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Aircraftman
06-20-2009, 2:39 PM
Hello everyone and Happy Father's Day

I have a question I'm hoping someone can answer.

Over the last 12 months I've purchased 6 handguns off of Calguns. I've used 6 different gun shops all over the state for PPT and all have charged what I thought was the standard $35 fee.

Yesterday upon completing deal #6 after all paperwork was completed and cash had been handed over to the seller, the gun shop clerk handed me a bill for $100. When I questioned the amount she told me $35 was for DOS (???) and $70 was for registration fees. When I told her that added up to $105 she told me I was getting a discount (What?????????).

I told her, very nicely, that was wrong and wanted to speak to manager/owner. A older gentlemen then came out and said yes the PPT was $35 but the $70 was his fee for filling out and submitting the paperwork to DOJ.

I paid the bill (not wanted to make a scene and scuttle the deal) but not very happy over the turn of events.

I see this two ways:

1. Its his shop and he can charge anything he wants for doing a PPT. Shame on me for not checking before we started the process (a mistake I will not make again)

2. The state sets the PPT fee and shops are not allowed to charge extra therefore this guy ripped me off.

Please advise and if appropriate I will identify the shop so other Calguns will not get find themselves in the same predicament.

Thanks

Shane916
06-20-2009, 2:41 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d))

Joe
06-20-2009, 2:43 PM
What he did was illegal. There was a thread recently where a guy contacted the DOJ and was given a refund by the shop. Bring in the law when you go to pick up your handgun and show them what they're doing is illegal. If they refuse to give you your money back, contact the DOJ.

Casual Observer
06-20-2009, 2:49 PM
Please advise and if appropriate I will identify the shop so other Calguns will not get find themselves in the same predicament.

Thanks

It is appropriate. Please let us know who it is.

On a personal level, I agree with the owner in some ways. The time and effort it takes for a PPT is definitely worth more than the $10.

At the same time, the law says we only get $10.

The SoCal Gunner
06-20-2009, 3:43 PM
The time and effort it takes for a PPT is definitely worth more than the $10.

At the same time, the law says we only get $10.

Worth more than $10 probably but not $70. I've been to shops that have completed the work in 10 mins. Then there are those that take half an hour to an hour.

If you demand for the refund, which I would do but I really would have left and gone somewhere else, make sure you already picked up the gun and put it in your trunk.

ETA: Just to be sure, the seller didn't send the gun to your FFL did he? Name the shop please.

MiguelS
06-20-2009, 3:49 PM
How about some legislation to change the fee to $25 for them. ;)

I just did a transfer and thought $10 was nothing.

That is some legislation that makes sense.

Shane916
06-20-2009, 3:49 PM
ETA: Just to be sure, the seller didn't send the gun to your FFL did he?

+1. Did you met the seller at the store for the transfer or was the gun shipped to the dealer?

MiguelS
06-20-2009, 3:52 PM
+1. Did you met the seller at the store for the transfer or was the gun shipped to the dealer?

Yesterday upon completing deal #6 after all paperwork was completed and cash had been handed over to the seller

Sounds like the seller was present.

ke6guj
06-20-2009, 3:52 PM
How about some legislation to change the fee to $25 for them. ;)

I just did a transfer and thought $10 was nothing.

That is some legislation that makes sense.how bout some legislation to remove the requirement that we even need to do a PPT at a dealer? That would make more sense.

MiguelS
06-20-2009, 3:54 PM
how bout some legislation to remove the requirement that we even need to do a PPT at a dealer? That would make more sense.

I wouldn't trust just anyone from the street.

Shane916
06-20-2009, 3:55 PM
I wouldn't trust just anyone from the street.

I would :) Almost every state has no requirement for PPT's at dealers.

Aircraftman
06-20-2009, 4:48 PM
Thank you everyone for the great info.

I pick the gun up on June 30. Once the gun is in the car, I will start this discussion with them.

I will update the thread on the outcome and ID the gun shop at that point.

Hopefully I will have a happy ending to my story.

Best regards....:D

scootergmc
06-20-2009, 5:03 PM
I'd name the shop now. If this is your most recent purchase on this forum, the shop is probably in the North Bay. There could be a member/employee on this forum who could assist you in the meantime. You really need to raise the issue immediately.

Casual Observer
06-20-2009, 5:08 PM
Worth more than $10 probably but not $70. I've been to shops that have completed the work in 10 mins. Then there are those that take half an hour to an hour.

If you demand for the refund, which I would do but I really would have left and gone somewhere else, make sure you already picked up the gun and put it in your trunk.

ETA: Just to be sure, the seller didn't send the gun to your FFL did he? Name the shop please.

I agree. $70 is a little steep.

The paperwork is nothing. Most of the time, people who do PPT's here are in and out in 15 minutes provided they bring all their documentation with them. But there's also getting the weapon into the disposition, storage in the safe (space in which has been at a premium lately), and then reversing the process 10 days later with checking the weapon out.

hawk1
06-20-2009, 5:14 PM
How about some legislation to change the fee to $25 for them. ;)

I just did a transfer and thought $10 was nothing.

That is some legislation that makes sense.

How about you just give the guy more money on your own and not worry about 'legislation'. :rolleyes:

Part of the benefits of being allowed to sell guns in California is that they must do PPT's at the mandated rate.

walter
06-20-2009, 5:37 PM
Dude there's a place in mountain view called gun vault I think, they charge their ppt rates depending on how much you buy/sell the gun privately for...it says something like $100 up to $1000, 1000+ negotiable?

aplinker
06-20-2009, 5:37 PM
1.) Go into the shop with a copy of the DOJ short summary and the full law, highlighting where they can only charge $35 for a PPT.

2.) Ask nicely and firmly for a refund of your $70.

3.) When they refuse, call the DOJ (which you have saved on speed dial) and explain the situation.


I don't agree with forcing FFLs to handle PPTs (they should not be required). I don't think the fees cover the cost to do it, but since we must comply with the law on PPTs, they must, as well.

Ladyfox
06-20-2009, 5:42 PM
Dude there's a place in mountain view called gun vault I think, they charge their ppt rates depending on how much you buy/sell the gun privately for...it says something like $100 up to $1000, 1000+ negotiable?

That does not sound right. I did a PPT there no more than 2 weeks ago and payed the standard fee.

Do you have any information to back this up since this would be of importance to others here?

wildhawker
06-20-2009, 5:59 PM
Fixed it for you :rolleyes:

Worth more than $10 probably but not $70 to me.

wildhawker
06-20-2009, 6:01 PM
Dude there's a place in mountain view called gun vault I think, they charge their ppt rates depending on how much you buy/sell the gun privately for...it says something like $100 up to $1000, 1000+ negotiable?

I've done PPTs at BAGV w/ Gary and Eric and never have I been charged above $35.

Has what you described happened to you?

MiguelS
06-20-2009, 6:46 PM
How about you just give the guy more money on your own and not worry about 'legislation'. :rolleyes:

Part of the benefits of being allowed to sell guns in California is that they must do PPT's at the mandated rate.


Sarcasm on my side.

But I wonder how old is that law and have they ever thought about increasing it for inflation.

I believe the previous poster had valid points about storage and then the delivery as well.

-hanko
06-20-2009, 7:53 PM
how bout some legislation to remove the requirement that we even need to do a PPT at a dealer? That would make more sense.
I have heard that quite a few transfers never make it to the dealer.

-hanko

Aircraftman
06-21-2009, 9:56 AM
Iím reluctant to name the shop now. If they see my post it might make things harder for me on June 30, plus it might jeopardize me picking the gun up. Not sure what they could do, but I liked the advise of the other poster who advised I should get the gun safely locked in my car before forging ahead (don't want to tip them off that I'm coming at them), although I do want to warn other members to be wary of this guy.

Iíll say this; he is in NorCal, north of the GG Bridge and south of wine country. If you are considering a PPT in that area, PM me and it will ID the name of the shop.

Again after I get my gun I will give everyone a full report with all the details.

Regards

goathead
06-21-2009, 11:02 AM
rip off!!! badly

roc
06-21-2009, 12:06 PM
It is appropriate. Please let us know who it is.

On a personal level, I agree with the owner in some ways. The time and effort it takes for a PPT is definitely worth more than the $10.

At the same time, the law says we only get $10.

PPT is a service the FFLs are required to provide to the public in order for them to hold their licenses. The idea is they provide this service at a minimum cost to the public in order to be able to sell firearms since there is no alternative to do private firearm transfers.

Oldnoob
06-21-2009, 12:32 PM
Let's clear up one things here.

1)This PPT was done "face to face" right? Both buyer and seller are CA resident and presented in a FFL at the same time.

or

2)Is this PPT was done from out-of-state dealer or seller shipped the gun to your FFL?

