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View Full Version : Hi Cap Rebuild kits? Someone school me plz...


TitanCi
06-23-2009, 12:21 AM
So I'm searching the classifieds and come across someone selling their pistol with hi cap magazines that are "rebuild kits". So I do a little search and find some info on ar-15.com that states one can have a hi cap. mag shipped into CA as a "rebuild kit"? So what I get out of this is it's a way around the 10 rd. magazine law? I don't get it? So if I had an AR15 and I bought these rebuild kits, I can have a 30 rd "rebuilt" magazine? or if i wanted to make a hi cap mag for my pistol I can "rebuild" a magazine by simply buying disassembled hi-cap kits?


Please inform me on this as I am very curious to know what this is all about... :confused:

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 12:38 AM
Eh, the high capacity rebuild kit thing goes as follows.
They are intended to be replacement parts for YOUR EXISTING and LEGALLY owned high capacity magazines. Meaning those that you owned BEFORE the ban on importation, assembly, distribution, etc.
If you did not own high capacity magazines before then ban then it is ILLEGAL to assemble them in the state.
Now, here is the fun part, you could technically rebuild all of a high capacity magazine with rebuild kit parts. Meaning, you coule rebuild your broken USGI 30 round magazine with a 30 round Magpul PMag. While this may not be advised, you could do it.
As well, there are guns that were made after the ban, so for you to claim ownership of high capacity magazines before the ban was enacted would just be dumb. For example, I cannot run around with a 15 round Springfield XD magazine as the XD came out after the ban was enacted.

For legal purposes, I do not condone of importing any rebuild kits with the intent to assemble them in state and manufacture a high capacity magazine.

SarcoBlaster
06-23-2009, 12:39 AM
No, rebuild kits are not a way around the 10 round magazine law. They are only to be used to repair damaged magazines that were owned before January 1, 2000 and/or permanently modify so that they hold no more than 10 rounds (10/20, 10/30 magazines).

oaklander
06-23-2009, 12:39 AM
You can't use rebuild kits to make new magazines. You can use them to rebuild existing hicap mags. You can use them to build 10 round mags. You can assemble them OUT OF STATE - but you can't assemble them here.

oaklander
06-23-2009, 12:40 AM
This is wrong. It's not the "inserting" that is illegal - it's the "assembling" that is illegal.

You can't legally purchase or sell a hi-cap mag in California, unless you're a LEO. You can, however, purchase and sell "high capacity magazine rebuild kits," that are extremely simple to assemble. Once you assemble them, however, you can not legally insert the magazine into the weapon. But what you do with them once they are assembled, is ALL on you. (So if you're caught with a hi-cap magazine in your weapon and you're not a LEO, it's basically a felony.) Clear things up?... And yeah, what he said ^^.

MallNinja
06-23-2009, 12:40 AM
Unless you already own pre-ban magazines, the rebuild kit wouldn't be of any use to you. It would be illegal for someone to build a hi-cap mag with a rebuild kit. The rebuild kits are available for people that need to do just that, rebuild their legally owned hi-cap mag.

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 12:41 AM
You can't legally purchase or sell a hi-cap mag in California, unless you're a LEO. You can, however, purchase and sell "high capacity magazine rebuild kits," that are extremely simple to assemble. Once you assemble them, however, you can not legally insert the magazine into the weapon. But what you do with them once they are assembled, is ALL on you. (So if you're caught with a hi-cap magazine in your weapon and you're not a LEO, it's basically a felony.) Clear things up?... And yeah, what he said ^^.

In my interpretation of the law, the act of manufacturing the high capacity magazine would be the big booboo, the inserting and use is just all extra juju to be tacked onto the manufacturing charge.

