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esskay
08-09-2005, 2:20 PM
I read a lot on forums about those in the free states who have "truck guns," i.e. guns that they leave in their vehicles should they be needed in unfortunate circumstances.

Here in Kali with all the restrictive laws, including transportation requirements, makes this somewhat difficult.

But in researching this further (for academic purposes of course) it seems we have a couple reasonable alternatives that fall within a conservative reading of the law. Wanted to solicit opinions from the forum on these hypotheses and thoughts.

Options that could work well:

<STRIKE>1) Revolver, stored in a locked container. Ammunition held in speedloaders stored separately.</STRIKE> {EDITED to remove this option because as noted in a post below, you can only transport handguns (of any kind) from one specific location to another for specific purposes.}

2) Garand, in some sort of container to separate it from ammo, but needn't be locked per law. Ammunition held in en bloc or stripper clips (not considered "magazines" by Kali) stored separately. Theoretically you could also go with any other stripper clip fed non-AW rifle, including some bolt action rifles, SKS, or even a Kali-FAL or FAB10. However, the Garand (or I suppose an SKS) fills these characteristics unmolested, so that puts it at the top of the list for me.

3) Non-AWB pump or semi-auto shotgun, in some sort of container to separate it from ammo, but needn't be locked per law. Shotgun speedloader (http://www.gunaccessories.com/TecLoader/index.asp) holding initial selection of ammo for your initial load, stored separately. Velcro-based sidesaddle (http://www.3gungear.com/Pages/41_sg_gear_selection.html) holding additional ammo stored separately, but easily reattached quickly. See discussion below for reason why you need the sidesaddle to be detached during storage/transportation.

What does NOT work well (being conservative per laws/regulations) are:

1) Any semi-auto handguns, because of concerns around whether a loaded magazine would be considered a "loaded gun." Being conservative, you'd have to have the autoloader in a locked container; a box of ammo separately; and empty magazines. Not exactly quick to deploy should you need it.

2) Shotguns with permanently attached sidesaddles. Non-AWB shotguns needn't be locked, but the definition of a "loaded gun" includes "live cartridge... attached to the firearm." So a completely unloaded shotty, but with a sidesaddle holding live shells would be considered a "loaded gun."

3) Magazine-fed rifles. Non-AW rifles don't need to be in locked containers. But being magazine fed means you have the same legal concerns with transporting loaded mags (see #1 above).

4) Any registered AW. Per Kali transportation requirements, not only do registered AWs need to be in locked containers, they can only be transported when you are going from a specific point A to point B.

Welcome input from everyone.

***LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer, don't shoot yourself in the foot, blah blah blah... ***

gunsnrovers
08-09-2005, 4:30 PM
Marlin lever gun.

Mike Searson
08-09-2005, 4:36 PM
How about a SXS 12 Gauge ...2 rounds of shotgun ammo in your left pocket.

delloro
08-09-2005, 5:22 PM
Originally posted by esskay:
I read a lot on forums about those in the free states who have "truck guns," i.e. guns that they leave in their vehicles should they be needed in unfortunate circumstances....

I always understood "truck guns" to mean a long gun, kept in a truck, because the owner of said truck might have to pull over and deal with someting that needed killin', like a pack of wolves or a grizzly or rustlers or somethin' else, threatening something on the ranch. because there are a lot of people who have to pull over and shoot things all the time to keep their ranches safe. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think it's more sentimental, wishful thinking than anything else, but I could be wrong.

LongBch_SigP226
08-09-2005, 5:50 PM
If I live in bear or mountain lion country then sure I'd carry a gun in my car. But I live in concrete jungle of Los Angeles. I worry about someone breaking into my car and walking off with my gun. If I do carry one, its gotta be something cheap, maybe $200 dollars at most.

stillbigmac
08-09-2005, 6:18 PM
Originally posted by delloro:


I think it's more sentimental, wishful thinking than anything else, but I could be wrong.

I know some ranchers that carry "truck guns". It's not wishful thinking at all. Sometimes it's an animal hit buy a car or otherwise injured, sometimes it's coyotes chasing stock. There are lots of great reasons to keep a rifle handy espesially if your a rancher.
This weekend it's for deer season http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

donger
08-09-2005, 6:37 PM
I think the best option in California is to carry an inexpensive shotgun (ie. used 870 or 590) with a short (or no stock) and keep the shells handy. In an emergency one could load a shell and point the weapon in the right direction while continuing to load the magazine.

esskay
08-09-2005, 6:38 PM
Marlin lever gun
Funny, I almost put an entry for "tubular magazine fed rifle" in the bottom section of less desirable choices. The issue is you can't keep it loaded, and unless there's some sort of speedloader for lever guns that I'm not aware of (maybe there is!), then you have the problem of slow deployment.

SXS 12 Gauge
Good point, another reasonable option though obviously only has 2 round capacity.

I think it's more sentimental, wishful thinking than anything else, but I could be wrong.
Some might see having a firearm available in some form (i.e. locked in your car) when away from home as preferable to not having one available at all. This was really how I was personally thinking about the issue, not "truck gun" in the pure sense of the usual meaning.

I worry about someone breaking into my car and walking off with my gun. If I do carry one, its gotta be something cheap, maybe $200 dollars at most.

The nice thing about the potential options I listed is that they can be real affordable too, e.g. cheap used revolver, cheap CMP rack grade Garand, cheap SKS, cheap ex-PD turn in shotgun, etc

gunsnrovers
08-09-2005, 6:44 PM
Having used lever guns in SASS for a while, I find them very easy to load fast.

No slower then throwing rounds into a pump gun.

esskay
08-09-2005, 7:01 PM
Originally posted by GunsnRovers:
Having used lever guns in SASS for a while, I find them very easy to load fast.

No slower then throwing rounds into a pump gun.
Alright, well you SASS guys can shoot SA revolvers fast and accurately too... so you're already ahead of a lot of people! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

delloro
08-09-2005, 9:18 PM
Originally posted by stillbigbac:
...I know some ranchers that carry "truck guns". It's not wishful thinking at all....

no doubt there are still some ranchers who will need a gun often enough to carry one in their truck, but how many of those folks are left? there are a lot less ranchers than there are "truck guns" I'll bet.

another post here brings up an interesting question to me. I wonder if there are more incidents where real ranchers have a legitimate need for a gun (NOT "that there tweety bird needs shootin" due to boredom) vs. urban dwellers who need to use a firearm in real defense.

has the "truck gun" evolved with our living arrangements?

RRangel
08-09-2005, 9:31 PM
Originally posted by delloro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stillbigbac:
...I know some ranchers that carry "truck guns". It's not wishful thinking at all....

no doubt there are still some ranchers who will need a gun often enough to carry one in their truck, but how many of those folks are left? there are a lot less ranchers than there are "truck guns" I'll bet.

another post here brings up an interesting question to me. I wonder if there are more incidents where real ranchers have a legitimate need for a gun (NOT "that there tweety bird needs shootin" due to boredom) vs. urban dwellers who need to use a firearm in real defense.

has the "truck gun" evolved with out living arrangements? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the answer is that it doesn't matter. That's what the 2nd Amendment is all about. If people want a truck gun then so be it. It's better to have a tool, and not need it than to not have it, and end up needing it.

esskay
08-09-2005, 9:41 PM
Originally posted by DRH:
All handguns are out as transportation is only legal between authorized locations (home, range, gunsmith, temporary residence, etc). You can not just drive around with a handgun, even if it's unload and in a locked box.

DRH, I'd like to hear more about this... from my reading and research, my understanding is that this is only the case for registered AWs, not for handguns generally.

Librarian
08-09-2005, 10:33 PM
PC 12025 says carrying handguns around is illegal: 12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person. IF you do not have CCW or you do not qualify under the exceptions: 12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.
(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.
["anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence,
place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed
by the citizen or legal resident" ]
(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a law enforcement agency for
the purpose of a lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm
pursuant to Section 12084.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined
in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations,
for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that
firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section
2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to
that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the
law enforcement agency.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the
law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to
the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(21) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose
of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that
firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle. You have to be "going somewhere" where you can legally use or possess a handgun (or coming back from such a place), not just driving around. Long guns, however, are not affected by 12025, as several others have noted.

esskay
08-10-2005, 12:01 AM
Holy crap, I missed that, I thought that sort of thing was just for AWs. Thanks guys for the clarification!!

By the way, it's pretty lame but what isn't in this state.

johnny_22
08-10-2005, 9:28 AM
Wouldn't 12026 and 12026.1 apply?

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the application of Section 12031.

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

Also, at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.htm
is a summary of 12026 and 12026.1.

Trader Jack
08-10-2005, 10:35 AM
Most of those "Transportation Laws" where put into place because of "Gang Bangers"

No Intelligent free thinking police officer will bust your BA--- if you have the firearm unloaded and in a locked container AND do not appear as if you are on route to commit a felony.

The real problem is that there are more and more police officers that are "Robots" programed at the local police academy and all they look at is numbers.

I go to many different ranges though out the year. Some as far away as 100 miles. Always ask for and KEEP receipts so if you do get stopped say 35 50 miles from your home you can show an officer proof of legal travel.

