Turner's Reseda PPT - FUD ?

[fd15k]

Folks,

I was doing a PPT on a C&R handgun with a fellow calgunner last night at Turner's in Reseda (Los Angeles city district). A few things I was told by the lady doing the transfer caught my attention.
First, I was asked if I have done another handgun purchase or transfer within last 30 days (I've done another PPT on a handgun recently, but I wasn't sure if it was out of 30 day period).
Second, I was sold a locking device. On both instances references to Los Angeles city laws were made, so I've tried to find them to verify.
What I found is there is indeed a 30 day limit on handgun purchases in Los Angeles city, which largely duplicates the California law. Here is relevant portion of it :

(b) No person shall make application to a dealer, as provided in Section 12072 of the California Penal Code, to purchase a pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, herein referred to as “*handgun*”, within thirty (30) days of making a prior application for the purchase of a handgun within the State of California. In computing the thirty (30) day period, the date the application is made shall be counted as the first day.

(c) No dealer shall transfer the title of any handgun to any person whom the dealer knows has made application to purchase more than one handgun within the State of California within a thirty (30) day period prior thereto, nor shall any dealer process a handgun transaction between unlicensed parties pursuant to California Penal Code Section 12072 if the dealer knows that the one receiving the handgun has made application to purchase more than one handgun within the State of California within a thirty (30) day period prior thereto.

(d) No dealer shall transfer the title of any handgun to any person or process a handgun transaction between unlicensed parties pursuant to California Penal Code Section 12072 if the dealer prior to transfer has received notice from the California Department of Justice, herein referred to as the “DOJ,” that DOJ has received an application for that person to purchase a handgun within the State of California within a thirty (30) day period prior thereto. For the purposes of this subsection, the date of application of purchase shall be the date the DOJ receives the Dealer Record of Sale or receives the transmission of required information by any medium of communication authorized under state law.

Entire thing can be found at this location :
http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/lamc/municipalcode/chaptervpublicsafetyandprotection?f=templates$fn=d ocument-frame.htm$3.0#JD_55.14.

I might be misreading it, but this law actually doesn't apply if one has done a PPT within 30 days, but it only applies if an "application to purchase" was made.

As for the locking device requirement, I was unable to find anything at all under Los Angeles city codes. More than that, my understanding was that sale of locking devices with handguns is in fact a federal law, from which C&R handguns are excluded. And California itself requires a locking device OR a CA DOJ approved gun safe.


Any comments appreciated ;)

[rulas41]

i think it goes only for new handguns one every 30 days used as many as your wallet can afford, i may be wrong

[jverham]

LA City has different rules, when you DROS even a used gun, LA City counts it as your 1 per 30. And yes, you are required to have a locking device bought in the past 30 days for each gun you DROS unless you have an approved safe at home in which case you can sign a waiver and don't need the locks.

[munkeeboi]

+1...LA City limits you to one handgun per 30 days whether it be obtained from the dealer or PPT. They also restrict compact handguns (forgot how they classify this)

everywhere I've gone no longer recognizes the safe affidavits. You either have to buy a lock or have to show them a receipt for a lock purchased within the last 30 days. Bringing in a lock itself will not work!

[glockman19]

Sounds like a few reues that currently violate our 2A. based on Heller & Nordyke.

Perhaps Gene or Bill will chime in and elaborate.

[fd15k]

I have provided the quote from the actual law. Could you tell me which sentence does say that two PPT within 30 day period are NO GO ? Also, talking about the locks, is your opinion based on the CA law, or Los Angeles city in particular (LA law, then which?) ?

+1...LA City limits you to one handgun per 30 days whether it be obtained from the dealer or PPT. They also restrict compact handguns (forgot how they classify this)

everywhere I've gone no longer recognizes the safe affidavits. You either have to buy a lock or have to show them a receipt for a lock purchased within the last 30 days. Bringing in a lock itself will not work!

[ke6guj]

hte question is, does LA consider every DROS, even PPT DROS, to be a "application to purchase"? If so, then it does appear that LA law would prohibit you from doing multiple PPTs or a PPT and a normal DROS within 30 days. (d) flat out states that you can't do a "application to purchase" and then do a PPT within 30-days.



