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nick
07-06-2009, 10:14 PM
I just picked up Remington 700 Police in .308 (Turner's special from a couple of weeks ago). I LOVE the trigger! No creep at all, adjustable 3.5#, breaks like glass. Yes, I'm probably repeating some Remington commercial, but I really really like it. My last 700 was a custom job, and I fully expected to do a trigger job on this one from the getgo, since it's a production model and all. Now I'm not so sure. I think, I'll give this trigger a try.

On to finding a proper scope. Swarovski or older Leupold should do it. I'm not picky :)

bombadillo
07-06-2009, 10:17 PM
Congrats, they have nikons on sale right now at midway for 299 for a 3-12x50 at the moment. I'd snag one but i'm broke and going to hawaii.

DanHuuN
07-06-2009, 10:29 PM
I love mines as well....put a Leupold on mine...Mark IV 3.5-10 TMR

nick
07-06-2009, 10:43 PM
Congrats, they have nikons on sale right now at midway for 299 for a 3-12x50 at the moment. I'd snag one but i'm broke and going to hawaii.

Nikon is another one I'm considering, but I'm not familiar with them. I heard bad things about the quality of the recent Leupolds though. Oh well, might have to go with a Swarovski, if the budget allows. Gotta keep it in the family.

nick
07-06-2009, 10:44 PM
I love mines as well....put a Leupold on mine...Mark IV 3.5-10 TMR

WHich rings and base did you use? How does it hold zero with your setup?

Jicko
07-07-2009, 12:08 AM
WHich rings and base did you use? How does it hold zero with your setup?

If a Leupold MARK 4 won't hold zero, I don't know what else will...


Base recommendations:
- Badger 20MOA
- Nightforce 20MOA
- Leupold MARK4 20MOA

Rings recommendations:
- Badger
- Nightforce UL
- Leupold MARK4

There maybe others, but you won't be wrong with the above suggestions.

nick
07-07-2009, 12:27 AM
'Tis all depends on how hard you hit it :)

RT13
07-07-2009, 1:00 AM
You cant beat Bushnell Elite series for the quality and price. I have the Elite on my 700 SPS and love it. I chose it over the Nikon and Leupold after reading reviews and comparing the quality and price.

DanHuuN
07-07-2009, 1:41 AM
I used a U.S. Optics 20moa one piece base and badger rings...

xLusi0n
07-07-2009, 4:02 AM
Make the best upgrade ever and cut that barrel down to 18-20"

forgiven
07-07-2009, 4:21 AM
Wow, sorry to hear about the newer Leupolds. All the Leupolds I've owned through the years have been great. The only scope I thought was better was a Swarovski.

rksimple
07-07-2009, 6:37 AM
Wow, sorry to hear about the newer Leupolds. All the Leupolds I've owned through the years have been great. The only scope I thought was better was a Swarovski.

There are plenty of scopes better than Leupold...Nightforce, Zeiss, Schmidt and Bender, Premier, Swaro, USO, etc.

To the OP: If you're looking at Loopy price range, check into the Nightforce. Much, much better scope.

nick
07-07-2009, 6:50 AM
Make the best upgrade ever and cut that barrel down to 18-20"

What would be the benefit of this?

nick
07-07-2009, 6:51 AM
There are plenty of scopes better than Leupold...Nightforce, Zeiss, Schmidt and Bender, Premier, Swaro, USO, etc.

To the OP: If you're looking at Loopy price range, check into the Nightforce. Much, much better scope.

I heard good things about them. How do they compare to Swarovski, for example?

lazuris
07-07-2009, 7:02 AM
LOL There is nothing wrong with the MK 4 series scopes. They are rock solid for about 99% of what you're going to do. Would I throw my rifle down a hill to prove my scope is better hell no but thats the selling point for some of the higher priced scopes. The S&B's its all about the glass, best i've ever seen. Now to be honest I am looking at a nightforce 5.5-22 for my .338LM. I love my MK4's but I am interested in trying the nightforce espically on the heavy recoil rifles. But on a .308 MK4 is perfect.

No matter what scope you buy if you buy cheap rings and cheap scope bases you're going to have scope movement. I'd go with the MK 4 rings.

Scope bases I use a nightforce 20min base.

Last week at WEGC with my stock 700p (308) MK4 4.5-14 @ 100yds I shot a .2" 3 shot group "measured outside edges minus bullet diameter" prone with a squeeze bag. 175g Nosler 44.6g Varget Lapuabrass, 210m. Mag length.

You'll love this gun I promise.

rksimple
07-07-2009, 7:06 AM
I heard good things about them. How do they compare to Swarovski, for example?

Swaro makes more of a hunting scope. Glass is great, but they lack other features necessary for a tactical/precision rifle.

Glass on the S&B and Zeiss is swaro quality and above. NF has decent glass but a bombproof track record. Premier has plenty of features for the money. USO can get you just about anything custom you want.

What type of shooting do you have in mind?

rksimple
07-07-2009, 7:28 AM
Read a little bit about the new Leupolds here. (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1203770&page=1) Its an interesting read.

Then run a quick search and you'll find even more fun little problems.

glockman19
07-07-2009, 7:32 AM
Congrats!!! I recently bought one with scope, bipod, case and extra leoupold scope mounts for $900.

dfletcher
07-07-2009, 7:36 AM
I just picked up Remington 700 Police in .308 (Turner's special from a couple of weeks ago). I LOVE the trigger! No creep at all, adjustable 3.5#, breaks like glass. Yes, I'm probably repeating some Remington commercial, but I really really like it. My last 700 was a custom job, and I fully expected to do a trigger job on this one from the getgo, since it's a production model and all. Now I'm not so sure. I think, I'll give this trigger a try.


If it has the Mark X trigger it's basically the same as the old 700 trigger but with smoother surfaces so in theory should give a better pull. The only "problem" regarding the Mark X is that Remington "semi perm" loctites the sear engagement screw (housing rear) and the over travel (housing front top) and the only adjustment that can be readily made is to spring pressure (housing front bottom) of the trigger. A little direct heat to the loctited screws will however allow you to make adjustments to sear & overtravel if you like.

X-NewYawker
07-07-2009, 7:39 AM
You have been blessed with a fine rifle. I've had 700s out of the box with wonderful triggers and excellent accuracy. I don't know if you want to hear this, but DO NOT put a $2-300 scope on this gun! You will not be happy. Get a quality Vari-X 3 new or used Leupold off Ebay or online (there are some real deals out there) and sturdy mounts and rings.

Seekins? http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_7385.jpg
NIghtforce?
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/L1010347.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_6408.jpg
You will not regret it.

When people recommend a lower priced scope, it always ends up costing MORE because that scope will not satisfy you and you'll end up buying the proper scope later.

nick
07-07-2009, 7:51 AM
Swaro makes more of a hunting scope. Glass is great, but they lack other features necessary for a tactical/precision rifle.

Glass on the S&B and Zeiss is swaro quality and above. NF has decent glass but a bombproof track record. Premier has plenty of features for the money. USO can get you just about anything custom you want.

What type of shooting do you have in mind?

At this point I'm still considering the options, stupid as it sounds (buy the rifle first, decide what to use it for later, can't go wrong with that approach :)). This was a "sustained impulse" buy, as in I'm partial to Remington 700s and wanted a precision one in .308 for about a year now, having shot one for a few years a while back (when I was a few years younger and my right eye was quite a bit better).

I'm planning to shoot at up to 800 yds, I was never good for more than that, maybe up to 1000 yds (might as well improve a bit), although most of the shooting will likely be 100-600 yds, given the limitations of the ranges I go to.

That being said, I was never into benchrest shooting, so I'll probably practice a little bit of everything else, just to update the skills I used to have and maybe improve upon them. It may be used for hunting, although it's not very likely, I have much lighter options for that (Remington 700 ADL and 742 in .30-06). Still, I like my weapons sturdy. Ever seen a bent barrel? Well, I have, having created one. So I'll probably invest in really study base and rings, and I still need to research a sturdy scope.

The Rem 700 I shot a while back had a Mk. IV, but that was a while back, and I heard their quality went downhill since then. Pity, I really liked that scope. That setup didn't lose zero even after I crash-landed on the rifle (see why I need a rugged scope setup? :)

I'm also planning to convert this rifle to be magazine fed down the road. Basically, I plan it to be an ongoing project.

Does it make any sense? And by the way, I appreciate the reply, guys, good info here.

nick
07-07-2009, 7:52 AM
Congrats!!! I recently bought one with scope, bipod, case and extra leoupold scope mounts for $900.

Nice buy. I paid that (plus tax) for the rifle alone :)

nick
07-07-2009, 7:54 AM
If it has the Mark X trigger it's basically the same as the old 700 trigger but with smoother surfaces so in theory should give a better pull. The only "problem" regarding the Mark X is that Remington "semi perm" loctites the sear engagement screw (housing rear) and the over travel (housing front top) and the only adjustment that can be readily made is to spring pressure (housing front bottom) of the trigger. A little direct heat to the loctited screws will however allow you to make adjustments to sear & overtravel if you like.

Oh, but I like the trigger so far :)

nick
07-07-2009, 7:58 AM
You have been blessed with a fine rifle. I've had 700s out of the box with wonderful triggers and excellent accuracy. I don't know if you want to hear this, but DO NOT put a $2-300 scope on this gun! You will not be happy. Get a quality Vari-X 3 new or used Leupold off Ebay or online (there are some real deals out there) and sturdy mounts and rings.

When people recommend a lower priced scope, it always ends up costing MORE because that scope will not satisfy you and you'll end up buying the proper scope later.

Oh, I'm not planning to put a crappy scope on it. Hence the research. If Leupolds didn't go down in quality, the choice would be easy, as I'm familiar with Mk. IV. But they did, and so I'm looking for something else.

rksimple
07-07-2009, 8:10 AM
At this point I'm still considering the options, stupid as it sounds (buy the rifle first, decide what to use it for later, can't go wrong with that approach :)). This was a "sustained impulse" buy, as in I'm partial to Remington 700s and wanted a precision one in .308 for about a year now, having shot one for a few years a while back (when I was a few years younger and my right eye was quite a bit better).

I'm planning to shoot at up to 800 yds, I was never good for more than that, maybe up to 1000 yds (might as well improve a bit), although most of the shooting will likely be 100-600 yds, given the limitations of the ranges I go to.

That being said, I was never into benchrest shooting, so I'll probably practice a little bit of everything else, just to update the skills I used to have and maybe improve upon them. It may be used for hunting, although it's not very likely, I have much lighter options for that (Remington 700 ADL and 742 in .30-06). Still, I like my weapons sturdy. Ever seen a bent barrel? Well, I have, having created one. So I'll probably invest in really study base and rings, and I still need to research a sturdy scope.

The Rem 700 I shot a while back had a Mk. IV, but that was a while back, and I heard their quality went downhill since then. Pity, I really liked that scope. That setup didn't lose zero even after I crash-landed on the rifle (see why I need a rugged scope setup? :)

I'm also planning to convert this rifle to be magazine fed down the road. Basically, I plan it to be an ongoing project.

Does it make any sense? And by the way, I appreciate the reply, guys, good info here.


Read up on precision rifle scopes. Ask questions here. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=123) Read this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=154413) and this. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=199178) Come on out to a shoot or match and see what people are using. Many of the things you may not see as necessary will become essential as you begin to use the rifle under practical conditions. Thats the problem with buying a high end scope right off the bat: You don't know what you really want.

M1A Rifleman
07-07-2009, 8:25 AM
I put a Mark 4 on my PSS and could be happier.

nick
07-07-2009, 9:17 AM
Read up on precision rifle scopes. Ask questions here. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=123) Read this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=154413) and this. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=199178) Come on out to a shoot or match and see what people are using. Many of the things you may not see as necessary will become essential as you begin to use the rifle under practical conditions. Thats the problem with buying a high end scope right off the bat: You don't know what you really want.

I actually do know what I want. As I've said, I've been shooting precision rifles for a while. I've just been out of the loop for a while and don't know what's out there.

Good info there, thanks.

rksimple
07-07-2009, 9:27 AM
I actually do know what I want. As I've said, I've been shooting precision rifles for a while. I've just been out of the loop for a while and don't know what's out there.

Have you made a choice on FFP/SFP? Matching knobs and reticle? Units? Zero stop? Having a swaro as one of your options didn't make it sound like you knew what you wanted as they are NOT tactical/precision optics designed for long range precision.

Take a look at this (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/?p=1) article as well. Its a little dated, but gives a great overview.

Also, here's (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=193776) a little comparison I did with the S&B, NF, and Premier so you can get an idea of the reticles and relative glass differences.

nick
07-07-2009, 11:20 PM
Have you made a choice on FFP/SFP? Matching knobs and reticle? Units? Zero stop? Having a swaro as one of your options didn't make it sound like you knew what you wanted as they are NOT tactical/precision optics designed for long range precision.

Let me re-phrase what I said. I know (or think I know, which isn't necessarily the same thing) what I want. I don't know which scopes are out there, and the information you're giving me here is priceless that way. Having read much of the info in the links you provided (not all of it yet) and done some more research (in off hours, of course :)), I realized just how far ahead the technology has moved from what I used. Man, I may sound like an old fart now, but I'm only in mid-30's :)

My "choice" of Swarovski was based on the clarity of the optics of the couple I tried (and the assumption that it'd still be the case in whatever pricier models they might have (without knowing their model line-up, I'm not that far into choosing the scope yet, I'm still in the general information gathering stage)), the ruggedness of their spotting scope I had a while back, and, well, make sure you're sitting, the attraction of the name (it's my maternal grandmother's name) :) So calling it a choice is a bit of an overstatement on my part. Unfortunately, I usually sound quite sure of my knowledge, whether I actually am sure of it or not.

Take a look at this (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/?p=1) article as well. Its a little dated, but gives a great overview.

Some good info there, thank you.

Also, here's (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=193776) a little comparison I did with the S&B, NF, and Premier so you can get an idea of the reticles and relative glass differences.

Now THIS is what I was looking for! Got any more review threads like this?

Once again, I appreciate the info you're giving me here. The old bastards at Snipershide weren't nearly as nice :)

rksimple
07-08-2009, 6:32 AM
Finish up reading those articles and ask away. I usually recommend getting a lower priced, reliable optic and learning on it a bit. Go to some matches, shoot the rifle how you'd realistically be employing it, and see what you want and what you don't.

For me, the Premier fits the bill pretty well. If I could smash the Premier and S&B together and take what I wanted from each, I'd have the perfect scope. But the price tag on these optics may be a little high for most.

X-NewYawker
07-08-2009, 7:25 AM
My favorite thing on this site is when someone gets into their "Armalite/Springfield/Leupold/etc/s quality has gone down" usually using a thread form ANOTHER board to "prove this." I have scopes from all manufacturers. I also know Operators and the men who make t heir guns. The Leupold Mark IV scopes are still up there with the best. In Mark IV rings that are as solid and repeatable as any scope out there. Many people prefer the different zoom range of the Nightforce. Many other want a German scope no matter what. another confusing thing is that almost all scope and manufacturers now include more affordable models made to lesser spec, and sometimes bought from foreign companies and rebranded (Springfield XD pistols, for example)

Some crap on the Loopy because -- I love this -- the rangefinders are made in china! They make tons of shot there -- they make the electronics there. Our high School graduates are too stupid or too stoned or too busy protesting Carbon to make stuff anymore.

Dudes, the Tactical scopes are made here. In Oregon.

From Leupold:
"All Leupold Golden RingŪ Riflescopes are designed, machined, assembled, and tested in Leupold’s state of the art manufacturing facility in Beaverton, Oregon, USA. Leupold uses over one million pounds of aluminum, amounting to over 100 miles of extrusion, in its facility every year and has the largest installation of Index Turning Centers West of the Mississippi River. The current average tenure of Leupold’s all-American workforce is approximately eleven years, with the longest tenured employees being on staff for over four decades.
Leupold uses foreign sourced components for some parts of Golden Ring products, primarily lenses. This is because at this time, there is no American manufacturer that can supply the quantity of high quality lenses that Leupold needs for its annual Golden Ring Optics production. Leupold’s lens systems are designed at Leupold, by American optical engineers, in its state-of -the-art optics lab and then procured from outside vendors who must meet stringent quality standards.
Incoming parts are carefully inspected in our testing facility before they are accepted into the assembly process. Incidentally, all major optics producers worldwide acquire some or all of their glass from the same sources as Leupold. Some of these sources are located domestically, some are European, and some are Asian. Leupold has acquired its lenses this way for over 50 years."

So it's hilarious to see someone recommend a fully Japanese scope like a Nikon over a Loopy which might have lens ground in Asia -- but to THEIR specs -- and have all the body and mechanics manufactured here.

BTW -- Nighforce (for more money than a Leupold) doesn't make their components in the USA, either. They admit they only "design and assemble them" here. Outsourcing parts and assemblies has been part of our reality in guns, cars and TVs for years now.

Nightforce, Loopy, Millett, Nikon, these are all great tactical scopes of the power range meets your need, and they are mounted correctly. In practical applications, they are the match of any German scope.

USOptics, however, is truly a different animal. 100% American made, the scope itself is literally an indestructible machine.

it is also TWICE the cost of a Leupold or Nightforce.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_7361.jpg

rksimple
07-08-2009, 7:53 AM
Once again XNY, you're wrong. Keep drinking the koolaid. This is the best quote so far:


...Loopy, Millett, Nikon, these are all great tactical scopes of the power range meets your need, and they are mounted correctly. In practical applications, they are the match of any German scope.


Even USO has glass outsourced but OD ground here. So no go on the 100% thing. Check the new MKIV's. They DO NOT say made in USA. They would if that drivel from the Leupold website were true.

ETA: Just to clarify, I used to think Leupold scopes were the best, period, end of story. MKIV's are the best...blah, blah, blah...nobody could tell me otherwise. Then you start checking things out, reading the rest of the story, seeing them fail repeatedly and your opinion changes. I got an IOR and thought it was bada**. Way better than all these other scopes, awesome glass, cheaper than others, etc. Then it broke after 120 or so rounds. Failed completely. Had a friend that had the same thing happen with his...twice! I moved on in my thinking and thought USO scopes were the best by far! Bombproof, indestructable, etc. Then you start hearing, seeing and reading the rest of the story. I saw personally and heard firsthand reports of them failing bad...scopes were DOA. Thats why everyone knows USO CS is top notch...because people have had to use it. Then I thought S&B was the baddest sh** out there. Got one of those. Then I start hearing the rest of the story, seeing what everyone is experiencing, and having my own S&B 5-25 PMII break in the middle of a two day competition in another state. Opinions change again. Now I have a Premier that I'm working on breaking.:) Its holding up so far. Being at local precision rifle matches monthly and regional ones 3 or 4 times a year, you get to the point where you see A LOT of scopes, you see a lot of scopes go down, and you hear the firsthand reports of competitors other failed scopes. I pay attention, make mental notes, and steer clear of the most problematic brands. I got in on the first run of those SH IOR's and I swore I'd never do it again with a new line of scope. I took a chance on the Premier...we'll see how it goes.

Point is, any scope can and will break. With some, you just have better chances of that happening (cough*leupold**cough**). When you're buying a scope all you're buying in reliability is probability. The higher end scopes have much less probability of breaking, period. Knowing this, and with the current offerings from US companies like Premier and USO, and maybe Nightforce, those are probably the only companies I'll be dealing with in the future. At least that way when the scope breaks, I'm not waiting 4 months for my 3,000 dollar optic to come back from Germany.

