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huckberry668
06-13-2009, 11:17 PM
I have a relative who lives in Texas. He's got some guns he wants to get rid of and I'm interested in 1 or 2 of them. If he brings them to CA in person can we do a legal FTF PPT?

TIA

Hopi
06-13-2009, 11:19 PM
Yep, if they are CA legal.

ETA: I have been corrected and the handguns must be on the safe handgun roster for PPT.

huckberry668
06-13-2009, 11:23 PM
what does 'CA legal' mean? like no-threaded muzzle, no front grip, no mag-well infront of the grip (except for the Olympic ones) kind of features?

hoffmang
06-13-2009, 11:25 PM
He can not "import for sale" a handgun not on the California Roster. If the gun is rostered, he should be able to complete a PPT, but the DROS software illegally prohibits that.

-Gene

Hopi
06-13-2009, 11:28 PM
Well, if the handgun is a semi-auto that is capable of accepting a detachable magazine then it cannot have a:
-threaded barrel
-mag outside of the pistol grip


What guns are you thinking about?

Hopi
06-13-2009, 11:32 PM
He can not "import for sale" a handgun not on the California Roster. If the gun is rostered, he should be able to complete a PPT, but the DROS software illegally prohibits that.

-Gene

Hmmm. Did you use quotes to demonstrate that the law is written to address intent? What if he brings it in to shoot, then decides to sell?

Does that apply to interfamiliar PPT transfers?

hoffmang
06-13-2009, 11:34 PM
Hmmm. Did you use quotes to imply intent? What if he brings it in to shoot, then decides to sell?

Does that apply to interfamiliar PPT transfers?

Interfamiliar transfers are exempt generally from the Roster.

The pertinent text of the law is:


12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
... imports into the state for sale ... any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.


-Gene

Hopi
06-13-2009, 11:35 PM
Interfamiliar transfers are exempt generally from the Roster.

The pertinent text of the law is:



-Gene

I reworded my question above. Do you think that the law is addressing intent? Can somebody not intend to sell it, but import it on vacation, and later decide to sell?

huckberry668
06-13-2009, 11:42 PM
I like that 'interfamiliar transfer clause. thanks

Quiet
06-14-2009, 3:09 AM
I like that 'interfamiliar transfer clause. thanks

Keep in mind, under CA law [PC 12078(c)(3)], intra-familial transfer is only between grandparent - parent - child - grandchild.
Siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. do not qualify for the intra-familial transfer exemption.



Penal Code 12078
(c)(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

Quiet
06-14-2009, 3:22 AM
I reworded my question above. Do you think that the law is addressing intent? Can somebody not intend to sell it, but import it on vacation, and later decide to sell?

If they offer/expose it for sale during their visit to CA, then it'll be illegal.


Penal Code 12125
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

caldude
06-14-2009, 6:49 AM
Some dealers will only allow a PPT between CA residents. I've seen when an out of state resident tried to do a PPT, the FFL required the gun to be transferred to their inventory, similar to a web sale transfer. This doesn't disallow the PPT, it just adds transfer fees.

Librarian
06-14-2009, 9:21 AM
Some dealers will only allow a PPT between CA residents. I've seen when an out of state resident tried to do a PPT, the FFL required the gun to be transferred to their inventory, similar to a web sale transfer. This doesn't disallow the PPT, it just adds transfer fees.

This is the way the DROS software is written - it will accept only CA ID for both parties.

CA apparently wants to treat those as interstate sales; that would not be a CA 'PPT', but it does meet Federal requirements for transfer through an FFL in the state of residence of the buyer.

JTROKS
06-14-2009, 9:27 AM
Looks like it has to go into the FFL holder's inventory and he can charge you more than $35, because it's not a PPT anymore it's a DROS in which you'll have to wait another 30 days to DROS another gun. Was that sentence too long?

eaglemike
06-14-2009, 9:42 AM
I hadn't realized that it would be a crime to "lend" a non-rostered gun that was legally owned by a state resiudent. Hmmm, since a between residents PPT is legal, why this baloney???????:(

Hopi
06-14-2009, 9:43 AM
If they offer/expose it for sale during their visit to CA, then it'll be illegal.


Penal Code 12125
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

Thanks for the clarification. My OP has been edited to include the correct info.

walter
06-14-2009, 10:46 PM
WTF is an "unsafe handgun" god I just realiZed how retarded the roster is

dpark514
06-14-2009, 11:00 PM
Like what Quiet said only immediate family member. Also even if he decides to come to California to do a PPT he has to be a legal resident of the state of California. All PPT has to be done with 2 California residents.

Librarian
06-14-2009, 11:20 PM
WTF is an "unsafe handgun" god I just realiZed how retarded the roster is

It's one that has not been declared 'not unsafe'. You think I'm kidding - nope -- Penal Code 12131. (a) On and after January 1, 2001, the
Department of Justice shall compile, publish, and thereafter
maintain a roster listing all of the pistols, revolvers, and
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person that
have been tested by a certified testing laboratory, have been
determined not to be unsafe handguns,

ccandgc
06-15-2009, 8:31 AM
I actually found help on a question I have! I love calguns!!
My uncle is coming to CA from HI. He has a nice Sig 226 that I have shot before, and really enjoyed. If I can talk him into selling it to me here in CA, it would have to be done thru an FFL, since he is not a resident, PPT is out, right?
He will be up north, would he be able to send the pistol from where he is at, down here to one of the local FFL's in San Diego? Or since it is a pistol, does it have to go FFL -> FFL?

