PDA

View Full Version : Am I screwed?


Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 6:48 PM
When I first starting cleaning the bore of my colt sporter I noticed a slight blue color on the patch...that only means one thing..corrosion. I spent at least a good hour cleaning out the barrel with hoppes #9 and break free. I also disassembled, inspected, and cleaned the bolt assembly. I closely examined the inside of the barrel and as far as I could see there where no pits or uneven surface but should I still be worried? I remember years ago I purchased some chinese ammo that clearly said "non-corrosive" on the box. Non corrosive my @ss!!!! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif It wasn't till I had pumped almost a hundred rounds through my sporter some dude at the range walked up to me and told me that the brand of ammo I was shooting WAS in fact corrosive. Great. http://www.calguns.net/banghead.gif What do you think I should do fellas? I'll give it another cleaning tomorrow but I was wondering if there was anything I could buy tonight that might clean out any nasty junk I might miss during cleaning. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 6:48 PM
When I first starting cleaning the bore of my colt sporter I noticed a slight blue color on the patch...that only means one thing..corrosion. I spent at least a good hour cleaning out the barrel with hoppes #9 and break free. I also disassembled, inspected, and cleaned the bolt assembly. I closely examined the inside of the barrel and as far as I could see there where no pits or uneven surface but should I still be worried? I remember years ago I purchased some chinese ammo that clearly said "non-corrosive" on the box. Non corrosive my @ss!!!! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif It wasn't till I had pumped almost a hundred rounds through my sporter some dude at the range walked up to me and told me that the brand of ammo I was shooting WAS in fact corrosive. Great. http://www.calguns.net/banghead.gif What do you think I should do fellas? I'll give it another cleaning tomorrow but I was wondering if there was anything I could buy tonight that might clean out any nasty junk I might miss during cleaning. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

imported_lunde
05-10-2005, 7:00 PM
In my experience, blue means copper fouling.

imported_TMC
05-10-2005, 7:04 PM
Don't panic, its just copper fouling. It always comes out blue-green on the patches.

Now that its clean go shoot some groups. If it shoots good its fine.

imported_QuarterBoreGunner
05-10-2005, 7:06 PM
Ken is correct; blue almost always means copper fouling. Get some Sweet's 7.62 or other copper solvent and use per the instructions and you should be good to go.

You can usually tell copper fouling by tilting the barrel at a slight angle and peering into the bore from the muzzle end (and of course all safety precautions apply); copper fouling will look like rust in the grooves.

imported_Telpierion
05-10-2005, 7:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ken is correct; blue almost always means copper fouling. Get some Sweet's 7.62 or other copper solvent and use per the instructions and you should be good to go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to go all out try this methode I found on a C&R board:

I've spent an interesting few hours this weekend making and using a simple battery-operated, electronic bore cleaner, the performance of which has amazed me. Total cost to me was £1 for a cheap torch as I had everything else lying around the place.

The principle of how the device works is simple. In effect it is reverse-electroplating removing copper and lead deposits from inside the barrel and depositing them onto a steel rod inserted into the barrel. The rod can be removed, cleaned and used again. Please note that this is not a routine cleaning method for use after a day's shooting but rather one to be used on, for example, a newly-acquired, military rifle with a dirty bore that resists all conventional attempts to clean it or one whose accuracy has seriously deteriorated.

Here's how to make the device. Take an old two-cell torch (or simply tape two torch batteries together + to - ) and solder a red wire to the bulb holder (or + terminal) and a black wire to the spring in the torch base (or - terminal). Attach crocodile clips to the ends of the two wires. Touch the two clips together and if the bulb lights then all is well. That's the power source complete.

Now you need a steel rod that will go down the length of the barrel to act as the cathode. I used a 1/8" diameter length of model aircraft undercarriage wire but a non-varnished wire coathanger will do just as well. The rod must be insulated at points along its length to prevent it short-circuiting against the barrel. I used 1/2" lengths of plastic insulation stripped from an old car aerial coaxial lead. You will also need a bung of some description to plug the breech. I made one from half a plastic wine bottle "cork" carved and sanded to a tapered shape but you can no doubt buy them ready made. Sharpen the end of the rod and push it into the centre of the bung. Rub the rod with emery paper or steel wool to ensure that it is bright, shiny and clean. Run a dry patch down the rifle bore to remove all traces of oil.

Pass the insulated steel rod down from the muzzle and fit the sharpened end into the bung at the receiver then press the bung firmly into the breech to seal it. Stand the rifle vertically on its butt secured so it can't fall over. Wrap a couple of turns of tape around the muzzle to form a shallow cup (to catch any frothing) and then tie a piece of rag around the muzzle in case of any accidental spillage. Make sure that a piece of insulation touches the bore at the muzzle and not part of the bare rod.

