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View Full Version : HK45 vs. Sig P220R vs. 1911.


mwt1980
06-22-2009, 10:50 AM
Which .45 do you prefer and why? I am looking for a tactical gun that will still be extremely accurate for target work.

cineski
06-22-2009, 11:24 AM
Without a doubt HK45. Without spending too much time: SIG 220's have a shaky track record for reliability with the modern internal extractored 220's having FTF issues and issues with the takedown lever breaking. In terms of the German made 220's vs. the modern 220's with external extractors, those are great guns, but not as good as the HK45. The German made 220's just feel more fragile, and the modern ones may be good but I have a strong preference for the HK after owning 4 220's. 1911's are a platform that you must dedicate yourself to, and I would venture to say, although I don't have personal experience with this, an HK45 will stand up to most harsh environments better than the 1911. Plus you get 2 more rounds in the mag without that stupid extension the 220 or 1911 requires to get it. The HK45 is extremely accurate, reliable and durable. MUCH faster mag swaps. Apparently the new US made (assembled with German made parts) HK45's will be shipped with true night sights. I will say, the HK trigger isn't nearly as good as a 1911 trigger, and the 220 is only marginally better than the HK45.

snaggletooth
06-22-2009, 11:29 AM
How do you like your HK45 compared to the USP? You say you don't have experience with the HK45 with extreme conditions, I was wondering what were your experiences with the 1911 in extreme conditions? I'm just curious because my brother just got a HK45 and he always brags about how much better it is than my Les Baer.

Josh
06-22-2009, 11:34 AM
having used all of them i would say its all about the same.

you can get a more personalized gun with the 1911, but since so many people build a 1911 its also more likely to get a lemon.

I have never had an issue with a P220 and they are not fragile. However with sig putting out so many guns lately their QC has slipped on the new stuff. Try to find an older one.

The HK45 is nice if you can get one in this state but i dont personally think its work the extra cost and effort if you need to find one and pay a premium just because its not on the roster.

If you want the most accuracy then the 1911 will give you the best chance at that but you will pay for it. And there is a big difference between a tactical gun and a target gun. Accuracy usually comes at the cost of reliability.

cineski
06-22-2009, 11:34 AM
I don't have any experience in extreme conditions with any gun ;-) Which was a hint to take that particular comment with a grain of salt. IMO, a Les Baer is a gun I'd want to take to the range. An HK45 is the gun I'd take into battle.

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 12:04 PM
You can also outshoot your ammo with, esp with built target pistols.

calidude
06-22-2009, 12:10 PM
For me, one strong factor in deciding between different models is pointabilty and ease of operation.

I like 1911 because most of them (the single stack ones anyways) tend to have a slimmer grip, so it fits better in my hand and makes it easier for me to acquire targets. Also, for me, the safety is easier to operate, but I'm sure the other models will work great after a few thousand rounds downrange.

Just my two cents...

Calidude

mwt1980
06-22-2009, 12:19 PM
Looks like the SIG isn't getting much love.... from what i hear... very accurate and reliable .45 out of box.

CAL.BAR
06-22-2009, 1:00 PM
Having used the 1911 and now my HK 45, I have to say HK45. More reliable (will even feed empty cartridges - try that with your sig) But the ergonomics is better and the old USP, more similar to the 1911. Built-n picatinny for tac lights laser etc. Overall, I do like the 1911 trigger better, but once you get used to the HK, I think it edges out the 1911.

HK45 (if you can get it)

sammy
06-22-2009, 3:03 PM
Having owned a Sig 220 and owning 3 1911's and a USP Expert all in .45 I would lean toward the USP if you must have a pistol that runs 99.99%. The Sig 220 has more felt recoil than the 1911 and the Expert has the least. The 1911 feels the best in hand by far, sweet trigger with a very short reset. The HK and Sig have a very nice single action trigger with a longer reset. This allows me to shoot the 1911 faster but I do like the idea of having more rounds with the HK. If you are in the Bay Area you are welcome to come out and shoot my guns to see what you like.

sb_pete
06-22-2009, 7:10 PM
Well, I own a USP Expert in .45 and have shot plenty of Sigs and 1911's and an HK45. My response is really to shoot all three and go with what you like best. Which one fits your hand best? Which one feels "right" when you shoot it. SA vs DAO vs SA/DA vs LEM, manual safety or no are all just training things. Whichever one feels right in your hand, you'll know as soon as you shoot a few rounds.

That said, if it were me, I'd go HK45.

Personally, I just have never had a thing for the Sigs. I don't really know why, but they're just not quite my thing. They don't become an extension of my hand the way 1911's, USP's, and the HK45 do. The Sigs I have seen have all been nice, very solidly built pistols though.

1911's are cool pistols. Obviously, they run the gamut from worn out old GI guns to cheap foreign made ones filled with MIM parts and crap to tricked out race guns and everything in between for your $400 to $4k plus. I have only recently started to really like them. A nice 1911 is a dam*ed nice weapon though. The fact that most of the more "high speed" military units still prefer them has to say something about their efficacy and reliability (at least in their non firing pin safety'd versions).

The HK45 is just an all around great pistol. I love my USP Expert, but the HK45 fits my hand better. The std sights suck, yes. That is easily remedied though. The std trigger is not a 1911 trigger, true. But neither is the Sig. With USP's you can send off the gun to have the EXCELLENT match trigger dropped in for about $200. I don't know if this works with the HK45 as the design, while based on a USP, has a thinner grip. The HK 45 retains most of the things that make the USP great, while ditching the overly large Ahhnold the Governator grip. While it does away with the cool recoil absorbing, double sprung guide rod, the new plastic one is FAR easier and cheaper to replace. This does away with HK's silly "it doesn't need to ever be replaced" BS on the USP recoil springs. Any pistol, including Glocks and USP's need an overhaul from time to time. True, it is a cheaper part and it is a plastic guide rod (gasp), but the USP recoil spring is more of a PITA to change than friggin apex seals on a rotary engine. Never mind that secondary spring, that I wouldn't even try. And replacement of the whole thing as a unit is prohibitively expensive. The HK45 does away with that and makes it a simple to replace part, even if it will need to be replaced (slightly) more often and won't absorb recoil as well. I just wish Crimson Trace made a laser grip insert for them...

-Pete

MIB
06-22-2009, 9:33 PM
having used all of them i would say its all about the same.

...
The HK45 is nice if you can get one in this state but i dont personally think its work the extra cost and effort if you need to find one and pay a premium just because its not on the roster.


Thanks Josh for badmouthing my gun ;)

MallNinja
06-22-2009, 9:38 PM
HK if you want unflinching reliability. Will feed and eject just about anything. A trigger job by http://www.triggerwork.net/usp.html and you won't miss a thing from a P220 or an average 1911. If precision and reliability are prerequisites, a factory stock USP Expert will also do the trick.

old-trapper
06-22-2009, 11:16 PM
i have had them all......HK45 hands down no conversation...5 shot groups all shots touching.

BlackViper
06-22-2009, 11:47 PM
HK45 or Glock 21?

Mississippi
06-23-2009, 12:15 AM
I sold my Kimber warrior because it had feeding issues. I bought a sig 220 combat and have only had 2 FTF ever. The sig 220 combat is what i would take to battle if I ever had to. But all the guns you ask about can be really great guns.

aplinker
06-23-2009, 12:53 AM
i have had them all......HK45 hands down no conversation...5 shot groups all shots touching.

There isn't a gun I own that can't do that at 15yds.

At 25yds I start to open up, so lord knows what the guns can do.

If I had to use a .45 for in the ****, I'd pick the HK45 or M&P45. That's probably just because I'd rather not get sand in my 1911s. :D

I'd much rather have a P226 or Glock.

sirgiles
06-23-2009, 1:12 AM
I don't have any experience in extreme conditions with any gun ;-) Which was a hint to take that particular comment with a grain of salt. IMO, a Les Baer is a gun I'd want to take to the range. An HK45 is the gun I'd take into battle.

totally agree.

Black Majik
06-23-2009, 11:59 AM
I'd probably go G21. It's plastic, it's black, it's tactical, and if you just want a good SHTF/TEOTWAWKI/INCH gun parts are extremely easy to swap.

Low maintenance, parts are dime a dozen, and detail stripping consists of a stick and common sense.

One Shot, One Dropped
06-23-2009, 12:53 PM
********HK45********

This really should be a poll, but having owned all three, I would 100% choose the HK45 (especially since you noted the word tactical) because:
1.) It has a higher magazine capacity than the 1911 (without using odd-looking 10rd 1911 mags)
2.) It has better ergonomics than the SIG P220R (subjective, but it's still adjustable)
3.) It has a de-cocking function which isn't available in the 1911
4.) It's German "and you know the Germans make good stuff" (Sham-WOW) :D
5.) It's very simple to disassemble for cleaning/maintenance
6.) It's reputed as being accurate just as the others are.

The only thing I wish is that it would take my old USP .45 mags so that I could take advantage of a couple more rounds. Not only does it not accept those, but the maximum magazine capacity (regardless of state) for the HK45 is 10 rounds. So, even if you moved out of state, you would still only have 10 rounds. I don't think that's much of an issue, though, because that's plenty (especially from an accurate .45).

******HK45********

MrClamperSir
06-23-2009, 1:17 PM
Which .45 do you prefer and why? I am looking for a tactical gun that will still be extremely accurate for target work.

I like the Sig because it's real accurate, comfortable and EASY to control. At least for me.

BunnySlayer
06-24-2009, 2:59 AM
This is all pretty much subjective as all three choices are great guns. I would add if you simply want to go factory stock. Either the H&K or Sig is a great choice. If you want to personalize it the 1911 is the way. For me personally nothing feels as good ergonomicaly as a 1911. Sig and HK both feel like rocks balance and trigger wise compared to a 1911. Of coarse many 1911's need work out of the box. As I've said before a 1911 is like a g string. The more money you put in it, the better it performs.

Blue Label
06-24-2009, 10:53 PM
This is all pretty much subjective as all three choices are great guns. I would add if you simply want to go factory stock. Either the H&K or Sig is a great choice. If you want to personalize it the 1911 is the way. For me personally nothing feels as good ergonomicaly as a 1911. Sig and HK both feel like rocks balance and trigger wise compared to a 1911. Of coarse many 1911's need work out of the box. As I've said before a 1911 is like a g string. The more money you put in it, the better it performs.

:iagree:

gadjeep
06-24-2009, 11:08 PM
I'll split the difference, I have a SIG 1911 TTT and I love it. I have also shot a P220 and liked it aside from the trigger feel. No experience with the HK. Good luck.

RT13
06-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Not a 1911 fan so that's out.

If I had to pick b/ an HK45 and a new P220 of any variance today, I would choose the HK in a heartbeat. Many Sigs especially the P220's being produced by the new Sig company are a hit and miss in terms of quality and reliability. However I would choose a P220ST from the years 2001-2003 over any HK45 in a heartbeat. The P220ST is a softer shooter and more fun to shoot. Both guns are tack drivers but I like all stainless P220ST and honestly think this is the best non 1911 .45 especially if you have some trigger and action work done.

MiguelS
06-25-2009, 7:08 AM
Have you decided???

Also, how does one know if you are buying a P220ST from the years 2001-2003.

kazman
06-25-2009, 8:22 AM
Anyone have experience with the HK45 COMPACT? Thinking about this when they become available here.

RolinThundr
06-25-2009, 9:16 PM
Anyone have experience with the HK45 COMPACT? Thinking about this when they become available here.

Are you referring to the HK USP compact in .45 ACP? If you are, then yes I have experience with it, first handgun I ever shot, wish I'd been able to buy it. Controls are in good positions, recoil isn't bad, great gun. I thought I saw the USP compact 45 on the roster.

kazman
06-25-2009, 9:35 PM
Are you referring to the HK USP compact in .45 ACP? If you are, then yes I have experience with it, first handgun I ever shot, wish I'd been able to buy it. Controls are in good positions, recoil isn't bad, great gun. I thought I saw the USP compact 45 on the roster.

No actually I was referring to the new compact version of the HK45. I don't believe either HK45 or HK45 Compact are approved yet in CA.
Described as having a slimline grip profile, which sounds like a fit (I like the single stack 1911 grip).

Mac Attack
06-25-2009, 10:07 PM
I haven't shot a HK45 but have shot plenty of USP's, Sig 220's and 1911's. My personal CCW is a full sized 1911 which I can shoot like no other handgun. A 1911 just feels like an extension of my hand and the balance and trigger make accurate shooting much easier than a DA/SA handgun. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing it was I was running out the door in a SHTF situation. But then again I am not some Special Operations operator and doubt I will ever need to drag my old *** through the mud or jungle. I am more of an urban jungle type of guy.

However, as much as I like the design of the 1911, it is a dated design. I'm not saying it is an obsolete design, it's just a gun from another century. As is the case with a lot of things in life, newer is often better. This isn't always the case but it happens more often than not. The HK was designed for the 21st century and looks like a great design and is priced less than a customized 1911. I never liked the feel of Sig's.

Don't rule out the 1911 so quickly because there are a lot of "People in the Know" who can choose from any handgun available anywhere in the world and many of them chose the 1911.

RT13
06-26-2009, 12:52 AM
Have you decided???

Also, how does one know if you are buying a .

I think I made myself clear about my choice.
Serial numbers.
Year made can also be estimated whether the pistol has a true picatinny rail or P220 Sport rail.