Thanks for the help! (and no thread jacking intended!)

dpark514
06-15-2009, 9:04 AM
I actually found help on a question I have! I love calguns!!
My uncle is coming to CA from HI. He has a nice Sig 226 that I have shot before, and really enjoyed. If I can talk him into selling it to me here in CA, it would have to be done thru an FFL, since he is not a resident, PPT is out, right?
He will be up north, would he be able to send the pistol from where he is at, down here to one of the local FFL's in San Diego? Or since it is a pistol, does it have to go FFL -> FFL?

Thanks for the help! (and no thread jacking intended!)

Since he's not a resident of California he won't be able to do a PPT with you. He can sell the handgun to a FFL and you would have to purchase it from the FFL. (lets hope that the ffl is nice and doesn't up charge you for the handgun). I would think your uncle would have come down with the handgun and do the transaction in person.

ccandgc
06-15-2009, 9:06 AM
I could do that, but being half way across CA, and I won't be there for the 10 day, I was wondering what my options are....

CHS
06-15-2009, 9:17 AM
All PPT has to be done with 2 California residents.

Legally, that's not true.

Like Gene said, the DROS software illegally requires you (as an FFL) to only process PPT's between CA residents.

The receiver of the gun DOES have to be a CA resident, but there is no legal requirement for the seller to be a CA resident.

I've always wondered if we could just process these PPT's on the paper DROS form and fax it to the DOJ and just skip the computer process. But then we would have to request a DROS # from them too.

CHS
06-15-2009, 9:19 AM
I could do that, but being half way across CA, and I won't be there for the 10 day, I was wondering what my options are....

Find a friendly FFL who will take your gun into inventory from your uncle, and then hold it for you until you get back and can do the 4473/DROS on it.

It would be like any other transfer, but instead of your uncle mailing it in, he's dropping it off :) Decent FFL's only charge about 50$ for this.

ccandgc
06-15-2009, 9:35 AM
Thanks for the info.....I really like the Sig!:) He'll be up in the Monterey Bay area, and recommendations on a good FFL to use up there?

Heres another question-> If we find an FFL up there, we take the Sig to them, can they send it to an FFL down here in San Diego? I know they will charge fees, thats ok......Ive never done this sort of thing with an out of state resident.....

thanks!
Chad

CHS
06-15-2009, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the info.....I really like the Sig!:) He'll be up in the Monterey Bay area, and recommendations on a good FFL to use up there?

Heres another question-> If we find an FFL up there, we take the Sig to them, can they send it to an FFL down here in San Diego? I know they will charge fees, thats ok......Ive never done this sort of thing with an out of state resident.....


Sounds like the best option is to just have him mail the gun to an FFL in your area. Don't bother with one in the Monterey area. You'll want it to go directly to an FFL where YOU will be doing the transfer. This takes care of everything in one easy step. Since it's a handgun, he can't ship it using USPS, but he can overnight it UPS or FedEx.

Better yet, he can just do this from Hawaii. There really is no need to bring it to the states just to mail it somewhere else in the states.

ccandgc
06-15-2009, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the info man! I really appreciate it!!! I talked to him, and looks like I might get the Sig for cheap.....It has less than 50 rounds thru it....I will have him send it then. :D :D :D

dfletcher
06-15-2009, 12:30 PM
Legally, that's not true.

Like Gene said, the DROS software illegally requires you (as an FFL) to only process PPT's between CA residents.

The receiver of the gun DOES have to be a CA resident, but there is no legal requirement for the seller to be a CA resident.

I've always wondered if we could just process these PPT's on the paper DROS form and fax it to the DOJ and just skip the computer process. But then we would have to request a DROS # from them too.


So under those conditions, a PPT done from a nonresident visiting CA could include off roster, yes? Or does the "shall not import" off roster kick in?

Is there a difference between someone driving from AZ (or NV or OR) for the purpose of importing and PPT'ing an off roster handgun and someone who happens to be visiting and has a nonrostered handgun with him, that he wants to sell to a friend?

On some of my visits to friends in OR they've developed a liking for some of the guns I've brought with me for the visit. They've asked to buy and it just so happens that I didn't feel like selling. If I had, we would have gone to an FFL and done the deal. I can see the same thing happening in CA - so if a person visits, happens to have a CA legal (no AW) handgun that his friend wants to buy, that can or can not be done if the handgun is off roster?

markw
06-15-2009, 12:47 PM
Military Non-Residents can PPT as long as they're stationed here on PCS orders. Who knows what they'd have in their inventory, being from free states and all.

Rekrab
06-15-2009, 2:03 PM
Sorry for the slightly off topic question, but am I correct in my understanding that if I were to be given a handgun by my grandfather, who lives in Washington, the handgun would not need to be on roster?

ke6guj
06-15-2009, 2:13 PM
So under those conditions, a PPT done from a nonresident visiting CA could include off roster, yes? Or does the "shall not import" off roster kick in?

Is there a difference between someone driving from AZ (or NV or OR) for the purpose of importing and PPT'ing an off roster handgun and someone who happens to be visiting and has a nonrostered handgun with him, that he wants to sell to a friend?
to further refine the restriction, could someone import a off-roster handgun in order to gift it to the CA resident. The import restriction seems to be limited to importation for sale.

Sorry for the slightly off topic question, but am I correct in my understanding that if I were to be given a handgun by my grandfather, who lives in Washington, the handgun would not need to be on roster?correct. It would be an intrafamily transfer which is roster exempt. However, in order to comply with federal law, you must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer. Be aware that not all dealers understand the nuances of the law in this area, and may not be willing to do the transfer. And it is not a PPT transfer, so they can charge whatever fee they wish.