Librarian
08-10-2005, 11:40 AM
Usual IANAL warning....

12026 and 12026.1 do both apply, but are modified by 12026.2.

12026 says if you're 18 with no record it's OK to carry on your own property, and you do not need CCW to do that.

12026.1 says if you qualify as in 12026, you are allowed to move a handgun in the described manner to and from your motor vehicle, and in your motor vehicle, and you don't need CCW.

12026.2 says WHERE you are allowed to go when transporting a handgun to avoid the need for CCW. If you are not transporting according to the exceptions to 12025 as listed in 12026.2 (or, likely, any other, closely similar purpose/destination, but one might have to be persuasive to a DA or judge), you need CCW. "any lawful purpose" from 12026.1(a)(2) is being limited to the list in 12026.2, though there is apparently some wiggle room; I have an old copy of 12026.2 where the list was only 12 exceptions, and it's now up to 21. The legislature is clearly trying to limit the 'lawful purposes' to a small number of kinds of things, and occasionally adds another as it may come up; that says there are possibly other 'lawful purposes' besides those on the list, but prudence suggests to me it needs to be pretty obvious.

There are the exemptions of 12027: peace officers, authorized retired peace officers, handgun sellers on business, on-duty military, parading or meeting organizations, guards/messengers on duty, club members at ranges, the famous 12027(g) "Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.", commercial carriers, authorized retired feds, and of course, CCW holders.

There is also the 12025.5 'grave danger' justifiable violation of 12025, but if prosecuted, you have to sell that to a jury.

If a valid legal opinion says different from the above, someone else is free to act on the advice one has paid for. I don't even play a lawyer on TV.

imported_Telpierion
08-10-2005, 4:27 PM
12026.1 says if it's in your vehicle it's ok. 12026.2 covers instances other than in your vehicle.

Librarian
08-10-2005, 5:00 PM
The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle. seems to indicate 12061.2 anticipates transportation in a vehicle, at least some of the time. Certainly in my case, very few of those destinations can be reached conveniently from my home without using a motor vehicle.

Machtinger's book "How to own a gun & stay out of jail", California, 1999, at 51 seems to agree. (Exceptions for certain situations). Since Machtinger, Kasler, and the plain meaning of the black-letter law all seem to have the same result, I know how I choose to act. Other mileage may vary.

imported_Telpierion
08-10-2005, 9:25 PM
seems to indicate 12061.2 anticipates transportation in a vehicle, at least some of the time. Certainly in my case, very few of those destinations can be reached conveniently from my home without using a motor vehicle.


It's not anticipating transport in a vehicle. It's just using the same definition of locked container used elsewhere for consistency. Notice it makes no mention of a vehicle's trunk. 12026.2 is a separate exception to 12025 and not a condition for the exception provided in 12026.1. If 12026.2 were a condition of 12026.1 those conditions would be mentioned in 12026.1 or 12026.1 would reference 12026.2. The black letter of the law states it's legal to transport in the trunk of a vehicle or in a locked container in a vehicle

jnojr
09-02-2005, 4:51 PM
Originally posted by esskay:
1) Any semi-auto handguns, because of concerns around whether a loaded magazine would be considered a "loaded gun." Being conservative, you'd have to have the autoloader in a locked container; a box of ammo separately; and empty magazines. Not exactly quick to deploy should you need it.

Old wives tale.

My CJ instructor (LASD 9 years, and then another 12 or so up north) said this was the case a loooong time ago, but there was a court decision that knocked it down. Loaded mags that are right next to the handgun are technically OK. You might get a raving anti-gun cop to give you a few hours of grief over it, though, just like is always possible with any gun-related situation in CA. Most cops do not know the gun laws at all... if the gun is "scary looking", it's "illegal", and you gotta go through the court process no matter what.

capitol
09-02-2005, 5:33 PM
Wonder how the law pertains to shotguns?

09-02-2005, 6:02 PM
Another question. There is a federal law that you can't go closer than 1000 feet to schools (I'm not sure what category of schools) with any guns. AFAIK, there is no exception for guns that are otherwise being legally transported (say locked and unloaded in the trunk, on the way from home to the range). If this were really true, then driving to a range would be legally quite dangerous, as it is easy to get within 1000 feet of a school and not even know it (there might be one on a sidestreet). There are also more explicit cases: there might be a school along the road you take to get to the range, or you might stop at the school on the way to the range to drop your kid off in the morning.

Can someone clarify? How does the question of schools and guns pertain to otherwise legal transportation of guns?

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
09-02-2005, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by esskay:
1) Any semi-auto handguns, because of concerns around whether a loaded magazine would be considered a "loaded gun." Being conservative, you'd have to have the autoloader in a locked container; a box of ammo separately; and empty magazines. Not exactly quick to deploy should you need it.

