actions for a lot less.

rodog
07-14-2009, 4:41 PM
Thanks for the info Brando, I didn't know that other companies were picking up where LRBT left off. To the OP, the cool thing about the EDM windrunner is that you can get different barrels/bolts (for about 2K) and its a takedown. Effect on accuracy with a takedown? unsure as the Pala range (nearest to me with 1000 yd range) has a "nothing over .33 cal" limit due to the past incident.

brando
07-14-2009, 4:53 PM
I noticed a slight adjustment in POI from assembly/disassembly. The barrel nut and indexer around the chamber mitigate this substantially and I know of others who do not have this problem. Regardless, mine now stays attached to the receiver...

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f80/BDoggBrando/ELR/DSC_3824.jpg

titus7
07-14-2009, 5:48 PM
Well I like the EDM and the Cheytac for its breakdown ability lot easier for transport and for storage. Hey Brando I am one that would be breaking this rifle down after every outing, do you do this and if so does it ever come lose or act like its not as snug as it was when you got it?? Also has the install of the barrel tube/shroud affected the rifle negatively in anyway. I have already been in contact with Jimmym40A2 about this convesion already and cant wait to get this ball rollin...

brando
07-14-2009, 5:55 PM
I did that for a couple years and no, it never comes undone or get loose. The barrel has an index that allows it to fit the receiver only one way, then the barrel nut is tightened down "uzi style" onto the receiver. A ratcheting device prevents the nut from coming loose once it's been tightened. It's a great system.

The barrel shroud with forward mounted bipod was more important to me than the takedown capability. It's orders of magnitude more stable than the default setup with the bipod close to the rifle's center of gravity.

titus7
07-14-2009, 7:54 PM
Ahh alright, sounds good. So once I have the shroud on then it cant break down anymore than the stock being collapsed??

What did you use to paint your rifle? I dont have the equipment to do it but am a lil nervous about shipping it off to someone for a couple of weeks to have it done. UNLESS anybody on here knows of someone who is really good and owns a business to do it?!!?!?!?

brando
07-14-2009, 8:23 PM
You can still break it down as the shroud is screwed into the barrel nut so the whole thing comes off. So yes, technically it's still a take down rifle in this configuration if necessary.

I use Duracoat to paint my rifles. Drew @ www.armoryairbrush.com (here on CG as well) does a great job painting rifles. I personally wanted to make a project of it and experiment with different setups. In fact, I plan on repainting it soon with a darker setup.

grahlaika
07-14-2009, 9:43 PM
It's a wrong assumption to say that 'the' rifle in .408CT costs $10K. One manufacturer who builds that caliber sells a rifle for that price. You can get a custom rifle built in that caliber, or in .375CT for much, much less (on the order of $3-4k). The cool kids shoot Lawtons =).

rodog
07-14-2009, 10:42 PM
Brando, is that the intervention barrel shroud? Titus7, who is Jimmym40a2 and does he do the shroud? I don't want to go off topic too much, sorry OP, I'm starting to get excited about others who are still interested in this platform and am learning, so maybe my starlight case can see the light of day again...Grahlaika, the more makers offering the .408 the better..I take it you are one of the "cool" kids shooting a Lawton? How do you like it?

brando
07-15-2009, 8:51 AM
It's a wrong assumption to say that 'the' rifle in .408CT costs $10K. One manufacturer who builds that caliber sells a rifle for that price. You can get a custom rifle built in that caliber, or in .375CT for much, much less (on the order of $3-4k). The cool kids shoot Lawtons =).

This is exactly what I've been trying to say for quite some time now. You don't NEED the Windrunner or M200 to shoot .408 Cheytac. In fact, a very capable .408 rifle can be built for about the same price as a .338LM. Not cool kids, smart kids shoot solids out of Lawton barrels ;)



Brando, is that the intervention barrel shroud? Titus7, who is Jimmym40a2 and does he do the shroud?

No, it's a custom job done for me by RND Edge in Colorado. They turned down my barrel nut, threaded the outside to accept an aluminum shroud and indexing nut as well as provided a modified bipod based on the system they made for their rifles (which are badass, I might add).

titus7
07-15-2009, 4:15 PM
Alright guys, I spent a lil bit today on the phone with Tom Miller. He is a very nice guy who is more than willing to help ya out. But after all the talking we did about the 408 he brought up the idea of the 510??? And after he explained everything to me Im actually kinda leaning more that way. He will be at the Del Mar Gun Show this weekend with all of the toys and Ima try to get down there(4hrs away) and check everything out in person as well as try to get some pics of everything, and Ill post up here if anyone is interested.