As for the lock situation,

Here is the pertinent section of the law,

922(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.— (1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.
(2) Exceptions.— Paragraph (1) shall not apply to—
(A)
(i) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, of a handgun; or
(ii) the transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in clause (i) of a handgun for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty); or
(B) the transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer employed by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State of a handgun for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(C) the transfer to any person of a handgun listed as a curio or relic by the Secretary pursuant to section 921 (a)(13); or
(D) the transfer to any person of a handgun for which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in the exceptions stated in section 923 (e), if the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10 calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the transferee a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.OK, ignoring state law for a moment, it appears that C&R FFLs and LEOs (for LE-related handguns) are exempt from the federal handgun lock rule. And C&R handguns are exempt from the federal handgun lock rule for everyone. So, if you are exempt from the federal law, you then only have to comply with state law, and those exempted people and handguns could comply with state law with the Safe affidavit.

[fd15k]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up : 1 transfer per 30 days only if "application to purchase" is indeed any transfer; no locking device required if gun safe is owned...

I will shoot an e-mail to their operations manager to clarify that, although I doubt there will be any useful info.

[Sabot]

I was told that if you DROS a second handgun within the 30-day period the CA DOJ will catch it and cancel the second DROS.

[fd15k]

Well, Turner's Operations Manager replied to me, giving references to that LA city law I've cited above on 30 day limit, and to Federal Law on safety device requirements.
He admitted that there is an exemption for C&R items if "buyer" holds an FFL 03. I've sent him another e-mail asking to clarify "application to purchase", and asking whether I can
request a refund on that lock they sold me, because I happened to have an FFL 03 :43:

[fd15k]

There is no limit on PPT in California, this whole thread is about Los Angeles City supposedly having such limit.

I was told that if you DROS a second handgun within the 30-day period the CA DOJ will catch it and cancel the second DROS.

[fd15k]

Oh, and another thing... I found that under 922(z), there is an exception for C&R handguns :

(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—
(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.
(2) Exceptions.— Paragraph (1) shall not apply to—
(A)
(i) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, of a handgun; or
(ii) the transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in clause (i) of a handgun for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty); or
(B) the transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer employed by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State of a handgun for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(C) the transfer to any person of a handgun listed as a curio or relic by the Secretary pursuant to section 921 (a)(13); or
(D) the transfer to any person of a handgun for which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in the exceptions stated in section 923 (e), if the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10 calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the transferee a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.

[nick]

I suggest you just don't PPT handguns in the City of L.A. They do, indeed, have that law, where they count even PPTs for their 1 handgun in 30 days rule. It's not legal, since CA has state preemption, but legality never stopped our elected overlords. L.A.'s law hasn't been tested in court yet.

[ke6guj]

He admitted that there is an exemption for C&R items if "buyer" holds an FFL 03. I've sent him another e-mail asking to clarify "application to purchase", and asking whether I can
request a refund on that lock they sold me, because I happened to have an FFL 03 :43: close, the federal law says that it applies to C&R handguns but does not require you to have an 03 to use the C&R handgun exemption.

Oh, and another thing... I found that under 922(z), there is an exception for C&R handguns :

(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—
(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.
.

Per the high-lighted section, you should be exempt from the federal requirement of needing a lock for ANY handgun purchase, C&R or modern. 03FFLs are "persons licensed under this chapter".

[fd15k]

ke6guj,

Nice catch! So in any case, It's really now about clarifying this whole situation with their manager, and hopefully he will send a memo to all locations so that no other calgunner gets into this problem.

[ke6guj]

yup, that is the way the federal law reads, so if we comply with the exemptions of it, then we should be able to do a Safe Affidavit to comply with state law. I had that conversation with an FFL last week in another thread, but he never responded to my post.

Now, it is just a matter of getting the FFLs to use it. I know the next time I go to purchase a handgun, I will try to use the 03FFL + Safe Affidavit and see how it goes.

[jverham]

It sucks that LA City Limits has these stupid rules, we need someone with some money to go and sue them. (From the perspective of a poor UCLA student)

[fd15k]

Well, they told me right there that if I don't want LA restrictions to apply, I can just go to their other store and have it PPT'ed there ;) I'm positive even a poor UCLA student can afford a bus ticket to get him out of LA city :D

[jverham]

Well, they told me right there that if I don't want LA restrictions to apply, I can just go to their other store and have it PPT'ed there ;) I'm positive even a poor UCLA student can afford a bus ticket to get him out of LA city :D

Your right, I just PPT'd 3 handguns last week at once at Gun Gallery in Glendale. Just wish I didn't have to go as far, but believe me, I will go the extra distance if necessary.

[fd15k]

Alright folks. Turner's Operations Manager Bill Ortiz agreed that Reseda store should refund for the lock in this case, and passed the info to the store manager.
Although he didn't clarify which section of the law makes one exempt : exemption for licensees (FFL03) or exemption for C&R handguns.
In either case, they showed they're willing to work with us, and I give them +1 on that one.

[ke6guj]

thanks for the update.