EXPANSION OF THE BAN ON LEAD AMMUNITION MAY BE ATTEMPTED BY FISH & GAME

[H Paul Payne]

http://calnra.com/skin/mcNcrpa.gif (http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert061209.shtml)
CALNRA/CRPA: Expansion of Lead Ammo Ban Expected
6/12/2009 NOON - PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY

EXPANSION OF THE BAN ON LEAD AMMUNITION MAY BE ATTEMPTED BY FISH & GAME

From the beginning, proponents of the current Lead Ammo ban have wanted lead ammunition banned state-wide. The California condor was simply being used as an excuse by the anti-hunters and anti-gunners to carry out this agenda. They have already achieved a partial ban. Their ultimate goal is to take the ban state-wide! If they are successful, they will push to ban the use of lead ammunition for everyone, not just hunters.

View the rest of this CAL-ERT, including VIDEOS, here:
http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert061209.shtml

[IGOTDIRT4U]

I hope the NRA has informed the F&G department that they can expect a costly lawsuit, hopefully preceded by an injunction.

[yellowfin]

Go after them for deprivation of civil rights under color of law? Why sue when you can prosecute.

[AaronHorrocks]

I say we start shooting depleted uranium.

[hoffmang]

Lawsuits take years to complete - years where you may not be able to use lead bullets for anything but self defense.

Those would be bad years.

Let's work to stop this up front.

-Gene

[H Paul Payne]

Let's work to stop this up front.

-Gene

Thanks for the assist Gene.

I realize that it is much easier to chat about the latest: legal case/gun bust/DOJ folly/Internet rumor/etc. than to actively lobby against a Lead Ammunition Ban. Active lobbying is work and is not that sexy! :eek:

But we really need EVERYONE to pitch-in on this one because IT IS THAT IMPORTANT!

Hey everyone! When was the last-time you saw an alert, that came from BOTH the NRA and the CRPA???? N E V E R B E F O R E ! ! !

But you see it NOW. There are many reasons. Yes, CRPA is actively working with the NRA, AND this issue is so very important that we MUST work together if we are to defeat this scheme. Maybe this is the start of a new/more effective gun lobby in California?!? :D

Isn't that what we've been wanting for years??

Please pitch-in and help folks.

The issue is somewhat complicated, but we explain it pretty well in the alert at: http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert061209.shtml

Jump into the fight guys (and girls), we need you on the team.

Thanks for reading my plea.

Paul

[zcrehan]

! not good

[bulgron]

How does someone end up on the F&G commission?

Can we get the bad guys kicked off?

[IGOTDIRT4U]

Lawsuits take years to complete - years where you may not be able to use lead bullets for anything but self defense.

Those would be bad years.

Let's work to stop this up front.

-Gene

Seems like an injunction might be best to hold this at bay until hearings can be conducted before the F&G. They themselves wrote the rules on implementation of the lead ban, and expressly limited it to condor breeding/habitat areas. (Which is laughable because not only did I see about 12-15 California Condors at the Grand Canyon last month, but people in that area hunt nearly year round)

Anyhow, I will make the calls.

[Davidoff]

I could use more info on the next Commission meeting. I see it will be on June 24-25 at the Yolo Flier's Club. I just need to know when to show up and how I can get a chance to speak. I work in Woodland, and would be glad to take an afternoon off to voice my opposition in person.

[HunterJim]

How does someone end up on the F&G commission?

Can we get the bad guys kicked off?

$50K campaign contribution to the Gov.

I checked the Commission agenda for the June meeting, but did not find an extension of teh Pb ban. I did see the item to receive the DFG 2008 report on lead in condors.

jim

[Cool Gun Wife]

From the beginning, proponents of the current Lead Ammo ban have wanted lead ammunition banned state-wide. ... they will push to ban the use of lead ammunition for everyone, not just hunters.

I am not a hunter, but since this falls under the "incremental plan" strategy where they take rights by inches, I have, am, and will fight this. All of us who shoot are threatened by this, so nobody gets a sit this one out pass.