Now pour ordinary household ammonia to about 1/4" below the muzzle and check that there are no leaks at the breech. I used a syringe to fill up the barrel as pouring direct from the bottle resulted in too much spillage. (As an alternative you can use a mixture of 2 parts distilled water, 1 part ammonia and 1 part clear vinegar.)

Now connect the + terminal alligator clip to the fore or rear sight and clip the negative lead to the rod protruding from the muzzle. If the torch bulb lights then you have a short circuit somewhere and need to check the insulation.

Straight away, if all is well, you will see bubbles and frothing in the muzzle. Leave it running for no more than one hour (topping up the solution as required) and then unclip the negative lead from the rod, pull the rod out of the muzzle and pour the used solution into a container.

My rod was absolutely covered in thick, black deposits that were easily wiped off with a piece of rag. You then need to clean the bore using your normal solvents etc and then oil it to prevent rusting. More loose deposits came out on my patches.

I used this method on my 1895 Lee Metford Cavalry Carbine which has always had a "dark" but crisp bore and has resisted all conventional cleaning methods. It would be stretching the truth to describe the bore as "mirror" post-cleaning but it certainly shines now and the grooves are much, much cleaner. Whether it will shoot any better though is anyone's guess but it will be fun finding out.

Havn't tried it myself yet so I can't give my own account of how well it works.

Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 7:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Todd:
Don't panic, its just copper fouling. It always comes out blue-green on the patches.

Now that its clean go shoot some groups. If it shoots good its fine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank god http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'll look for some good copper solvent tomorrow.

Sydwaiz
05-10-2005, 8:24 PM
Yup, copper. Bore cleaners with ammonia will remove copper. Use a plastic brush or you'll just keep seeing blue on the patch from the brass bristles and you'll never think it's clean. I prefer Sweets but Barnes CR-10 works good too. Make sure you oil your barrel afterwards. And NO, ammonia does not harm your barrel.

I wouldn't worry about corrosive ammo either unless you're the type to not clean your guns for awhile. As long as you clean it when you get home or atleast the next day, you should be fine. And if your barrel is chrome lined, even better.

ETA: Dang, I was typing the same time Ted was!

Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 8:48 PM
Ducati. What kind of barrel is yours? post, pre, chrome lined or chrome molly
Here's something that relates to Bill Weiss' posts about chrome lined barrels.

well the markings on my barrel are as follows: C MP. According to bighammer.net my barrel is chromed chambered and magnetic particle tested. Oh and the barrel is a preban. What do you think?

Technical Ted
05-10-2005, 9:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducati748r:
Ducati. What kind of barrel is yours? post, pre, chrome lined or chrome molly
Here's something that relates to Bill Weiss' posts about chrome lined barrels.

well the markings on my barrel are as follows: C MP. According to bighammer.net my barrel is chromed chambered and magnetic particle tested. Oh and the barrel is a preban. What do you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Turns out bigger hammer is a little dated.

Updated information in Black Rifle II by Christopher R. Bartocci (Collector's Grade Publications, 2004). Chart entitled Barrel Marking Guide on page 286. The first C stands for Colt. MP means it was proofed then metal particle tested.

On military barrels (M4's and M16's) an O stamped into the exterior taper (under the handguards) near the handguard slip ring (Verified this on an M4 barrel).

The C,B or CB system to indicate chromed chamber only, chromed bore AND chamber or Chamber and Bore was used in the early M16's and AR15s with 1:12 twist barrels.

(Again referring to the Black Rifle II) Colt has produced a surpising number of commercial models of "A2" style Sporters, Match HBARs and Match Targets without chrome lining since the late 1980's. 29 commercial model numbers total starting with the R6601 "Sporter Match HBAR"--Mostly heavy barrels. Of those 29 only 7 models had chrome lined bores.

Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 10:07 PM
Hmmm..I wonder how I can determine if my barrel is chrome lined or not.

Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Technical Ted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducati748r:
Ducati. What kind of barrel is yours? post, pre, chrome lined or chrome molly
Here's something that relates to Bill Weiss' posts about chrome lined barrels.

well the markings on my barrel are as follows: C MP. According to bighammer.net my barrel is chromed chambered and magnetic particle tested. Oh and the barrel is a preban. What do you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Turns out bigger hammer is a little dated.

Updated information in Black Rifle II by Christopher R. Bartocci (Collector's Grade Publications, 2004). Chart entitled Barrel Marking Guide on page 286. The first C stands for Colt. MP means it was proofed then metal particle tested.

On military barrels (M4's and M16's) an O stamped into the exterior taper (under the handguards) near the handguard slip ring (Verified this on an M4 barrel).

The C,B or CB system to indicate chromed chamber only, chromed bore AND chamber or Chamber and Bore was used in the early M16's and AR15s with 1:12 twist barrels.