If it's 1, dealer already committed a crime. But if it's 2, that is a high but dealer can charge whatever he like for storage fee.

hawk1
06-21-2009, 2:30 PM
Sarcasm on my side.

But I wonder how old is that law and have they ever thought about increasing it for inflation.

I believe the previous poster had valid points about storage and then the delivery as well.

The mandated PPT fee has been increased in the past.

A FFL cannot charge storage fees until after the 10 day period has elapsed. He must disclose his storage fees at time of DROS to transferee.

Instead of raising fees, how about getting rid of the whole system...

The SoCal Gunner
06-21-2009, 3:36 PM
Fixed it for you :rolleyes:

So you'd pay $70?

mrhappy
06-21-2009, 4:16 PM
This appears to be a problem throughout the state, dealers charging (or trying to charge) more than the mandated $35 fee. Perhaps it needs to be reinforced with FFL holders via some reminder. OP could also copy the page of the FAQ off the DOJ web site, since it clearly states the law.
As a former FFL holder, I agree that the fee is too low, but if FFL's want to change the law, perhaps THEY can petition DOJ to fix it.

MiguelS
06-21-2009, 4:32 PM
This appears to be a problem throughout the state, dealers charging (or trying to charge) more than the mandated $35 fee. Perhaps it needs to be reinforced with FFL holders via some reminder. OP could also copy the page of the FAQ off the DOJ web site, since it clearly states the law.
As a former FFL holder, I agree that the fee is too low, but if FFL's want to change the law, perhaps THEY can petition DOJ to fix it.

I would support such a thing. (probably a minority on this of course.)

elSquid
06-21-2009, 4:59 PM
I would support such a thing. (probably a minority on this of course.)

FLLs can complain about not making much money on a PPT, but individuals don't make much money either when they are the ones paying the $35. I'm sure FFLs would love to have PPTs be a profit centre for them; I'd love to be able transfer privately owned firearms... privately. And without cost.

If FFLs made 'decent' money off of PPTs we'd never get their support in changing the process.

-- Michael

ke6guj
06-21-2009, 5:07 PM
I would support such a thing. (probably a minority on this of course.)So you would support having to pay up to a 50% tax on an inexpensive firearm that I want to purchase? Or as the seller, knowing that my prospective purchaser may balk at having to pay those extra taxes and decide to purchase new instead? Nothing like taxing a constitutional right.

g17owner
06-21-2009, 5:07 PM
Tag for updates. If this is true i'd like to see the DOJ come down on them. If we must abide by the law FFL's should have to as well.

dfletcher
06-21-2009, 5:59 PM
Dude there's a place in mountain view called gun vault I think, they charge their ppt rates depending on how much you buy/sell the gun privately for...it says something like $100 up to $1000, 1000+ negotiable?

This sounds more like consignment or an out of state transfer, not a PPT. I've done PPTs there and although I wouldn't bet my life the charge was $35.00 I would bet my life it wasn't $100.00 to $1,000.00.

Aircraftman
06-21-2009, 6:59 PM
Let me state the facts again.

I met the seller right here on Calguns and agreed to meet at this shop due to it being close to his house.

We both met at the shop at the same time and he brought the gun into the shop at that time.

I clearly told the shop we needed to do a PPT. He is a CA resident as is I. The gun is used and not on the approved list so I assume a PPT would be the only way I could have purchased it.

The shop did not store the gun, the gun was not shipped, they did not perform any services other than filling out the required paperwork.

It was a straight PPT as I've done 5 other times after agreeing to buy the gun with a "I'll take it" post here on Calguns. The only difference was instead of $35 they charged me $100.

Thanks

scootergmc
06-21-2009, 7:04 PM
You are getting raped. Badly raped.

sirnonz
06-21-2009, 7:07 PM
what did the charges on the reciept show up as? ppts should be 35 dollars.

paul0660
06-21-2009, 7:21 PM
The shop did not store the gun

Except, the shop is indeed storing the gun now for ten days, correct?

PPT is a service the FFLs are required to provide to the public in order for them to hold their licenses. The idea is they provide this service at a minimum cost to the public in order to be able to sell firearms since there is no alternative to do private firearm transfers.

more clearly, the state requires that FFL's who sell handguns and longguns PPT them for $35, and those who sell only longguns, PPT them (but not handguns) for the same price.

WHY? For the simple reason that the government wants these guns registered. Raise the price, and there will be more back alley deals. Keep it as easy as possible, and more often than not the PPT will get done and the transfer registered. ALWAYS call before and ask specifically what the charge for a PPT is. If they mention extra charges or hours of operation for PPT, look somewhere else or expect to stir up something when trying to do it there. I don't envy FFL's......... I don't pity them either. $35 is the mandated price. Don't pay any more than that.

Aircraftman
06-21-2009, 7:34 PM
Yes the shop now has the gun for the 10 day waiting period, that is why I don't want to publicly name them yet until recieve the gun.


I did get a receipt it indicates the following:

DROS fee for used firearms $35
Transfer Fee $70
Misc Discount -$5
Subtotal $100
Sales Tax 0
Total $100

hill billy
06-21-2009, 7:34 PM
Protecting the shop in the name of not having a problem in ten days is dumb. They CANNOT give you an hassle beyond verbal. I would out the store and walk in TOMORROW and get my money back and if they gave me a single word of lip, I would take my money and then call DOJ to stick the knife in further. All this talk about whether it fair for FFL's is crap, all the laws here are crap, all of them. BUt FFL's are no less subject to them than ordinary citizens and if you or I tried something sideways like this we would end up in jail. This crap about it being fair needs to stop here. Life isn't fair, get a helmet. For heaven's sake, get your $70 back. Then kick this guy in his e-nuts. He knows the law and he's thumbing his nose at it.

BCgilbert this is not a jab at you but this is why you MUST be up on the law to buy or own a handgun here these days, because there are so many dumb laws you never know which one you're going to break.

dfletcher
06-21-2009, 7:41 PM
Yes the shop now has the gun for the 10 day waiting period, that is why I don't want to publicly name them yet until recieve the gun.


I did get a receipt it indicates the following:

DROS fee for used firearms $35
Transfer Fee $70
Misc Discount -$5
Subtotal $100
Sales Tax 0
Total $100

FWIW, I agree with not naming until you have the gun in hand. It's your gun, your aggravation - who knows what sort of annoyance they could send your way.

Any chance these guys just goofed and the left hand thought the right knew it was a PPT sort of thing? Are these guys (or someone there) new to the gun business?

Aircraftman
06-21-2009, 7:51 PM
Not sure about the gun store, never heard or dealt with them before, being located in an area of the BA that I don't frequent.

A young lady did the paperwork and she seemed to know what she was doing. The shop is small but well stocked with a good selection of handguns, long guns and ammo. The older guy was clearly the owner or manager and would not listen to my prior experiences.

Everything went off perfect until they handed me the bill for $100.:eek:

sirnonz
06-21-2009, 7:56 PM
buy 3

Aircraftman
06-21-2009, 8:08 PM
Hill Billy you are clearly much more experenced with this than me. I just started purchasing handguns last year and obviously don't have all the laws down like you.

I agree with you when dealing with something as serious as handgun ownership in our great state one should make sure of the laws, and I'm sure I know enough to keep myself on the right side of the law. This is a matter of fees charged and yes as another posted said "I got raped". I don't need the $65 but it is the principle of him breaking the law and ripping me off that has me ready to do battle up to and including contacting the DOJ and outing him on this site.

My one question to you: What would it hurt if I waited until the gun was safely in my car. Might he say the gun was stolen from his shop, the DOJ rejected my application (maybe he changes the serial number of the gun or my changes my drivers license number, etc). Maybe I'm being paranoid, but above all I want the gun on June 30.

I'm very open to guidence from the voices of experence, hence my original post.

Thanks

golfrj
06-21-2009, 8:11 PM
I too feel he is Cheating you (purposely) But if you feel safer waiting, then do that.. He is a licensed dealer like eveyone else and needs to be reminded of that.. I too am going to call DOJ on a So Ca dealer who refused to do a PPT today, saying he did Not do PPT's on weekends, only week days.. Now I know why the shop was so empty.. Good Luck with your refund, Jim:(

ps SAVE that receipt!!

JTROKS
06-21-2009, 8:27 PM
I too feel he is Cheating you (purposely) But if you feel safer waiting, then do that.. He is a licensed dealer like eveyone else and needs to be reminded of that.. I too am going to call DOJ on a So Ca dealer who refused to do a PPT today, saying he did Not do PPT's on weekends, only week days.. Now I know why the shop was so empty.. Good Luck with your refund, Jim:(

ps SAVE that receipt!!

Is it in black and white that an FFL holder/dealer in CA has to do PPTs? I'm sure some gunshops has the option to refuse a PPT during certain hours like one hour prior to closing time.

golfrj
06-21-2009, 8:35 PM
Is it in black and white that an FFL holder/dealer in CA has to do PPTs? I'm sure some gunshops has the option to refuse a PPT during certain hours like one hour prior to closing time.