Thanks Paul and Gene for the reminder and the urgency note. It isn't all that inconvenient to voice opposition to the proposed ban. It will be more than inconvenient if they get away with this.

Come on girls, join me.

[Hopi]

Bump to the top and tag.

[dustoff31]

I could use more info on the next Commission meeting. I see it will be on June 24-25 at the Yolo Flier's Club. I just need to know when to show up and how I can get a chance to speak. I work in Woodland, and would be glad to take an afternoon off to voice my opposition in person.

Good for you. As many people as possible should attend the meeting and speak if at all possible. IIRC four people, other than reps from gun/hunting orgs, showed up to speak against the original lead ban.

It's easy for officials to be "brave", when they think they are only facing the lobbyists. When they have to look voters and taxpayers in the eye, not so much. Over 250 people showed up for the meeting of the AZ DFG when they were considering a lead ban and it was dropped like a hot rock.

[hoffmang]

Seems like an injunction might be best to hold this at bay until hearings can be conducted before the F&G. They themselves wrote the rules on implementation of the lead ban, and expressly limited it to condor breeding/habitat areas. (Which is laughable because not only did I see about 12-15 California Condors at the Grand Canyon last month, but people in that area hunt nearly year round)

Anyhow, I will make the calls.

Court action certainly isn't ruled out, but the courts are fickle on stuff like this - especially before a rule is promulgated. We should do everything we can to stop the rule from happening in the first place.

-Gene

[unusedusername]

Who needs to be contacted over this?

I want to help, but I don't know what to do ?? :confused:

[SimpleCountryActuary]

I say we start shooting depleted uranium.

How about undepleted uranium and make those condors glow in the dark! :nuke:

[socal2310]

How about undepleted uranium and make those condors glow in the dark! :nuke:

How about enriched uranium? Find out how many slugs it takes to go critical...

Ryan

[7x57]

410 mi, 6h 16m


:(

7x57

[Librarian]

Who needs to be contacted over this?

I want to help, but I don't know what to do ?? :confused:

Clicking the link (http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert061209.shtml) in both of Paul Payne's posts refers you to
... the NRA and CRPA urge you to contact the CA. Fish & Game Commission and voice your opposition to even more enhanced restrictions that exceed the scope and intent of AB821. If we do not stop them from expanding the ban now, how are we going to stop them from banning Lead Ammunition state-wide? Now is the time to act!

CONTACT INFORMATION FOR THE CA. FISH & GAME COMMISSION:
Next Meeting Location: [[ June 24th & 25th ]]
Yolo Fliers Club
17980 County Road 94B
Woodland, California, 95695

Click on this MAP LINK for driving directions and a detailed map to the meeting location.

Mailing Address:
California Fish and Game Commission
1416 Ninth Street
P.O. Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090

Phone Number:
(916) 653-4899

Fax Number:
(916) 653-5040

E-Mail: (Please include "Expansion of Lead Ammo Ban" in the e-mail subject line.)
Submit written comments, via electronic mail to:
John Carlson, Jr., Executive Director fgc@fgc.ca.gov
Jon K. Fischer, Deputy Executive Director - Regulations and Policy jfischer@fgc.ca.gov
Adrianna Shea, Deputy Executive Director - Special Advisor to the Commissioners ashea@fgc.ca.gov

[truthseeker]

I just e-mail all of them using 10 different e-mail address's.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Lawsuits take years to complete - years where you may not be able to use lead bullets for anything but self defense.

Those would be bad years.

Let's work to stop this up front.

-Gene

I have been instructed to say the following to all game wardens while I am in possession of lead ammo:

"I have been instructed by my attorney never to declare that I am in the process of hunting, however, I do have a valid hunting license and deer tag". If I am ever questioned about possession of lead ammo, it is for self defense purposes.

[Ford8N]

This is bad. I have always said that ammunition is the Achilles Heel of the pro gun movement. It's very clever of the anti gunners to leverage the lead ban to end the supply of cheap ammunition. Sure we can still have ammo but only very expensive "green" ammo. I have already heard stories of long time hunters giving up hunting because of the lead ban and also the cost of "green" ammo. Let's hope we can stop this.

[HunterJim]

Agenda for June 25th http://www.fgc.ca.gov/meetings/2009/062509agd.pdf

Check item #16...jim

[Librarian]

Agenda for June 25th http://www.fgc.ca.gov/meetings/2009/062509agd.pdf

Check item #16...jim
RECEIPT OF PUBLIC TESTIMONY ON PROPOSED ADDITION OF SECTIONS 311.1
AND 507.2, TITLE 14, CCR, RE: METHODS AUTHORIZED FOR TAKING RESIDENT
SMALL GAME AND MIGRATORY UPLAND GAME BIRDS WITHIN THE RANGE OF
THE CALIFORNIA CONDOR. (Note: The adoption hearing is scheduled for August 6,
2009, in Woodland.)


Those refer to taking
jackrabbits and varying hares (genus Lepus);
cottontail rabbits, brush rabbits, pigmy rabbits (genus Sylvilagus);
tree squirrels (genus Sciurus and Tamiasciurus);
with non-lead bullets in condor range "within the area described in 3004.5 of the Fish and Game Code". That item may, however, be the opening needed to discuss the possible expansion of lead-free ammunition requirements.

See http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/new/2009/proposedregs09.asp#311_1

Note that the agenda says any listed item may be taken up on either day in any order.

[bwiese]

Court action certainly isn't ruled out, but the courts are fickle
on stuff like this - especially before a rule is promulgated. We
should do everything we can to stop the rule from happening
in the first place.



I realize that it is much easier to chat about the latest: legal
case/gun bust/DOJ folly/Internet rumor/etc. than to actively
lobby against a Lead Ammunition Ban. Active lobbying is work
and is not that sexy! :eek:

But we really need EVERYONE to pitch-in on this one because
IT IS THAT IMPORTANT!

(Back from vacation in East, or I woulda chimed in earlier...)

ABSOLUTELY. We can avoid court fights if we don't let bad laws and regulations get passed or go on agenda in first place.

Perfect example: would we be fighting the 'safe handgun' Roster in court, if that hadn't passed in the first place?

If we do this properly, The Right People can keep on working on what they're working on without yet adding lead ammo legal fights to their plates. The fact gun orgs like NRA, CRPA and CGF have to fight with our legal teams means we didn't get enough folks out in the field to apply pressure politically in the first place!

That's why we need participation from "all sectors" of Calgunnies here - whether you like reg'd AWs/OLLs, are a hunter, a plinker, a benchrester or a varminter, etc. - THIS AFFECTS US ALL.

WE ALL NEED TO PULL TOGETHER ON THIS WITH 100% COMMITMENT.

Please, check http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert061209.shtml ; read and understand and PARTICIPATE.

Features on your OLL don't matter if there's no reasonably-priced ammo to feed it.



Hey everyone! When was the last-time you saw an alert, that came
from BOTH the NRA and the CRPA???? N E V E R B E F O R E ! ! ! . . .
Maybe this is the start of a new/more effective gun lobby in California?!?

Hooo-yah, I'm glad we're running on all cylinders now. Most glad John Fields & crew are marshalling their forces; Calgunners will be pitching in too.

I am not a hunter, but since this falls under the "incremental plan"
strategy where they take rights by inches, I have, am, and will fight this. All of us who
shoot are threatened by this, so nobody gets a sit this one out pass.

Dee, you just can't say it any better than that.

[BroncoBob]

Crap this is not good. We've got to stop this before it gets any traction.

[tygerpaw]

I know Jim Kellogg, Vice President of the commision, personally. I will urge him to fight this.

