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mgbebout
07-10-2009, 12:48 PM
I have a question regarding onboard ammo storage with the Springfield M6 Scout.

If one were to keep an M6 Scout in the car in a locked condition as laid out by the law, would keeping ammunition stored in the stock compartment of the weapon be considered loaded and therefore a violation?

Thanks in advance.

reidnez
07-10-2009, 1:18 PM
Generally, ammunition attached to a firearm in any manner constitutes "loaded" in the eyes of the law, in any situation where loaded weapons are prohibited. For example, a sidesaddle shell holder on a shotgun, if it contains any shells, renders the shotgun "legally" loaded...

Just to be safe, I wouldn't do it.

MasterYong
07-10-2009, 1:18 PM
I'm 99% sure that loaded is defined as having the ammo in a place where it is ready to be chambered, or actually chambered, in the eyes of the law. So a loaded mag in the well is bad, but ammo in the stock would be OK.

DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT!!!

Fear not, the more educated and experienced CalGunners will be here soon!

ETA:

OOOOOOOPPPPSSSSSSSSS Don't listen to what I just said:

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

[Since this post concentrates on loaded, other parts of 12031 are omitted, including the definitions of other terms in (a)(1).]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

see this thread http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

reidnez
07-10-2009, 1:23 PM
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

Thanks for finding that, I was just looking for it! I knew I'd read that somewhere, once upon a time. The "including, but not limited to..." part is the key phrase here.

MasterYong
07-10-2009, 1:25 PM
Thanks for finding that, I was just looking for it! I knew I'd read that somewhere, once upon a time. The "including, but not limited to..." part is the key phrase here.

yeah I thought it had to be in a position where it could basically be racked and fired but I guess not.

I should really stop chiming in on these things before double-checking. There's too much shat to remember with these CA gun laws.

reidnez
07-10-2009, 1:32 PM
I should really stop chiming in on these things before double-checking. There's too much shat to remember with these CA gun laws.

Don't feel bad, I did the same thing ;). These laws are anything but intuitive.

lorax3
07-10-2009, 1:51 PM
Whoa...

Let us clear some things up one at a time.


If one were to keep an M6 Scout in the car in a locked condition as laid out by the law, would keeping ammunition stored in the stock compartment of the weapon be considered loaded and therefore a violation?

There is no requirement that a long arm be locked up while in a vehicle. As long as the long arm is unloaded you are okay with CA law. 18 USC 922(q) however is a federal school zone statute which prohibits any firearm within 1K feet of a school if that violation interferes with interstate commerce.

Ammo in the storage compartment located in the stock of that weapon would NOT make is loaded. See below.


The PC definition of loaded has been modified by People vs. Clark (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf). Just because ammunition is 'attached' to the firearm DOES NOT automatically make it loaded.

Please actually read the links in which you reference.

Librarian's 'loaded' FAQ (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660) was posted, if you read the entire page you will see:

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

[Since this post concentrates on loaded, other parts of 12031 are omitted, including the definitions of other terms in (a)(1).]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

THIS 12031(g) DEFINITION HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY CASE LAW!!!

The case is People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99

MasterYong
07-10-2009, 1:55 PM
Whoa...

One at a time..



There is no requirement that a long arm be locked up while in a vehicle. As long as the long arm is unloaded you are okay with CA law. 18 USC 922(q) however is a federal school zone statue which prohibits any firearm within 1K feet of a school if that violation interferes with interstate commerce.

Ammo in the storage compartment located in the stock of that weapon would NOT make is loaded. See below.


The PC definition of loaded has been modified by People vs. Clark (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf). Just because ammunition is 'attached' to the firearm DOES NOT automatically make it loaded.

Please actually read the links in which you reference.

Librarian's 'loaded' FAQ was posted, if you read the entire page you will see:

Huh. Someone should really edit or delete the "is it loaded" thread then....

At least in this case the err was on the side of caution, so to speak. Couldn't get in trouble for NOT putting the ammo in the stock (yet...LOL) but could reasonably have gotten in trouble (prior to understanding the case law you cited) for having the ammo there. In fact, if an LEO called in, and someone quoted him the PC, would they really know about the case law until it got out of hand anyways?

Damn this stuff confuses me. I think I'll just sell all my guns and sit in my home with all the doors locked pretending I'm safe and dreaming of the day when it's once again safe to own firearms without fear of prosecution for abiding by nature's law of common sense. NOT. :43:

lorax3
07-10-2009, 2:10 PM
Huh. Someone should really edit or delete the "is it loaded" thread then....


Are you referring to the link you posted (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)in a previous response?

If so, why would that need to be edited or deleted? I fail to find any false or misleading information there.

MasterYong
07-10-2009, 2:17 PM
Are you referring to the link you posted (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)in a previous response?

If so, why would that need to be edited or deleted? I fail to find any false or misleading information there.

Unless I'm mistaken, to me it appears to state in the OPs that carrying the ammo attached to the weapon under the (g) subsection is illegal. That's why I cited that thread. Then, you have graciously pointed out that it's inaccurate. I was making the recommendation on that basis, but apparently I misread the thread. I prefer that you are right, personally, since I like that having shells on the carrier on the stock of my shotgun doesn't count as loaded. Funny I was right the first time, then corrected myself, only to find the my, er, correction was incorrect.

If I wasn't born in the most beautiful part of the US I swear I'd move.

lorax3
07-10-2009, 2:28 PM
Funny I was right the first time, then corrected myself, only to find the my, er, correction was incorrect.

It is all good, glad to see everyone is back on the same page.

aplinker
07-10-2009, 3:41 PM
Yeah, simply put... loaded means actually loaded.

In a stock isn't loaded.

I love my M6. Which version do you have?

SS 22lr here. I really wish I had a 22Hornet.

mgbebout
07-10-2009, 4:31 PM
Thanks for the info everyone. So what I hear is having ammo in the carrier is OK. Since it's not a handgun it doesn't have to be locked up. Being anywhere near a school is bad.

UCLA - I have the 22 hornet but didn't get the SS version. Wish I would have got the SS version.

Someone showed me about wrapping the lower barrel with parachute cord which really does makes the gun more pleasent to shoot.

Thanka again everyone

aplinker
07-10-2009, 4:34 PM
Thanks for the info everyone. So what I hear is having ammo in the carrier is OK. Since it's not a handgun it doesn't have to be locked up. Being anywhere near a school is bad.

UCLA - I have the 22 hornet but didn't get the SS version. Wish I would have got the SS version.

Someone showed me about wrapping the lower barrel with parachute cord which really does makes the gun more pleasent to shoot.

Thanka again everyone

To drive within 1000' of a school it should be locked up (trunk, case, gun rack).

I guess we get to envy one another! :D

I did the lower barrel wrapping, too. Just be sure to not wrap too tight - you can bend the barrels.