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jlh95811
06-23-2009, 9:07 AM
This question is probably not what you think.
I've done quite a few transfers of pistols lately. I know that it must have a lock. But what if it comes with one?
I'm not going to mention the FFL holders by name just in case. I've actually had one not ask for a lock and no mention of one on pickup day but that's another story.
One store I've done 2 transfers at uses the lock it comes in with from the other party. One store says they log it as OEM. And one store says I must have a lock with a receipt no older than 30 days.
More stores do it than don't in my experience.
So which way is right?

SVT-40
06-23-2009, 2:41 PM
Here is some info related to the Child safety act lock requirements:

Here's more BATFE answers to questions gun owners have concerning the special provisions of the Child Safety Lock Act (CLSA):

What is the purpose of the Child Safety Lock Act?

The stated purposes of the Child Safety Lock Act (CSLA) are as follows:

To promote the safe storage and use of handguns by consumers;

To prevent unauthorized persons, including children, from gaining access to or use of a handgun;

To avoid hindering industry from supplying firearms to law-abiding citizens for all lawful purposes, including hunting, self-defense, collecting, and competitive or recreational shooting.

What qualifies as a secure gun storage or safety device?

The term “secure gun storage or safety device” is defined as follows:

a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;

a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or

a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.

Most commercially marketed handgun safety locks or devices fit within the statutory definition. ATF does not consider the use of zip ties, rope, or string sufficient to satisfy the definition set forth in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(34).

When must secure gun storage or a safety device be provided and are there any exceptions?

A secure gun storage or safety device is required with the sale, delivery, or transfer of a handgun to a nonlicensee. This provision does not apply to the transfer of handguns to any Federal firearms licensee, nor does it apply to the following:

The handgun’s manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State; or

The handgun’s transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in paragraph (a) for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty);



BATFE does not care if the lock arrives with the handgun from the original owner on a PPT. It's just required to leave with one. It's usually just noted on the DROS form as "COMES WITH LOCK".

Or a copy of the receipt showing a purchase of a lock the day of pick up.

ke6guj
06-23-2009, 8:13 PM
A secure gun storage or safety device is required with the sale, delivery, or transfer of a handgun to a nonlicensee. This provision does not apply to the transfer of handguns to any Federal firearms licensee, nor does it apply to the following:hmm, I wonder if that applies to C&R FFLs as well for all handguns, C&R or modern? If so, one could possibly supply a copy of the C&R to satisfy the feds and then do a Safe Affidavit to satisfy CADOJ.


BATFE does not care if the lock arrives with the handgun from the original owner on a PPT. It's just required to leave with one. It's usually just noted on the DROS form as "COMES WITH LOCK".

Or a copy of the receipt showing a purchase of a lock the day of pick up.correct, BATFE doesn't care where it comes from, just that it leaves with a lock. So why couldn't a person supply a lock (without a <30-day receipt) to satisfy the federal requirements and fill out a Safe Affidavit to satisfy CADOJ?

SVT-40
06-23-2009, 11:48 PM
hmm, I wonder if that applies to C&R FFLs as well for all handguns, C&R or modern? If so, one could possibly supply a copy of the C&R to satisfy the feds and then do a Safe Affidavit to satisfy CADOJ.


correct, BATFE doesn't care where it comes from, just that it leaves with a lock. So why couldn't a person supply a lock (without a <30-day receipt) to satisfy the federal requirements and fill out a Safe Affidavit to satisfy CADOJ?

Because BATFE says that does not comply with the law.

The law requires the lock to be furnished to the handgun purchaser. Not the other way around.

bohoki
06-24-2009, 12:15 AM
Because BATFE says that does not comply with the law.

The law requires the lock to be furnished to the handgun purchaser. Not the other way around.

this is why before you arrive at the ffl for the ppt you tape a project childsafe lock on the pistolcontainer

ke6guj
06-24-2009, 12:26 AM
Because BATFE says that does not comply with the law.

The law requires the lock to be furnished to the handgun purchaser. Not the other way around.Here is the pertinent section of the law,

922(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.— (1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.
(2) Exceptions.— Paragraph (1) shall not apply to—
(A)
(i) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, of a handgun; or
(ii) the transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in clause (i) of a handgun for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty); or
(B) the transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer employed by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State of a handgun for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(C) the transfer to any person of a handgun listed as a curio or relic by the Secretary pursuant to section 921 (a)(13); or
(D) the transfer to any person of a handgun for which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in the exceptions stated in section 923 (e), if the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10 calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the transferee a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.OK, ignoring state law for a moment, it appears that C&R FFLs and LEOs (for LE-related handguns) are exempt from the federal handgun lock rule. And C&R handguns are exempt from the federal handgun lock rule for everyone. So, if you are exempt from the federal law, you then only have to comply with state law, and those exempted people and handguns could comply with state law with the Safe affidavit.