You can also email Comments to fgc@fgc.ca.gov

http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/new/2009/311_1ntc.pdf

[bohoki]

geez i hope they arent going to require a license to shoot the dirt

[Fjold]

Their goal is to ban all hunting with lead in California, then all lead bullets for anything and then to pass this along to the rest of the country.

[mastadonn]

The change in methods of take, eliminating lead ammo, would affect small game mammals and migratory upland game birds. So it would include dove, and possibly other birds,quail,chuckar and pheasant in addition to rabbits and Squirrels.

In watching the video of the last commission meeting, it was interesting that the Director of the Department of Fish and Game gave no recommendations when presenting the agenda item. Upon later questioning by the commission members he indicated that the Department had no recommendations as there was no scientific basis for the regulations. That apparently will not stop the commission.

In the previous hearings the commission members indicated that their purpose in adopting the regulations was a step to removing all lead from use "for our own good".

On another note, I know the F&G biologist (now retired) who claims he originally drew the map of the historic condor range. According to him it was drawn on the back of a napkin, over drinks, following a biological conference approximately 30 years ago.

This was not were condors are or could be, it supposedly represented where condors had been in the historical past. He said it was never his intention for this map to be clear determinant of condor habitat, but only as his speculation of where condors had previously been. He said it kind of got out of hand after that and became accepted knowledge.

Similarly the State OFfice of Environmental Health Hazard Awareness (OEHHA) conducted a study 2 years ago to determine the potential for lead transmission from fishing tackle to humans. Turns out to be minimal potential routes of exposure, but you can see how far the lead banners are looking.

In addition to the lead bans on hunting ammunitions I think one our biggest challenges will come from the "Green Initiative" approved last year, in which the DHS now has authority to test and ban consumer products based upon their perceived toxicity. It wouldn't take much for them to find ammunitions toxic.

[hoffmang]

On another note, I know the F&G biologist (now retired) who claims he originally drew the map of the historic condor range. According to him it was drawn on the back of a napkin, over drinks, following a biological conference approximately 30 years ago.


Could you email me as there are certain people who would really like to talk to him? hoffmang at hoffmang dot com.

-Gene

[11Z50]

This is bad. I have always said that ammunition is the Achilles Heel of the pro gun movement. It's very clever of the anti gunners to leverage the lead ban to end the supply of cheap ammunition. Sure we can still have ammo but only very expensive "green" ammo. I have already heard stories of long time hunters giving up hunting because of the lead ban and also the cost of "green" ammo. Let's hope we can stop this.

I am one of those long-time (40 year) CA hunters who is boycotting the idiots at DFG. In fact, I hunt and fish ONLY out of state and will not pay one frikkin penny to DFG.

This is truly a back-door movement to take our guns. My neighbor, who is a taxidermist and professional hunter sees no issue with a lead ammo ban since he shoots less than 100 rounds a year. When I explained to him that if the lead ammo ban takes effect he might not be able to hunt at all, since manufacturers may quit making ammo for most calibers, he changed his attitude.

[series8217]

How does someone end up on the F&G commission?

Can we get the bad guys kicked off?

Michael Sutton is also trying to take away my other hobby (fishing).

His conflicts of interest on that front are being made known, and according to the CCFCC (Central Coast Fisheries Conservation Coalition) he is being investigated by the California Fair Political Practices Commission under suspicion of violating the Political Reform Act (PRA) of 1974.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/ccfcc-applauds-fair-political-practices,837883.shtml


CCFCC Applauds Fair Political Practices Commission Opening Investigation of Fish and Game Commissioner Mike Sutton
SACRAMENTO, Calif. - The following is a statement from the CCFCC:

On Tuesday, May 19, 2009, the California Fair Political Practices Commission disclosed that the Enforcement Division of the Fair Political Practices Commission (the "FPPC") has opened a formal investigation into Fish and Game Commissioner George Michael Sutton. This action is in response to the sworn complaint against Sutton filed by the Central Coast Fisheries Conservation Coalition (CCFCC) and the CCFCC fully supports the FPPC action.

