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imported_MaxQ
03-23-2005, 1:10 AM
Well, I got it today! Overall I'm very pleased.

Parkerized finish. 20 round mag with the floorplate welded to the mag body. Green follower. It ONLY fits 10 rounds. Mag catch is fixed in place.

Although I'm a function over fashion kind of guy, I think it looks really good. Thank God it doesn't look neutered. The park is decent, and a lot better than the thick FAB-10 coating. The finish looks alot better than that pic that was posted a while ago. Hole placement/overall dims eyeball okay. Surfaces and edges are reasonably straight and clean, with just a couple thread burrs.

Considering the relatively lower stress on the lower, it looks like it should hold up okay. Of course, a goodly amount of field testing is the only way to make sure...

The biggest drawback I can see so far is having to replace the spring or follower.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/cala4/mag1.jpg

imported_MaxQ
03-23-2005, 1:10 AM
Well, I got it today! Overall I'm very pleased.

Parkerized finish. 20 round mag with the floorplate welded to the mag body. Green follower. It ONLY fits 10 rounds. Mag catch is fixed in place.

Although I'm a function over fashion kind of guy, I think it looks really good. Thank God it doesn't look neutered. The park is decent, and a lot better than the thick FAB-10 coating. The finish looks alot better than that pic that was posted a while ago. Hole placement/overall dims eyeball okay. Surfaces and edges are reasonably straight and clean, with just a couple thread burrs.

Considering the relatively lower stress on the lower, it looks like it should hold up okay. Of course, a goodly amount of field testing is the only way to make sure...

The biggest drawback I can see so far is having to replace the spring or follower.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/cala4/mag1.jpg

dave3006
03-23-2005, 4:16 AM
If you moved to a different state, could you replace the magazine with a detachable one yourself? (how is it held in place?)

Richard
03-23-2005, 6:26 AM
Did you get a copy of the DOJ approval letter? Might you be able to post it for all to view?
thanks.

bwiese
03-23-2005, 6:39 AM
Hi guys...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Dave3006 wrote: If you moved to a different state, could you replace the magazine with a detachable one yourself? (how is it held in place? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dave, _legally_ of course there's nothing stopping you. I would think it is welded/fused in place. Interesting, because I've heard this is a steel mag, not alloy (but that could be wrong). You might be able to cut out the stub and mill the remaining innards out.

Richard -
I saw posts about this earlier. This is indeed DOJ approved. It is sufficiently different from AR15 that it is not an AR

Bill Wiese
San Jose

imported_MaxQ
03-23-2005, 8:29 AM
dave - The mag catch is permanently attached in the mag slot. I can't tell if it is welded. There's also some epoxy(?) between the mag and mag well. I don't see why you couldn't remove it if you move out of state, but as has been said before, why even worry about that? I'm just happy that we have another legal option here. With the price and availability of normal lowers elsewhere, you could sell this one in Cali, and buy your choice.

Richard - Vulcan forgot to include a letter, so they faxed one to me. It's hard to read, but is almost identical to the FAB-10 letter.

Bill - My refrigerator magnets don't fall off. Also, the pic doesn't show it well, but the mag looks exactly like any other generic ar mag.

bwiese
03-23-2005, 8:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bill - My refrigerator magnets don't fall off. Also, the pic doesn't show it well, but the mag looks exactly like any other generic ar mag. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, most 'generic' (meaning non-USGI milspec) AR mags from USA, PMI, Precision (hah!) are steel not alum alloy.

How they weld steel to aluminum is, um, 'interesting'. I'm wondering about legality of epoxying - permanence??

Bill Wiese
San Jose

imported_MaxQ
03-23-2005, 8:40 AM
Bill - I wasn't thinking the mag was welded to the lower. I meant that it might be welded to the mag catch, which is steel. And since you can't depress the mag catch button, you can't remove the catch or mag. Also, the mag doesn't budge at all. It's in the well solidly.

tleary
03-23-2005, 9:34 AM
I thought these were all "recalled" because of the mag body?http://calguns.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/332609466/m/49010754321

bwiese
03-23-2005, 10:07 AM
Hi MaxQ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bill - I wasn't thinking the mag was welded to the lower. I meant that it might be welded to the mag catch, which is steel. And since you can't depress the mag catch button, you can't remove the catch or mag. Also, the mag doesn't budge at all. It's in the well solidly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember, AR receivers are banned by Kasler decision no matter mfgr/model. So a method like the fixed mag catch in the legal CaliFAL is NOT legal with ARs - it's still an AR lower.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think the DOJ would consider a fixed mag AR lower as really being 'fixed' if it's just held by some kinda fixed mag catch, even if catch welded in somehow. That'd be too easy to drill out and make an AR lower accepting of a detach. mag even if the mag catch replacing the drilled out one were a bit funky.

