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View Full Version : 10mm vs 45acp, 44mag, 9mm etc.?


supermario
06-25-2009, 5:09 PM
Sorry to ask this, but how does the 10mm compare to the 45acp and 9mm,
44mag 357mag etc. I am just curious as to why you guys call this the big boy? does anybody have a pic of the bullet next to another caliber for size comparison? Thanks guys.

Timberland
06-25-2009, 5:19 PM
9mm is not capable of scratching skin. 10mm can rip a hole in the space time continuioum. 45apc is nearly 100 years old so who cares. 44mag and .357 are for revolvers which are primitive, time to move on. Any questions?

M198
06-25-2009, 5:24 PM
Performance wise 45acp < 10mm < .44 mag. 9mm is good for volume, not much more. .44 mag only comes in revolvers and is a novelty round. If you are looking for a good HD gun, stick with 40, 45, or even 10mm if you are afraid a pack of linebackers might attack you.

goathead
06-25-2009, 5:30 PM
a full load 10mm is a strong round

THT
06-25-2009, 5:30 PM
Performance wise 45acp < 10mm < .44 mag. 9mm is good for volume, not much more. .44 mag only comes in revolvers and is a novelty round. If you are looking for a good HD gun, stick with 40, 45, or even 10mm if you are afraid a pack of linebackers might attack you.

Desert Eagle comes in .44mag...just sayin' ;)

Redhawker
06-25-2009, 5:33 PM
Desert Eagle comes in .44mag...just sayin' ;)

what he said....

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Eastside_Dave/DesertEagle4420004.jpg
:eek:

THT
06-25-2009, 5:37 PM
And here's the caliber comparison pic that the OP requested:

http://www.tophattheater.net/pics/guns/cartridges.jpg

From left to right: .50 BMG, 20 ga. 2.75", 7.62mm NATO, 5.56mm NATO, .50 AE, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, 9mm Luger, .32 ACP and .22 LR

*edit: crud, noticed it doesn't have .44mag or 10mm...

ZRT650
06-25-2009, 5:39 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

BlackDrop50
06-25-2009, 5:53 PM
LOL you guys got me crackin up

Greg-Dawg
06-25-2009, 5:56 PM
The .40S&W is it's little bro. .40 rules!!!

zcrehan
06-25-2009, 6:05 PM
Shot placement beats the heck out of bullet diameter and velocity.

Rough averages and generalizations follow below.

10mm: .40 bullet with a bit more heft and velocity, big and fast.
.45acp: Big and slow. JHP's expand to .75" 12"+ penetration.
9mm: Small and fast. JHP's expand to .66" 12"~ penetration.

My choice? 9mm. Low cost and "lighter" recoil allowing faster, more accurate follow up shots.

supermario
06-25-2009, 6:09 PM
9mm is not capable of scratching skin. 10mm can rip a hole in the space time continuioum. 45apc is nearly 100 years old so who cares. 44mag and .357 are for revolvers which are primitive, time to move on. Any questions?

thats funny, ;) like the way you put it.. Only I like the 9mm round becus it can penetrate vehicles like butter:D. Thats good for those thugs that like
to deliver drive bys! JK

wildhawker
06-25-2009, 6:10 PM
:popcorn::lurk5:

supermario
06-25-2009, 6:14 PM
:popcorn::lurk5:

:rofl:

MrEd
06-25-2009, 6:16 PM
To quote my israeli instructor : only hits count , if you miss then what does it matter what caliber you were shooting

Futurecollector
06-25-2009, 6:25 PM
To quote my israeli instructor : only hits count , if you miss then what does it matter what caliber you were shooting

but I can hit my target with a .45, 9mm. .357, .38, 9X18, .32, .22 .44 mag, .50AE, etc etc,

vf111
06-25-2009, 6:26 PM
The .40S&W is it's little bro. .40 rules!!!

Dude- your avatar looks just like someone that works for me except my employee is...............hotter.:eek:

I don't fish off my own docks but she shoots and have said she'd go w/ me to the range.....double :eek:

dfletcher
06-25-2009, 6:29 PM
A 10 mm is a 41 Magnum lite.

ro442173
06-25-2009, 6:30 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

That's hilarious.

FullMetalJacket
06-25-2009, 6:36 PM
I like to think of my Glock 20 (10mm) as a 15-shot .357 Magnum.

otteray
06-25-2009, 6:39 PM
A 10 mm is a 41 Magnum lite.

Mmmmm, .41 Mag is good, lite or heavy!

I like to think of my Glock 20 (10mm) as a 15-shot .357 Magnum.

I like to think of my S&W Model 57 and my Marlin 1894S Lever action carbine as my 17 rounds of .411" 240 gr. cast lead @ 1200 or 1600 fps black bear or trailside murderer protection, when in the forest.

Futurecollector
06-25-2009, 6:40 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

Either way, that would suck really really bad, to be shot with any of them, last time im not much thicker that a foot lol

M. Sage
06-25-2009, 6:44 PM
45apc is nearly 100 years old so who cares.

LOL, 9mm is older than .45 ACP by 3 years. Both are over 100 years old.

All asked about in the OP are good defensive rounds, but the .44 mag is probably a bit overpowered in a handgun.

Someone mentioned home defense. Home defense is not for handguns... That's what carbines and shotguns are for.

Ditch
06-25-2009, 6:50 PM
LOL, 9mm is older than .45 ACP by 3 years. Both are over 100 years old.

All asked about in the OP are good defensive rounds, but the .44 mag is probably a bit overpowered in a handgun.

Someone mentioned home defense. Home defense is not for handguns... That's what carbines and shotguns are for.

That's true! and the 10mm looks bad, but would love to see the 357 mag instead of the 357 sig....I have a felling it would be off the chart for some reason.:D

M198
06-25-2009, 7:38 PM
LOL, 9mm is older than .45 ACP by 3 years. Both are over 100 years old.

All asked about in the OP are good defensive rounds, but the .44 mag is probably a bit overpowered in a handgun.

Someone mentioned home defense. Home defense is not for handguns... That's what carbines and shotguns are for.

12 gauge is my first line of defense. My GF grabs the 1911 and the cell phone.

Juicymeat
06-25-2009, 8:00 PM
Original has no 10mm, tilt your head to the right and you'll see the 10mm is just a nuke photoshopped in.

dfletcher
06-25-2009, 8:56 PM
Mmmmm, .41 Mag is good, lite or heavy!

I like to think of my S&W Model 57 and my Marlin 1894S Lever action carbine as my 17 rounds of .411" 240 gr. cast lead @ 1200 or 1600 fps black bear or trailside murderer protection, when in the forest.

I spot a deficiency in your 41 Mag line up - no Ruger Super Blackhawk? I dropped off my scoped Hunter at City Arms last week, they haven't called to say someone plopped down the measly $$$ I was asking - you could fill the void for a pittance. :D

vandal
06-25-2009, 9:06 PM
It's a joke silly.

looks like photoshop can you post original link

Pistolwhipped
06-25-2009, 9:19 PM
Yeah I didn't know the 10mm came with a built in warhead that detonates after 8-10 inches!! Look at that FIREBALL!! No wonder the 10mm won, it blew the S*** outta the thing!:rolleyes::balloon:


looks like photoshop can you post original link

Texwanders
06-25-2009, 9:24 PM
ummm...no, not ripping the space time continuum, that is reserved for the .221 Fireball. :19:

And...no, not equal to the .41 magnum. It don't do 200 grain bullets at 1500 fps.

It will, however, do 155 grain bullets at 1300 fps, which is about all top .357 magnum loads will do. It will do them out of a 1911 pistol, with a 9 round mag, basically making it a 10 shot .357 magnum, in a reasonable sized carry pistol. That's cool :cool2:

SPROCKET
06-25-2009, 9:27 PM
.44 special... 'cause they only use the metric system in countries that don't let you own guns.:p

supermario
06-25-2009, 9:30 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

If you look at the pic sideways, its looks like something else:eek::D

Pistolwhipped
06-25-2009, 9:36 PM
LOL!:clap:

If you look at the pic sideways, its looks like something else:eek::D

sd_shooter
06-25-2009, 9:40 PM
Just read this report at the mother lode:
(ie. where the nuke pic was stolen from)

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm


Properly designed hollow-point ammunition - regardless of caliber - all perform very close to each other when you take expanded diameter and penetration depth into account.

Napalm Bulldog
06-25-2009, 10:08 PM
9MM Stats according to GLOCKWORLD.COM
1100fps
336ft/lbs


357SIG
1350fps
502ft/lbs

40S&W
1200fps
496 t/lbs

10MM
1290fps
649ft/lbs

45ACP
900fps
412ft/lbs

45GAP
950fps
401ft/lbs

.22LR
1,260ftp
134ft/lbs

22 Conv. Kit

wildhawker
06-25-2009, 10:42 PM
Dude- your avatar looks just like someone that works for me except my employee is...............hotter.:eek:

I don't fish off my own docks but she shoots and have said she'd go w/ me to the range.....double :eek:

:26::mnl::useless:

Napalm Bulldog
06-25-2009, 11:51 PM
There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies.Plus body armor doesnt stop it.

B Strong
06-26-2009, 5:06 AM
Performance wise 45acp < 10mm < .44 mag. 9mm is good for volume, not much more. .44 mag only comes in revolvers and is a novelty round. If you are looking for a good HD gun, stick with 40, 45, or even 10mm if you are afraid a pack of linebackers might attack you.

LOL!

I use self loaders for defensive carry, but I wouldn't feel naked with a model 29 and three speed loaders.

CD MCKINNEY
06-26-2009, 5:17 AM
10MM is the one
Double Tap 200 gr. XTP/JHP [1290/705]
26476

JTROKS
06-26-2009, 6:54 AM
There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies.Plus body armor doesnt stop it.

357 Sig has a little more power than the 38 Super +p and if you look really close to 357 magnum ballistics fired from a 4" or less barrel they are very close to 357 Sig. The 357 magnum shines when heavy bullets are used in which there are none commercially available for the 357 Sig. Having 10 rounds of 357 Magnum plus a quick reload is something else, but the 10mm has it beat paper ballistic wise.

SCMA-1
06-26-2009, 7:07 AM
And here's the caliber comparison pic that the OP requested:

http://www.tophattheater.net/pics/guns/cartridges.jpg

From left to right: .50 BMG, 20 ga. 2.75", 7.62mm NATO, 5.56mm NATO, .50 AE, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, 9mm Luger, .32 ACP and .22 LR

*edit: crud, noticed it doesn't have .44mag or 10mm...

More caliber comparison (left to right): 30mm, 25mm, 20mm, .50 BMG, .375 H&H Magnum, 30-06, .308 Win, .223 Rem.

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww140/webbiz1/IMG_1173.jpg

vf111
06-26-2009, 7:38 PM
Glock 20 + 15 rounds Double Tap ammo = enough tears in Space Time Continuum to make William Shatner not a caricature of himself.

nrakid88
06-27-2009, 3:49 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

This is cool but the original it came from doesn't even have a 10mm shown. The entire 10mm part was photoshoped. It would be interesting to actually see a full power 10mm load tested in ballistic gelatin next to other loads like 9mm and 45 acp.

socomIInato
06-27-2009, 8:55 PM
This is cool but the original it came from doesn't even have a 10mm shown. The entire 10mm part was photoshoped. It would be interesting to actually see a full power 10mm load tested in ballistic gelatin next to other loads like 9mm and 45 acp.

that 10mm is one of those explosive bullets we keep hearing about:Dnuclear that is.

NeoWeird
06-28-2009, 2:04 AM
What you also have to remember is that the 10mm was initially designed at a specific bullet weight & velocity. It was WAY too powerful for the FBI, who were the original contract holders of handguns first chambered in it, so ammunition manufacturers dumbed it down. It was still too powerful, so S&W shortened the case, essentially making a 10mm short, and the .40S&W was born. 95% of most ammunition loaders still load 10mm at the lower 'FBI' loadings instead of their intended loadings.

If properly loaded, the 10mm shoots farther and flatter than the 9mm, has more energy, expansion, and penetration than a .45, and can easily punch through personal ballistic armor. Only problem is that it's VERY possible to shoot through targets and be insanely lethal behind them. Bottom line is Jeff Copper and the others KNEW what they were doing and they created one of the best commercial handgun rounds to date and it's only short comming was that it was TOO powerful. If collateral damage is not a problem, it's arguably the best round around right now, considering options, accessories, platforms, etc.

For that reason though, it's intended and especially hot loadings should be avoided for the average person and it shouldn't be used as a home defense round where family members, neighbors, etc could pose a risk for over penetration.

loather
06-28-2009, 7:48 AM
Truthfully though, you can think of 10mm as a sort of .40 S&W Magnum. With the exception of case length, the measurements for 10mm and .40 S&W are nearly indistinguishable. That being said, it lands somewhere between .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum in terms of power. Standard loads are slightly faster than .357 Magnum, while the larger, heavier projectile has between 100 and 200 lbs/ft more power behind it. Conversely, it's about the same speed as a .44 Magnum, but with considerably less power (standard .44 Magnum loads range from one-and-a-half times as much power to over twice as powerful).

BTW: the graphic above is *awesome* :)

THT
06-28-2009, 11:14 AM
This thread is making me want a G20...

ChrisDM
06-28-2009, 12:13 PM
Man, there are a few laughs here. Most notably the guy who said the 44 mag was a "novelty cartridge"?! I assume you're kidding... If not I'd like for you to meet my Redhawk loaded with a 340gr Garrett ++P with 1700ftlbs of energy out of a 5 inch barrel!... I would get the last laugh :)

But seriously the only correct answer, as with just about every technical discussion, is "it depends". Each cartridge is particularly suited to its intended target/use, and the smart shooter simply matches his need to the right cartridge. For example, I pack that 44mag with the Buffalo Bore ++P rounds when backpacking through brown bear country, as the round is rated "for game up to 2000 lbs". I pack my custom 10mm Glock for lighter 4 legged creatures, like black bear etc, where I can enjoy the lighter weight of the Glock while backpacking. But I would never have the 10mm beside my bed for home protection as it would/could overpenetrate walls, endangering my family and possibly even my neighbors. For that my 40s&w is ideal... And my little 380 is the perfect "deep conceal" weapon for close quarter urban protection. The tiny 380 is quite capable at the very short ranges for which it is intended.

I just assembled and photographed this lineup for this thread, in approximate order of stopping power:

http://imagineimagery.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p721895196.jpg

(380, 9mm, 9mm +p, 40s&w, 45acp, 45acp +p (Federal HST), 10mm (Doubletap 200gr Hardcast flatnose awesome), 460 Rowland, 44 special, 45 Long Colt, 44mag, 44 mag ++P (340gr Buffalo Bore 1700 ftlbs!), 6.8spc, 308 Win)

Hope this helps,

Chris

aplinker
06-28-2009, 1:57 PM
There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies.Plus body armor doesnt stop it.

lol

oh my

the wackness is strong in this thread. I'm keeping out because it's fun to read this stuff.

dexter9659
06-28-2009, 5:31 PM
ummm...no, not ripping the space time continuum, that is reserved for the .221 Fireball. :19:

And...no, not equal to the .41 magnum. It don't do 200 grain bullets at 1500 fps.

It will, however, do 155 grain bullets at 1300 fps, which is about all top .357 magnum loads will do. It will do them out of a 1911 pistol, with a 9 round mag, basically making it a 10 shot .357 magnum, in a reasonable sized carry pistol. That's cool :cool2:

10mm will do a 180g fmj bullet at 1450 fps out of a fitted 6" barrel which yields 840ft/lbs of energy (my handloads. As I recall 10gr of Power Pistol, which I DO NOT RECOMMEND! As it can be VERY dangerous if you do not know exactly what you are doing).

dwtt
06-28-2009, 6:24 PM
This thread is making me want a G20...

You can also get a Kimber in 10mm. Go ahead, indulge once in life.

MiguelS
06-28-2009, 6:37 PM
Where would the 357 Sig land in this image?


I just assembled and photographed this lineup for this thread, in approximate order of stopping power:

http://nitekrazze.com/ammo-range.jpg

(380, 9mm, 9mm +p, 40s&w, 45acp, 45acp +p (Federal HST), 10mm (Doubletap 200gr Hardcast flatnose awesome), 460 Rowland, 44 special, 45 Long Colt, 44mag, 44 mag ++P (340gr Buffalo Bore 1700 ftlbs!), 6.8spc, 308 Win)

Hope this helps,

Chris

THT
06-28-2009, 7:25 PM
You can also get a Kimber in 10mm. Go ahead, indulge once in life.

Thinking about a Dan Wesson Valor for a 1911...so many guns on the wish list, so little money...

ChrisDM
06-29-2009, 4:53 AM
Where would the 357 Sig land in this image?

In terms of muzzle energy it would fall between the 40 and the 45acp+p. But it gets there with a lighter bullet at faster velocities so it will have different penetration/stopping characteristics. Once again it simply comes down to understanding your target and matching the appropriate ammo to suit.

Chris

Army GI
06-29-2009, 8:24 AM
I really like the 7.62x25 Tokarev, I just wish it was chambered in better high capacity polymer guns like a nice Glock.

M198
06-29-2009, 10:35 AM
Man, there are a few laughs here. Most notably the guy who said the 44 mag was a "novelty cartridge"?! I assume you're kidding... If not I'd like for you to meet my Redhawk loaded with a 340gr Garrett ++P with 1700ftlbs of energy out of a 5 inch barrel!... I would get the last laugh :)

44 mag is a very powerful round, but so is a 50AE. Both are novelty rounds that are popular because of their size and their "compensation factor" ;) . Both rounds are great for showing to girls but unless your hunting grizzly, they are both novelty rounds. You might as well be this guy.

http://www.ericbeckinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/joker.jpg

elSquid
06-29-2009, 11:34 AM
44 mag is a very powerful round, but so is a 50AE. Both are novelty rounds that are popular because of their size and their "compensation factor" ;) . Both rounds are great for showing to girls but unless your hunting grizzly, they are both novelty rounds.

A good 44 Magnum revolver is quite a flexible handgun. It may not be the best choice for CCW, but you can do a lot with one. Handloads allow the shooter to explore the spectrum from mild plinking loads to full-house magnums.

Heck, grab some factory 44 special JHP loads and you can use it as a house gun.

-- Michael

ChrisDM
06-29-2009, 1:54 PM
44 mag is a very powerful round, but so is a 50AE. Both are novelty rounds that are popular because of their size and their "compensation factor" ;) . Both rounds are great for showing to girls but unless your hunting grizzly, they are both novelty rounds. You might as well be this guy.


Ah, I see the problem now, you simply lack perspective... A 44 mag may be a "novelty round" to you, but for those of us that spend time in the wild a 45acp would be considered a "novelty" round :) Simply a matter of perspective (or lack thereof).

That being said, there's probably not a more versatile chambering than the 44 mag. With one gun you can shoot everything from 44 special plinkers and home defense loads to big game hunters or grizzly defenders. I can't think of any other "novelty round" that can do this.

Chris

M198
06-29-2009, 11:22 PM
Ah, I see the problem now, you simply lack perspective... A 44 mag may be a "novelty round" to you, but for those of us that spend time in the wild a 45acp would be considered a "novelty" round :) (there are a lot of dead Nazi's who would disagree about the popularity and effectiveness of the 45acp. I'm willing to bet my life that a 45acp will get the job done everytime.) Simply a matter of perspective (or lack thereof).

That being said, there's probably not a more versatile chambering than the 44 mag. With one gun you can shoot everything from 44 special plinkers and home defense loads to big game hunters or grizzly defenders. I can't think of any other "novelty round" that can do this. (I think that just about every round starting at 357 and going up could be hand loaded for plinking to serious man stoppers. even a well placed 40 black talon HP would be able to kill just about anything that breathes and doesn't have a horn on it's nose.)

Chris

I remain unconvinced. Don't take it personally. I wouldn't mind having a 44 mag so I could play dirty Harry in front of a mirror. BTW, I'm from NC and had to watch my scout master scare off a black bear with a 1911 when I was a kid. I'm sure it would have gotten the job done if needed.

FCinCA
06-30-2009, 12:03 AM
There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies.Plus body armor doesnt stop it.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/528198/joint.jpg

M198
06-30-2009, 8:25 AM
I call BS. if you think that a 45acp won't penetrate a car door or even the cab of rig, just go to youtube. There are way to many variables to consider there even if it was "a documented case". shot palcement in regards to angle, distance, frame pillars, car seat, etc. Even a 9mm will go trough the average car door.

cineski
06-30-2009, 8:31 AM
Yes, a 9 will go through a car door. But it's what happens after that that's important. I don't remember the site and hopefully someone has it, but there was a group that did a test of common LEO ammo on cars. Shot through doors, windshields, etc. The larger the bullet, the better simply because there's still enough momentum after the bullet goes through the barrier, despite losing some mass, to do damage to an occupant inside. IIRC, .45 was one of the better performers of this test due to it's much larger mass. Hopefully someone has a link.

ChrisDM
06-30-2009, 8:58 AM
I remain unconvinced. Don't take it personally. I wouldn't mind having a 44 mag so I could play dirty Harry in front of a mirror. BTW, I'm from NC and had to watch my scout master scare off a black bear with a 1911 when I was a kid. I'm sure it would have gotten the job done if needed.

Not trying to convince you, just pointing out its a matter of perspective. If you're out in grizzly country a 44 mag would be the least "novel" items you could pack (especially compared to most other pistol/revolver cartridges).

Chris

nrakid88
06-30-2009, 9:00 AM
I love handgun threads. SO SO SO many contradictory claims. Its brilliant.

lazuris
06-30-2009, 9:11 AM
10mm is awesome however the down side is that there are few makes and models availible. Some older colts, 1 kimber, 2 glocks, a dan wessen i believe and maybe a few others. If there were more makes and models availible i'd be down for one but since the pool of choices is shallow.

M198
06-30-2009, 9:11 AM
I love handgun threads. SO SO SO many contradictory claims. Its brilliant.

But its fun isn't it?

brokestudent12
06-30-2009, 9:25 AM
But its fun isn't it?

Hell yes!

Midian
06-30-2009, 9:32 AM
That informative photo essay on the ungodly nuclear power of 10MM have lit a fire in my squamous reptilian brain.

I may have to preempt my next .45 purchase and grab a 10mm 1911.


Oh yes.

I went there.

Midian
06-30-2009, 9:34 AM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/528198/joint.jpg

Okay. THAT'S funny.

Californio
06-30-2009, 9:46 AM
I find the 44 magnum a very versatile cartridge. Prior to the lead ban I was able to roll my own fine tuned cartridges for boar hunting that hit hard and gave quick followup shots. Hand gun hunting in the 50 yard or less range allowed longer hunts (reduced weight), allowed for lots of tracking (reduced weight) and was just plain more fun than dragging a rifle around. 44 magnum would be the minimum caliber I would want in a SA or DA revolver and I do not consider an auto pistols appropriate for hunting, a 300lb boar can mess you up good, Murphy is always working on a stovepipe.

st.clouds
06-30-2009, 10:19 AM
Yes, a 9 will go through a car door. But it's what happens after that that's important. I don't remember the site and hopefully someone has it, but there was a group that did a test of common LEO ammo on cars. Shot through doors, windshields, etc. The larger the bullet, the better simply because there's still enough momentum after the bullet goes through the barrier, despite losing some mass, to do damage to an occupant inside. IIRC, .45 was one of the better performers of this test due to it's much larger mass. Hopefully someone has a link.

I'm sorry what has momentum got to do with it? Please explain, because I'd like to understand how that has anything to do with a bullet lethality? I hope you aren't just throwing this word around coz it sounds cool.

Momentum is only destructive to the opposing object if and only if the other object has equal or lighter mass. (Reasoning: change of momentum is force, force is what kills, and the heavier object always has the least change in momentum). Momentum is not effective when the other object is much heavier, especially in an inellastic collision, that's where 1 of the 2 bodies involved are deformed. Look at it this way, what would happen when a VW Beetle hits a trailer at full speed? The beetle would be squashed, and the trailer would be largely unscatched. Because the trailer is more massive, the trailer wins, even when the trailer is stationary, hence momentum is 0, null, nada, zip. If a trailer hits the beetle, the beetle is squashed, and the trailer will be fine. In an inellastic (or any kind of) collision, the victor is always the more massive, not the one with more momentum.

Similarly, a human is hundred of times more massive than the bullet. In either the 9mm and the .45acp the ratio in mass between the bullet and the human target is even more striking than that of a beetle and the trailer. What makes you think that one will do the job when the other doesn't?

Penetration is largely dependant in force per square inch, (the localized force) or pressure, not momentum. In this case the 9mm has the .45 acp beats. The 9mm will always penetrate more than the .45 acp. Did you see the 9mm 147 gr Hollow Point HST test? It penetrates the ballistic gellatin to a depth of 16", which .45 acp is capable of doing that, again? Or the old US army helmet test, the 9mm ball ammo is capable of penetrating the steel helmet at about 2-3x distance where the .45 acp has stopped being effective. Of course pressure is not the only issue, there's such thing as too much speed that may cause: fragmentation (poor penetration, energy is dissipated into the air), turbulance (poor penetration, energy is dissipated doing the oscillating motion) and so on that may cause that force to be less effective than on paper.

Btw pressure is also why a 3A Bullet Proof vest will fail to protect against knife attack. The force in a knife is so focused on a much smaller surface area, hence higher pressure, that the knife will just slice through the vest like butter, when the same vest can easily foil a 9mm or .45 acp round.

The .45 acp is a man stopper, but it's not a penetrator that the 9mm is. Just like the FBI test, (1) of those that'll penetrate, (2) bigger bullet will cause more damage. When the .45 acp will penetrate, it'll cause bigger wound channel on an unprotected target, however, when the target is behind a barrier the 9mm has a better chance at penetrating than the .45 acp.

Sheepdog1968
06-30-2009, 12:36 PM
If you want a revolver I'd go with the new S&W 357 mag as it holds eight rounds. If you want a semi auto I'd go with a 45 ACP. Based on data I've seen, it's a good man stopping round (40 is comparable). 9 mm isn't a good manstopper relative to the other two. The 10 mm better than 45 ACP but ammo is more costly and rare. Both of these likley lead to less practice. I'd go with a 45 ACP of the choices listed. Anything but the 9 mm would get the job done though.

Army GI
06-30-2009, 1:59 PM
I'm sorry what has momentum got to do with it? Please explain, because I'd like to understand how that has anything to do with a bullet lethality? I hope you aren't just throwing this word around coz it sounds cool.

Momentum is only destructive to the opposing object if and only if the other object has equal or lighter mass. (Reasoning: change of momentum is force, force is what kills, and the heavier object always has the least change in momentum). Momentum is not effective when the other object is much heavier, especially in an inellastic collision, that's where 1 of the 2 bodies involved are deformed. Look at it this way, what would happen when a VW Beetle hits a trailer at full speed? The beetle would be squashed, and the trailer would be largely unscatched. Because the trailer is more massive, the trailer wins, even when the trailer is stationary, hence momentum is 0, null, nada, zip. If a trailer hits the beetle, the beetle is squashed, and the trailer will be fine. In an inellastic (or any kind of) collision, the victor is always the more massive, not the one with more momentum.

Similarly, a human is hundred of times more massive than the bullet. In either the 9mm and the .45acp the ratio in mass between the bullet and the human target is even more striking than that of a beetle and the trailer. What makes you think that one will do the job when the other doesn't?

Penetration is largely dependant in force per square inch, (the localized force) or pressure, not momentum. In this case the 9mm has the .45 acp beats. The 9mm will always penetrate more than the .45 acp. Did you see the 9mm 147 gr Hollow Point HST test? It penetrates the ballistic gellatin to a depth of 16", which .45 acp is capable of doing that, again? Or the old US army helmet test, the 9mm ball ammo is capable of penetrating the steel helmet at about 2-3x distance where the .45 acp has stopped being effective. Of course pressure is not the only issue, there's such thing as too much speed that may cause: fragmentation (poor penetration, energy is dissipated into the air), turbulance (poor penetration, energy is dissipated doing the oscillating motion) and so on that may cause that force to be less effective than on paper.

Btw pressure is also why a 3A Bullet Proof vest will fail to protect against knife attack. The force in a knife is so focused on a much smaller surface area, hence higher pressure, that the knife will just slice through the vest like butter, when the same vest can easily foil a 9mm or .45 acp round.

The .45 acp is a man stopper, but it's not a penetrator that the 9mm is. Just like the FBI test, (1) of those that'll penetrate, (2) bigger bullet will cause more damage. When the .45 acp will penetrate, it'll cause bigger wound channel on an unprotected target, however, when the target is behind a barrier the 9mm has a better chance at penetrating than the .45 acp.

Boom. Quoted for emphasis.

BamBam-31
06-30-2009, 2:55 PM
All I know is, I'm sure glad I bought that KKM 10mm conversion barrel for my G21sf. 10mm is SEEEEEX-AAAAY!!

Black Majik
06-30-2009, 2:57 PM
All I know is, I'm sure glad I bought that KKM 10mm conversion barrel for my G21sf. 10mm is SEEEEEX-AAAAY!!

.:D

cineski
06-30-2009, 4:07 PM
Not throwing words around, but I don't have time to go searching for the article I saw, sorry. I'll try after my meeting tonight and before I head up to the Sierra's tomorrow ;-). I remember the car test finding out that lighter weight bullets shed more of a percentage of mass than a heavier bullet. Even if a .45 loses half its weight, it's still the size of a 9mm. Yes, you are correct that 9mm is a better penetrator than a .45, but if the two are going to lose half their weight (that number I'm pulling out of my arse) I'd much rather shoot with a .45 than a 9mm. That's all I was saying. From what I recall, no bullet had any issues going through a car. But there were issues with weight retention.

I'm sorry what has momentum got to do with it? Please explain, because I'd like to understand how that has anything to do with a bullet lethality? I hope you aren't just throwing this word around coz it sounds cool.

Momentum is only destructive to the opposing object if and only if the other object has equal or lighter mass. (Reasoning: change of momentum is force, force is what kills, and the heavier object always has the least change in momentum). Momentum is not effective when the other object is much heavier, especially in an inellastic collision, that's where 1 of the 2 bodies involved are deformed. Look at it this way, what would happen when a VW Beetle hits a trailer at full speed? The beetle would be squashed, and the trailer would be largely unscatched. Because the trailer is more massive, the trailer wins, even when the trailer is stationary, hence momentum is 0, null, nada, zip. If a trailer hits the beetle, the beetle is squashed, and the trailer will be fine. In an inellastic (or any kind of) collision, the victor is always the more massive, not the one with more momentum.

Similarly, a human is hundred of times more massive than the bullet. In either the 9mm and the .45acp the ratio in mass between the bullet and the human target is even more striking than that of a beetle and the trailer. What makes you think that one will do the job when the other doesn't?

Penetration is largely dependant in force per square inch, (the localized force) or pressure, not momentum. In this case the 9mm has the .45 acp beats. The 9mm will always penetrate more than the .45 acp. Did you see the 9mm 147 gr Hollow Point HST test? It penetrates the ballistic gellatin to a depth of 16", which .45 acp is capable of doing that, again? Or the old US army helmet test, the 9mm ball ammo is capable of penetrating the steel helmet at about 2-3x distance where the .45 acp has stopped being effective. Of course pressure is not the only issue, there's such thing as too much speed that may cause: fragmentation (poor penetration, energy is dissipated into the air), turbulance (poor penetration, energy is dissipated doing the oscillating motion) and so on that may cause that force to be less effective than on paper.

Btw pressure is also why a 3A Bullet Proof vest will fail to protect against knife attack. The force in a knife is so focused on a much smaller surface area, hence higher pressure, that the knife will just slice through the vest like butter, when the same vest can easily foil a 9mm or .45 acp round.

The .45 acp is a man stopper, but it's not a penetrator that the 9mm is. Just like the FBI test, (1) of those that'll penetrate, (2) bigger bullet will cause more damage. When the .45 acp will penetrate, it'll cause bigger wound channel on an unprotected target, however, when the target is behind a barrier the 9mm has a better chance at penetrating than the .45 acp.

oghl888
07-01-2009, 12:53 PM
handgun cartridges are all weak in general. Trying to claim that the 10mm is the big boy and the 9mm is a sissy is pointless. Both will do their job if used effectively and accurately. Spend your time/money/energy getting good with whatever you choose, for get about 10mm vs. 9mm vs. 40 short and weak vs 357, etc.

ChrisDM
07-01-2009, 6:57 PM
handgun cartridges are all weak in general. Trying to claim that the 10mm is the big boy and the 9mm is a sissy is pointless. Both will do their job if used effectively and accurately. Spend your time/money/energy getting good with whatever you choose, for get about 10mm vs. 9mm vs. 40 short and weak vs 357, etc.

Well said.

CD MCKINNEY
07-02-2009, 4:53 AM
10MM is the best and most versatile cartridge that gives you the choices of minimum to maximum [controllable] power in a concealable semi-auto for self defense AND hunting/animal defense. All calibers have their applications, but I don't see any other round that matches the 10MM in range of applications.

.45 Super and .400 Corbon have similar ballistics BUT require modification of an existing weapon, ammo is harder to find and more expensive [and] DO fall in to the category of "Novelty" cartridges, while [also] not being as versatile as the 10MM [and not any better].

I like carrying POWER and I appreciate versatility; my DW 5" 1911, tuned with a 20# recoil spring, 28# mainspring and an EGW flat firing pin stop plate fires with the same recoil as a .45 acp +P [only smoother], has minimal [and vertical] muzzle rise and is "miles" more accurate, reliable and powerful than a .45 acp.
[loaded with Double Tap 10MM 200gr. XTP/JHP's 1290/705]

26953

Army GI
07-02-2009, 4:48 PM
Sure the 10mm is more powerful, but how much power do you need? The US military is apparently satisfied with the 5.56 and 9mm enough that they have used them for 40 and 20 years respectively. Even though they previously had more powerful cartridges for their rifles and handguns. More ammo capacity and low recoil is the name of the game for effectiveness. Don't forget the 45 ACP is a little too much for lots of folks to handle, too.

Don't get me wrong, the 10mm is a great cartridge. But I prefer less recoil for faster follow up shots.

kalguns
07-18-2009, 5:27 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

Could not agree more

Ditch
07-18-2009, 7:04 PM
Could not agree more

Don't believe everything you see! or hear for that matter:sleeping:

mblat
07-18-2009, 7:25 PM
The whole thing is funny. Look at the that picture. All common rounds are about the same. Done deal.
Capacity is where it is at. And among them 9mm has most of it.

Of cause it doesn't apply to new purchases in California....... Since we stuck with 10 rounders .45 it is...... But everywhere else - 9mm.

Mauser87
07-18-2009, 7:33 PM
http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/vryates/Ammo1.jpg

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/vryates/Ammo2.jpg

a 9mm 40 s&w and a 10mm round

saki302
07-19-2009, 1:49 PM
I don't know if it's just me, but a 10mm Glock 20 seems to shoot more easily than the .40 Glock 23.. just feels like it kicks less and is more pleasant to shoot.

-Dave

FeuerFrei
07-19-2009, 4:43 PM
Nice pics in the replies.
Hmmm...IMHO;
44Mag = Kills really big mean dogs and wild pigs very well.
45ACP = Man stopper with history behind it to prove my point.
40 = For people that can't handle recoil of 45ACP.
9mm = Works for everybody with more attention paid to what you feed it.
*Choose your hollow point carefully and go +P for personal defense.

jaymz
07-19-2009, 4:48 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

'Nuff said!

xibunkrlilkidsx
07-19-2009, 4:57 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

ive seen that probably a dozen times. but never notcied the mushroom cloud on the 10mm.

Vin496
07-19-2009, 5:05 PM
Nice pics in the replies.
Hmmm...IMHO;
44Mag = Kills really big mean dogs and wild pigs very well.
45ACP = Man stopper with history behind it to prove my point.
40 = For people that can't handle recoil of 45ACP.
9mm = Works for everybody with more attention paid to what you feed it.
*Choose your hollow point carefully and go +P for personal defense.

I know many who think the .40 is way snappier of a gun to shoot than a .45.

BHPFan
07-20-2009, 12:33 PM
40 = For people that can't handle recoil of 45ACP.


I don't know about that as I felt that the .40 recoils more than the .45 ACP. I guess it must be that the .40 has more muzzle flip.

BHPFan
07-20-2009, 12:44 PM
It should be like this:

Nice pics in the replies.
Hmmm...IMHO;
44Mag = Kills really big mean dogs and wild pigs very well.
45ACP = Man stopper with history behind it to prove my point.
40 = For smaller hands that can't grip 45ACP pistols.
9mm = Works for everybody with more attention paid to what you feed it.
*Choose your hollow point carefully and go +P for personal defense.

That is one of the main reasons for the .40 SW: Wanting more knockdown power on pistols same size as 9mm.

saki302
07-21-2009, 1:36 AM
I find .40 more unpleasant than .45.

.45 has a smooth but longer push, while .40 has an abrupt snap.. Kind of like a 9mm +P+ but a bit worse. I find the snap uncomfortable (no way to get around that, shot of wearing a glove), while guns that push can be easily handled if you have string wrists. Example- any of the scandium guns are much more unpleasant IMO than the .500 series.

-Dave

ChrisDM
07-21-2009, 10:26 AM
I don't know about that as I felt that the .40 recoils more than the .45 ACP. I guess it must be that the .40 has more muzzle flip.

This isn't about the caliber as much as it is the weapon. You can get 40 cartidges with more muzzle energy than most 45's, and vice versa. The differentiating factor in felt recoil will however vary greatly depending on the weight, barel length, comfort of grip, etc of the firearm, whether it is a 40 or 45.

afry116
08-30-2009, 10:01 PM
Performance wise 45acp < 10mm < .44 mag. 9mm is good for volume, not much more. .44 mag only comes in revolvers and is a novelty round. If you are looking for a good HD gun, stick with 40, 45, or even 10mm if you are afraid a pack of linebackers might attack you.

Don't forget about the Desert Eagle .44 mag semi auto pistol.

Look Wat I kAn DO !
08-30-2009, 10:23 PM
This thread is making me want a G20...

:D me 2

The Tech-1
08-30-2009, 10:25 PM
Nice pics in the replies.
Hmmm...IMHO;
44Mag = Kills really big mean dogs and wild pigs very well.
45ACP = Man stopper with history behind it to prove my point.
40 = For people that can't handle recoil of 45ACP.
9mm = Works for everybody with more attention paid to what you feed it.
*Choose your hollow point carefully and go +P for personal defense.

Holy mother of FUD, don't ever post these things again. Unless you were trying to be funny.

stix213
08-31-2009, 2:04 PM
Everyone here seems to be arguing over penetration and overall effectiveness of each round, but is forgetting cost.

At $9.95 for a box of 50 FMJ 9mm, the 9mm is the round where you buy the gun but don't just keep it in the safe after a few months once you realize how much money you are spending dumping 150 rounds every weekend out of that thing. Compare that to around $25 or so for a box of 50 for .45 ACP and 10mm or $18 for a box of 20 .44 magnum, and I'm betting these guns aren't fired nearly as often. Plus the 10mm is hard stuff to find at all.

At $0.50 for the cheap .45 ACP stuff, I can certainly see why so many 1911's are showing up in the private party sales section lately. Most people are forced by their budgets to shoot less or not at all when a 9mm can be shot all the time - hence the 9mm is arguably the most enjoyable pistol round available cause you can shoot it all the time guilt free, and your wife won't even get pissed that you spent all her Macy's money, yet again. :) And when your wife gets pissed about your hobby, that's when you can be forced into some tough decisions... Do you really want to put your hobby in between your wife and her 30th pair of shoes that she insists she needs but you have no idea why the other 29 won't do???

Unfortunately, stupid gang bangers kill each other all the time shooting their 9mm's sideways out of their car windows, so sadly I'd say that is a real world endorsement of the round's effectiveness.

So when you consider price, I'd say the 9mm gets top marks for weekend shooting fun, assuming you aren't trying to stop bears or anything along those lines. With the .40 S&W coming up in a close 2nd at around $14 for a box of 50 of the cheap stuff, and if you like the bigger boom than the 9mm go with the .40 S&W.

Who here really dumps 150 rounds out of their .44 mag every weekend? Or either the 10mm or.45 ACP??? I'm willing to bet all these guns get to sit in the safe far longer in between use than people who love their 9's... And a gun at the range is 10x better than one in the safe.

So yeah, I'll take my 9mm Glock over some of the larger, arguably more effective calibers. The 9mm can still stop you dead in your tracks if it came to that (worst case the 9mm is the greatest for a follow up shot too due to fast recovery), plus I'll have plenty of more practice since your .44 mag, 10mm, or .45 ACP has been sitting in your safe this whole time while your skills are getting rusty.

I believe there is a whole lot to say for having more practice. my 2 cents

(yeah this is an over generalization, and some of you here spend $300 a weekend on ammo, but for the majority what I just said is absolutely correct)

bombadillo
08-31-2009, 2:17 PM
Oh this thread brings the funny all day long!!! :D:biggrinjester::jump:


On a wee bit more serious note (not much though) the last time I had a 10mm encounter was this little round man who just didn't have enough time in the day to put enough lead down range and every time he took his target down from 25 feet he'd sit and wait until somebody got back to meet them with their target. I was dinking around with my .45 and he said "Hey, let me see one of those rounds" so I obliged and put down a .45acp 230gr ball round on the table. He pulled out a 10mm round and said "This is why I shoot a ten" and smirked as he slapped down a big ol 10mm round next to mine trying to dwarf it. I just laughed and said "Yeah, but look at your target" His guy had missing limbs, 9 ring shots and just generally a really terrible looking target. I was able to nicely group 4 mags worth of head shots and 9 and 10 ring center mass shots at the same distance and he shut his stupid pie hole. I'm not even a very good shot with a handgun in reality but I think he lost his man card for a while that day.

Anchors
08-05-2010, 11:06 PM
Everyone here seems to be arguing over penetration and overall effectiveness of each round, but is forgetting cost.

At $9.95 for a box of 50 FMJ 9mm, the 9mm is the round where you buy the gun but don't just keep it in the safe after a few months once you realize how much money you are spending dumping 150 rounds every weekend out of that thing. Compare that to around $25 or so for a box of 50 for .45 ACP and 10mm or $18 for a box of 20 .44 magnum, and I'm betting these guns aren't fired nearly as often. Plus the 10mm is hard stuff to find at all.

At $0.50 for the cheap .45 ACP stuff, I can certainly see why so many 1911's are showing up in the private party sales section lately. Most people are forced by their budgets to shoot less or not at all when a 9mm can be shot all the time - hence the 9mm is arguably the most enjoyable pistol round available cause you can shoot it all the time guilt free, and your wife won't even get pissed that you spent all her Macy's money, yet again. :) And when your wife gets pissed about your hobby, that's when you can be forced into some tough decisions... Do you really want to put your hobby in between your wife and her 30th pair of shoes that she insists she needs but you have no idea why the other 29 won't do???

Unfortunately, stupid gang bangers kill each other all the time shooting their 9mm's sideways out of their car windows, so sadly I'd say that is a real world endorsement of the round's effectiveness.

So when you consider price, I'd say the 9mm gets top marks for weekend shooting fun, assuming you aren't trying to stop bears or anything along those lines. With the .40 S&W coming up in a close 2nd at around $14 for a box of 50 of the cheap stuff, and if you like the bigger boom than the 9mm go with the .40 S&W.

Who here really dumps 150 rounds out of their .44 mag every weekend? Or either the 10mm or.45 ACP??? I'm willing to bet all these guns get to sit in the safe far longer in between use than people who love their 9's... And a gun at the range is 10x better than one in the safe.

So yeah, I'll take my 9mm Glock over some of the larger, arguably more effective calibers. The 9mm can still stop you dead in your tracks if it came to that (worst case the 9mm is the greatest for a follow up shot too due to fast recovery), plus I'll have plenty of more practice since your .44 mag, 10mm, or .45 ACP has been sitting in your safe this whole time while your skills are getting rusty.

I believe there is a whole lot to say for having more practice. my 2 cents

(yeah this is an over generalization, and some of you here spend $300 a weekend on ammo, but for the majority what I just said is absolutely correct)

I like all the calibers, I just like shooting.
But I like 9mm because I can afford to shoot 1-2 a week.
I'd rather have a lot more practice with my 9mm than half as much with the other calibers.
At $10 a box 9mm still isn't that cheap, but it's the cheapest realistic round. (not .22lr or 7.62x25)

KillZone45
08-05-2010, 11:11 PM
The .40S&W is it's little bro. .40 rules!!!

It's pronounced "fo tay" mkthx

KillZone45
08-05-2010, 11:15 PM
This thread is making me want a G20...

My next gun fo sho!!!

Cyc Wid It
08-05-2010, 11:27 PM
Seals use 9mm
Secret Service uses .357 Sig
Israeli assassins use .22lr
LAPD Swat uses .45 ACP

find whichever one your inner tacticool mall ninja connects with and be happy

lazs
08-05-2010, 11:32 PM
44 mag is not for everyone.. it is not for nothing that guides and people in the know about killing tough animals carry em tho even if it does make girly men close their eyes and shoot into the ground... just like people.. if you hit a boar or a deer or a bear with a 44 mag with $4 a box bullets made of wheel weights at half a ton of energy (that is twice what a 10 mm is) he is going to fold up within a few yards. You can keep the other five rounds for another day.

Semi autos are for posers and newbies who can't reload their own ammo. Sorry.. that is just the way it is.. get outdoors and shoot a little instead of posing at some indoor range with rented guns and $30 a box ammo at paper targets 15 yards away.. heck.. shoot at an old car or something if animals scare you.

Really.. a 44 mag is not that hard to master.. I know girls who do just fine shooting it 100 yards or more (that is like 4 times what you are used to) At 100 yards it has more energy than your semi autos at the muzzle (where the bullet comes out).

seriously.. look at what the guides are using.. if they don't trust semi autos to kill a 120 lb deer.. why do you trust it to kill a drugged out bad guy?

ir0nclash86
08-05-2010, 11:42 PM
You want that one stop shot with any caliber? Go to the range and practice headshots on silhouettes.

lazs
08-05-2010, 11:47 PM
plus.. I think PMC and others list the 10mm at about 1200 fps for the 170 at best.. not the 1300 that is shown in the cute poster.

course.. the 44 has been downgraded to 1250 for the 240 but reloads and BB and other loads on the old sami specs are about 1400 for 240 and 1200 for 300 grain slugs.

If anyone is saying a 44 mag is "outdated" while watching one making one inch groups at 50 yards.. well.. they are saying it under their breath. Never seen a 10 mm that would shoot half that well at half the power level.. and.. I kinda like the 10mm.. I also like the 45 for fragile and target stuff.

No fan of the 9 mm but a lot of insane folks have used it effectively lately to kill people. wouldn't trust it on a deer or a hog unless I was in spitting distance. Don't know how much better a 44 mag is on people but even if they are wearing a vest.. the 44 mag will put em down for as long as I need.

Semi autos? unless it is a war.. a lot of misses is not the way to go. Game animals.. cans.. paper targets? You want to hit em not scare em. People? I think if you hit or if you miss.. you are still better off with a 44 mag. If you can handle more like a 454 or 460 in something small enough then more power to ya.

Cyc Wid It
08-05-2010, 11:47 PM
Semi autos are for posers and newbies who can't reload their own ammo. Sorry.. that is just the way it is.. get outdoors and shoot a little instead of posing at some indoor range with rented guns and $30 a box ammo at paper targets 15 yards away.. heck.. shoot at an old car or something if animals scare you.

I'm sorry I'm not Paul Bunyan and I don't collect social security checks. I have no desire nor need to hunt with a handgun, and rarely go hiking in the "wilderness". If I wanted to do that stuff I'd move to one of the useless states.

lazs
08-05-2010, 11:59 PM
cyc.. so what do you do? you shoot people very often? Why not hunt or plink with a handgun? never been outdoors where someone says "see that rock over there by the tree? can u hit it?" and that is 200 yards away? seriously.. I have shot feral dogs with a 44 mag.. I am glad I did not have less of a gun.

I live in Kalifornia.. it has only become useless state in the last decade or so. We are not the laughingstock of free states for no reason you know.

If you want to get fairly good with handguns you will shoot thousands of rounds a month outdoors at all sort of live and static targets at all ranges from 20 to 200 yards or more.. I myself can't shoot long range like some others can. I am out of practice at more than a couple hundred yards. I have killed wild hogs and deer and eaten em.

The cute little 5'2" gals that can shoot 44 mags will be amused that a man like yourself is afraid of 44 mags so much that they think only Paul Bunyan can shoot em tho. They would also be amused at your disdain for everything southern and midwest.. do you live in frisco?

thayne
08-06-2010, 12:08 AM
9mm is not capable of scratching skin. 10mm can rip a hole in the space time continuioum. 45apc is nearly 100 years old so who cares. 44mag and .357 are for revolvers which are primitive, time to move on. Any questions?

Performance wise 45acp < 10mm < .44 mag. 9mm is good for volume, not much more. .44 mag only comes in revolvers and is a novelty round. If you are looking for a good HD gun, stick with 40, 45, or even 10mm if you are afraid a pack of linebackers might attack you.

You guys should come shooting with me. You can hold the targets while I shoot my non-lethal 9mm :rolleyes:

Cyc Wid It
08-06-2010, 12:12 AM
cyc.. so what do you do? you shoot people very often? Why not hunt or plink with a handgun? never been outdoors where someone says "see that rock over there by the tree? can u hit it?" and that is 200 yards away? seriously.. I have shot feral dogs with a 44 mag.. I am glad I did not have less of a gun.

I live in Kalifornia.. it has only become useless state in the last decade or so. We are not the laughingstock of free states for no reason you know.

If you want to get fairly good with handguns you will shoot thousands of rounds a month outdoors at all sort of live and static targets at all ranges from 20 to 200 yards or more.. I myself can't shoot long range like some others can. I am out of practice at more than a couple hundred yards. I have killed wild hogs and deer and eaten em.

The cute little 5'2" gals that can shoot 44 mags will be amused that a man like yourself is afraid of 44 mags so much that they think only Paul Bunyan can shoot em tho. They would also be amused at your disdain for everything southern and midwest.. do you live in frisco?

My point is I live in an urban environment. A majority of my time is not spent in the wilderness. I have absolutely no need for a "bear defense" gun, while it may be fun. I would venture to say that most of the people here in CA and anywhere else in the country for that matter also live in cities and aren't farmers.

Writing off the majority of the people here as newbies and sissies because we aren't Dirty Harry is patronizing to say the least. Last I checked, even the crappy CA economy generates orders of magnitude more money than most of the middle states.

ArmednReady
08-06-2010, 1:05 AM
If you want a revolver I'd go with the new S&W 357 mag as it holds eight rounds. If you want a semi auto I'd go with a 45 ACP. Based on data I've seen, it's a good man stopping round (40 is comparable). 9 mm isn't a good manstopper relative to the other two. The 10 mm better than 45 ACP but ammo is more costly and rare. Both of these likley lead to less practice. I'd go with a 45 ACP of the choices listed. Anything but the 9 mm would get the job done though.


Ok so whats all this about being a "man stopper" Im sorry but a 9mm will definately do the trick. .45 is a great round but the 9mm has been killing before the .45 and it was the round of choice for all leo's until pcp hit the streets. You could be shooting a bb gun for all I care and if your round is placed in the right spot it will stop some1. No1 should knock the 9mm its still 1 of the best rounds out there. People make it seem that if you get shot anywhere with a .45 your going to die as if they are poison dipped rounds. Ive never had any problem (that has 2 legs) that a round or 2 of 9mm HP hasnt solved.

Its not the size....Its how you use it! :43:

ArmednReady
08-06-2010, 1:28 AM
cyc.. so what do you do? you shoot people very often? Why not hunt or plink with a handgun? never been outdoors where someone says "see that rock over there by the tree? can u hit it?" and that is 200 yards away? seriously.. I have shot feral dogs with a 44 mag.. I am glad I did not have less of a gun.

I live in Kalifornia.. it has only become useless state in the last decade or so. We are not the laughingstock of free states for no reason you know.

If you want to get fairly good with handguns you will shoot thousands of rounds a month outdoors at all sort of live and static targets at all ranges from 20 to 200 yards or more.. I myself can't shoot long range like some others can. I am out of practice at more than a couple hundred yards. I have killed wild hogs and deer and eaten em.

The cute little 5'2" gals that can shoot 44 mags will be amused that a man like yourself is afraid of 44 mags so much that they think only Paul Bunyan can shoot em tho. They would also be amused at your disdain for everything southern and midwest.. do you live in frisco?

Thousands of rounds a month at outdoor targets? Do you have a life? Like some1 else said a lot of us live in urban areas not out in the boonies. The need for a .44 mag just isnt there. 9 times out of 10 the noise the gun makes is more likely to scare an animal away. Also im not a hunter I dont kill animals that arent threatening my life I dont eat bear or wild hog Im what you call a city slicker when I want dinner I go to Raley's and buy it. My guns are used for personal and home defense and of course for my job. Id gladly put my 17 shot 9mm against your 6 shot .44 mag any day of the week....but then again my 9mm must be to much of a noob gun right? I do own some wheel guns but nothing bigger than a .357 and that is used for when I do venture into the "boonies"

Its not the size....Its how you use it!:D

cineski
08-06-2010, 7:16 AM
I think there's a conversion barrel for the Glock 20 that does this.

I really like the 7.62x25 Tokarev, I just wish it was chambered in better high capacity polymer guns like a nice Glock.

bombadillo
08-06-2010, 7:22 AM
http://2coolfishing.net/ttmbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=139196&stc=1&d=1197424797

Aaaahhhh 10mm, run away run away.:willy_nilly:

gotshotgun?
08-06-2010, 7:27 AM
I just assembled and photographed this lineup for this thread, in approximate order of stopping power:

http://imagineimagery.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p721895196.jpg


Chris

I think the 10mm is a stronger round than .44 special though

lazs
08-06-2010, 8:22 AM
armedandready.. I am sure that you are the bestest here at killing people but wonder why you need 10 rounds to do it.. You may take your 9mm over a 44 for some spray and pray action but.. would you rather be wearing a vest or hiding behind an "urban" car door and get hit by ONE 44 mag or ONE 9mm? there is more cover in a city than the boonies.

Seriously tho.. if your entire shooting life and.. the reason you own handguns.. is the fact that you are a gunfighter who never leaves a city.. then.... perhaps.. you have the right gun and the right idea.

Myself.. I really hate indoor ranges and like to get outdoors. Easy to shoot a thousand rounds a month just going to the range once a week and out in the sticks once a month or so.. I guess that means I have no life.

But... being told I have no life by someone who arms themselves to the teeth because they think that a gunfight is about to happen at any moment and the only thing guns are for is protection... well... That seems ironic at best to me.

znode
08-06-2010, 9:08 AM
I'm sorry what has momentum got to do with it? Please explain, because I'd like to understand how that has anything to do with a bullet lethality? I hope you aren't just throwing this word around coz it sounds cool.
Ok, I don't really want to step in here, because I don't dispute your conclusion, but your explanation of terminal ballistics is just overly simplistic. You can't just say that momentum has nothing to do with terminal ballistics? I mean, that's half the concept of sectional density.
Momentum is only destructive to the opposing object if and only if the other object has equal or lighter mass.
What? This is just not true. Momentum is not an essential property. It describes an object in motion. Something that kills you will have lethal force AND lethal pressure AND lethal energy AND lethal momentum when you measure it, because they all DESCRIBE the object and are related to each other. It's not that "oh the pressure kills you but the momentum does not."
(Reasoning: change of momentum is force, force is what kills, and the heavier object always has the least change in momentum). Momentum is not effective when the other object is much heavier, especially in an inellastic collision, that's where 1 of the 2 bodies involved are deformed [...] In an inellastic (or any kind of) collision, the victor is always the more massive, not the one with more momentum.That's a high school explanation of momentum. But no, "force" is not what kills, the bullet is what kills. Again, the bullet will have a lethal amount of force AND momentum AND pressure. In an inelastic collision there is no such thing as a "winner". There is just an objective assessment of the damage. A .50 has FAR less momentum than a semi too. But it can go through a semi's engine block and destroy the engine. The only describable result is that the semi has a hole in the engine and the .50 is destroyed. Who "wins"? That's a useless word for inanimate objects. Even if one object suffers more damage than the other the smaller object can still "win" if that's exactly what you're using it for.

Penetration is largely dependant in force per square inch, (the localized force) or pressure, not momentum.
As you said yourself, momentum = force/time. And pressure = force/area. You don't think those are related? Of course they are, by force. Yes, a large caliber has a larger frontal area. But it also has more powder, generating more force. Then it has to fly through the air, the energy (force) loss of which is dependent on momentum to retain. The take-away message here is that terminal ballistics (or any other type of ballistics, internal or external) CANNOT be simplified to one physical property. Otherwise these arguments won't even exist. There'll just be a simple table of what's better and what's not.

Btw pressure is also why a 3A Bullet Proof vest will fail to protect against knife attack. The force in a knife is so focused on a much smaller surface area, hence higher pressure, that the knife will just slice through the vest like butter, when the same vest can easily foil a 9mm or .45 acp round.
This is accurate, but that's not representative of penetration DEPTH. Pressure DOES penetrate - it does the initial work of penetratING. But once you're through the skin, momentum creates the wound channel in our mostly-water bodies (so to speak).

The .45 acp is a man stopper, but it's not a penetrator that the 9mm is. As I'm trying to say here, it DEPENDS ON THE MEDIA. Of both the target and the projectile. I mean, by that metric .223 should penetrate better than .45 ACP right? Well, it does, except when it hits something fluid and breaks apart, and .45ACP will penetrate far more in water (try it yourself). But a steel penetrator 62gr will penetrate more! Yes, it will. Guess why it does? Yielding strength in steel, to better conserve momentum.

ArmednReady
08-06-2010, 11:48 AM
armedandready.. I am sure that you are the bestest here at killing people but wonder why you need 10 rounds to do it.. You may take your 9mm over a 44 for some spray and pray action but.. would you rather be wearing a vest or hiding behind an "urban" car door and get hit by ONE 44 mag or ONE 9mm? there is more cover in a city than the boonies.

Seriously tho.. if your entire shooting life and.. the reason you own handguns.. is the fact that you are a gunfighter who never leaves a city.. then.... perhaps.. you have the right gun and the right idea.

Myself.. I really hate indoor ranges and like to get outdoors. Easy to shoot a thousand rounds a month just going to the range once a week and out in the sticks once a month or so.. I guess that means I have no life.

But... being told I have no life by someone who arms themselves to the teeth because they think that a gunfight is about to happen at any moment and the only thing guns are for is protection... well... That seems ironic at best to me.

Well first of all I wouldnt call myself a gun fighter by any means, I do consider myself good with my 9mm but there are many far better. Also the reason I am "armed to the teeth" is because im a sheriffs deputy and the county I work in isnt exactly candy land, I have made the mistake in living in the same city where I usually patrol so the reason Im always armed is I never know who I may run into on the streets, going to the grocery store, or taking my kids to school...etc. So in my reality the chances of a gunfight are very real at any time. So again the reason I am "armed to the teeth" is to protect my family and loved ones, heck maybe even you if the occasion calls for it. As far as getting shot buy a .44 mag or a 9mm id pick neither ive seen people shot with both a 44 and a 9mm and neither looked like they were fun experiences but like I said before if your shot placement isnt perfect or close to it, it doesnt matter what caliber your shooting (for the most part). Lastly Im sure most people can put a 9mm down range faster and more accurately than they could a .44 but there are always exceptions.

Also my 9mm doesnt carry 10 it carries 17 just wanted to make sure you had your facts right :D

Again, its not the size...its how you use it.

1911Luvr
08-06-2010, 3:00 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/darkwolfstudios/10mm-1.jpg

Am I the only one that thinks if you turn the image 90 degrees counter clockwise it looks like a group of- oh nevermind, forgot this is a family show...
:devil2:

stormy_clothing
08-06-2010, 3:10 PM
Since this thread has ventured into the retarded what if land - I'll just say this what you want to have doesn't matter unless you do have it - if your trying to shoot someone hiding behind something like a car go for your rifle not your handgun. There is no practical application for the 10mm as a defensive sidearm as a choice over a 45. And looking at the glock 21 groupings you cant do much better.

As far as the 10mm goes how many people can afford to shoot enough ammo to really get good follow up shots - buy a 9mm with some decent ammo and use the rest of the money for a laser light and aim for the face

guns_and_labs
08-06-2010, 3:13 PM
Ripping the space time continuum, one shot at a time.

http://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn402/guns_and_labs/CCW/CCW001.jpg

advocatusdiaboli
08-06-2010, 3:14 PM
Man, there are a few laughs here. Most notably the guy who said the 44 mag was a "novelty cartridge"?! I assume you're kidding... If not I'd like for you to meet my Redhawk loaded with a 340gr Garrett ++P with 1700ftlbs of energy out of a 5 inch barrel!... I would get the last laugh :)

But seriously the only correct answer, as with just about every technical discussion, is "it depends". Each cartridge is particularly suited to its intended target/use, and the smart shooter simply matches his need to the right cartridge. For example, I pack that 44mag with the Buffalo Bore ++P rounds when backpacking through brown bear country, as the round is rated "for game up to 2000 lbs". I pack my custom 10mm Glock for lighter 4 legged creatures, like black bear etc, where I can enjoy the lighter weight of the Glock while backpacking. But I would never have the 10mm beside my bed for home protection as it would/could overpenetrate walls, endangering my family and possibly even my neighbors. For that my 40s&w is ideal... And my little 380 is the perfect "deep conceal" weapon for close quarter urban protection. The tiny 380 is quite capable at the very short ranges for which it is intended.

I just assembled and photographed this lineup for this thread, in approximate order of stopping power:

http://imagineimagery.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p721895196.jpg

(380, 9mm, 9mm +p, 40s&w, 45acp, 45acp +p (Federal HST), 10mm (Doubletap 200gr Hardcast flatnose awesome), 460 Rowland, 44 special, 45 Long Colt, 44mag, 44 mag ++P (340gr Buffalo Bore 1700 ftlbs!), 6.8spc, 308 Win)

Hope this helps,

Chris

Ummm .45 did less damage than .40 on the resulting pic if it is to be believed. And .357 SIG created as big a cavity as .45. Nice photo line, biases and all. If the FBI took .357 SIG over .45 and .40 after they left 10mm. Then I'd assume they did a lot of research and made the decision for sound reasons. The Secret Service went with .357 SIG also. They must have good reasons for rejecting .40 and .45--however no one ever addresses that. I'd like to know. I'd also like to know why the Navy SEALs went back to 9mm from .45ACP--they wouldn't do it if they thought it hindered their mission capability.

All the above said, this is a great spectator sport and I just jump in to fan the flames a bit. Microwave just went off--popcorn is ready. Please continue.

igorts
08-06-2010, 3:17 PM
recently shot 10mm at 1650fps, 135 grn D.tap
it felt like .41 mag, but i could not group them well.:D
10mm is my favorite round, i might sell G20, but will keep G29 and try to get revolver in 10mm:)

BTW, in recent Bass Pro accident, ,45 did not penetrate skin...
store was renamed to "*** Pro"

Brian2217
08-06-2010, 3:47 PM
Just buy a little of everything and you won't have to worry about debats like these. You will have all you bases covered then.

With that said, I have seen people shot and killed with 22. and I have seen a guy shot in the head with a 45. and live. When it's your time to depart, it's your time.

I say shot what ever you comfortable with, as only accurate hits count.

Brian

advocatusdiaboli
08-06-2010, 6:01 PM
Just buy a little of everything and you won't have to worry about debats like these. You will have all you bases covered then.

With that said, I have seen people shot and killed with 22. and I have seen a guy shot in the head with a 45. and live. When it's your time to depart, it's your time.

I say shot what ever you comfortable with, as only accurate hits count.

Brian

Oh sure. Look level-headed replies like that are simply no fun at all, party pooper. Way to rain on the parade there Mr. Serious. :chris:

I would like to know why they never make .45 ACP pistols so beautifully colored since they'd fit right in being a tired 100-yearold caliber and all (ready for a walker)...