Sutton is charged with violating the Political Reform Act (PRA) of 1974 because of his conflicts of interest on votes on the Marine Life Protection Act (MLPA) while serving on the Fish and Game Commission. "The CCFCC has more aggressive legal avenues to pursue if Commissioner Sutton does not resign," said CCFCC President Melvin de la Motte. "Such measures could result in civil money damages against Sutton, but we are hopeful that he will do the right thing for California."

Specifically, Sutton's action in voting to approve the Draft Master Plan of the MLPA violated the PRA because it was reasonably foreseeable that the decision would have a material financial effect on his own income and on his employer and source of income, the Monterey Bay Aquarium Foundation (Aquarium). As Vice President and founding director of the Aquarium's Center For the Future of the Oceans, Sutton is paid a salary to influence policy and to support efforts to create a network of marine protected areas (MPAs) in California and offshore waters, including fully protected marine reserves.

Had Sutton voted to amend the existing MPAs for the Central Coast (which are included in the Master Plan), he would have been voting to gut or weaken a system of MPAs in which, his employer exults, the Center for the Future of the Oceans, under his stewardship, played a "key role" in having adopted.

Sutton's conflicts do not derive solely from the mere fact that he is a salaried employee of the Aquarium. He is in fact closely connected to many of the key players involved in the process of implementing the MLPA and these connections create conflicts under the Political Reform Act (See Chart).

Sutton also violated the Fish and Game Commission's own conflict code by failing to disclose as required by law his employment with the Aquarium.

Sutton's participation in any Fish and Game Commission decision relating to MPAs or to the establishment of limitations on fishing is prohibited under the PRA and a cease and desist order must be issued restraining Sutton from participating in such decisions.

Photos/Multimedia Gallery Available: http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/mmg.cgi?eid=5973430&lang=en

CCFCC
Mel de la Motte, 805-544-2424 (President)

[7x57]

I am one of those long-time (40 year) CA hunters who is boycotting the idiots at DFG. In fact, I hunt and fish ONLY out of state and will not pay one frikkin penny to DFG.


So tell me; how is that constructive? It sounds to me just exactly as effective as all the people on gunbroker boycotting California to "teach a lesson." We know just how that plays right in to the hands of the antigunners; they couldn't, yet, just ban gun imports into California totally, but maybe gun owners can be gulled into doing it for them. But it seems your boycott, if widely adopted, would do the analog for hunting and fishing.

If the real way to fight the anti-gun crowd is to get more guns into California and make new shooters, then it seems to me that the same is true for hunting and fishing: make new hunters and fishers. But you simply can't do that if you only go out of state, because the bar is too high. You can take someone to a local stream or lake to try fishing without enormous investment. You can take them hunting locally. But if the bar is a trip out of state and an out-of-state license(*), it isn't going to happen.

I think your boycott is essentially a "one generation and out" plan to terminate the tradition. And once lost, I do not believe that it will ever be regained because there will be no one who learns why it is worth fighting for, just as there aren't enough people in Britain with a shooting culture to fight for it even if it suddenly became politically attainable.

To attempt to stay within a mile of the topic, I think the single biggest problem with the lead ban is not the burden on existing hunters--we can manage, and have some motivation (he said, glancing in the general direction of some over-priced Barnes bullets waiting to be burned developing all new loads) to do it. But raising the cost and just plain inconvenience bar for newcomers is deadly.

We need to worry less about ourselves and more about "reproduction." Receiving a tradition always carries with it the obligation to become a tradent and pass it on, and anything that touches that is an act of war.

7x57

(*) Yes, there are exceptions, such as a Colorado out-of-state elk tag costing something like what a California in-state elk tag costs. But elk hunting is not an important avenue for new hunter entry--that would be bird, small game, and deer hunting. Those are more easily and cheaply done locally even with California's fee structure.

[wildhawker]

Perhaps make attendance at the hearing an Offician CGN event? We could coordinate our efforts (incl letters and other corresp) through an event thread. Thoughts?