SarcoBlaster
06-23-2009, 12:43 AM
You can't legally purchase or sell a hi-cap mag in California, unless you're a LEO. You can, however, purchase and sell "high capacity magazine rebuild kits," that are extremely simple to assemble. Once you assemble them, however, you can not legally insert the magazine into the weapon. But what you do with them once they are assembled, is ALL on you. (So if you're caught with a hi-cap magazine in your weapon and you're not a LEO, it's basically a felony.) Clear things up?... And yeah, what he said ^^.
Read and comprehend the pertinent sections of the Penal Code before posting misinformation that could possibly lead to a felony arrest and conviction. Clear things up?

lorax3
06-23-2009, 12:45 AM
In CA it is illegal to manufacture, cause to be
manufactured, import into the state, keep for sale, or offer or
expose for sale, or give and any magazine with the capacity to hold more then ten rounds. You can however import "repair kits". Or large-capacity magazines that have been disassembled before entering the state or before being sold in the state. You cannot assemble these magazines once you obtain them, as that would be "manufacture". You can however use parts from the repair kits to repair your existing pre-ban large-capacity magazines.

Example: I have a pre-ban 30rd AK47 magazine. The magazine body breaks. I order a 30rd Pmag repair kit. I use the Pmag magazine body to replace my broken AK47 magazine body.

So in theory there could be a situation in which I had post-ban and pre-ban parts on a originally pre-ban magazine and still be legal. There is also a situation where I repaired all of the pre-ban parts at different times and none of the original parts are present.

Both situations are legal, and have DOJ letters to back them up.

If you did not have pre-ban large-capacity magazines before 1/1/2000 you should not have them now.

You mentioned an Ar-15, remember it is illegal to have any magazine larger than ten rounds in a fixed magazine or bullet button built, no matter if the mags were pre-ban or not.

PLEASE READ THIS LINK FOR MORE INFO
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124709&highlight=large-capacity)

Please do not rebuild your "repair kits" into new large capacity magazines as "Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison". It is not worth the jail time.

12020(a)(2)Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

aplinker
06-23-2009, 12:46 AM
In my interpretation of the law, the act of manufacturing the high capacity magazine would be the big booboo, the inserting and use is just all extra juju to be tacked onto the manufacturing charge.

There's nothing that can be added to the manufacturing charge.

The only prohibited acts are: selling, giving, importing or manufacturing.

Use, possession, self-pleasuring or any other use of a magazine is not prohibited.

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 12:48 AM
There's nothing that can be added to the manufacturing charge.

The only prohibited acts are: selling, giving, importing or manufacturing.

Use, possession, self-pleasuring or any other use of a magazine is not prohibited.

Rgr that. Did not know if there were tack on charges akin to committing a felony while wearing body armor.

mlatino
06-23-2009, 1:11 AM
I stand corrected. "Rebuilding" these into hi-cap mags (Even in the comfort of your own home and NOT for public use) is indeed a felony. Thanks for the heads up.

CABilly
06-23-2009, 4:11 AM
There's nothing that can be added to the manufacturing charge.

The only prohibited acts are: selling, giving, importing or manufacturing.

Use, possession, self-pleasuring or any other use of a magazine is not prohibited.

Purchase? I had a guy offer to sell me a hi-cap mag once. I hesitated, but further study of the law leads me to believe that buying one is not explicitly prohibited.

B Strong
06-23-2009, 6:00 AM
So I'm searching the classifieds and come across someone selling their pistol with hi cap magazines that are "rebuild kits". So I do a little search and find some info on ar-15.com that states one can have a hi cap. mag shipped into CA as a "rebuild kit"? So what I get out of this is it's a way around the 10 rd. magazine law? I don't get it? So if I had an AR15 and I bought these rebuild kits, I can have a 30 rd "rebuilt" magazine? or if i wanted to make a hi cap mag for my pistol I can "rebuild" a magazine by simply buying disassembled hi-cap kits?


Please inform me on this as I am very curious to know what this is all about... :confused:

You must have hi-caps to rebuild in the first place, or you're playing with fire legally.

My advice is to stay with 10 rounders if that's what you have, but if you have pre-2000 high-caps buy all the rebuild kits you can afford.

lorax3
06-23-2009, 6:08 AM
Purchase? I had a guy offer to sell me a hi-cap mag once. I hesitated, but further study of the law leads me to believe that buying one is not explicitly prohibited.