(Again referring to the Black Rifle II) Colt has produced a surpising number of commercial models of "A2" style Sporters, Match HBARs and Match Targets without chrome lining since the late 1980's. 29 commercial model numbers total starting with the R6601 "Sporter Match HBAR"--Mostly heavy barrels. Of those 29 only 7 models had chrome lined bores. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I checked to see which model number my sporter is. Providing bigger hammer is accurate I have a model R6551. So I have a chrome lined barrel according to what you've read. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Technical Ted
05-10-2005, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducati748r:
Hmmm..I wonder how I can determine if my barrel is chrome lined or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Pull the upper handguard and see if there's an O stamped on the barrel exterior near the slip ring (delta); 2) Remove the flash suppressor and clean off the muzzle to see if theres a light gray deposit of chrome around the bore--usually best on new barrels; 3) Look in the clean chamber and see if its the shiny or satin gray of chrome as opposed to a dark gun metal gray of steel; 4a) or if the upper is with the original lower, send me the prefix letters to the serial (examples: CH, MH, CMH, CST, CJC and many more). I don't need the actual numbers); or 4b) Tell me what it says on the left side of the mag well under the horse logo(examples: SPORTER MATCH HBAR or MATCH TARGET MATCH HBAR; 4c) Call Colt and try to get them to run the S/N and pull up a manufacturing history without charging you the $100 historical research fee http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ducati748r
05-10-2005, 11:06 PM
On the side it says:

SPORTER
TARGET MODEL
CAL. .233
SER.ST 01XXXX

Very interesting..there is no <span class="ev_code_RED">O</span>stamped on the barrel near the delta ring but there is star stamped on the top of the barrel near the delta ring. Any ideas what that might mean?

Technical Ted
05-10-2005, 11:39 PM
Google of "Colt Sporter Target Model" turned up this website: http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir5/m16c.txt

There's a commment about the 2/3rds down--under a historical note entitled "Beware the Ides of March" (Which Stanze, BB and a few others might find an interesting note that they can look up themselves) http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Biggerhammer is probably right about your's being a 6551. The 6551 was produced during a transitional period in Colts history.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...It should be noted that during the 1990 year production, Colt
incorporated a number of change to the Sporter's lower
receiver. First, it is possible to find receivers with their
original AR-15 and Colt's Firearms Div. markings or
the newer Sporter and C.M.C. markings. Second, the
constuction of the lower receiver was change to one which
followed that of the M-16A2 more closely. This can be seen
in the beefing up of the rear of the receiver and the boss
around the magazine release. At some point the M-16 type,
front lower receiver, push pin replaced the screw type, used
on the early AR's. And finally, by the end of 1990, Colt, had
placed a pinned in block into the lower receiver to prevent
the use of auto sears. As usually it seems that Colt added
these changes as old parts were used up. These changes don't
seem to occur at the same time in each model.
Because of this, one can find many variations in the 1990
year production.

Sporter/Target Model (Cat.#R-6551) same as R-6550K. No
conversion kit with this model. Receivers changes as
describe previously. Boxes now have blue label. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turbinator
05-11-2005, 8:10 AM
For cleaning fouling out, I'm trying a new product called Wipe Out. You spray this foam-like material in your bore, leave it overnight, and wipe it out the next morning. I've tried it once so far, seems ok.. but I don't have any solid conclusions yet. The stuff comes out blue in the morning - which indicates copper fouling.

I'll keep everyone posted as I figure out how good or bad this product is.

Turby

Ducati748r
05-11-2005, 8:16 AM
Someone suggested sweets 7.62 so I'll give it a shot. Also using a nylon bore brush instead of copper would be better as some ppl have said. So I'm off to target masters or maybe even reeds indoor range. I just wish there was a gun store closer to fremont. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

bwiese
05-11-2005, 9:18 AM
<LI> If you have a chromed barrel, use care in using ammonia-based compounds like Hoppe's #9, etc. They are not good for the chrome lining. If you do decide to use them, use them for just a few minutes (i.e., til clean) then completely clean any residue - a solvent like alcohol or BrakeClean can help. Of course then you should run patches with CLP/BreakFree thru.

<LI> Esp. for a chromed milspec barrel, copper fouling seems to be self-limiting. You're gonna get more accuracy gain by using match ammo and free-floating your handguards than by diligently clearing the copper fouling. If you keep your copper fouling at an average level, and stay zeroed there, there will be less variance from having the copper fouling than cleaning well and watching your POI change over time as copper fouling accumulates!

<LI> I believe that Colt commercial/consumer rifles ("Match Target" etc.) after 97 or so often did not have chrome lined barrels but did have chrome-lined chambers. Since barrels wear out in front of the chamber (chamber erosion) faster than the actual bore wears out, this is a good compromise.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Ducati748r
05-11-2005, 2:00 PM
Well I went ahead and purchased some shooters choice copper cleaner and a nylon bore brush. spent an hour cleaning out the bore. Looks like it's good to go. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif