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View Full Version : Just got a call from a buddy of mine....458 Socom ND/AD inside his house.*update*


technique
07-04-2009, 6:26 PM
Ok...

Here is what I gathered from our phone conversation.

What happened:

This is what he said...
He wanted to mod is feed ramp. (he read something some where that recommended removing .005(?) from the feed ramp to improve feeding with large Gr. rounds.) Before the mod he loaded up some 500gr. and wanted to check how the fed first. (yeah, live ammo cycling in your home is a topic of debate...thats beside the point.)

He loads one up in a magazine, pops it in, pulls the charging handle and lets it go. BOOOOOOOOM! The round went through the floor and into the dirt under the home (no exit anywhere else, just through the floor.)

He said it was loud! No police came...well because it the 4th.:)


So what could be the cause?

He didn't put his finger on the trigger.
He cleans his guns after every shoot.
He has loaded a lot of .458 before.


My theory.

The primer was not seated properly. (in all the way)

I have personally toyed a lot with .458 SOCOMs and have never had something like this happen in any of the 5-6 uppers of various makes I have owned.

Any thoughts from you related to why this happened other than he shouldn't have been cycling live ammo in his home.:confused:

Plisk
07-04-2009, 6:45 PM
I would guess the primer, or maybe his firing pin? I've had an SKS firing 8 rounds on me because it's firing pin was held forward by a piece of debris. Maybe something similar?

THT
07-04-2009, 6:48 PM
The dreaded slamfire?

technique
07-04-2009, 6:58 PM
I think it was the Primer seated improperly.

The AR system has a "free float" firing pin. That is why it will leave an impression on a primer that has been cycled through and chambered.

Armalite added a spring in the AR10 BCG to remove the possibility of AD with softer primers used in .308...the AR10 firing pin is a bit on the heavy side for "free float"...

So maybe the the primer protruded a bit too far and, ignition.





Plisk maybe a stuck firing pin...I haven't looked at his gun yet. I will next time I head out his way.

SPUTTER
07-04-2009, 7:07 PM
Only one way to find out.Inspect the ammo, load up another mag and see if it does it again, but tell your buddy to take out in the desert somewhere.:o

DarkHorse
07-04-2009, 9:52 PM
If the bullet went into the floor, that would mean he was pointing the muzzle downwards (my alter-ego's name rhymes with obvious). If so, then perhaps the floating firing-pin had enough inertia to cause the AD/ND. If only his rifle had undergone the CA drop safety test, then we'd know for sure:P

MT1
07-04-2009, 10:04 PM
It shouldn't have gone off, it's good that he had it pointed down to the floor. I cycle live rounds all the time on the HD gun because none of mine go back into the safe loaded, so I'm not going to pick on someone for that other than saying if I am doing smith work I always use a dummy or snap cap because accidents like that do happen, mechanical objects are not perfect and don't always behave.

jumbopanda
07-04-2009, 10:19 PM
I cycle live rounds at home, but always make sure to point it in a safe direction. My AR barely even leaves a mark on the primer when cycling anymore ever since I switched to a 6.75oz buffer.

technique
07-04-2009, 10:21 PM
then perhaps the floating firing-pin had enough inertia to cause the AD/ND.

good point.







I did talk to him once more since my initial post. He added that it did happen to him once before. Not exactly but, He had a double while at the range once. Loaded it up, pulled the trigger once and 2 burst out. Also with his reloads.


I know he has a large # of rounds through the upper (for that type of gun anywho)....about 600-700 fired.

elsolo
07-04-2009, 11:19 PM
Since it has happened to him before...

Maybe his trigger is falling when the bolt slams into battery.

Since the guy reloads, why the hell didn't he just make a few dummy rounds?

jcaoloveshine
07-05-2009, 12:17 AM
458 socom is a helluva round to ND, glad everyone was ok. cant imagine how bad it would be if someone got hurt and the press got around to it.

rabagley
07-05-2009, 8:36 AM
Dare I suggest asking if he was using Federal LP primers?

workinwifdakids
07-05-2009, 10:26 AM
I'm teaching my 10-year-old daughter the rules of firearm safety. I know you want to know why this happened, but I called her over and read your post to her. I told her your friend and/or a member of his family is alive today because he followed RULE 2:

"Never allow the muzzle to cover anything you're not willing to kill or destroy."

Your post provided a good lesson for her, one I think she'll remember.

thedrickel
07-05-2009, 10:36 AM
I cycle live ammo at home all the time. BUT I ALWAYS REMOVE THE FIRING PIN FIRST!!

DirtRacer151
07-05-2009, 11:26 AM
I cycle live ammo at home all the time. BUT I ALWAYS REMOVE THE FIRING PIN FIRST!!

you cant do this with an AR. I tried it once and the cam pin was turning while the bolt was closed and making it VERY difficult to get the bolt to unlock from the extension lugs. the only way to do this and have it function as should for a function check is to get a spare firing pin and cut off the first 1/4 inch that protrudes so it wont ever contact the primer but will still hold the cam pin straight

technique
07-05-2009, 6:58 PM
Update


I think now my conclusion is that the primers are too soft. They should be CCI "extra hard" primers.

Load Data that is causing the issue.

Primers
Winchester Large Mag pistol
Projectiles
Barnes XP solid coper 300/500gr.
Powder
35gr. of Reloader #7


He said he went to the range today and it happened again. He pointed it downrange and chambered a round....BOOOOM, another slam fire.

It cycled the next round but that one did not go off on its own. He dropped the mag ejected the round that cycled, put it back in the mag, aimed down range chambered and BOOOOOOOM again.

It seems to only happen on the initial chambering of the weapon...in other words with a full mag it will not continue to slam fire one after the other until it empties its self......huh...too bad:43:









Any other thoughts? We can call this a conclusion? Need harder primers!

technique
07-05-2009, 7:25 PM
I'm teaching my 10-year-old daughter the rules of firearm safety. I know you want to know why this happened, but I called her over and read your post to her. I told her your friend and/or a member of his family is alive today because he followed RULE 2:

"Never allow the muzzle to cover anything you're not willing to kill or destroy."

Your post provided a good lesson for her, one I think she'll remember.

That is awesome! I mentioned this to my friend and he agreed. He was glad your daughter learned from his experience:).

mikecro1
07-05-2009, 11:42 PM
3 words....uuuuhhhhhh mahhhhh gaaaaaaawwwddd :p:hide:

SDgarrick
07-06-2009, 1:46 AM
happened to me recently with a glock and factory ammo. pulled the slide back, released and bang.

demonbacker56
07-06-2009, 2:34 AM
high primer. no doubt.

it would be smart to check for high primers...especially when you rack your gun in your house, probably not a good idea anyway but if you have to, just check the ammo.

reidnez
07-06-2009, 8:21 AM
This would scare the bejesus out of me. I live in an apartment, so you'd better believe someone would call the cops. :eek:

I make a policy of not chambering live rounds unless I'm at a range. The HD gun sits with a loaded magazine, chamber empty, safety off; I can still have it ready in an instant and it greatly, greatly reduces the chance of an accident. Not trying to be preachy here, that's just what I do.

nplant
07-06-2009, 11:31 AM
A friend of mine had his eye blown out because of soft primers in a .50BMG. It's serious, and if your friend KNOWS that the rounds do this, he should pull the bullets and recover the powder, and pop those primers. He should NOT continue to try to chamber them AT ALL.

All he needs is for one of those things to blow before the bolt is fully locked, and there goes his good health. Please tell him to stop firing them!

Also, unless he knows that the primers he used were not the right kind to use, he should let the manufacturer know. They might be very interested to try to stop any potential liability for defective primers.

JamesY
07-06-2009, 1:35 PM
I think the primer cups are too soft. Have him try military primers which have harder cups.

My theory of why it happens on the first round and not the rest:
- on the initial round, the firing pin has enough momentum to fire off a primer.

- on the second-tenth rounds, the bolt doesn't cycle as far back so the firing pin doesn't have the oomph to fire off a primer.

I don't think it has anything to do with high primers and more to do with "soft" primers. I have some CCI #34 for him to try if you guys are close by. I'm interested to see what the results would be.

SVRider
07-06-2009, 5:17 PM
Primers
Winchester Large Mag pistol

Uhhh....why was he using Large Pistol Mag primers to load rifle ammo for an autoloader???

Pistol primers are thinner cupped than rifle primers....since usually they can't hit as hard as rifle firing pins...

.

technique
07-06-2009, 5:19 PM
Uhhh....why was he using Large Pistol Mag primers to load rifle ammo for an autoloader???

Pistol primers are thinner cupped than rifle primers....since usually they can't hit as hard as rifle firing pins...

.

because thats what the Socom runs off of....magnum pistol primers. All load data calls for them.

SVRider
07-06-2009, 5:26 PM
because thats what the Socom runs off of....magnum pistol primers. All load data calls for them.

I see....I just looked at the TeppoJutsu website....I see it says the primer pockets are not deep enough to seat rifle primers. Sounds like a scary situation because the cups are thinner.....

C.G.
07-06-2009, 8:25 PM
because thats what the Socom runs off of....magnum pistol primers. All load data calls for them.

Yup, the .50 Beowulf is the same way. I use CCI Magnum Pistol primers for it.