PDA

View Full Version : Kalifornia "Roster of Handguns Certified For Sale" Question


67siia
06-11-2009, 5:26 PM
:confused: Please help me get a clarification:

If I want to procure from a PRIVATE PARTY an USED handgun with 10 or less round capacity that IS NOT on the ROSTER, can I do the transaction at a FFL as a Private Party Transfer (PPT)?

or, if the USED handgun is not on the Roster I can not buy it nor sell it in Kalifornia?

leelaw
06-11-2009, 5:30 PM
If the seller, a private individual who is a California resident, and you meet at an FFL, you may execute a "private party transfer" through the FFL. This transfer is exempt from the handgun roster.

If a handgun is new or used, if it is not a PPT, then it needs to be on the roster (barring other exceptions, like single-shot)

Librarian
06-11-2009, 5:40 PM
... see also http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/The_Safe_Handgun_List#Effects

67siia
06-12-2009, 7:28 AM
Leelaw, many thanks for the clarification, now I see a lot more opportunities to enhance my collection.

Librarian, I think (correct me if wrong) you can not bring it from out of state.

9mmlaw
06-12-2009, 7:37 AM
Man this stuff i confusing to me...So forgive me.

Just to verify:
I'm buying a handgun that is not on the "approved list" (Kimber Warrior-- not the Warrior II), from someone that is not a family member and not a FFL dealer, this person is also out of state.

I can have this person ship the pistol to a FFL and transfer it over to me?

Is that correct?

I've searched and searched-- I called DOJ and was told no by one person, called back to get the name of the person just spoke to... and got a yes from another person. I'm thoroughly confused.

No, barring some exemption like LE or family, you cannot transfer a non-rostered handgun from out of state.

Librarian
06-12-2009, 1:47 PM
Leelaw, many thanks for the clarification, now I see a lot more opportunities to enhance my collection.

Librarian, I think (correct me if wrong) you can not bring it from out of state.

No, you're not wrong - did I say that someplace? As Leelaw carefully wrote, California private party transaction requires both seller and buyer to be California residents. If that isn't true, it's not a California PPT, it's an interstate transfer, and then the handgun must be on the Roster for non-LEO.

Librarian
06-12-2009, 5:02 PM
Maybe I've been looking at this for too long, but the Roster of Handguns stuff looks really simple to me.

In all cases below, the buyer/transferee is a non-law-enforcement CA resident and only a CA resident.

1) Buys a handgun from a CA FFL
-- must be on the Roster.

2) Buys a handgun from another CA resident (ANY other CA resident, including LEO) at a CA FFL
-- this is a CA 'private party transfer'; Roster does not apply.

3) Buys a handgun from a NON-CA resident at a CA FFL
-- this is an interstate transfer; must be on Roster.

4) Buys a handgun from a NON-CA resident (or NON-CA FFL), shipped to a CA FFL
-- this is an interstate transfer; must be on Roster.

5) Receives a handgun from immediate family (grandparent, parent, child) who LIVE IN CA
-- Roster does not apply, FFL not required, file OPLAW form.

6) Receives a handgun from immediate family (grandparent, parent, child) who DO NOT LIVE IN CA
-- Roster does not apply, Federal law says FFL required because this is an interstate transfer.

7) Inherits a handgun from a deceased immediate family (grandparent, parent, child) member
-- Roster does not apply, FFL not required (exception to Federal interstate transfer), file OPLAW form.

See the thread http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81127 and that thread's descendant at the Calguns Foundation Wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/The_Safe_Handgun_List).

There's lots to complain about in the 'should' department, but in almost all cases, this is the way it actually works.

sportsman
06-13-2009, 1:00 PM
if you are given a hand gun from a grandparent that does live in ca. does it have to go to a ffl

ke6guj
06-13-2009, 1:04 PM
if you are given a hand gun from a grandparent that does live in ca. does it have to go to a fflno, but you do have to file an intrafamily registration form and send it to CADOJ along with $19.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf

sportsman
06-13-2009, 1:12 PM
what if grandparents passed away

ke6guj
06-13-2009, 1:40 PM
what if grandparents passed awaySame, still need to do the intrafamily/op-law form.

Only difference is that if grandparent was an out-of-state resident, passed away, and the handguns were bequethed to you, then you would be able to receive them direct without having to use an in-state FFL because that specific type of transfer is exempt from federal law requiring you to use an FFL.

67siia
06-13-2009, 1:42 PM
librarian, that's a great post - thanks!

Maybe I've been looking at this for too long, but the Roster of Handguns stuff looks really simple to me.

In all cases below, the buyer/transferee is a non-law-enforcement CA resident and only a CA resident.

1) Buys a handgun from a CA FFL
-- must be on the Roster.

2) Buys a handgun from another CA resident (ANY other CA resident, including LEO) at a CA FFL
-- this is a CA 'private party transfer'; Roster does not apply.