Any thoughts on experiences with the 510??????

brando
07-15-2009, 4:36 PM
Shoot a 50cal, then shoot a .408 - that's my suggestion.

titus7
07-15-2009, 4:45 PM
Well I had a Barrett M95 for a lil bit. Are you referring to the kick?? Or accuracy?? Im looking for advice cuz you guys have more knowledge on this stuff than me. Tom was talking about just the cost difference. Which we have already touched on, either way 338, 408, 416, and even 50 i$ gonna be e$pen$ive. But whatta ya think. The M95 didnt kick too bad because it is pretty heavy and obviously you arent standing up while shooting it...although I did do 1 mag that way just for ****s and giggles. Neways, I dont think that either windrunner weighs too much less than my M95.

rodog
07-15-2009, 7:10 PM
Tom used to have some "events", which could be a great way to get behind a couple of rifles and maybe send a couple down range. I was considering the 375/408 barrel swap (windrunner) as I could use the same bolt, but hearing that 408 components/rounds are becoming more available (thanks Brando), I will put more effort into it. Imho, for caliber selection, they all have some pros and cons, and the biggest problem for me is the investment in time to get better with ELR shooting.

brando
07-16-2009, 11:55 AM
Well I had a Barrett M95 for a lil bit. Are you referring to the kick?? Or accuracy??

All I can say is that everyone I know who shoots .50s and then shoots my .408 comments about how much more pleasant it is to shoot.

Honestly, the reason I recommend .300WM and .338LM for most people who want to get into long range precision shooting is that they're generally less expensive (particularly .300WM) and most folks don't have access to ranges beyond a thousand yards. .300WM is good to 1200-1300 while .338LM is good to 1500-1600 yards for average long range shooters. Going beyond that takes quite a bit more skill.

As for .50 DTC vs .408CT, there are some things to consider: Getting dies is about the same; you're not going to be able to shop around on Midway or Cabela's and find them for the most part. You'll have to custom order them or call CH4D. .408 and quality .50BMG brass is expensive, but you've got to trim, size, anneal and fire form the latter to .50 DTC. You could always start with factory ammo, but getting that for .50 DTC is about the same for .408 - few sources. The number one advantage I can see of going the DTC route is that .50 cal bullets are widely available in all kinds of configurations. You can shoot cheap pulled bullets or get lathed turned solids, etc.

For these reasons I think it's really a matter of personal preference and desire. The situation would be slightly different if we were talking .50BMG instead.

C.G.
07-16-2009, 3:31 PM
Honestly, the reason I recommend .300WM and .338LM for most people who want to get into long range precision shooting is that they're generally less expensive (particularly .300WM) and most folks don't have access to ranges beyond a thousand yards. .300WM is good to 1200-1300 while .338LM is good to 1500-1600 yards for average long range shooters. Going beyond that takes quite a bit more skill.


Good advice. Originally I planned to get the .408 Chey Tac, but ended up with .338 LM with no regrets. It is difficult in my area to go beyond 1000 yards and I don't have the time to drive around the state nor have I the skill yet to go beyond 1600 yards.

grahlaika
07-16-2009, 3:47 PM
Grahlaika, the more makers offering the .408 the better..I take it you are one of the "cool" kids shooting a Lawton? How do you like it?

I can neither confirm nor deny that I own any firearms. I use this forum for entertainment purposes only. Having said that, I've read on other forums that people enjoy shooting their .375's out in the desert to 2500 yards and beyond, and that Lawton makes some kick-*** actions and rifles.

duraglock
07-16-2009, 6:31 PM
If you get the 50 dtc you can always get a 408 conversion later. Tom is a great guy and if you do get a rifle from him I heard he really takes the time to show you how to use it and reload for it.Plus they have some 1000yd matches down your way that area good to go that Tom started and another shooter is helping him run. The 408 is calm compared to the 50 bmg.

titus7
07-26-2009, 2:28 PM
Alright fellers Im about a week away from making a purchase for Im thinking the 408 Windrunner. But before I do Im ask one last question to those who own them or who have owned them or even shot them. If you could do it all over again and could only have 1 ELR rifle would the Windrunner 408 be one of your options??? And Im not asking if you could have just one rifle Im asking if you had a choice of just 1 Extreme Long Range rifle?

Jonathan Doe
07-26-2009, 3:38 PM
I would say that the people who want those types of calibers are into long range sniping/shooting. I want to ask them if they are capable of delivering the rounds at that distance. I shoot my 308 Win in matches at beyond 600 yards, and I hit my targets. You will have to deal with wind and other factors. No matter what guns you have, if you cannot deliver the rounds accurately, the guns are no use for anything.

brando
07-26-2009, 3:52 PM
If I could do it all over again I think the .408 Windrunner is a bit overkill and would just get a .375 Cheytac (aka .375/408) built by Lawton. Much lighter and less bulky as well as a superior round. I still a .338LM is a reasonable choice for an ELR rifle as most folks don't get much of an opportunity to shoot them at their limit.

But maybe you're like me - I just wanted a damned .408 Windrunner

titus7
07-26-2009, 7:14 PM
LOL yeah Im afraid that is how I am. Im supposed to call Lawton tomorrow and see what they have to offer I just cant seem to get over the look and portability factor with the windrunner. I am sure that Ill have a crapload more questions for all you guys when I actually make a decision and get whatever ima get so please forgive me and have patience for my lack of knowledge.

bomb_on_bus
07-26-2009, 7:22 PM
EDMARMS website said it has a few thousand rounds of .408 cheytac maybe thats worth looking into.

titus7
07-26-2009, 7:29 PM
Where on their site does it say that??