[Can'thavenuthingood]

The change in methods of take, eliminating lead ammo, would affect small game mammals and migratory upland game birds. So it would include dove, and possibly other birds,quail,chuckar and pheasant in addition to rabbits and Squirrels.

In watching the video of the last commission meeting, it was interesting that the Director of the Department of Fish and Game gave no recommendations when presenting the agenda item. Upon later questioning by the commission members he indicated that the Department had no recommendations as there was no scientific basis for the regulations. That apparently will not stop the commission.

In the previous hearings the commission members indicated that their purpose in adopting the regulations was a step to removing all lead from use "for our own good".

On another note, I know the F&G biologist (now retired) who claims he originally drew the map of the historic condor range. According to him it was drawn on the back of a napkin, over drinks, following a biological conference approximately 30 years ago.

This was not were condors are or could be, it supposedly represented where condors had been in the historical past. He said it was never his intention for this map to be clear determinant of condor habitat, but only as his speculation of where condors had previously been. He said it kind of got out of hand after that and became accepted knowledge.

Similarly the State OFfice of Environmental Health Hazard Awareness (OEHHA) conducted a study 2 years ago to determine the potential for lead transmission from fishing tackle to humans. Turns out to be minimal potential routes of exposure, but you can see how far the lead banners are looking.

I

So the Commission makes Administrative Law based on F&G Departments lack of evidence for or against?
F&G need not even show up as the Commission already has its meetings outcome preplanned and written.

Seems this ought to be void or voidable as in Contract Law since its obviously just doing something without regard to consequences.
Way too much Administrative rule making in the state.

Like fighting a fire, aim at the base of the fire not the flames.

Vick

[6172crew]

Thanks for the heads up Paul!

If you guys don't already know Hawaii has an Ammo ban but no AW ban, you wouldn't know it because the lack of firearms seen. People cant afford ammo there and they cant have surplus.

[Can'thavenuthingood]

In addition to the lead bans on hunting ammunitions I think one our biggest challenges will come from the "Green Initiative" approved last year, in which the DHS now has authority to test and ban consumer products based upon their perceived toxicity. It wouldn't take much for them to find ammunitions toxic.

And now the Feds are in on it also?

Much easier to ban things from a Federal Directive then, especially in the name of Security, Department of.

Vick

[mastadonn]

Sorry for being unclear.

DHS = CA Dept of Health Services, not US Dept. of Homeland Security

[Can'thavenuthingood]

Sorry for being unclear.

DHS = CA Dept of Health Services, not US Dept. of Homeland Security

Thanks for clearing that up. I've been going nuts trying find documentation directing the Feds into this realm.

Lots of interesting reading though.

Back to it.

Vick

[otteray]

Michael Sutton is also trying to take away my other hobby (fishing).

His conflicts of interest on that front are being made known, and according to the CCFCC (Central Coast Fisheries Conservation Coalition) he is being investigated by the California Fair Political Practices Commission under suspicion of violating the Political Reform Act (PRA) of 1974.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/ccfcc-applauds-fair-political-practices,837883.shtml


So, please forgive my serious lack of legal knowledge; but, if he is found at fault, will it somehow negate his previous condor area lead ban recommendations that the Govenator approved; or else at least, maybe, open a door to the goal of loosening the crazy regulations?
Common sense tells me it should... at least it does in my hopeful mind.

[7x57]

As many people as possible should attend the meeting and speak if at all possible. IIRC four people, other than reps from gun/hunting orgs, showed up to speak against the original lead ban.


Aye, and there's the problem:


Note that the agenda says any listed item may be taken up on either day in any order.

It's bad enough that the meeting is Wed & Thurs, possibly the worst possible time for normal folk to attend any two days of anything, but one would have to show up for two days and just wait until the "right" ("wrong") agenda item came up?

This will be re-ally hard to get people to from far away.

Does anyone have more information than that on what would be required to attend?