NOT TRUE!

Loaded Mags are NOT considered a 'loaded weapon' anywhere in California, if you are not a STREET GANG MEMBER. PEROID.

Oddly enough: a single cartridge or loaded mag literally rubberbanded to the side of any gun, IS considered a loaded weapon (roll eyes.)

I carry an SU-16 with loaded mags in the mag pouches of the soft-case. Takes a few seconds to employ tops, and conforms to the letter of CA statute and case law.

Lastly, consult your attorney before doing anything of the above, I'm not one.

Renron
03-30-2006, 8:40 AM
What if you live at the end of a dead-end street and a school is 1/2 way down the block? I don't think anyone with 1/2 a brain is going to bother you. If you don't have "Cop Killer" tattooed across your forehead, be polite, civil and respectful of the job the "cops" are doing they will be cool. If on the other hand you have a pistol on the seat next to you...... expect a hassle, you deserve it.
common sense......Yah, I know this is Kali.forkya.

Major Miner II
03-30-2006, 9:18 AM
Locking trunk drawer FTW!

http://images.orvis.com/orvis_assets/prodimg/39GG_combo.jpg

choochboost
03-30-2006, 9:41 AM
PC 12025 says carrying handguns around is illegal:
Quote:
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

Doesn't 12025 apply specifically to carrying concealed?

nrandell
03-30-2006, 9:49 AM
Paragraph 9 says:

(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.

But what if you're going to a legal shooting area on either public or private property? If the place doesn't have a business license, does that mean you can't shoot your handguns there?

paradox
03-30-2006, 10:48 AM
Get a K31 and and some mil-surp ammo. Store the loaded mag in your glove compartment and lock the gun to an eye bolt in your trunk with a cable lock. Don't want the possibility that a kid gets ahold of a gun without a lock: felony for you.

This will set you back ~$100 and would be effective for just about anything from finishing off a wounded deer or dealing with an Elk Grove style shooting spree.

grammaton76
03-30-2006, 1:15 PM
Get a K31 and and some mil-surp ammo. Store the loaded mag in your glove compartment and lock the gun to an eye bolt in your trunk with a cable lock. Don't want the possibility that a kid gets ahold of a gun without a lock: felony for you.

This will set you back ~$100 and would be effective for just about anything from finishing off a wounded deer or dealing with an Elk Grove style shooting spree.

Eh, I wouldn't do that to a K-31 - generally they're in too good a shape to subject them to that. They're also REALLY long and unmaneuverable. A Mosin-Nagant M44, on the other hand... remember, you're not trying to take long range sniper shots with a trunk gun. :)

WhiteSands
03-30-2006, 2:49 PM
How about Pick Up Trucks?

How can I comply with law?

MrTuffPaws
03-30-2006, 3:11 PM
Sks with a loaded stripper close by. I am pretty sure that loaded strippers are not considered a gun, yet.

MrTuffPaws
03-30-2006, 3:12 PM
How about Pick Up Trucks?

How can I comply with law?

Locking tool box in the bed.

EBWhite
03-30-2006, 3:20 PM
Locking tool box in the bed.


or buy one of those lock mechanisms that cops use. I found one at the county auction for 40 bucks. Came with a video camera tripod i sold on ebay for over 200 bucks. so it was free...you hook it up to a switch under the dash or use a key and your good to go. Keep a cheap shotgun and then a package of rounds in the center console.

paradox
03-30-2006, 3:49 PM
Eh, I wouldn't do that to a K-31 - generally they're in too good a shape to subject them to that. They're also REALLY long and unmaneuverable. A Mosin-Nagant M44, on the other hand... remember, you're not trying to take long range sniper shots with a trunk gun. :)


My K-31 measures 43 1/2 inches OAL. That is enough to fit in a Nash Metropolitan trunk. There aren't many four wheeled autos with less trunk room out there. The wood is usually already pretty banged up anyway, so a bit more won't matter. If you're too concerned, mount a rack and/or use a gun sock or soft case.

Regardless, milsurp bolt actions are the way to go in my opinion because they are:

* cheap
* already beat around a bit
* capable of being taken into combat

ja391
03-31-2006, 3:29 AM
Old wives tale.

My CJ instructor (LASD 9 years, and then another 12 or so up north) said this was the case a loooong time ago, but there was a court decision that knocked it down. Loaded mags that are right next to the handgun are technically OK. You might get a raving anti-gun cop to give you a few hours of grief over it, though, just like is always possible with any gun-related situation in CA. Most cops do not know the gun laws at all... if the gun is "scary looking", it's "illegal", and you gotta go through the court process no matter what.