3) Buys a handgun from a NON-CA resident at a CA FFL
-- this is an interstate transfer; must be on Roster.

4) Buys a handgun from a NON-CA resident (or NON-CA FFL), shipped to a CA FFL
-- this is an interstate transfer; must be on Roster.

5) Receives a handgun from immediate family (grandparent, parent, child) who LIVE IN CA
-- Roster does not apply, FFL not required, file OPLAW form.

6) Receives a handgun from immediate family (grandparent, parent, child) who DO NOT LIVE IN CA
-- Roster does not apply, Federal law says FFL required because this is an interstate transfer.

7) Inherits a handgun from a deceased immediate family (grandparent, parent, child) member
-- Roster does not apply, FFL not required (exception to Federal interstate transfer), file OPLAW form.

See the thread http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81127 and that thread's descendant at the Calguns Foundation Wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/The_Safe_Handgun_List).

There's lots to complain about in the 'should' department, but in almost all cases, this is the way it actually works.

sportsman
06-13-2009, 2:49 PM
just wanted to say thanks for the information calguns is awsome

cracktheskye
06-13-2009, 3:19 PM
Hey librarian-- one thing that I looked for that you didn't address was this:

If a CA resident (still holding vali CA driver's license) that temporaily resides in another state and has obtained an off-roster handgun, and wishes to sell to someone in CA, is this a legal transfer assuming it is done at a CA FFL? I know that when I was living in Utah and shopping around, you could purchase a handgun with a CA driver's license as long as you have proof of residency in the state of Utah... At least the couple FFL's I talked to seemed to think so!

Librarian
06-13-2009, 7:08 PM
Hey librarian-- one thing that I looked for that you didn't address was this:

If a CA resident (still holding vali CA driver's license) that temporaily resides in another state and has obtained an off-roster handgun, and wishes to sell to someone in CA, is this a legal transfer assuming it is done at a CA FFL? I know that when I was living in Utah and shopping around, you could purchase a handgun with a CA driver's license as long as you have proof of residency in the state of Utah... At least the couple FFL's I talked to seemed to think so!

Residency in a state is tricky.

The simplest means, but not the only one, for an FFL to determine your actual state of residence is you having a driver's license or state ID card from that state.

Usually, if you're in UT and all you have is CA ID, you don't 'live' in UT. I don't know what reasoning those UT FFLs were using to reach their conclusion, but it's their license to risk. If they think you live there, then likely both of you are covered, even if wrong. BATFE may have a differing opinion about 'knowledge and intent', and that's not something I would personally do nor would I recommend. CA residents, in my opinion, are restricted to 'window shopping' while out of state, and generally must do their handgun transfers at a CA FFL.

If you are military and have PCS orders to a location in CA, CA says you're a CA resident for many things, including buying guns. Other states may rule similarly, I don't know.

So, if you acquire a handgun, so far as you know legally as a resident of another state, then that handgun is indistinguishable from one moved here by a new resident.

Yes, you can sell it PPT.

ETA: the reason that wasn't covered in post 7 is that it isn't a Roster question, it's a 'buy a gun outside of CA and bring it back' question. The generic answer is 'if you own it legally, and it is not a CA assault weapon (and not forbidden by some other CA law besides the Roster), then you can become a CA resident and bring it and transfer it to any eligible CA resident.

cracktheskye
06-14-2009, 1:37 AM
Residency in a state is tricky.

The simplest means, but not the only one, for an FFL to determine your actual state of residence is you having a driver's license or state ID card from that state.

Usually, if you're in UT and all you have is CA ID, you don't 'live' in UT. I don't know what reasoning those UT FFLs were using to reach their conclusion, but it's their license to risk. If they think you live there, then likely both of you are covered, even if wrong. BATFE may have a differing opinion about 'knowledge and intent', and that's not something I would personally do nor would I recommend. CA residents, in my opinion, are restricted to 'window shopping' while out of state, and generally must do their handgun transfers at a CA FFL.

If you are military and have PCS orders to a location in CA, CA says you're a CA resident for many things, including buying guns. Other states may rule similarly, I don't know.

So, if you acquire a handgun, so far as you know legally as a resident of another state, then that handgun is indistinguishable from one moved here by a new resident.

Yes, you can sell it PPT.

ETA: the reason that wasn't covered in post 7 is that it isn't a Roster question, it's a 'buy a gun outside of CA and bring it back' question. The generic answer is 'if you own it legally, and it is not a CA assault weapon (and not forbidden by some other CA law besides the Roster), then you can become a CA resident and bring it and transfer it to any eligible CA resident.

Thanks for the answer! I should have clarified when referring to Utah FFL's establishing-- the two or three that I talked to said that they needed license showing age (CA DL) and recent documentation of residency (gas bill, electricity bill, etc.) in order to sell while I was living there.