The FAB10 lower has a capped magwell, and GB sales Bushmasters are rewelded. Both would take substantial nontrivial work & tooling in magwell area to convert into a working AR lower - essentially a manufacturing job. This allows DOJ to say these aren't, in fact, ARs.

The Vulcan lower here is likely held to the
same standard here, and I'd bet that the Vulcan ag in question is somehow permanently welded into the lower. It can be done. I just don't think epoxy would count, nor would some so-called permanent hack of the mag catch.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

imported_MaxQ
03-23-2005, 1:07 PM
I didn't mean to say that the mag catch was the only point of attachment. I was just giving a description of what appeared to be the primary area.

It's hard to see between the mag and well as there's so little clearance, but you see mostly daylight with what looks like a couple of pins or welds from the mag to the receiver. I suppose there could be additional welds where the mag and well touch, but I'm not going to try and pry it apart to get a better look. If the DOJ is okay with it, my curiosity only goes so far. Anyway, it's nothing like the description of the Bushmaster lower, which from my understanding seems to be effectively similar to a FAB-10. I'd guess that the welded floorplate helps here too.

BTW, you can attach steel to aluminum through a process much like soldering. Remember, we're talking about a mag here, it's not like the joint will be subjected to significant stress.

My opinion (so far) is that the DOJ is being very reasonable about this lower not being readily convertible to detached mag capability.

50 Freak
03-23-2005, 1:16 PM
Can you post a pic of the other side of the receiver?

imported_MaxQ
03-23-2005, 1:52 PM
50 Freak - your wish is my command:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/cala4/receiver2.jpg

TonyNorCal
03-23-2005, 2:11 PM
What are these bad boys selling for?

Dr. EBR
03-23-2005, 3:06 PM
The answer I got from Vulcan via email was that there is a blind pin in there somewhere. I'm guessing it's sort of like how muzzle brakes are attached to barrels -- you need to grind away some material to expose it. If you were to move out of state, you could sell the lower before you move but you likely wouldn't get the original price for it. So I'd say it would be more cost effective just to remove the fixed mag yourself but sawing off the mag, dremel away the sides of the mag from the inside until you find the blind pin and grind it down. You may even see the pin from the inside once you cut off the mag.

My guess is the pin is in the lower front part of the mag well, just like the rivet I've seen from Fab 10 pics.

BigAL
03-23-2005, 4:48 PM
If you move to a free state why don't you just buy a stripped lower receiver from a reputable manufacturer that was never bastardized in the first place, as opposed to trying to convert a lower from a maker of questionable quality. Lowers aren't that expensive relative to what the rest of the gun is gonna cost.

jmlivingston
03-23-2005, 5:00 PM
I'd tend to agree, I think it was AIM that recently had Stag Arms lowers for something ridiculous like $99. (never heard of them, not much of an AR guy myself, but a darn good price at least!)

BigAL
03-23-2005, 5:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jmlivingston:
I'd tend to agree, I think it was AIM that recently had Stag Arms lowers for something ridiculous like $99. (never heard of them, not much of an AR guy myself, but a darn good price at least!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stag makes a GOOD lower. The only thing holding me back from building with one is I don't like the deer picture.

bwiese
03-23-2005, 5:13 PM
Yeah, if you move out of CA, just get a real lower. Why try to put lipstick on a pig?

There's all sorts of good forged lowers out there now. I haven't really seen a bad AR lower. I believe most lowers come from same forging co anyway. Even my ASA lowers - and ASA is a co from whom I'd buy very very very little - are great.

As long as the holes are drilled right positions, and the rear loop threaded OK for buffer tube, and the mag well milled within spec, you're OK.


Bill W
San Jose

Mr331
03-23-2005, 6:26 PM
My Vulcan lower came in as well. I won't pick it up till this weekend. I'm not in a hurry though. Bushmaster is very backed up and the rest of my rifle won't be here for a few weeks. I'll wait.......patiently........(pacing back and forth). http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Blue
03-23-2005, 6:33 PM
How much did it cost and where'd you buy it?

Mr331
03-23-2005, 8:41 PM
$250. Newtown Enterprises for me. $250 for either Fab10 or Vulcan.

imported_MaxQ
03-24-2005, 6:52 AM
$239 + $10 shipping paid by cc over the phone to Vulcan. Shipped to Euroarms in Alhambra.