Would you happen to know if it's perfectly legal to carry ammo in your pocket? Someone at a range told me, that it's illegal to carry loose ammo in your pocket (while not at a shooting range, of course), but I doubt this is true. Although, it doesn't really matter too much since I wouldn't carry loose ammo in my pocket anyway.

Veritas_223
03-31-2006, 11:10 AM
Mosin-Nagant M38 (no bayonet) and 7.62x54r ammo on stripper clips. Keep the strippers in the glove compartment. An SKS would be a good choice with strippers, however some cops/DA may confuse them when that Devil AK-47
:rolleyes:

Librarian
03-31-2006, 1:05 PM
Doesn't 12025 apply specifically to carrying concealed?
Yes, but the thread is about a 'truck gun' and started with reference to handguns. I've seen visible long-gun racks in trucks, mostly; I suppose such things may be available or adaptable such that one need not carry a handgun concealed in a vehicle. My unfamiliarity with such caused me to overlook that possibility.

It's also not the way I'd choose to transport a concealable handgun, since without CCW it's supposed to be in some kind of locked container (or, you can get a license to carry loaded, exposed if your county has fewer than 200,000 people).

Librarian
03-31-2006, 1:11 PM
Would you happen to know if it's perfectly legal to carry ammo in your pocket? Someone at a range told me, that it's illegal to carry loose ammo in your pocket (while not at a shooting range, of course), but I doubt this is true. Although, it doesn't really matter too much since I wouldn't carry loose ammo in my pocket anyway. In a really brief scan through the Penal Code that mentions ammunition, if it isn't a prohibited ammo type, and you are not a prohibited person, carrying ammunition by itself doesn't seem to be addressed.

Don't try to go through airport security, though.

sloguy
09-01-2007, 3:42 AM
i have a question. in regard to a ar-7 survival rifle. when the gun is disassembled for storage, and packed into its own buttstock, would a loaded magazine inside the stock count as a loaded weapon? for one, the magazone wpould be in a compartment inside the stock, not in the magazine well. second, the gun is disassembled and inoperable. would either of thos points make it ok for me to keep ammo in the magazine in a stowed rifle?

hoffmang
09-01-2007, 10:39 AM
Loaded magazines in the stock are more than likely legal. Having a loaded magazines in the magwell of a disassembled rifle is probably against the law.

See http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf

-Gene

WokMaster1
09-01-2007, 12:09 PM
Mosin-Nagant M38 (no bayonet) and 7.62x54r ammo on stripper clips. Keep the strippers in the glove compartment. An SKS would be a good choice with strippers, however some cops/DA may confuse them when that Devil AK-47
:rolleyes:

If you put in a Pink stock, with a Hello Kitty on the buttstock, they might not think that way.......:eek:

TonyNorCal
09-01-2007, 2:17 PM
SKS seems to me to be an ideal candidate for a trunk gun...

Simple, solid, reliable, accurate as it needs to be for SHTF (and some SKSs are actually quite accurate), and fires a round that has decent barrier penetration and arrives on target with a little oomph.

And...you have a bayonet:)....just in case.

For a standard passenger car one could leave the SKS locked in the trunk and have a few stripper clips in a pouch up with you in the crew compartment...so in the highly unlikely event you'd ever need the rifle you could exit the vehicle, strap ammo to your waist...and unlock the trunk...

Of course, the ammo and rifle could also be in the trunk...just separate.

I agree that rifles pose less issues than handguns...and if you really need to pull a gun...if it's that bad...you might as well have a rifle.

Librarian
09-01-2007, 2:44 PM
I tend to agree on the SKS - but there's a 'usage' consideration for any trunk gun.

I think I agree with some other posters that, in ordinary times, if you have the opportunity to

stop the car
open the trunk
load the gun
you also have the time to drive away, remembering that the car is also a 3-5000 pound deadly weapon in itself.

On the other hand, California has these earthquake thingies. It's possible that roads/freeways might become unusable for anything short of a 4wd (and maybe too broken for them, in places), and one might have to abandon the car and walk.

The ability to resist predators in an emergency sure would be handy.

Socal858
09-01-2007, 4:00 PM
mosin m38 w/stripper clips :)

ccwguy
09-01-2007, 6:13 PM
Yes, but the thread is about a 'truck gun' and started with reference to handguns. I've seen visible long-gun racks in trucks, mostly; I suppose such things may be available or adaptable such that one need not carry a handgun concealed in a vehicle. My unfamiliarity with such caused me to overlook that possibility.

It's also not the way I'd choose to transport a concealable handgun, since without CCW it's supposed to be in some kind of locked container (or, you can get a license to carry loaded, exposed if your county has fewer than 200,000 people).