I don't see where federal law prohibits a person from giving an FFL a lock that the FFL could then provide to the transferee at time of delivery. Now, in order to comply with state law, it may need to be a CA-approved safety lock, so I don't know if the project childsafe locks are Rostered.

wildhawker
06-24-2009, 12:31 AM
Granted, locks are usually $5 or less, but this is another law I look forward to seeing equally applied.

SVT-40
06-24-2009, 1:08 PM
this is why before you arrive at the ffl for the ppt you tape a project childsafe lock on the pistolcontainer

+1 It takes the heat off the FFL, and fully complies with the law!!

CHS
06-24-2009, 4:01 PM
Hrmmm...

So:

1.) Bring in a lock to give to the FFL to keep with the gun you're purchasing for 10 days.
2.) After 10 days, deliver the firearm with the lock, satisfying federal requirements. This lock does not have to be a CA DoJ approved lock.
3.) Have the customer fill out the safe affidavit to satisfy CA DoJ requirements.


Am I missing anything? Do we need some sort of proof for #2?

ke6guj
06-24-2009, 4:16 PM
Hrmmm...

So:

1.) Bring in a lock to give to the FFL to keep with the gun you're purchasing for 10 days.
2.) After 10 days, deliver the firearm with the lock, satisfying federal requirements. This lock does not have to be a CA DoJ approved lock.
3.) Have the customer fill out the safe affidavit to satisfy CA DoJ requirements.


Am I missing anything? Do we need some sort of proof for #2?I think it may need to be a Rostered lock.

12088.15. (a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearms safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088, or that does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.
(b) No person may distribute as part of an organized firearm safety program, with or without consideration, any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088 or does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.
Even though the FFL isn't actually "selling" the lock, to be safe, it may need to be rostered.

It looks like those project childsafe locks must be Rostered, otherwise they are violating 12088.15(b) by distibuting an non-rostered lock.

I like the C&R FFL option even better. Just fill out the safe affidavit and give the dealer a copy of your C&R FFL and you should be complying with both CA and federal law without having to deal with a safey lock.

bohoki
06-24-2009, 6:15 PM
Hrmmm...

So:

1.) Bring in a lock to give to the FFL to keep with the gun you're purchasing for 10 days.

Am I missing anything? Do we need some sort of proof for #2?



nooooooo never give the ffl any reasonto believe that the lock is not coming from the seller

CHS
06-24-2009, 6:27 PM
nooooooo never give the ffl any reasonto believe that the lock is not coming from the seller

That's fine too.

So step 1 is the seller gives the lock to the FFL, in order to deliver to the buyer. This lock should be a CA DoJ approved lock to satisfy CA law and Federal law at the same time.

The gunsafe affidavit satisfies CA law for the "receipt dated within 30 days" requirement.

DeLaSeoulRZN
06-24-2009, 7:21 PM
I've also just signed the affadavit that says you have an approved safe or locked container and not had to deal with the separate lock issue.

Hrmmm...

So:

1.) Bring in a lock to give to the FFL to keep with the gun you're purchasing for 10 days.
2.) After 10 days, deliver the firearm with the lock, satisfying federal requirements. This lock does not have to be a CA DoJ approved lock.
3.) Have the customer fill out the safe affidavit to satisfy CA DoJ requirements.


Am I missing anything? Do we need some sort of proof for #2?

CHS
06-24-2009, 7:25 PM
I've also just signed the affadavit that says you have an approved safe or locked container and not had to deal with the separate lock issue.

That will not satisfy federal requirements for a lock for handgun transfers.

ke6guj
06-24-2009, 7:26 PM
I've also just signed the affadavit that says you have an approved safe or locked container and not had to deal with the separate lock issue.

for a long gun or a handgun transfer? In the last year or so?

Librarian
06-24-2009, 8:24 PM
Because BATFE says that does not comply with the law.

The law requires the lock to be furnished to the handgun purchaser. Not the other way around.

I don't think so - here's why:

'Provided' does not necessarily mean 'given to' or 'sold to', it can also mean 'has'.

And the safety device as defined in 18 USC 921(a)(34) can be any of the listed items:(34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;
(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is
designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or
(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.


If I choose the safe or gun safe - and I can, because the definition says any of A, B, or C satisfies the law - it is unreasonable to assume that the seller must also give me or sell me a safe with each purchase.

Of course, the BATFE is not known for its expansive and generous reasoning.

jlh95811
06-24-2009, 10:57 PM
I ask because I went to Gun Room in Elk Grove to do a PPT for a sig. The seller had the original lock in the box. They still argued with me and said I need to buy a lock. Otherwise they won't release it. I'm looking for some solid evidence to present to them. I figure if I have that I can threaten to call the police if they don't give me my property. I'm a jerk like that. :43:

CHS
06-24-2009, 11:53 PM
I ask because I went to Gun Room in Elk Grove to do a PPT for a sig. The seller had the original lock in the box. They still argued with me and said I need to buy a lock. Otherwise they won't release it. I'm looking for some solid evidence to present to them. I figure if I have that I can threaten to call the police if they don't give me my property. I'm a jerk like that. :43:

You don't technically need to buy a lock since one was supplied, but there does have to be proof of the lock. Have the seller write you out a receipt that's dated and states that he sold or gave you a lock. Include the make/model of the lock to satisfy CA law and you're good. I've accepted quite a few of these for some of my customers.