7x57

[obeygiant]

Anyone have any additional talking points to discuss with the FGC? Here's what I have so far:


There is no scientific evidence that lead ammunition is the source of lead affecting the health of condors released to the wild.
There is no scientific evidence that lead ammunition is a risk to human health and the environment in California.
It would place an undue burden upon all sportsmen and hunters as it would require special ammunition that would be even more costly to purchase.

[dreyna14]

Won't it be nice when the condors are extinct and we don't have to hear anymore about this worthless species?

[nick]

Anyone have any additional talking points to discuss with the FGC? Here's what I have so far:


There is no scientific evidence that lead ammunition is the source of lead affecting the health of condors released to the wild.
There is no scientific evidence that lead ammunition is a risk to human health and the environment in California.
It would place an undue burden upon all sportsmen and hunters as it would require special ammunition that would be even more costly to purchase.


Here's one more. Much more likely sources of lead exist - landfills, dumps, industrial runoff, etc. Now, what's mroe likely - a condor swallowing a bullet, which was never documented tobegin with, or the condor getting lead poisoning from its food previously exposed to lead in ground water, soil, food they consumed, etc.? However, no studies serious studies were done with the goal of a) proving the lead poisoning being a significant danger to condors; and b) if it is a significant threat to condors, where the lead comes from. Which screams political agenda more than anything else, and doesn't hint at any desire to actually protect the condor. Moreover, if the source of lead isn't lead bullets, then this actually endangers the condor by not properly investigating other potential sources of lead.

Oh, and it would be nice if someone actually called those people liars. Not "not being forthright", not any other substitute, but liars, in a matter-of-factly voice. It's a pity we don't call things what they are anymore, thus making them appear less ugly than what they are.

[nick]

Won't it be nice when the condors are extinct and we don't have to hear anymore about this worthless species?

If you watch the video of that meeting, they were already talking about other species being endangered. Don't blame the bird, its only fault is being butt-ugly, blame the liars using it to advance their agenda. Which agenda has little to do with the preservation of the CA condor.

[obeygiant]

Well here's the letter I fired off to them using the one-click messaging center email address.

Dear Fish & Game Commission,

I am writing to ask that you would oppose any efforts to expand the "Lead Ammo Ban" for the following reasons:

* There is no scientific evidence that lead ammunition is the source of lead affecting the health of condors released to the wild.
* There is no scientific evidence that lead ammunition is a risk to human health and the environment in California.
* Much more likely sources of lead exist - landfills, dumps, industrial runoff, etc.
* It would place an undue burden upon all sportsmen and hunters as it would require special ammunition that would be even more costly to purchase.


Thank you for your time,

Name
Address
Phone Number

[DeanW66]

Sorry for being unclear.

DHS = CA Dept of Health Services, not US Dept. of Homeland Security

I believe the newer correct name is the California Department of Public Health (CDPH).

[Librarian]

I believe the newer correct name is the California Department of Public Health (CDPH).

Web (http://www.dhs.ca.gov/) page says 'reorganized' -
http://www.dhs.ca.gov/common/images/CAlogo.gifhttp://www.dhs.ca.gov/common/images/DHCSlogo.gifhttp://www.dhs.ca.gov/common/images/CDPHlogo.gif

[DeanW66]

:thumbsup: thanks for the further clarification.

[gunn]

Here's one more. Much more likely sources of lead exist - landfills, dumps, industrial runoff, etc. Now, what's mroe likely - a condor swallowing a bullet, which was never documented tobegin with, or the condor getting lead poisoning from its food previously exposed to lead in ground water, soil, food they consumed, etc.?

Don't forget tire weights as a source for lead contamination. Oh wait, they are trying to ban that as well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/31/BAJB17TLD7.DTL

EPA has ignored an estimated 3.5 million pounds of lead weights that drop off tire rims and onto U.S. roads every year, according to a coalition of environmental groups that filed the petition.

I wonder how many bullets are considered to be "out there"?
-g

[K5Cruiser]

Won't be able to attend the meeting, so sent my e-mail out.