There is no license required to openly carry in a county of less than 200,00.
There is ALWAYS a license required to carry it concealed, anywhere.

There is no license required to carry openly in any unincorporated area of California other than State parks, wildlife refuges, federal lands. Most ALL local bylaws do NOT allow it. So carry in the tulies all you like.

You may hunt in the National forests, but you may not do any recreational shooting! BIG difference.

A CCW does not allow me exemptions on firearms that are not listed o my permit.You are normally allowed only 3 on such.

There are no regulations or laws restricting you from driving around with a rifle under the backseat. As long as it is not loaded. As for 'concealable firearms' (handguns) if it is locked seperate from ammo, you can drive around for years with it in your vehicle without breaking any laws. You may drive 'thru' a school zone till the cows come home.

A concealable weapon (handgun) need not be locked up if you are returning from or going to the range. So... we are all constantly on our way to or from the range, got IT?wink, wink.


Careful not to confuse 'concealable weapons' regulations with long arms, it is a totally different world.

go here and print it out... http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

CCW is NOT a get out of trouble free card. It has nothing to do with any other firearms transportation or possession laws. It pertains to itemized 'carry guns' only. If you have a loaded pisol on your person in public that is not on your license, FELONY.

CSDGuy
09-01-2007, 6:25 PM
Ya know, where does PC 12026.2 create a crime? It appears to create exemptions to 12025. Since PC 12025 deals ONLY with a "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" and you're transporting in accordance to 12026.1, aren't you already exempt from 12025? Also, I don't see where 12026.1 or 12026.2 applies to non-AW long guns either.

ccwguy: I when I was working on this post, I didn't see that you'd posted info along the same lines... Thanks!!!!

ccwguy
09-01-2007, 6:44 PM
Ya know, where does PC 12026.2 create a crime? It appears to create exemptions to 12025. Since PC 12025 deals ONLY with a "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" and you're transporting in accordance to 12026.1, aren't you already exempt from 12025? Also, I don't see where 12026.1 or 12026.2 applies to non-AW long guns either.

ccwguy: I when I was working on this post, I didn't see that you'd posted info along the same lines... Thanks!!!!


One of MANY loopholes found IF you actually read all the info first and then cross reference! Very simple really. Most only scan the laws and make a poor interpretation, which if usually wrong anyway!

aplinker
09-01-2007, 9:18 PM
I would say you need to think about 1st what you would want, if there were NO legal restrictions, and then adjust.

Theft is probably the biggest issue, so you'd want inexpensive.

Personally, if law were not an issue at all, I would want two guns with me.

A cheap, reliable semi- in 9mm (hp's are just fine and capacity is good) or .357 revolver (cheap and durable). Glock 17 is probably the best choice. Ruger GP-100 is up there, too. WELL used is great, too!

Along with that, I'd want a cheap, penetrating, fast loading semi-auto or pump long arm that can hit paper plates at 200yds. This, for me, leaves out a shotgun. I'd go with either a cheap AK or Saiga, or maybe the pump Browning. I'm mag-centric, or I'd add SKS, but the SKS is also LONG. Damn, I wish Saiga had a .223 that took AR mags at their regular price... Poor man's cali-legal Galil for $280... who WOULDN'T buy that?! But even the regular AKs and Saigas are good... you're trading cost in mags with a Saiga for rifle cost with an AK. I know which I'd pick.

Loaded mags isn't an issue, so both of those are fine. Shotgun side-saddle is fine, but I'd rather have mags than shells. Shotguns are great for out to 50 (maybe 100) yards, but that's it, unless it's specifically for slugs...

When it comes down to it, I'd always rather have a long-arm than a handgun, if needed. So, Saiga or AK with MMG.


I read a lot on forums about those in the free states who have "truck guns," i.e. guns that they leave in their vehicles should they be needed in unfortunate circumstances.

Here in Kali with all the restrictive laws, including transportation requirements, makes this somewhat difficult.

But in researching this further (for academic purposes of course) it seems we have a couple reasonable alternatives that fall within a conservative reading of the law. Wanted to solicit opinions from the forum on these hypotheses and thoughts.

Options that could work well:

<STRIKE>1) Revolver, stored in a locked container. Ammunition held in speedloaders stored separately.</STRIKE> {EDITED to remove this option because as noted in a post below, you can only transport handguns (of any kind) from one specific location to another for specific purposes.}

2) Garand, in some sort of container to separate it from ammo, but needn't be locked per law. Ammunition held in en bloc or stripper clips (not considered "magazines" by Kali) stored separately. Theoretically you could also go with any other stripper clip fed non-AW rifle, including some bolt action rifles, SKS, or even a Kali-FAL or FAB10. However, the Garand (or I suppose an SKS) fills these characteristics unmolested, so that puts it at the top of the list for me.