Although "purchase" is not expressly prohibited by law, we have senior members here who insist that it is difficult to one have only party guilty in a criminal transaction.

dwchkypmp20
06-23-2009, 6:31 AM
just out of curiosity, how is one to know whether or not you have owned your hi-cap since pre-ban? NOOB QUESTION

B Strong
06-23-2009, 7:01 AM
just out of curiosity, how is one to know whether or not you have owned your hi-cap since pre-ban? NOOB QUESTION

Did you own the firearm the high-cap mags are for, before 2000?

Are you able to show that you are a serious shooter/competitor before 2000 that owned high-caps for many different rifles/handguns?

Were you of legal age to own firearms before 2000?

Did you reside in California before 2000?

Was the firearm in question in production and sold to the public before the year 2000?

Was the high-cap mag in question in production and sold to the public before the year 2000?

These are all questions that might be looked into by an investigator.

My advice, as I stated earlier in this thread, is to steer clear of rebuild kits if you're not in possession of high-caps to rebuil;d.

TitanCi
06-23-2009, 7:06 AM
thanks for the clarification!

aplinker
06-23-2009, 7:25 AM
Did you own the firearm the high-cap mags are for, before 2000?
irrelevant

Are you able to show that you are a serious shooter/competitor before 2000 that owned high-caps for many different rifles/handguns?
irrelevant

Were you of legal age to own firearms before 2000?
irrelevant

Did you reside in California before 2000?
very relevant

Was the firearm in question in production and sold to the public before the year 2000?
in many cases completely irrelevant - magazines are interchangeable

Was the high-cap mag in question in production and sold to the public before the year 2000?
irrelevant - for example, you can rebuild old GI aluminum mags into PMAGs

These are all questions that might be looked into by an investigator.

My advice, as I stated earlier in this thread, is to steer clear of rebuild kits if you're not in possession of high-caps to rebuil;d.

Most of those are not proof of a crime.

There's no way for them to prove anything unless you talk yourself into jail.

1064chubbs
06-23-2009, 8:21 AM
Unless you already own pre-ban magazines, the rebuild kit wouldn't be of any use to you. It would be illegal for someone to build a hi-cap mag with a rebuild kit. The rebuild kits are available for people that need to do just that, rebuild their legally owned hi-cap mag.

Not true. I, for example, have mag "kits" that are dissassembled while in CA but when I go shooting with my freinds that live in AZ I assemble it an use my magazine outside of CA.

B Strong
06-23-2009, 8:31 AM
Most of those are not proof of a crime.

There's no way for them to prove anything unless you talk yourself into jail.

You're right, those questions (except for residency) are irrelevant, but they are the questions an investigator will look into in the unlikely event that high-caps become an issue in an individual case.

I know of one high-cap case - pot grower, pipe bomb, MAK-90 with a drum and 30 rounders, guy moved into California post 2000.

The best course of action is always to let your lawyer do your talking for you, but circumstances (current 21 YO with featureless AR with high-caps) may force an individual into a position where high caps are an issue that is a problem.

lorax3
06-23-2009, 8:35 AM
(current 21 YO with featureless AR with high-caps) may force an individual into a position where high caps are an issue that is a problem.

Why would a 21 year old with a featureless AR and high-caps be an issue? There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is not a featureless fixed mag build.

B Strong
06-23-2009, 8:57 AM
Why would a 21 year old with a featureless AR and high-caps be an issue? There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is not a featureless fixed mag build.

How does a 21 yo in 2009 have pre-2000 high caps? that's the question.

lorax3
06-23-2009, 9:02 AM
How does a 21 yo in 2009 have pre-2000 high caps? that's the question.

I fail to see why he wouldn't. There is no legal age to buy magazines. A ten year old can buy magazines, you could have been given magazines before the ban, even if you were under 18.

The only age issue I would see is if you were born after the ban, but even that is defendable.

evidens83
06-23-2009, 9:04 AM
Theres no penalty for "finding" hi-cap mags are there? From what I've read, this is a loophole correct?