If you threaten to call the cops, then you become the douche-bag.

There has to be a receipt dated within 30 days of the transfer. Period.

jlh95811
06-25-2009, 1:03 AM
You don't technically need to buy a lock since one was supplied, but there does have to be proof of the lock. Have the seller write you out a receipt that's dated and states that he sold or gave you a lock. Include the make/model of the lock to satisfy CA law and you're good. I've accepted quite a few of these for some of my customers.

If you threaten to call the cops, then you become the douche-bag.

There has to be a receipt dated within 30 days of the transfer. Period.


So a hand written receipt would suffice?
I won't bother the seller after the fact but it would be awesome for future reference. Can you help me out with some proof that it will be sufficient?

Not doubting you but it still seems odd that two other ffls do not require anything more than the lock that comes with the gun.

tenpercentfirearms
06-25-2009, 9:04 AM
I ask because I went to Gun Room in Elk Grove to do a PPT for a sig. The seller had the original lock in the box. They still argued with me and said I need to buy a lock. Otherwise they won't release it. I'm looking for some solid evidence to present to them. I figure if I have that I can threaten to call the police if they don't give me my property. I'm a jerk like that. :43:

Simply ask them if they make their customers buy a lock for any of the Glock, Springfield Armory, or Smith & Wesson handguns that are in their rack. If they say no, then ask them why not since the lock comes with the firearm? Simply tell them the lock comes with the firearm as supplied by the seller just as their new handguns come with a lock supplied by the seller. Then tell them to simply write down the lock information the DROS form like they normally do and that if they don't make you waste your money on a lock when it is completely unecessary, you will appreciate it and spend that money in the store on other items and you will continue to return to do so. Inform them if they still force you to buy the lock, out of principle, you will not return and will inform your friends of the same. Remind them that you want a good FFL that helps you avoid government red tape and unecessary expense and you will continue to use that FFL. Otherwise, your needs are not being met and you will go elsewhere.

CHS
06-25-2009, 9:06 AM
So a hand written receipt would suffice?
I won't bother the seller after the fact but it would be awesome for future reference. Can you help me out with some proof that it will be sufficient?


I accept hand-written lock receipts all the time :) I just make a copy and it goes into the 4473 with the other paperwork.


Not doubting you but it still seems odd that two other ffls do not require anything more than the lock that comes with the gun.

There are two requirements here, CA law and Federal law. Federal law doesn't require any proof or anything, just that a lock is provided with the gun. CA law says if there's a lock, then there has to be a receipt dated within 30 days. You don't have to PAY for the lock, you just need a receipt that a lock changed hands and it has to be a CA-approved lock. CA law will also accept the safe affidavit form.


The bigger question is, if there is no law requiring you to actually USE the lock (And there isn't), why on earth do the locks have to be California-approved?!!?!

tenpercentfirearms
06-25-2009, 9:09 AM
The bigger question is, if there is no law requiring you to actually USE the lock (And there isn't), why on earth do the locks have to be California-approved?!!?!Is that a vent or a serious question? The Penal Code is the serious answer and the vent response is we all know these complicated laws are designed to discourage sales, and most certainly not for actual safety.

CHS
06-25-2009, 10:35 AM
Is that a vent or a serious question? The Penal Code is the serious answer and the vent response is we all know these complicated laws are designed to discourage sales, and most certainly not for actual safety.

It's mostly a vent, but also slightly serious. :)

SVT-40
06-25-2009, 12:12 PM
So a hand written receipt would suffice?
I won't bother the seller after the fact but it would be awesome for future reference. Can you help me out with some proof that it will be sufficient?

Not doubting you but it still seems odd that two other ffls do not require anything more than the lock that comes with the gun.

At a BATFE and DOJ seminar last year the question of hand written "receipts" was asked. For what ever reason BATFE said "no" on handwritten receipts that they did not comply.

They also said in no way can the purchaser furnish the lock to the FFL to meet the requirement.

They did say a lock that came with the handgun did comply. This covered both new sales as well as PPT's.

So if you do a PPT be sure it has a lock (preferably already locked on to it) before you enter the store.

DeLaSeoulRZN
06-25-2009, 12:51 PM
I've bought quite a bit in the last 3 months so bare with me, but I am pretty sure it's both. Just counting the 'handgun' cable locks in my safe and I definitely don't have enough to match up to the number of recently purchased pistols as the brands should match up. I'm short 2 locks, which includes one I gave away as part of a long gun purchase.

In one specific instance, I remember the FFL requiring the other guy purchase a lock as he forgot to bring one, but I simply signed the affadavit and was cleared.

Perhaps someone can verify having the same experience?


for a long gun or a handgun transfer? In the last year or so?