3) Non-AWB pump or semi-auto shotgun, in some sort of container to separate it from ammo, but needn't be locked per law. Shotgun speedloader (http://www.gunaccessories.com/TecLoader/index.asp) holding initial selection of ammo for your initial load, stored separately. Velcro-based sidesaddle (http://www.3gungear.com/Pages/41_sg_gear_selection.html) holding additional ammo stored separately, but easily reattached quickly. See discussion below for reason why you need the sidesaddle to be detached during storage/transportation.

What does NOT work well (being conservative per laws/regulations) are:

1) Any semi-auto handguns, because of concerns around whether a loaded magazine would be considered a "loaded gun." Being conservative, you'd have to have the autoloader in a locked container; a box of ammo separately; and empty magazines. Not exactly quick to deploy should you need it.

2) Shotguns with permanently attached sidesaddles. Non-AWB shotguns needn't be locked, but the definition of a "loaded gun" includes "live cartridge... attached to the firearm." So a completely unloaded shotty, but with a sidesaddle holding live shells would be considered a "loaded gun."

3) Magazine-fed rifles. Non-AW rifles don't need to be in locked containers. But being magazine fed means you have the same legal concerns with transporting loaded mags (see #1 above).

4) Any registered AW. Per Kali transportation requirements, not only do registered AWs need to be in locked containers, they can only be transported when you are going from a specific point A to point B.

Welcome input from everyone.

***LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer, don't shoot yourself in the foot, blah blah blah... ***

Librarian
09-01-2007, 9:32 PM
Ya know, where does PC 12026.2 create a crime? It appears to create exemptions to 12025. Since PC 12025 deals ONLY with a "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" and you're transporting in accordance to 12026.1, aren't you already exempt from 12025? Also, I don't see where 12026.1 or 12026.2 applies to non-AW long guns either.

ccwguy: I when I was working on this post, I didn't see that you'd posted info along the same lines... Thanks!!!!
This keeps coming up.

12026.2 does not create a crime. 12025 creates the crime; 12026.2 is exceptions to being charged with the crime of carrying a concealed weapon.

OPINION: not being a lawyer, and never having seen any case law to clarify, this is my OPINION only.

The Legislature does not want you to carry a concealable weapon without CCW.

Since they haven't managed to ban them entirely, and not everyone gets CCW, 12026.2(a) provides legal places in from/to pairs. The general pattern is FROM a place where it is legal to possess/use a concealable handgun - for example, your house - TO a place where it is legal to possess/use a concealable handgun - for example, a shooting range.

12026.2(c) is the 'we didn't think of everything and write it here' clause.

To assert that 12026.2 has no effect on transport if one is following the rules of 12026.1 is to assert that 12026.2 has no effect at all. That's possible, but extremely unlikely.

Since it is my opinion that 12026.2 must have some effect, I choose to believe its language is relatively straightforward; it restricts the places to which one can legally transport a concealable handgun, and by inference, prohibits other reasons/places - but maybe 12026.2(c) might cover some cases.

Other people may choose to believe otherwise. At some point there probably will be case law to make more sense of this. Certainly I know of no one who has been prosecuted for 12025 based on not following 12026.2, so the odds of getting caught seem quite small.

ETA just checked FindLaw - only 2 California Supreme Court or Court of Appeals cases since 1934:
1. Nichols v. County of Santa Clara (1990) 223 Cal.App.3d 1236 [273 Cal.Rptr. 84]

2. Kasler v. Lockyer (2000) [ Cal.4th ]

even mention 12026.2.

CitaDeL
09-01-2007, 10:11 PM
There is no license required to openly carry in a county of less than 200,00.


A small point-

There is no license required to openly carry in any county in California, regardless of population. There is however, a provision for a license to carry "loaded and exposed" for counties with a population of 200,000 in PC12050.

CSDGuy
09-01-2007, 10:34 PM
This keeps coming up.

12026.2 does not create a crime. 12025 creates the crime; 12026.2 is exceptions to being charged with the crime of carrying a concealed weapon.

OPINION: not being a lawyer, and never having seen any case law to clarify, this is my OPINION only.

The Legislature does not want you to carry a concealable weapon without CCW.

Since they haven't managed to ban them entirely, and not everyone gets CCW, 12026.2(a) provides legal places in from/to pairs. The general pattern is FROM a place where it is legal to possess/use a concealable handgun - for example, your house - TO a place where it is legal to possess/use a concealable handgun - for example, a shooting range.