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi-2010/medium/68130.jpg

It a Taurus 738 TCP in case you'd like one and on sale here (http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=119157)

Brian2217
08-06-2010, 7:09 PM
Advocatusdiaboli,

I didn't mean to rain on anybodys parade. I have to admit there was some pretty funny post in here. But somebody has to be the adult every now and then:D:

Also there is a couple of things I don't do in life. One is I don't do Taurus.:D:

:cheers2:

Oh sure. Look level-headed replies like that are simply no fun at all, party pooper. Way to rain on the parade there Mr. Serious. :chris:

I the to know why they never make .45 ACP pistols so beautifully colored since they'd fit right in being a girly caliber and all...

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi-2010/medium/68130.jpg

It a Taurus 738 TCP in case you'd like one and on sale here (http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=119157)

ALSystems
08-06-2010, 8:06 PM
People make it seem that if you get shot anywhere with a .45 your going to die as if they are poison dipped rounds.
That's what's needed. A HP bullet with some deadly poison included like this:

"Poison Arrow 45" guaranteed one shot stopping power. Offers expansion, penetration and just enough neurotoxin poison to finish off intruders. Also useful against car jackers, gang bangers, door-to-door salesmen and noisy neighbors. :D

lazs
08-07-2010, 10:42 AM
armed and ready.. Since you are police then you are in an entirely different situation than the vast majority of people posting here. As such.. surely you realize that you have nothing in common with the rest of the posters?

Just for instance.. we.. can only have ten round mags. Most here have an extremely hard time getting Concealed carry permits.

For you to tell us what is best for us is really pretty pointless...pretty much like a soldier at war telling us what is the best handgun for hunting.

You really are a gunfighter.. or at the least.. a potential one. I would practice at least 1,000 rounds a month if I were in your position and I would have the most powerful handgun I could handle well.. 9mm would be low on the list.

But even in your situation.. you will most likely never be involved in a gunfight.. You will even less likely be in one where high capacity will save you. If you do get in one.. accuracy and the ability to function under stress will be the most important factors.. The thousands of documented shootouts in America prove that the gun used was rarely a factor.

For everyone else tho.. We don't make a living with a gun and have no special rights. Most of us use handguns as a hobby and in a pinch.. to defend ourselves and ours. I know I personally do not want to ever have to use my gun for that.. I am confident that whatever one I have at the time will work just fine tho.

I don't have confidence that most will work on a hog or feral dog or two. I know some work much better for putting meat on the table and for plinking out in the boonies with friends.. 9 mm is rarely a fun gun.

I also reload to save money and shoot more. it costs the same to reload for a 9 mm as it does for a full house 44 mag. Maybe more for the 9mm if it will only shoot jacketed rounds.

But.. since you are police.. wearing a light vest.. which would you rather get hit by? A 44 mag or a 9mm?

jokat989
08-07-2010, 10:47 AM
my favorite is the one that goes bang when i pull the trigger.

illuminate10
08-07-2010, 12:02 PM
I personally like the 45 for defense against tissue (not kleenex) and want a 10mm to fight off the tanks.

guns_and_labs
08-07-2010, 5:34 PM
Also my 9mm doesnt carry 10 it carries 17 just wanted to make sure you had your facts right :D

Again, its not the size...its how you use it.

Yes, but a Para P16-40 converted to 10mm and with +2 mag extenders would be oh, so much better for a carry rig, with the right practice. :)

lazs
08-08-2010, 9:23 AM
The only way that you can be really sure that the gun is going to go bang when you pull the trigger is with a revolver. You may have to pull the trigger more than once but it will go bang.

ArmednReady
08-08-2010, 1:03 PM
Well Lazs you do have a point I guess when it comes to being on the street I do have and advantage seeing as I can carry almost anywhere....but Im talking mostly about home defense where im no better off than you. Like you said I have a hi-cap mag yes but id never have the chance to empty 17 rounds of 9mm into some1s chest thats what I would call over kill. Although about 2 years ago there was a marine on leave who decided to pull on an officer and got 19 rounds to the chest between the 2 officers but that was on duty thats besisdes the point. ( I was off duty at the time). Back to home defense I am no better off than you besides my mossberg my number 1 home defense gun is my ruger sp101 .357 mag using .38 spl +Ps of course. So I only have 5 shots you just got to make them count. Also to say the 9mm is a weak caliber is pretty ignorant It is and always be a good defense round. Im not saying a .45 or any other round isnt a good round but the 9mm will always have a place for defense in homes and in the streets

sammy
08-08-2010, 2:31 PM
The 10mm's I own are by far the most fun guns to shoot in the safe. The round is very powerful, easy to load and very accurate. It is not practical to shoot the 10mm unless you are rich or reload. Most factory loads are very expensive and weak which is a waste of money. I am loading a Montana Gold 180g FMJ and HP's at 1300fps at a quarter of the cost of factory ammo.

Nothing wrong with .45acp or 9mm. They are totally different animals. I don't own any wheel guns so I don't have any comment on the others.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x183/carcrazysammy/P1010139.jpg

Falstaff
08-08-2010, 5:28 PM
Originally Posted by M198
Performance wise 45acp < 10mm < .44 mag. 9mm is good for volume, not much more. .44 mag only comes in revolvers and is a novelty round. If you are looking for a good HD gun, stick with 40, 45, or even 10mm if you are afraid a pack of linebackers might attack you.


Desert Eagle comes in .44mag...just sayin' ;)

Umm wasnt ther also an Automag .44? (Unequivacable statements on Calguns are ALWAYS suspect.......)

lazs
08-09-2010, 8:50 AM
armedandready.. yes.. in the home you are the same as us but I didn't think that was what you were talking about. A home in the city is much the same as one in the rural areas and you were talking about guns for city use.

On the street.. your situation is completely different than civilians. You are a target. You are known to be police and you are openly carrying and.. the bad guys know that you are not there to scare them off.. you are there to put them in prison.. often for the 3rd strike.. They will almost always run from us if we surprise them by being armed.

Also.. I threw the curve ball of light vests at you. I would agree that the way bullets have come along these days..the once very weak 9mm round is now a very potent killer of light skinned animals like humans. recent shootings by insane people have proven that.

The specialty rounds work almost every time on humans who aren't wearing vests or are not behind cover.

I ran a range for the city because it was on the facility I ran. I got to see at least 5 different police agencies shoot and became pretty good friends with all the instructors as they had to coordinate with me and my guys. Some old school stuff was left on some of the area (it was almost 500 acres) and for fun I would shoot with the cops.

They would set out old vests that were outdated or damaged and my big old clumsy 44 would punch right through.. the 9mm would make a really nice flower petal on the outside of the vest.. as would the 45acp. .357 would mostly get through in the heavier bullets but not in the 125 stuff.

There was also a dodge van and a city mailbox that they used to use for cover and such scenarios. I would set a milk jug of water on the drivers seat and shoot the 44 through the door and splatter the whole inside of the van with water.

The 44 would shoot through one side of the heavy mailbox every time and often.. two sides. The least effective rounds for 9mm (against humans) were the best against cover..the old FMJ roundnose and such would punch through some cover.

Nothing wrong with a 9mm but the situation is not always the best for em. There is a great deal of compromise involved in their choice is all that I am saying.

ArmednReady
08-09-2010, 12:31 PM
Well I never said the .44 is a bad round because its not. Also the 9mm is just my duty gun When Im at home or off duty 9 times out of 10 im carrying my SP101 with some .357 mags sitting pretty. For the same reason you said....like a .44 it doesnt have much of a problem going through most vests and "urban" cover. I would love to carry it as my duty weapon but the fact is that a 5 shot wheel gun just doesnt do it in this time and age from a duty weapon stand point. The wheel gun will always be a potent fight stopper its just the details of my job make it difficult to utilize. In honor of you I am looking into getting a nice .44 mag I was looking at the super redhawk but im not in need of another snubby, since my SP101 already is a 2 1/4 inch. So if you know of a good make and model let me know.

hefedehefe
08-26-2010, 1:23 PM
And here's the caliber comparison pic that the OP requested:

http://www.tophattheater.net/pics/guns/cartridges.jpg

From left to right: .50 BMG, 20 ga. 2.75", 7.62mm NATO, 5.56mm NATO, .50 AE, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, 9mm Luger, .32 ACP and .22 LR

*edit: crud, noticed it doesn't have .44mag or 10mm...

Doesnt show the 10mm

hefedehefe
08-26-2010, 2:35 PM
:D me 2


G29 for me :43:

lazs
08-27-2010, 8:40 AM
armedandready.. I have a Dan Wesson and a ruger redhawk and a superblackhawk and have owned model 29's

The new specs for 44 mag ammo make the model 29/629 very attractive today.. the newer guns will shoot that stuff forever and the big smith is very accurate and..well.. looks nice. I admit that I shot hot reloads in the past and killed a few 29's but now.. most of my loads would be great in a newer smith.

My redhawk is chopped to 4" but you can buy em that way now.. they are not as smooth from the box as a smith and you need to check the throats.. one with a .430-.431 throats is perfect.. you can fire lap the bore so no big deal on tool marks.

The Dan Wesson is great but.. not made any more.. Just shot some sub one inch groups at 25 yards from sandbags with it.. these were 245 grain cast slugs at about 1300 fps.. I am sure a modern model 29 would handle them.

44 mag is a challenge for the shooter and the reloader but you will never get bored with the big 44. It works on game even better than what the paper stats of half a ton of energy would show.

If you cast slugs you can reload for about $4 a box. A good shooting session will probably mean about 100 or so rounds these days for me.. I start to get tired and flinchy after that most times but it is a lot of fun.. I often will shoot a lesser gun and then go back and shoot 50 more or so 44 mags.