Mr331 - It looks like FAB-10 prices have come down now that there's some competition. I'm curious if you'll have the same favorable impression of the Vulcan that I do. At least as compared to the FAB-10.

Richard
03-24-2005, 6:59 AM
I've been to Euroarms..

at the risk of stiring the pot... http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What did Euroarms charge you as fees,,,meaning Dros,Dealer fees and TAXES?

thanks

leego
03-24-2005, 11:04 AM
MaxQ,
You got me thinking now about building one now. Maybe I should've kept that Colt upper...hope driving home in that rain wasn't too bad.
Let me know when you get your project done and we could meet up at SGVGC to try it out

Leego

only10rds
03-24-2005, 7:07 PM
Is there a online retailer that sells it? Please post url. Thanks.


__________________________________________________ ________________

http://nbox00.tripod.com

Mr331
03-24-2005, 10:11 PM
I got mine today. The new Vulcan's now have a 10rd fixed mag. They were getting too much flak over the 20rd (capped at 10). He still has some 20rd lowers as well as complete Vulcans with the 20rd mag.

imported_MaxQ
03-24-2005, 11:23 PM
Richard - Around $100 for everything. They've always treated me fairly, and I'm supporting my local gunshop. And yes, they did charge sales tax.

leego - There are very few things that I hate more than LA traffic, but you know, I didn't seem to mind it at all. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mr331 - Very interesting. I got the impression from Vulcan that they were all 20 round mags capped at 10. But I didn't bother to verify that as I'd already seen mine.

C.G.
03-25-2005, 8:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I got mine today. The new Vulcan's now have a 10rd fixed mag. They were getting too much flak over the 20rd (capped at 10). He still has some 20rd lowers as well as complete Vulcans with the 20rd mag. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is why Sonoma FireArms would not sell me the Vulcan lowers; as oppose to your FFL they sent the 20 rounders back to Vulcan. If I had a twenty rounder I would check with DOJ to make sure that it complies; better safe than sorry.

tleary
03-25-2005, 9:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I got mine today. The new Vulcan's now have a 10rd fixed mag. They were getting too much flak over the 20rd (capped at 10). He still has some 20rd lowers as well as complete Vulcans with the 20rd mag. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is why Sonoma FireArms would not sell me the Vulcan lowers; as oppose to your FFL they sent the 20 rounders back to Vulcan. If I had a twenty rounder I would check with DOJ to make sure that it complies; better safe than sorry. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoke to john at sonoma firearms and he said he just got off the phone with the DOJ and they are allowing the 20rd mag bodies but Vulcan has to make one more mod to it.

C.G.
03-25-2005, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Spoke to john at sonoma firearms and he said he just got off the phone with the DOJ and they are allowing the 20rd mag bodies but Vulcan has to make one more mod to it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know what mod they have to make?

gunRfun
03-25-2005, 7:41 PM
So does that mean we can purchase 20 round fixed mags?? Cuz if so then I want one!

C.G.
03-25-2005, 8:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So does that mean we can purchase 20 round fixed mags?? Cuz if so then I want one! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they do allow it, it is a blocked 20 round mag that holds ten rounds only

only10rds
03-26-2005, 11:15 AM
I read that the Vulcan V15 CA approved lower is poor quality compared to the FAB 10 or GB Sales. Is this true?

C.G.
03-26-2005, 1:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I read that the Vulcan V15 CA approved lower is poor quality compared to the FAB 10 or GB Sales. Is this true? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I preferred the powder-coated finish (will last longer than parkerizing) on the Fab-10 over Vulcan and did not hear anything bad about Shoeless that is why I got the FAB-10, but some people prefer the Vulcan finish. Vulcan overall does not have a good name in the AR community, but as I believe, Bill Wiese pointed out few threads ago, the lower on an AR is not as important as the upper so it will probaly be OK. GB Sales looks really good, but they won't sell lowers only and complete rifle is way too much money for me; they charge about $500 hundred more than a regular Bushie.

Mr331
03-26-2005, 5:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by only10rds:
I read that the Vulcan V15 CA approved lower is poor quality compared to the FAB 10 or GB Sales. Is this true? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The quality is fine. Looks and acts like any other AR-15 lower. The lower is not "made" by Vulcan. Vulcan (or Hesse) has had some quality issues in the past. I know of 2 people who have the CA legal Vulcan complete rifle. They have worked without flaw to this date. On a positive side for the Vulcan is that you can get it stripped. I hear Fab10 is only selling their lowers complete now. The Vulcan is $250 then you can build it with parts from a company of your choosing. That is what sold me.

only10rds
03-26-2005, 8:32 PM
How does the price compare between a Vulcan with a internal kit vs. a complete FAB 10?