I'm not real sure on that, the reference I saw said IF a dealer sold pistols he is required to do PPT's when requested, at a maximum of $35 in fees.. The folks at the DOJ take awhile to get back with you but they will eventually answer your questions.. Politely also...:D

Trader Jack
06-21-2009, 9:20 PM
I have never seen or heard a bigger bunch of cry babies then the children here on Cal Guns, Is it any wonder that some gun stores don't even want to do business with "Cal Gunners"
First the DOJ is not going to do more then lip service to your phone calls over $5, $10, $25 etc. The DOJ has a lot more important areas then that.
This is a free country (to a degree) and you are free to move on to another dealer. GET OVER IT.:chris:

scootergmc
06-21-2009, 9:22 PM
Give it a rest jack. You only come on this forum to defend FFLs overcharging, and cry about people crying. A look through your post history is quite telling.

thedrickel
06-21-2009, 9:30 PM
You got jacked. Get the gun in your trunk, walk back in and demand a refund.

I'm guessing it's Marin Firearms?

PS. See my sig

paul0660
06-21-2009, 9:31 PM
I'm sure some gunshops has the option to refuse a PPT during certain hours like one hour prior to closing time.

No, they don't. They have hours of operation, and that is that. Hopefully a customer would have the sensibility to not mess up the FFL's day with a late transaction.

Jack, you are funny. Say hi to you mom, Mrs. Off.

dfletcher
06-21-2009, 9:31 PM
Hill Billy you are clearly much more experenced with this than me. I just started purchasing handguns last year and obviously don't have all the laws down like you.

I agree with you when dealing with something as serious as handgun ownership in our great state one should make sure of the laws, and I'm sure I know enough to keep myself on the right side of the law. This is a matter of fees charged and yes as another posted said "I got raped". I don't need the $65 but it is the principle of him breaking the law and ripping me off that has me ready to do battle up to and including contacting the DOJ and outing him on this site.

My one question to you: What would it hurt if I waited until the gun was safely in my car. Might he say the gun was stolen from his shop, the DOJ rejected my application (maybe he changes the serial number of the gun or my changes my drivers license number, etc). Maybe I'm being paranoid, but above all I want the gun on June 30.

I'm very open to guidence from the voices of experence, hence my original post.

Thanks

Hurts nothing to wait and in fact, on another thread, I think one of our members contacted DOJ and they said to wait until pick up to confront the store owner.

My approach would be to pick up the gun. Once he delivers it to you, you're fine - he can't call DOJ or local LE and assert the gun is stolen, he can't in any way force you to return the gun. He can not have just "discovered" something about you - the state says you're OK, you're OK.

Once you have the gun, ask him to review the receipt with you line by line - because, well you're just the new guy & he's a pro, maybe you can learn something. Ask about that "misc -$5.00" credit to you, be nice to find out if you're special or does everyone get that credit. Because if everyone gets that credit (you'll say) you'd sure like to send your friends to his store.

Then focus on the "transfer" charge and after he gives you his initial explanation you better be able to quote chapter & verse on why he's wrong. Then tell him he has two choices - refund your money now or you and your receipt are off to DOJ.

If he won't talk to you, ask to talk to the lady who filled out the charges.

If you want to be a real pill, send him a demand letter then sue him in small claims court - this is mostly for the PITA factor, I suspect doing that costs more than you can get unless there's the ability to collect more than the extra fee cost.

wildhawker
06-21-2009, 11:45 PM
So you'd pay $70?

No, I always pay $35 for a PPT. I usually hand over some extra cash and take care of them after the PPT is over with if the service was good and the experience pleasant. Not every transaction, mind you, compells me to do this, but I try and make a point of building relationships.

I know what it's like to be in a fixed/mandated unit price contract. High volumes on low units suck.

They need to follow the law, but we shouldn't ignore the imbalance of the market and the lack of equity for $35 PPTs. We pay more for transfers- why not give them the difference and show them your appreciation?

g17owner
06-22-2009, 12:01 AM
I have never seen or heard a bigger bunch of cry babies then the children here on Cal Guns, Is it any wonder that some gun stores don't even want to do business with "Cal Gunners"
First the DOJ is not going to do more then lip service to your phone calls over $5, $10, $25 etc. The DOJ has a lot more important areas then that.
This is a free country (to a degree) and you are free to move on to another dealer. GET OVER IT.:chris:

WOW all i got to you is WOW. :rolleyes:

leelaw
06-22-2009, 12:03 AM
I see this two ways:

1. Its his shop and he can charge anything he wants for doing a PPT. Shame on me for not checking before we started the process (a mistake I will not make again)

2. The state sets the PPT fee and shops are not allowed to charge extra therefore this guy ripped me off.

1. It's his shop and he is mandated by law to accept PPTs, but also to charge n omore than $35 for the entire PPT. no extra fees.

2. It's not just being ripped off - he's committing a misdemeanor.

leelaw
06-22-2009, 12:05 AM
I have never seen or heard a bigger bunch of cry babies then the children here on Cal Guns, Is it any wonder that some gun stores don't even want to do business with "Cal Gunners"
First the DOJ is not going to do more then lip service to your phone calls over $5, $10, $25 etc. The DOJ has a lot more important areas then that.
This is a free country (to a degree) and you are free to move on to another dealer. GET OVER IT.:chris:

Somehow I knew you'd stop in here.

Are you so defensive about this because you're illegally charging for PPTs, too?

Now why would gun stores have a problem with servicing CGNers? Is it because these shops which you speak about don't like having informed customers who realize when a shop is trying to unlawfully charge them beyond their transfer rate maximum, per the penal code?

So I guess when you discover that someone is charging you for a service beyond what they are legally limited to, that makes you a "cry baby". What an interesting perspective of life.

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 12:09 AM
Hill Billy, this is foolish and shortsighted. Let him complete the transaction and manage his situation from a position of power (after he takes legal posession); he steps back into the store before 10 days and your steak just went back to the chef covered in A1 with a complaint that it was undercooked... how do you think that will go?

Yes, let's call DOJ on all stores, the cheating bastards they are. Someone everywhere has to be doing SOMETHING wrong!

Sometimes when people share a common interest the small stuff is best overlooked or addressed outside of school. I'm not advocating for support of an FFL breaking the law; I am advocating 1) consideration for the business loss PPTs incur 2) the FFLs role in supporting/maintaining our 1A and 2A rights (and hobby/sport) here in CA 3) toning down the chest-beating and taking a calm, rational approach in explaining the issue and law to the FFL and working together to find a mutually-agreeable resolution.

All the [over]emphasis on learning the law that keeps us from overpaying for a PPT is downright silly- how about all the laws that apply after you own the firearm and will keep you out of jail and drama-free?

Calling DOJ everytime this happens is assenine. Do you call CHP every time a vehicle you're travelling in as a passenger is speeding? Nope, and I bet you don't turn yourself in at the courthouse for all those infractions that didn't get caught either. You're right, it's not fair. It's life, we roll with the punches and make it work. It is, however, much easier to do when you haven't alienated everyone you need to work with you.

Protecting the shop in the name of not having a problem in ten days is dumb. They CANNOT give you an hassle beyond verbal. I would out the store and walk in TOMORROW and get my money back and if they gave me a single word of lip, I would take my money and then call DOJ to stick the knife in further. All this talk about whether it fair for FFL's is crap, all the laws here are crap, all of them. BUt FFL's are no less subject to them than ordinary citizens and if you or I tried something sideways like this we would end up in jail. This crap about it being fair needs to stop here. Life isn't fair, get a helmet. For heaven's sake, get your $70 back. Then kick this guy in his e-nuts. He knows the law and he's thumbing his nose at it.

BCgilbert this is not a jab at you but this is why you MUST be up on the law to buy or own a handgun here these days, because there are so many dumb laws you never know which one you're going to break.

Futurecollector
06-22-2009, 12:29 AM
I have never seen or heard a bigger bunch of cry babies then the children here on Cal Guns, Is it any wonder that some gun stores don't even want to do business with "Cal Gunners"
First the DOJ is not going to do more then lip service to your phone calls over $5, $10, $25 etc. The DOJ has a lot more important areas then that.
This is a free country (to a degree) and you are free to move on to another dealer. GET OVER IT.:chris:

whell if im a cry Baby for not wanting pay more than the legal limit then so be it, but the day legislation goes in that a gun stor can charge what ever they want on a PPT Is the day i will ONLY go to a shop that charges the "Old" fee of 35, and guess what I will ONLY shop at those stores,

and you better believe the DOJ will care about a shop commiting a misdemeanor, and you should believe that the DOJ will see that as a chance to check everything else out.

so yes I will complain at 5,10,15, or 1.00 if it was wrongfully taken from me, that is damn near the same thing as stealing from me,
and im sorry that some stores dont like to do business with us, just because we are well educated and wont take stupid crap from people/FFL's that want to cheat us,

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 12:41 AM
Well-educated, possibly. Shortsighted, definitely.