B Strong
06-23-2009, 4:49 PM
I fail to see why he wouldn't. There is no legal age to buy magazines. A ten year old can buy magazines, you could have been given magazines before the ban, even if you were under 18.

The only age issue I would see is if you were born after the ban, but even that is defendable.

That's where you let your attorney do the talking, but at point of contact, depending the situation, an individual officer might make that "let the judge decide" arrest.

There's a thread just posted up here about a guy OC'ing that was almost arrested for having loaded mags, even when there is no such law on the books.

You can't always depend on the kindness of strange men with badges.

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 6:47 PM
That's where you let your attorney do the talking, but at point of contact, depending the situation, an individual officer might make that "let the judge decide" arrest.

There's a thread just posted up here about a guy OC'ing that was almost arrested for having loaded mags, even when there is no such law on the books.

You can't always depend on the kindness of strange men with badges.

You can depend on a good lawyer taking the unkindness of men with badges to court and getting you some restitution, or at least an education to the entire men with badges community.


To add on, can you receive high capacity magazines as gifts from your immediate parents?

TitanCi
06-23-2009, 7:10 PM
Wow. what a discussion! So school me on this (as this is just a theoretical question). what IF an LEO bought and gave someone high cap. mags - still illegal? would the person who received the hi cap. mags as "gifts" be at fault (too)? I do know LEO, and NO I DO NOT HAVE ANY HI CAP magazines...AT ALL. This comes about because of the for sale thread I came across. So what about this situation? and no I don't plan on owning any hi cap mags. :)

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 7:16 PM
Transfer is illegal I believe. Now if he tossed them in the trash and you found them before trash day, then you would be good to go.
Again, I do not endorse this as it could be construed as transfer of a high capacity magazine. Just posing hypothetical theories.

TitanCi
06-23-2009, 7:26 PM
Transfer is illegal I believe. Now if he tossed them in the trash and you found them before trash day, then you would be good to go.
Again, I do not endorse this as it could be construed as transfer of a high capacity magazine. Just posing hypothetical theories.

get out of here! really? I don't believe you. someone else humor me!!! :D

lorax3
06-23-2009, 8:29 PM
That's where you let your attorney do the talking, but at point of contact, depending the situation, an individual officer might make that "let the judge decide" arrest.

There's a thread just posted up here about a guy OC'ing that was almost arrested for having loaded mags, even when there is no such law on the books.

You can't always depend on the kindness of strange men with badges.

There has been arrests involving large-capacity magazines, however DA's quickly realize that there is nothing to charge the person with and charges are dropped.

The man you speak of was almost arrested because the arresting officer's did not know the law. Once the situation escalated and the incident was called into HQ he was released as the officers realized he was not in violation of any statues.


get out of here! really? I don't believe you. someone else humor me!!! :D

Take a look at this thread
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124709&highlight=large-cap)

TitanCi
06-23-2009, 8:43 PM
Take a look at this thread
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124709&highlight=large-cap)

AIYA. This thing is so "GRAY". I am not seeing a clear black and white distinction. I really don't get it. So I myself have a P226...someone correct me since I'll probably get this wrong...I cannot legally buy hi cap mags. But if I somehow "find" (i.e. on the street, left in my home by a vistor, in my trash, in my shoe, with my laundry... etc) a hi cap magazine that was made for P226, then I can somehow legally have it? It seems so contradictory? :confused: I'm sure this was discussed in some detail in the thread above, but I am not flipping thru 40 pages of posts! Again, someone just break it down in layman's terms: clear cut, black and white. No gray areas! This forum is GREAT!

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 8:52 PM
It is definitely in black and white.
It is legal to posses and use high capacity magazines on properly configured weapons (if necessary) as long as you had them prior to 1/1/2000.
It is illegal to manufacture them from rebuild kits unless you owned them prior to 1/1/2000.
It is illegal to buy or transfer them in state if you are not a LEO.
It is illegal to buy them out of state and bring them in state.
Whatever else you take from it all is however you take it, but to my knowledge there has not been a single successful conviction of a high capacity magazine case as the law is indeed very poorly written.
But then again we are in California, land of the laws that do not make sense.