__________________________________________________ ________________

http://nbox00.tripod.com

Mr331
03-26-2005, 9:58 PM
I think I heard that the Fab 10 is $400, complete lower (no stock). Again...I Think. The Vulcan is $250 and the internals from Bushmaster are $60. There are 3 or 4 other companies attempting to do the same as Vulcan. I have heard DS Arms might get involved. Competition is good!

schizrade
03-31-2005, 7:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr331:
$250. Newtown Enterprises for me. $250 for either Fab10 or Vulcan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where is thsi place? Contact info etc?

fastmanusa
03-31-2005, 7:31 PM
Newtown is just east of Placerville. They are some of the nicest people that I have meant in awile.

schizrade
03-31-2005, 7:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fastmanusa:
Newtown is just east of Placerville. They are some of the nicest people that I have meant in awile. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have a location/address? A friend is going to stop there and get one.

schizrade
03-31-2005, 7:55 PM
Found them.

Rascal
03-31-2005, 8:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schizrade:
Found them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please share the information. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

schizrade
03-31-2005, 8:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rascal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schizrade:
Found them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please share the information. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Newtown (http://local.yahoo.com/details;_ylt=AkGthhqy7K86eVW7.uCVzVWHNcIF;_ylu=X3o DMTBpZzIyMjd0BF9zAzk2NjEzNzY5BHNlYwNzcg--?id=21749713&state=CA&city=Pollock+Pines&stx=Sporting+Goods&csz=Pollock+Pines%2C+CA+95726&fr=&uzip=95726&ed=UIZAPq131Dwlov2MvWgU9zEnvdDPMzT97IbaTIlnxG6ZA9j ICWsH0.ir&lcscb=f8ivTV4am0u)

only10rds
04-01-2005, 12:22 AM
I am going to wait for another better quality manufacturer since I'm not in a rush to get a neutered AR. Both FAB 10 and V15 are not very high quality for such a high price. It is very promising news that more companies will offer new CA. lowers. Any one know who will enter the market?

Mr331
04-02-2005, 7:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by only10rds:
I am going to wait for another better quality manufacturer since I'm not in a rush to get a neutered AR. Both FAB 10 and V15 are not very high quality for such a high price. It is very promising news that more companies will offer new CA. lowers. Any one know who will enter the market? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When it comes to a lower I'm not sure you are going to see a drastic difference in quality. The Vulcan is a standard AR-15 lower with the mag pinned in place. The Fab 10 uses the same AR-15 specs but visually looks different due to no visible mag and a shiny powdercoat finish. The name stamped in the side is about the only difference you will get.

bwiese
04-02-2005, 9:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by only10rds:
I am going to wait for another better quality manufacturer since I'm not in a rush to get a neutered AR. Both FAB 10 and V15 are not very high quality for such a high price. It is very promising news that more companies will offer new CA. lowers. Any one know who will enter the market? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well your only other option is something like that GB modified Bushmaster (DOJ approved) - unfortunately they're only selling complete CA-legal Bushmaster rifles, not just lowers.

I personally would vote for the FAB10 - it's been in service long enough without complaints I'd trust it. Given Vulcan's prior incarnation as Hesse Arms, I'd be far less likely to trust them.

Given that though, an AR15 lower is not a terribly sensitive part. If the key holes for pivot, takedown and hammer + trigger are all drilled in proper relation to each other and the reciver extension tube ("buffer tube") it should be well. For some reason I think I'd trust FAB10's mag feeding ability better than Vulcan's.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

marklbucla
04-06-2005, 8:00 PM
Out of curiousity, why the interest in these "AR's" with the CA Assault Weapon Ban repeal being talked about right now? Do you all believe that the repeal attemt is going to fail?

Josh
04-06-2005, 8:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marklbucla:
Out of curiousity, why the interest in these "AR's" with the CA Assault Weapon Ban repeal being talked about right now? Do you all believe that the repeal attemt is going to fail? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, but stranger things have happend.

But the squeky wheel gets the grease. So the more we complain and get bills introduced. Eventually someone will say, "hey they dont want this crap" and maybe we will get our rifles back.

Dr. EBR
04-10-2005, 10:12 PM
Any range report yet regarding the function of the mag/follower?