The LAWS are the target, ladies and gentlemen. Not us, not the FFLs. Keep your eye on the ball and let's get something done.

Wasting energy on a witchhunt for FFLs who overcharge for PPTs is a distraction and only serves to further the desired outcome of the antis. Use that energy to help the NRA, Calguns, CGF or maybe even offer help out at the shop a few minutes. When everyone is done freeing Gotham from evil FFLs, maybe we can get back to 2A activism?

whell if im a cry Baby for not wanting pay more than the legal limit then so be it, but the day legislation goes in that a gun stor can charge what ever they want on a PPT Is the day i will ONLY go to a shop that charges the "Old" fee of 35, and guess what I will ONLY shop at those stores,

and you better believe the DOJ will care about a shop commiting a misdemeanor, and you should believe that the DOJ will see that as a chance to check everything else out.

so yes I will complain at 5,10,15, or 1.00 if it was wrongfully taken from me, that is damn near the same thing as stealing from me,
and im sorry that some stores dont like to do business with us, just because we are well educated and wont take stupid crap from people/FFL's that want to cheat us,

g17owner
06-22-2009, 12:57 AM
Bottom line as another member here stated is he's committing a misdemeanor. Whether the $35 is too much or not enough is irrelevant. Whether the FFL wants to do PPT's or not is irrelevant. If he wants to sell then he has to abide by the laws that are set up for a FFL. This is one of them. The issue is he is committing a crime. Whether its a small one or a big one i don't care but the OP does as it is his money. So call to the DOJ and a refund are in order here. I cant fault the guy for wanting to recoup his $65 bucks. If the FFL doesn't know he's breaking the law then the DOJ will educate him so that he doesn't make the same mistake again. If the FFL is as unscrupulous in his PPT fee's i wonder how many other aspects of his business are run in the same nature. It is when someone of authority (like an FFL) breaks the law that it ruins the integrity and is counter-productive to the whole community and gives the 'anti's" more ammo to use against us. Law abiding citizens and FFL's need to mind their P's and Q's so that we are successful in our fight against the oppressive laws. But we wont be successful if we show that we cant play by the rules on either the citizens or dealers end.

elSquid
06-22-2009, 1:02 AM
Sometimes when people share a common interest the small stuff is best overlooked or addressed outside of school. I'm not advocating for support of an FFL breaking the law; I am advocating 1) consideration for the business loss PPTs incur 2) the FFLs role in supporting/maintaining our 1A and 2A rights (and hobby/sport) here in CA 3) toning down the chest-beating and taking a calm, rational approach in explaining the issue and law to the FFL and working together to find a mutually-agreeable resolution.

The mutually agreeable resolution in my mind is that both parties "suck it up" and follow the law.

Many stores in non-firearms related markets use a variety of mechanisms in order to drive traffic into stores in order to make sales. A good salesman knows that a captive, receptive audience is relatively easy to sell to. But you have to get your prospective buyers in front of you.

Folks that do PPTs, by definition, like and buy guns. A PPT is a sales opportunity for a store. A smart salesman will capitalize on that.

Heck, when I'm in a store waiting for paperwork to be completed I'm actually looking for other things to buy! It doesn't take much to engage me.

So while dealers may not make the kind of money that they would like to off of the PPT itself, the smart ones will look at it as a loss leader. It's a great way to start a long term relationship with a customer.

That said, if a person wants to tip an FFL of his own volition? I don't see a problem with that. However the FFL should have not have any expectation of that, nor should they add surprise fees after the customer has committed to the transaction.

-- Michael

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 1:09 AM
Bottom line as another member here stated is he's committing a misdemeanor. Whether the $35 is too much or not enough is irrelevant. Whether the FFL wants to do PPT's or not is irrelevant. If he wants to sell then he has to abide by the laws that are set up for a FFL. This is one of them. The issue is he is committing a crime. Whether its a small one or a big one i don't care but the OP does as it is his money. So call to the DOJ and a refund are in order here. I cant fault the guy for wanting to recoup his $65 bucks. If the FFL doesn't know he's breaking the law then the DOJ will educate him so that he doesn't make the same mistake again. If the FFL is as unscrupulous in his PPT fee's i wonder how many other aspects of his business are run in the same nature.

Should we begin targeting Calgunners (and non-CGNers, for that matter- let's make it a crusade) who may break a law with respect to their firearms, etc. and immediately turn them in without a second thought? I guess we have a lot of soapbox to stand on in here now, and I like the looks of the new glass walls...

You're right, I don't care about any other factors- these people are breaking the law and should go to jail. We should all absolutely make sure to have the DOJ hotline on our speed-dials from now on (not to mention at least disposable cameras, if not digicams for immediate upload, in our range bags- maybe even a video camera for the really bad ones. Just think, we could catch him talking!). Period. Small crime or big crime, I don't care- it's still a crime. Let's let the criminal justice system educate these idiots who break the law so they don't make the same mistake again. If the firearms owner is as unscrupulous in their handling of their weapons I wonder how many other aspects of his life (marriage? taxes? audits? YES!) are run in the same nature.

Someone grab me a bag of feathers and get the pot of tar on the fire. I have a few pitchforks in the back if anyone needs one.

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 1:14 AM
A reasonable take, although I would add that most stores do not have mandated unit pricing set by the government.

It is what it is for now; I can only hope the tables don't turn when FFLs can charge whatever they want if that day ever comes. They would be, eh, following the law. Turn and turn about.

The mutually agreeable resolution in my mind is that both parties "suck it up" and follow the law.

Many stores in non-firearms related markets use a variety of mechanisms in order to drive traffic into stores in order to make sales. A good salesman knows that a captive, receptive audience is relatively easy to sell to. But you have to get your prospective buyers in front of you.

Folks that do PPTs, by definition, like and buy guns. A PPT is a sales opportunity for a store. A smart salesman will capitalize on that.

Heck, when I'm in a store waiting for paperwork to be completed I'm actually looking for other things to buy! It doesn't take much to engage me.

So while dealers may not make the kind of money that they would like to off of the PPT itself, the smart ones will look at it as a loss leader. It's a great way to start a long term relationship with a customer.

That said, if a person wants to tip an FFL of his own volition? I don't see a problem with that. However the FFL should have not have any expectation of that, nor should they add surprise fees after the customer has committed to the transaction.

-- Michael

Agreed.

elSquid
06-22-2009, 1:21 AM
A reasonable take, although I would add that most stores do not have mandated unit pricing set by the government.


I would add that most people are not mandated by law to go to a retail establishment and pay a fee in order for said store to broker a transfer of used goods between private citizens.

-- Michael

g17owner
06-22-2009, 1:42 AM
Apparently you didnt understand what i was saying. Thanks for the opportunity for letting me clarify. I am saying dont give any anti-gun activist anymore fuel to add to use against us. If that means going through the appropriate channels to educate an FFL that is breaking the law then so be it. I never said jail time. A warning all the way to a fine works and works well. If you cant see how even this minor violation could have larger ramifications and effect all of us then you are the one being "shortsighted". For instance a situation like this could lead for a greater push for stricter laws being enacted. With your lets not go after each other lets go after the laws attitude while inspirational and fuzzy feeling isnt sound. I'm not advocating a witch hunt on FFL's or anyone for that matter i am saying everyone needs to be very careful and play by the rules. The rules being the law. Looking the other way on this or other gun issues at this critical time isnt going to get us the results we all desire and serves as an opportunity to undermine or call law abiding citizens or FFL's into question.

hill billy
06-22-2009, 4:40 AM
Bcgilbert, I would recommend doing what makes you comfortable. If that means waiting until the gun is safely in your possession and not calling DOJ, you should do that. I get a little hot at some of these things mainly because there is not much chance this guy is doing it out of ignorance for the law. Second, he is openly breaking the law. If all of us here decided to arbitrarily follow the laws we agreed with the CGF would be overwhelmed. None of us are happy about the current framework of laws, but we need to work within in that framework to change them, not just ignore them. Doing so gives the anti's more and more ammo against us. I would be polite to the owner(well, I wouldn't, but you should be :D) and if he tells you to buzz off, then I would get someone else involved. Good luck and pleae let us know how it works out.

MiguelS
06-22-2009, 8:26 AM
Is this allowed then as well???/

DROS (dealer record of sale) Fee $25
Dealer transfer fee $10
Storage & insurnace $15
Total $50



Any additinoal long gun transfer is $10 plus $15 storage and insurance.

Any additional handgun is $15 plus $15 storage and insurance.

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 8:48 AM
An argument can be made that the FFL has a right to reasonable fees for secure storage beyond the period considered in the PPT.

mike452
06-22-2009, 8:51 AM
Man! Dealers are working hard to find ways to charge more than the $35 fee. Storage and insurance for the required 10 days!?

Time is money my butt! I made $125/hr as a contractor.

We all should charge each other for idle time!

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 9:17 AM
Man! Dealers are working hard to find ways to charge more than the $35 fee. Storage and insurance for the required 10 days!?

Time is money my butt! I made $125/hr as a contractor.

We all should charge each other for idle time!

Businesses bill for inefficiencies all the time; in most cases, you (as the buyer/client) never know/see it (most are able to embed the costs into the sale's bottom line without facing such scrutiny as is prevalent with PPTs due to the commonly-known $35 cap). As a contractor, you should be intimately familiar with the concept.

golfrj
06-22-2009, 9:28 AM
Great Thread, I AM Impressed with ALL the opinions offered.. (Except Jack's)...

1064chubbs
06-22-2009, 9:41 AM
Great Thread, I AM Impressed with ALL the opinions offered.. (Except Jack's)...

Yeah, Jack as you can see just likes to thread crap most of the time. Dont take him to serious.

dfletcher
06-22-2009, 10:17 AM
Businesses bill for inefficiencies all the time; in most cases, you (as the buyer/client) never know/see it (most are able to embed the costs into the sale's bottom line without facing such scrutiny as is prevalent with PPTs due to the commonly-known $35 cap).

Agreed. I have to set contract prices for services for 1 to 5 year contracts. With all the variables it can be a challenge. Of course being able to set pricing means you have to know your cost, my bet is many gun stores really don't know the true cost regarding PPTs.

I don't think FFLs who charge more than allowed for PPTs are always being mercenary about it - I think they are for the most part making a "Hobson's Choice" decision that it's better to charge more to the person using the service than to raise prices on inventory or to take a loss. Problem is, that's not legal so the alternative is either treat it as a loss leader and teach your guys to sell to a captive PPT audience or, figure out your cost and distribute it among your inventory.

mrhappy
06-22-2009, 11:08 AM
Just to put another perspective, I just went to the local auto parts store to drop off drain oil. These store do not, and cannot, charge a fee for this service. They are required by law to accept used oil during normal business hours. The time it takes to do this service is free. Good auto parts store SALES PEOPLE use this as an opportunity to sell the propective CUSTOMER more oil, offer specials, etc. Bad salespeople complain that it is a waste of their precious time. Will I buy parts from a store that treats a mandated public service as a PITA? NO. Will I possibly be a loyal customer to a store that provides good customer service even for a "loss leader" type service as a previous poster mentioned? YES.

bohoki
06-22-2009, 11:22 AM
storage fees hmm that is a problem since a pistol or rifle takes up so much room

i have an idea how about the seller holds the gun till the 10 days are up

the buyer could even wait till the pick up time to pay the seller

Oldnoob
06-22-2009, 11:28 AM
I don't get all the people saying FFL should charge more for "their hard work" doing PPT. Have you ever seem a real professional gun shop clerk do PPT? It's done less then 15 min. And they don't cut corners neither. Paper work, copy IDs, finger prints, safety loading/unloading...etc.

For those in LA/OC area cal gunner, OC Indoor Range in Brea is a great place to shoot, shop, and PPT. I've try to do most my PPT there, they keep it clean and by the rules. $35 no BS, accept safe affidavits, 10 days on the mark.

And no, I don't work for them.

bigcalidave
06-22-2009, 11:36 AM
Obviously with the attitudes of many gun stores, especially the know it all bs that the ones who overcharge for ppt, there isn't much emphasis on good sales tactics. They can't use a loss leader if they can't capitalize on it. I really can't believe the *****ing about people getting upset that the stores are breaking the law ! They are regulated, to charge a set fee so that people can afford the transfers. While many of us here know better than to pay more than $35, there are some who are too timid to argue, or simply don't know. They are being taken advantage of and will have a bitter attitude to that shop when they learn of the overcharging! I'd like to see a sticky or even a warning on each firearm for sale thread here, pointing out that you should ASK how much the total will be for ppt at the store you go to, before beginning the transfer.
As to the OP, posting the name of the store here is not going to "hurt your chances" of getting the gun. The store owner would have a lot more problems by trying to cause issue with your purchase than he would by learning very quickly that what he is doing is wrong, and if he doesn't change he will lose business.
Storage fees are BS, especially within the 10 days. Charging an additional $70 is TOTAL BS, and they need to learn better. Just because they are from marin (as was I) and are typical marin *******s who think they can overcharge for everything, doesn't make them exempt. I'd use this as a great opportunity for a gun store to get a lot of phone calls advising them of the law. If you post it here, I'm sure you will get your refund and your gun on day 10, simply because the community here tends to make very good phone calls. Otherwise you may report it to the DOJ without giving the guy a fair chance to learn and be taught. :)
Tell us, let the problem be solved.

scobun
06-22-2009, 12:03 PM
An argument can be made that the FFL has a right to reasonable fees for secure storage beyond the period considered in the PPT.

No, it can't. The fee is a maximum of $35 for the transaction, no matter if it goes beyond 10 days. If the gun is not picked up in 30 days, they have to repeat the process and can get another ten bucks. While most laws are very vague, this one is crystal clear. If you charge more than $35 for a PPT, you have committed a misdemeanor.

I don't understand your logic. By your reasoning, I should be able to steal $70 from your wallet, and then lecture you on why you are overreacting if you call the police. This dealer is stealing, breaking the law, and I hope all of us here have no problem tossing criminals to the justice system. I think it says a lot about a person when they are willing to rationalize and defend criminal behavior, and there are a few people here who aren't shining a positive light on themselves. We don't get to take what we feel entitled to. That is the justification of a thief, burglar and pickpocket.

To the OP, after you pick up your gun, take in a copy of your receipt and demand a refund. Send a copy of the receipt to the DOJ no matter what the outcome, and hopefully one of these FFLs will finally get their license pulled. That would probably stop these silly games where dealers try to see how much they can rip off unsuspecting victims for. There are a lot of GREAT shops to work with out there and these scam artists won't be missed. The last time I did a PPT at J&R, I bought about $200 in accessories. They had me in and out in 20 minutes, great service, very nice shop, and I make sure and buy enough high margin items to make my visit worth it to them. If anything, these shops should be happy to do a PPT. It is a state mandated way to get more traffic into gun shops. You get paid $10 and get the chance to add to your customer base.

Casual Observer
06-22-2009, 12:26 PM
PPT is a service the FFLs are required to provide to the public in order for them to hold their licenses. The idea is they provide this service at a minimum cost to the public in order to be able to sell firearms since there is no alternative to do private firearm transfers.

I'm fully aware of WHY dealers are required to do PPT's and why the rate is low.

Doesn't change the fact that it is not enough to cover the cost to the FFL. For every PPT, the FFL is LOSING money which is something you want to avoid if you're running a business.

But, the law is the law, no matter how unfair it may seem (depending on your point of view).

MiguelS
06-22-2009, 12:31 PM
Wondering is the FFL is a supporting Vendor?

As a first time gun owner (well T-5), if the seller did not tell me it was $10+$25, I would have not known. I thought it will be the normal dealer FFL cost, which is set by the dealer. I talked to the CSR as well and they stated it was only $35 cash only. No Problem.

The end result was that I also bought a pistol from them 2 days later.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=195398

-M

Ezekiel2000
06-22-2009, 12:47 PM
Is this allowed then as well???/

The short answer is no, it is not.

scobun
06-22-2009, 12:58 PM
Doesn't change the fact that it is not enough to cover the cost to the FFL. For every PPT, the FFL is LOSING money which is something you want to avoid if you're running a business.

It is time to put this argument to rest. While FFLs feel like they should be getting more than $10, they are not losing money, and if they are smart, can use this as a chance to make a lot more money by building their customer base. It costs them $25 plus the cost of ink, they make ten bucks. Everything else is a fixed cost that they'd have to pay no matter if they did a PPT or didn't do one. It costs them no more to have another two bodies in their shop, they don't take on another employee, have to purchase special equipment, increase the money the spend on utilities, etc. The whole opportunity cost argument is bunk as well, because you can't say every customer who does a PPT only spends $35, and that every customer that waits while a PPT is handled would have spent hundreds of dollars if they weren't so inconvenienced to have to wait 20 minutes. They are actually getting the government to subsidize their advertising budget by forcing people to conduct transactions in gun shops.

I now head to Livermore to visit Doms and J&R instead of Kevin Smith in Martinez because Kevin charged me $45 for a PPT. That extra $10 has probably lost him at least $2500 in transfer fees alone. By charging more than $35, FFLs lose money. They do not lose money on a PPT at $35.

Lastly, if a FFL doesn't do PPTs, they don't get to have their license and can't sell guns. PPTs keep them in the good graces of the people they need to stay in good graces with if they like to do any business. It is much more expensive NOT do to a PPT, or to refuse a PPT. They don't have to spend any money and get foot traffic, and some have the business skills to not treat those customers like crap. If they had any sales skills, they'd be asking customers about what holster they'll be using, if they have snap caps, if they want any ammo, do they need cleaning supplies, do they want a gunsmith to check it out, etc.

Casual Observer
06-22-2009, 2:14 PM
It is time to put this argument to rest. While FFLs feel like they should be getting more than $10, they are not losing money, and if they are smart, can use this as a chance to make a lot more money by building their customer base. It costs them $25 plus the cost of ink, they make ten bucks. Everything else is a fixed cost that they'd have to pay no matter if they did a PPT or didn't do one. It costs them no more to have another two bodies in their shop, they don't take on another employee, have to purchase special equipment, increase the money the spend on utilities, etc. The whole opportunity cost argument is bunk as well, because you can't say every customer who does a PPT only spends $35, and that every customer that waits while a PPT is handled would have spent hundreds of dollars if they weren't so inconvenienced to have to wait 20 minutes. They are actually getting the government to subsidize their advertising budget by forcing people to conduct transactions in gun shops.

I now head to Livermore to visit Doms and J&R instead of Kevin Smith in Martinez because Kevin charged me $45 for a PPT. That extra $10 has probably lost him at least $2500 in transfer fees alone. By charging more than $35, FFLs lose money. They do not lose money on a PPT at $35.

Lastly, if a FFL doesn't do PPTs, they don't get to have their license and can't sell guns. PPTs keep them in the good graces of the people they need to stay in good graces with if they like to do any business. It is much more expensive NOT do to a PPT, or to refuse a PPT. They don't have to spend any money and get foot traffic, and some have the business skills to not treat those customers like crap. If they had any sales skills, they'd be asking customers about what holster they'll be using, if they have snap caps, if they want any ammo, do they need cleaning supplies, do they want a gunsmith to check it out, etc.

I agree with you on most points. Having a good PPT experience will bring customers (and therefore money) back into the store.

But if you're looking at the PPT itself, in a vacuum, then $10 is running pretty close between the black and the red. If both the buyer and the seller have all their documentation in order and ready to go to transfer 1 handgun....you're probably right. 10 minutes worth of paperwork, make a few photo-copies, log the gun into the disposition and into the safe. Total time...maybe 15 minutes? And a good salesman can, as you said, turn both the buyer and seller onto some more products the store offers.

Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.

And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS. :rolleyes:

scobun
06-22-2009, 3:24 PM
Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.

And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS. :rolleyes:

No argument here, I wouldn't really want to deal with that for 10 bucks. But, the dealer is still not losing money because their costs are all fixed. It might be unpleasant, but it isn't putting them in the red. Just as if I were to go pick vegetables all day and get paid $35 bucks, I can say that it wasn't worth it to me, but I can't say that I'm losing money on the deal if doing the job costs me $25.

ke6guj
06-22-2009, 7:55 PM
Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.
And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS. :rolleyes:yah, the time required can skyrocket, but you would be able to charge $85 for the PPT, $25 to CADOJ + $60 dealer fee (for 6 long guns).

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 8:02 PM
Thank you for articulating this, very well said.

I'm not sure that many businesses, in general, fully identify and understand their costs. FFLs are likely no different. Unfortunately, the customers rarely understand business concepts any better than the business managers themselves.

Agreed. I have to set contract prices for services for 1 to 5 year contracts. With all the variables it can be a challenge. Of course being able to set pricing means you have to know your cost, my bet is many gun stores really don't know the true cost regarding PPTs.

I don't think FFLs who charge more than allowed for PPTs are always being mercenary about it - I think they are for the most part making a "Hobson's Choice" decision that it's better to charge more to the person using the service than to raise prices on inventory or to take a loss. Problem is, that's not legal so the alternative is either treat it as a loss leader and teach your guys to sell to a captive PPT audience or, figure out your cost and distribute it among your inventory.

hill billy
06-22-2009, 8:05 PM
The fee is the law, if FFL's don't like it, work to change it or hand in your license.

" Gee, I think the FFL transfer requirement is unfair and costs me money, I'll just do my own transfer between my buddy and I"
Plug in whatever law you don't like. That's what you guys defending these FFL's charging these fees they KNOW are illegal are doing.

leelaw
06-22-2009, 8:07 PM
yah, the time required can skyrocket, but you would be able to charge $85 for the PPT, $25 to CADOJ + $60 dealer fee (for 6 long guns).

Yup.

It requires an additional entry on the 4473 and bound books, and the "number of longguns" field edited to match the number of longguns on DROS. Minimal work, and plenty of time to build a positive reputation with the purchaser and seller, and possibly make a sale with the captive audience.

hill billy
06-22-2009, 8:13 PM
and possibly make a sale with the captive audience.I will and have bought things from people I didn't really need at that moment just because they earned my business through their attitude.

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 8:16 PM
How

I don't get all the people saying FFL should charge more for "their hard work" doing PPT. Have you ever seem a real professional gun shop clerk do PPT? It's done less then 15 min. And they don't cut corners neither. Paper work, copy IDs, finger prints, safety loading/unloading...etc.


This is getting tiresome- between this, the "gouger" and "hoarder" threads I am confident that we've largely evolved into a culture with no respect for capitalist principles.

The market sets the price (unless the government ties your hands for you); you, largely, get to control your costs. The business will not be able to sell what customers are not interested in buying.

Regardless of how "hard" it is, there is value to the transaction; that value should not be defined by the government. You get to define it, as the consumer. The business who (given the legal opportunity) charges more for the service will either go out of business, or not.

A government-mandated process with a fixed unit price (set by the same government) but with no volume cap is a travesty.

How many hours of overtime were you legally obligated to provide at less than your regular time rate last week? Just chalk it up to cost of doing business (as an individual) and don't complain... :rolleyes:

DMCA
06-22-2009, 8:22 PM
It is time to put this argument to rest. While FFLs feel like they should be getting more than $10, they are not losing money, and if they are smart, can use this as a chance to make a lot more money by building their customer base. It costs them $25 plus the cost of ink, they make ten bucks. Everything else is a fixed cost that they'd have to pay no matter if they did a PPT or didn't do one. It costs them no more to have another two bodies in their shop, they don't take on another employee, have to purchase special equipment, increase the money the spend on utilities, etc. The whole opportunity cost argument is bunk as well, because you can't say every customer who does a PPT only spends $35, and that every customer that waits while a PPT is handled would have spent hundreds of dollars if they weren't so inconvenienced to have to wait 20 minutes. They are actually getting the government to subsidize their advertising budget by forcing people to conduct transactions in gun shops.

I now head to Livermore to visit Doms and J&R instead of Kevin Smith in Martinez because Kevin charged me $45 for a PPT. That extra $10 has probably lost him at least $2500 in transfer fees alone. By charging more than $35, FFLs lose money. They do not lose money on a PPT at $35.

Lastly, if a FFL doesn't do PPTs, they don't get to have their license and can't sell guns. PPTs keep them in the good graces of the people they need to stay in good graces with if they like to do any business. It is much more expensive NOT do to a PPT, or to refuse a PPT. They don't have to spend any money and get foot traffic, and some have the business skills to not treat those customers like crap. If they had any sales skills, they'd be asking customers about what holster they'll be using, if they have snap caps, if they want any ammo, do they need cleaning supplies, do they want a gunsmith to check it out, etc.

There is much about your argument I like and agree with. However, I will add that the 2 PPT's I undertook in the last 3 months, each took 30 minutes. One involved 2 pistols and the other, 1. On each occasion, the store employees conducting them were competent and polite.

It helped that myself and the other consumers also had all of the appropriate paperwork and did nothing to impede the transaction. We didn't wander far from the counter and there was little opportunity for the employee to engage us in banter about other topics. My conclusion about PPT's is that you would require a significant volume and a data link to the state which never slowed or stopped, in order to make any money.

30 Minutes and the full time attention of a store employee isn't covered by the $10 or even $20.

The state has mandated that gun retailers become revenue collectors and compliance agents. OK, that's the law, but as long as it remains so cumbersome and unprofitable for these guys, expect a lot of truculent attitudes.

Imagine, if you will, every private auto transaction had to be carried out on the premises of a licensed auto dealer and they had to input information in real time, to a state database, compile the same amount of documentation as for a new car sale and charge a nominal fee for their services.

Everyone on the lot would hide when they saw you coming.

hill billy
06-22-2009, 8:24 PM
Regardless of how "hard" it is, there is value to the transaction; that value should not be defined by the government.
True, but right now it is. End of discussion.

wildhawker
06-22-2009, 8:28 PM
It is time to put this argument to rest. While FFLs feel like they should be getting more than $10, they are not losing money, and if they are smart, can use this as a chance to make a lot more money by building their customer base. It costs them $25 plus the cost of ink, they make ten bucks. Everything else is a fixed cost that they'd have to pay no matter if they did a PPT or didn't do one. It costs them no more to have another two bodies in their shop, they don't take on another employee, have to purchase special equipment, increase the money the spend on utilities, etc. The whole opportunity cost argument is bunk as well, because you can't say every customer who does a PPT only spends $35, and that every customer that waits while a PPT is handled would have spent hundreds of dollars if they weren't so inconvenienced to have to wait 20 minutes. They are actually getting the government to subsidize their advertising budget by forcing people to conduct transactions in gun shops.

I now head to Livermore to visit Doms and J&R instead of Kevin Smith in Martinez because Kevin charged me $45 for a PPT. That extra $10 has probably lost him at least $2500 in transfer fees alone. By charging more than $35, FFLs lose money. They do not lose money on a PPT at $35.

Lastly, if a FFL doesn't do PPTs, they don't get to have their license and can't sell guns. PPTs keep them in the good graces of the people they need to stay in good graces with if they like to do any business. It is much more expensive NOT do to a PPT, or to refuse a PPT. They don't have to spend any money and get foot traffic, and some have the business skills to not treat those customers like crap. If they had any sales skills, they'd be asking customers about what holster they'll be using, if they have snap caps, if they want any ammo, do they need cleaning supplies, do they want a gunsmith to check it out, etc.

Glad you seem to enjoy wielding your $2500 of buying power around for a $10 issue. Must be nice being an expert on creating markets out forced sales. I assume you regularly put on seminars for FFLs to make them aware if these unique strategies?

I grant that businesses must use all their creativity within the confines of their industry's given laws and regulations to make a sale. The issue becomes that, one way or another, we ALL PAY for the "cheap PPTs" in so many ways.

Again, I am NOT condoning or justifying illegal acts- I am simply trying to point of some grossly-overlooked business aspects of this seemingly minor process madated by our government.

Respect for the customer is shown by those FFLs who understand and follow the law, and charge only the $35 allowed. Respect for the business is reciprocated by understanding the imposition and impact of these transactions and doing business with them accordingly. Empathy is a powerfull thing.

Z ME FLY
06-22-2009, 8:32 PM
I didn't read all of this but normally, when I do PPTs the guys there try to sell me some ammo or something for the gun I am picking up. Normally I pick something up if things go OK but if things take a long long time then I just leave afterwards without buying anything.

STAGE 2
06-22-2009, 8:44 PM
Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.

And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS. :rolleyes:

Two points.

First, there isn't any excuse an FFL can give because you were made aware of this requirement when you got your license. It was there in black and white and remains there in black and white. If you didn't like it then you shouldn't have applied for the license.

Second, how many customers come in and take up the time of the people behind the counter only to kick the tires and not spend any money at all. The answer is plenty. Once again, this is just part of having a business. It would be silly to complain that customers have the audacity to walk in the store without spending money. Its only slightly more ridiculous to complain that a customer is only giving you $10

elSquid
06-22-2009, 8:52 PM
Regardless of how "hard" it is, there is value to the transaction; that value should not be defined by the government.

There is no value in PPTs for me as a customer. If I could opt out I would.

What aspect of a PPT do you find necessary? If California was a normal state and you could do a true private party exchange, would you still go through an FFL? Why?

-- Michael

MiguelS
06-22-2009, 9:32 PM
Kinda thinking this as a PPT of a car.

The seller needs to send in the release of liability and you don't know if you are selling to a DUI felon illegal immigrant or some law abiding citizen.

How would one know that you are not selling to some felon? I personally would not want to sell a gun to someone that is going to use it later for some crime.

TitanCi
06-22-2009, 10:53 PM
So IF you send a gun to an FFL, they can charge DROS plus whatever fees they want? but if it's a PPT then the max they can charge is $35 for the first handgun???

is that correct?

Mssr. Elegantť
06-22-2009, 11:00 PM
So IF you send a gun to an FFL, they can charge DROS plus whatever fees they want? but if it's a PPT then the max they can charge is $35 for the first handgun???

is that correct?

Yes, that is correct. $25 for DROS and $10 for the Dealer. And just to be clear, a PPT is when two California residents go to a California Licensed Dealer together for the transfer. For everything else the Dealer can charge whatever he wants.

TitanCi
06-22-2009, 11:09 PM
Yes, that is correct. $25 for DROS and $10 for the Dealer. And just to be clear, a PPT is when two California residents go to a California Licensed Dealer together for the transfer. For everything else the Dealer can charge whatever he wants.

many thanks sir, as I will keep this in mind for future purchases...

epic4444
06-23-2009, 12:56 AM
i dont get why people think that we should have to pay more for the PPT fee..35 buck while not a huge amount always seems to make a sweet deal alot less sweet....why doesnt the DOJ just make it easier...im sure there alot of wasted info on those forms...and honestly a clerk can still help other people while letting the two members of the PPT fill out the forms

dfletcher
06-23-2009, 8:55 AM
There is no value in PPTs for me as a customer. If I could opt out I would.

What aspect of a PPT do you find necessary? If California was a normal state and you could do a true private party exchange, would you still go through an FFL? Why?

-- Michael


With the caveat that pretty much anyone can sue anyone for any number of reasons, I think independent documentation of disposal of a gun is a value. If a gun you owned but sold was subsequently used in a crime, would you prefer to have legally disposed of it through an FFL or by a direct (but for this example legal) private sale?

Also, there may be protection from civil liability if your gun is disposed of through an FFL. Similar question - if little Jimmy shot his friend dead would you prefer having sold the gun to his Dad directly or that he bought it from an FFL?

So I think there is a value, especially in CA, to using an FFL even if in theory we didn't have to.

elSquid
06-23-2009, 11:33 AM
With the caveat that pretty much anyone can sue anyone for any number of reasons, I think independent documentation of disposal of a gun is a value. If a gun you owned but sold was subsequently used in a crime, would you prefer to have legally disposed of it through an FFL or by a direct (but for this example legal) private sale?

Also, there may be protection from civil liability if your gun is disposed of through an FFL. Similar question - if little Jimmy shot his friend dead would you prefer having sold the gun to his Dad directly or that he bought it from an FFL?


Does California law specifically give a private seller immunity from civil actions related to a firearm lawfully sold via PPT? If not, then it doesn't matter. You, and probably the gunstore, will get sued regardless.

The way I see it is that the majority of states get along just fine with purely private firearm transactions, so I'm not sure why California wouldn't as well.

I should probably come clean on one thing: when I've sold guns I've either sold to people I know directly/indirectly or I've put them up on consignment. So I'm personally not overly concerned about my legal or moral exposure when disposing of firearms.

-- Michael

dfletcher
06-23-2009, 1:36 PM
Does California law specifically give a private seller immunity from civil actions related to a firearm lawfully sold via PPT? If not, then it doesn't matter. You, and probably the gunstore, will get sued regardless.

The way I see it is that the majority of states get along just fine with purely private firearm transactions, so I'm not sure why California wouldn't as well.

I should probably come clean on one thing: when I've sold guns I've either sold to people I know directly/indirectly or I've put them up on consignment. So I'm personally not overly concerned about my legal or moral exposure when disposing of firearms.

-- Michael

I don't know, I'm not an attorney, but I'd presume California law does not provide immunity. I would prefer being able to say the FFL and the state of CA put their stamp of approval on the process & the buyer instead of simply saying - "well, this guy had the money and I had the gun so we did the deal, I wasn't aware he just got out of jail." So I suppose in some circumstances an FFL could help, in others perhaps not. Using an FFL may not prevent me from being sued in civil court but it may well help me win.

I've done pretty much the same (before CA) as mentioned regarding selling - sold some to friends and do consignment for everything else. Personally I don't think using an FFL should be required - private property is just that and an adult should be able to do what they want and take their chances as they see fit.

kemasa
06-23-2009, 3:19 PM
Yes the shop now has the gun for the 10 day waiting period, that is why I don't want to publicly name them yet until recieve the gun.


I did get a receipt it indicates the following:

DROS fee for used firearms $35
Transfer Fee $70
Misc Discount -$5
Subtotal $100
Sales Tax 0
Total $100

There is another problem with the receipt. It appears to me that they are representing the DROS fee as being $35, which is also illegal to represent it as something which is it not. The DROS fee is $25 ($19 + $5 + $1, to be exact).

One question I have is if they are normally overcharging for the DROS fee.

What fees can I charge in addition to the DROS?

In addition to the State's $19.00 DROS fee, you must also charge a $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a State fee.