TitanCi
06-23-2009, 9:00 PM
It is definitely in black and white.
It is legal to posses and use high capacity magazines on properly configured weapons (if necessary) as long as you had them prior to 1/1/2000.
It is illegal to manufacture them from rebuild kits unless you owned them prior to 1/1/2000.
It is illegal to buy or transfer them in state if you are not a LEO.
It is illegal to buy them out of state and bring them in state.
Whatever else you take from it all is however you take it, but to my knowledge there has not been a single successful conviction of a high capacity magazine case as the law is indeed very poorly written.
But then again we are in California, land of the laws that do not make sense.

I'm about to throw up. :ack2:
So are hi cap mags marked with dates now (forgive the ignorance - I have no clue as I do not own any)? If not, then how will anyone EVER know if I owned the damn thing prior to jan 1 2000 or not?

ajaffe
06-23-2009, 9:11 PM
No and technically no.
I do not believe there to be any date stamps on any magazines I have owned.
I mean there are some clues like magazines for certain guns that are not interchangeable and that were only produced after the ban, like the Springfield XD series or the M&P line. So having those would tell the powers that there would be really no way to have owned them prior to the ban as they were not even produced back then.
Another clue would be if you were born or were an extremely young rascal when the ban was enacted. (What 3 year old would be buying high capacity magazines?)
But even then, there could be ways to fight a case being brought against you.

Again, I do not condone using any methods mentioned in this thread to obtain high capacity magazines without having owned them prior to the 1/1/2000 ban.

TitanCi
06-23-2009, 9:23 PM
All great info! thanks! this was a cool discussion.

B Strong
06-24-2009, 6:04 AM
You can depend on a good lawyer taking the unkindness of men with badges to court and getting you some restitution, or at least an education to the entire men with badges community.


To add on, can you receive high capacity magazines as gifts from your immediate parents?

#1 - If arrested, you're going to be spending money out of pocket for a period of time, innocent or not. You may or may not get a lawyer to take a false arrest case on contingency, but it's guaranteed that you're going to be spending your own money in your defense up until the time charges are dropped. I know from personal experience in a non-firearms related case.

#2 - No exemption for inter-family gifting. It's still a transfer.

ajaffe
06-24-2009, 10:05 AM
Yeah I re-read the law and did not find any exemptions for that. Looks like the super young Calgunners are hosed. Luckily I was 13 at the time of the ban and had developed a love for pewpew devices.

Greg-Dawg
06-24-2009, 10:17 AM
Just buy as many 10 rounders as you can.

I'm working on my 25th Glock 10 round mags.

TitanCi
06-24-2009, 12:04 PM
Yeah I re-read the law and did not find any exemptions for that. Looks like the super young Calgunners are hosed. Luckily I was 13 at the time of the ban and had developed a love for pewpew devices.


ha ha! pew! pew!

apes
06-24-2009, 12:40 PM
Ok, how about this:
-If one owned a firearm and high cap mag prior to 1/1/2000
-If The firearm and Hi Cap Mag were in the state of Calif prior to 1/1/2000
-If however, the owner lived out of state until 2002 is the mag legal or illegal

-Ownership never transfered

lorax3
06-24-2009, 1:22 PM
Ok, how about this:
-If one owned a firearm and high cap mag prior to 1/1/2000
-If The firearm and Hi Cap Mag were in the state of Calif prior to 1/1/2000
-If however, the owner lived out of state until 2002 is the mag legal or illegal

-Ownership never transfered

One of the exemptions is
(23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who
lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to
January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning
to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully
possessed in the state.

So as long s you were in the state at one point prior to 1/1/2000 you are fine.

apes
06-24-2009, 5:16 PM
The firearm and mag lived in Calif continously from before 12/31/1999, it was just the owner who moved and then returned in 2002
still no change in ownership