12026(c) is the 'we didn't think of everything and write it here' clause.

To assert that 12026.2 has no effect on transport if one is following the rules of 12026.1 is to assert that 12026.2 has no effect at all. That's possible, but extremely unlikely.

Since it is my opinion that 12026.2 must have some effect, I choose to believe its language is relatively straightforward; it restricts the places to which one can legally transport a concealable handgun, and by inference, prohibits other reasons/places - but maybe 12026.2(c) might cover some cases.

Other people may choose to believe otherwise. At some point there probably will be case law to make more sense of this. Certainly I know of no one who has been prosecuted for 12025 based on not following 12026.2, so the odds of getting caught seem quite small.

ETA just checked FindLaw - only 2 California Supreme Court or Court of Appeals cases since 1934:
1. Nichols v. County of Santa Clara (1990) 223 Cal.App.3d 1236 [273 Cal.Rptr. 84]

2. Kasler v. Lockyer (2000) [ Cal.4th ]

even mention 12026.2.

12026(c) does not do what you think it does. It simply separates PC 12025/12026/12026.1/12026.2 from 12031 so that they can be applied separately. Basically, you can be charged with CCW while having an unloaded firearm and you can be charged having a loaded firearm and yet not be charged with CCW. For handgun purposes, 12026.2 creates additional exemptions to 12025. Since 12026.2 is also part of the AW laws, it's written a little differently and therefore delineates where you can transport an AW legally. Kassler was an AW case, that's probably why 12026.2 is mentioned.

Librarian
09-01-2007, 11:09 PM
12026(c) does not do what you think it does. Sorry, typo - I meant 12026.2(c),(fixed in the original, but you caught it before I did) (c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.This is what I was responding to: As for 'concealable firearms' (handguns) if it is locked seperate from ammo, you can drive around for years with it in your vehicle without breaking any laws.I don't think that's the case.

Unless you're a lawyer, offering a bet-your-license bit of advice for free on the net (which I believe no lawyer would do), I think I'd prefer a more cautious interpretation - acknowledging that I can't find any case law going either way.

Several conversations over the years have included suggestions that one or another participant was going to purchase real legal advice on this point. None of those have come back to share the result, and since I haven't paid for an opinion, I have no complaint about not seeing any such result.

tyrist
09-02-2007, 3:04 PM
Just remember there are city ordinances dealing with some of these laws and you may be in compliance with state law but not with local laws. You may finally win a ruling in your favor in court but it could be costly

yellowsulphur
09-03-2007, 2:13 AM
I don't have a designated "truck gun", but if I did it would have to be the Kel-Tec SU-16ca. Small footprint when folded, lightweight, easily locked in the spare tire well, takes AR magazines, being plastic no worry of scratches, decent accuracy, and not too expensive.

DedEye
09-03-2007, 2:44 AM
A small point-

There is no license required to openly carry in any county in California, regardless of population. There is however, a provision for a license to carry "loaded and exposed" for counties with a population of 200,000 in PC12050.

I was never sure how to read that law. I always thought it meant that you could open carry only if you had a CCW. Does it mean you can if you don't?

-aK-
09-03-2007, 3:27 AM
You may hunt in the National forests, but you may not do any recreational shooting! BIG difference.


CCW,

I'm curious as to why you said this. If this is true please guide me to where I can read up on it.

I'm under the impression that you are free to recreational shoot in national forest. Not counting other restrictions such as from a road, certain wildlife refuge areas, parks, or incorporated city.

I've spoken to forest service to confirm this and have even poured over a topo map with the ranger who sold me the map just to make sure that I was okay.

In that particular instance I was discussing Stanislaus National Forest and was "basically told" by the ranger that I would be ok anywhere out in national forest. That changes in the wilderness area of the Emigrant gap wilderness area where; hunting is ok, and carrying is ok, but discharging firearms for fun is not.

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all areas that are unlawful to discharge as stated in pc 12031.

-aK-
09-03-2007, 3:30 AM
This thread is almost a month old and I just read it...

-hanko
09-03-2007, 9:23 AM
You may hunt in the National forests, but you may not do any recreational shooting! BIG difference.
I'm surprised...I shoot a bunch in more than a few national forests and I'm definitely not hunting most of the time.

Care to cite the law??;)

Thanks

-hanko

Librarian
09-03-2007, 10:45 AM
I was never sure how to read that law. I always thought it meant that you could open carry only if you had a CCW. Does it mean you can if you don't?Yes, that's what it means.

But rather than any positive statement, you have to look at everything about concealed weapons; you'll then find out that nowhere is unloaded open carry prohibited. It's like it somehow got overlooked.

Loaded open carry is a different animal, discussed in this thread already.