(PC sections 12071(b)(11), (12))

BTW, I talked to the CA DOJ and they do go after those who charge too much and/or misrepresent the fees.

kemasa
06-23-2009, 3:35 PM
Is this allowed then as well???/

Storage fees during the waiting period is not allowed.

kemasa
06-23-2009, 4:01 PM
BTW, we could also talk about fun issue with regards to a PPT, which many dealers ignore, and that is sales tax on the FFL fee. Yes, if you look it up or check, sales tax is required on the $10 fee, which actually makes the total over $35. Sales tax is also required on firearms which come from a business out of state, again which many FFLs fail to follow the law and collect the sales tax.

Now, before you attack, I would prefer to not collect the sales tax and I personally think that collecting sales tax on a FFL fee, which is basically just labor, is wrong, but it is the law. To not collect sales tax, you need a letter from the seller saying that it is a private sale, an occasional sale and that the seller does not have a business. Otherwise, the FFL could have problems with the BOE.

scobun
06-23-2009, 5:48 PM
BTW, we could also talk about fun issue with regards to a PPT, which many dealers ignore, and that is sales tax on the FFL fee. Yes, if you look it up or check, sales tax is required on the $10 fee, which actually makes the total over $35. Sales tax is also required on firearms which come from a business out of state, again which many FFLs fail to follow the law and collect the sales tax.

Now, before you attack, I would prefer to not collect the sales tax and I personally think that collecting sales tax on a FFL fee, which is basically just labor, is wrong, but it is the law. To not collect sales tax, you need a letter from the seller saying that it is a private sale, an occasional sale and that the seller does not have a business. Otherwise, the FFL could have problems with the BOE.

Sales tax applies to the item sold, not to the fee for service. There is no sales tax on an internet transfer fee, either, just on the item if it is being sold by a commercial retailer.

Aircraftman
06-23-2009, 8:05 PM
Thanks again to everyone for the great info and advice. Two Calguners contacted me and I provided info to steer them away from this store. Again I will publicly name this guy once my gun is safely home.

I have a letter written that I am going to present them (after gun is in car) with lots of backup including documents I printed off the DOJ and AG websites, thanks again to the many responders of this posting who provided me this info.

If this thing does not go my way Tuesday afternoon I will be asking advice on how to precede with reporting this to DOJ, however I can’t see how they won’t return my money; the facts are so clear and he has so much to loose….. but you never know.

One quick question: Some earlier poster noted that DOJ has some kind of hotline phone number that he has on speed dial. Can someone provide this phone number? The one number I got from 411 just rings and I did not see anything on the DOJ website. If he doesn’t see the light with the documentation, I thought I could call the hot line in his presence as a last ditch effort before taking this to the next level.

Regards,

Trader Jack
06-23-2009, 9:43 PM
Storage fees during the waiting period is not allowed.

It is if you know how to write. AFAIAC. Catch me if you can:D

leelaw
06-23-2009, 9:54 PM
It is if you know how to write. AFAIAC. Catch me if you can:D

You're writing yourself into a misdemeanor.

kemasa
06-24-2009, 9:13 AM
Sales tax applies to the item sold, not to the fee for service. There is no sales tax on an internet transfer fee, either, just on the item if it is being sold by a commercial retailer.

Sorry, but that is not correct. Please see:

CA Sales Tax Firearms Information (495.0843 & 495.0848)

on the CA BOE web site.

I just got off the phone with the BOE and was told that in the case of a PPT, sales tax would not have to be collected on the FFL since there is no sales tax collected on the item. The same would be true for firearms which come from private party occassional sales. If the firearm comes from out of state and is from a business, then sales tax is to be collected by the FFL (documentation above referenced BOE).

The firearm is actually considered "sold" by the FFL who does the transfer and that FFL is a CA business. It is not until that time that the ownership is transfered, even if the person paid for the item directly to an out of state business.

Trader Jack
06-24-2009, 9:17 PM
You're writing yourself into a misdemeanor.

Ah Lee, you know me better then that. You can't catch what you can't see, and you can't charge what you can't find.

You should know by now that I like to stair up the pot and get the teeny dippers underwear in a twist.:p

Kestryll
06-24-2009, 9:33 PM
Ah Lee, you know me better then that. You can't catch what you can't see, and you can't charge what you can't find.
Getting away with something doesn't make it legal.
We do NOT condone nor allow advocating illegal activity here.

You should know by now that I like to stair up the pot and get the teeny dippers underwear in a twist.:p

And you should remember that you said, and promised I believe, that you were done with that when you asked to be unbanned.

Since you were untruthful in order to return, you can leave again.

scootergmc
06-24-2009, 9:38 PM
Wait wait, before he's banned again, I want to know which shop he's now working for...


ETA: meh... too slow on the draw.

hill billy
06-25-2009, 4:42 AM
And you should remember that you said, and promised I believe, that you were done with that when you asked to be unbanned.

Since you were untruthful in order to return, you can leave again.

Thank you.

kemasa
06-25-2009, 8:26 AM
If this thing does not go my way Tuesday afternoon I will be asking advice on how to precede with reporting this to DOJ, however I canít see how they wonít return my money; the facts are so clear and he has so much to looseÖ.. but you never know.

One quick question: Some earlier poster noted that DOJ has some kind of hotline phone number that he has on speed dial. Can someone provide this phone number? The one number I got from 411 just rings and I did not see anything on the DOJ website. If he doesnít see the light with the documentation, I thought I could call the hot line in his presence as a last ditch effort before taking this to the next level.

Regards,

People can be stupid at times, even when you present them with the facts. Don't be surprised if they refuse to refund the money. I would also report them even if they refund the money as they are also violating the law with respect to claiming that the DROS fee is $35. Also, I suspect that they will continue to overcharge other customers who don't object.

If you paid with a credit card, I would also contest the charges.

From the CA DOJ web page:

General Information Phone: (916) 263-4887 Fax: (916) 263-0676

Firearm Dealer Licensing Phone: (916) 263-8100 Fax: (916) 263-0790

highpowermatch
06-25-2009, 3:18 PM
I have had that happen before. They usually spew how they have to be careful to follow the law to a T in order to stay in business. But when it comes to that law they are clueless? Also, why doesn't the DOJ correct them when inspecting their paperwork????

kemasa
06-25-2009, 3:28 PM
I suspect that the CA DOJ does not look that closely at the records. When I was inspected, they did not look at any of my receipts, so they would have no idea if I was not correctly charging customers. If they received a complaint, I suspect that they would look far more closely at specific issues.

I would guess that they might count on customers to report over charging, but that assumes that the person knows what the charges should be.

During my BATF inspection, the person flagged a transfer which was claimed to be over 30 days. The quick, easy method is to just look at the day of the month, but in this case it involved February, so it was not over 30 days. Using 30 days will not catch exceeding 30 days if the month has 31 days in it. Also, I was told that because I moved, I had to send in all my forms from my old address even though I did not go out of business. I said that did not make sense and the inspector would not budge. I called the records dept. and was told I did not have to, so I informed the inspector, giving the person's name and phone number, then she backed down from that position. I have to wonder about the training.

Aircraftman
07-01-2009, 9:59 PM
Well as promised here is the final chapter to my story and Iím happy to say it turned out very well.

I went in today to pick up my gun at Sportsmanís Arms in Petaluma. Waiting for me was the owner a gent named Gabriel. He was not there when we did the PPT ten days ago. Upon identifying myself he immediately stated that there had been a mistake and he owed me $65. He said the older gentleman that advised me of the $100 PPT charge was the previous owner and that he (Gabriel) and his wife (the nice young lady who did the paperwork) had just purchased the business from him. He said the previous owner was confused that day and he was very sorry for the overcharge. He continually apologized for the mistake and offered to refund me the $65 in cash, even though I paid by credit card.

Iím a pretty good judge of character and I felt he was sincere and truly sorry for the mistake. Instead of the cash, I purchased $65 worth of ammo and left the store a happy customer.

Iím sure some of you will call me naive; perhaps he saw this thread and knew he was in big trouble if he did not fix the mistake. But maybe it was an honest mistake made by a young couple trying to make a business work in a rotten time to be in business. I liked the way he handled himself and if I lived a little closer I would do business with him again.

He has a nice shop and even had a very, very nice e-series Python on consignment when I did the PPT. Sadly it was long and gone by today. It is a well stocked store, run by a nice couple. I hope this happy ending might result in some new business for them.

Thank you to everyone who helped me (and hopefully a few other newbieís) with the wealth of good information provided. This is one of the many reasons why this is such great hobby and Calguns is such a great site.

Warmest regards,

hill billy
07-02-2009, 5:52 AM
Sounds like everything worked out for the best. Cool.

golfrj
07-02-2009, 8:06 AM
I too am Pleased how things worked out, and that a Nice Shop seems to be in more customer Friendly hands.. YOU did GOOD!:)

jazman
07-02-2009, 3:20 PM
Very pleased to see the end result, both the shop/owners handling it correctly, and yourself for buying the ammo from them. Class all around, nicely done.