And if you couldn't tell, I'm quite the cynic when it comes to optics. After having broken so many, thats just the way it goes.

ar15barrels
07-08-2009, 8:29 AM
my stock 700p (308) MK4 4.5-14 @ 100yds I shot a .2" 3 shot group "measured outside edges minus bullet diameter"

This is not an accurate method of measuring group sizes because the holes in target paper are never as large as the bullet diameter.

Measure a single hole and you will see what I am talking about.

bombadillo
07-08-2009, 8:30 AM
Randall, how do you typically measure? Center to center of the two furthest spread holes with a mic or what method is your choice?

ar15barrels
07-08-2009, 8:33 AM
Oh, but I like the trigger so far :)

I can make it better.

ar15barrels
07-08-2009, 8:35 AM
I put a Mark 4 on my PSS and could be happier.

Nightforce is for you then.

lazuris
07-08-2009, 8:41 AM
How would you measure a group then?

rksimple
07-08-2009, 8:42 AM
How would you measure a group then?

Measure a single hole in the paper and subtract that from the group size.

ar15barrels
07-08-2009, 8:43 AM
Randall, how do you typically measure? Center to center of the two furthest spread holes with a mic or what method is your choice?

I use autocad, but there's a free target measuring program out there now.

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/arteacher-group.jpg

dlouie87
07-08-2009, 11:00 AM
I'm not a competition shooter and I dont know a heck about the nicer scopes. But I just purchased a mark4 leupold for my 700. I'll let you know how it is when it comes in.

I just dont feel like I'm going to be using all the features on the higher end scopes and I can use the money I save for ammo to practice....that is what is going to help you shoot better....

5thstreet@sbcglobal.net
07-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Love my 700P ill never sell it I put a Leupold FX-III 12x40 on mine

Sheepdog1968
07-08-2009, 5:47 PM
I'm going through the same decision process myself. Honestly, I hate all of the choices I have. I am leaning towards the Sheppherd scope. I like the idea of the 18" rings on the reticle so I don't need to know the distance to hit center. I've got a friend who has one and loves it. I've looked through it and it seems fine. Any thoughts?

If don't go for the Shepherd, I'd probably go with a Leupold. The only reason is reputation. My guess is if I spend $600+ on a Leupold it's likely going to be a good scope.

nick
07-08-2009, 5:59 PM
I like the idea of the 18" rings on the reticle so I don't need to know the distance to hit center.

How does that work?

ar15barrels
07-08-2009, 6:04 PM
How does that work?

It only works if you have 18" targets and your scope is set on the proper power.

rksimple
07-08-2009, 6:06 PM
You need to know distance and conditions to hit things at long range. Shepherd scopes aren't magic. I don't where people come up with this stuff...

Learn how to use a mil dot reticle and be happy.

Nick-where are you located? There are regular LR matches in both socal and norcal. Just showing up and peeking through a few scopes, talking to the guys about their rigs, would be of more benefit than all of the crazy advice you may get in this thread. If you're in socal, we have a get together at the end of the month. You're welcome to come out and shoot one of my rifles.

nick
07-08-2009, 6:08 PM
It only works if you have 18" targets and your scope is set on the proper power.

Ah, never mind :)

nick
07-08-2009, 6:09 PM
You need to know distance and conditions to hit things at long range. Shepherd scopes aren't magic. I don't where people come up with this stuff...

Learn how to use a mil dot reticle and be happy.

Nick-where are you located? There are regular LR matches in both socal and norcal. Just showing up and peeking through a few scopes, talking to the guys about their rigs, would be of more benefit than all of the crazy advice you may get in this thread. If you're in socal, we have a get together at the end of the month. You're welcome to come out and shoot one of my rifles.

I'm in SoCal, thank you for the invitation. I might just accept it, my crazy work schedule permitting.