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Pablo
05-13-2005, 12:15 PM
What I'm trying to do is build a 1911 handgun, but I would like to know:

1.About the legality of this.
2.If there's is any special process/fees that I need to cover besides the FFL transfer.
3.How the dealer is going to do the "DROS" since the "Roaster of Handguns Certified for Sale" doesn't list any receiver/frame.

I already sent an e-mail to the CADJ but I would like to know the opinions/experiences from people who have tried this before.

Thanks a lot!

bwiese
05-13-2005, 12:46 PM
Marco...

Sorry, it's almost impossible to build a handgun yourself in CA now - unless you already owned the frame before the 'safe gun' laws passed. A CA FFL can't sell you a frame.

You could get around this if you were able to find a frame that could be transferred to you via a private-party transfer, or are modifying a complete gun you purchased already (and which passed the safety test).

Also, if a person outside of CA built one, and he moved to CA and became a resident, he could transfer that gun to you via a private party transfer also.

Remember, since Jan 2001, you cannot buy a gun that's not on the 'safe gun' list. Since the frame is not a complete gun, it couldn't have undergone the various drop tests required for CA certification.

If you manufacture a new frame/gun (i.e., mill out a 1911 frame on your CNC machine) you are committing a misdemeanor (PC 12125) by manufacturing an 'unsafe handgun', even if it's just for yourself and will never be sold. There are a few exceptions for LEO use, etc. or if it's specifically intended for DOJ testing ( for which you'd need to secure prior permission.) But it's essentially prohibited.

The one exemption is for single-action handguns holding five or more rounds, with a barrel of 3" or longer, and an overall minimum gun length (measured along barrel axis) of 7.5".

So you're just gonna have to buy a CA-certified 1911 and work on it from there even if you have to throw all but the frame away.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

icormba
05-13-2005, 1:03 PM
I think I saw someone post a Caspian frame in the for sale forum?

Pablo
05-14-2005, 1:34 AM
Thanks for the reply guys... Bill as always thank you for all the info! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jester
05-20-2005, 2:42 PM
Marco, Turners has Springfield mil-spec 1911's for $449 right now. They are SWEET!

Pablo
05-21-2005, 1:28 AM
Thanks "Jester"... I end up buying a Springfield TRP! This is my first 1911 now I just need to wait 10 days!!! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

jimx
05-21-2005, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by bwiese:

Also, if a person outside of CA built one, and he moved to CA and became a resident, he could transfer that gun to you via a private party transfer also.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Slight clarification

That’s only true if the gun was built on a complete frame. (One that has to go through an ffl to get)

If the frame was built a private party it can not be sold. (Someone finishes off one of the 80% frames or builds one from scratch)

Some people say it is ok to sell a home built but even if that was true you would have fed tax issues and good luck getting an ffl to do the transfer…

s281c
05-21-2005, 9:04 PM
Originally posted by jimx:
If the frame was built a private party it can not be sold. (Someone finishes off one of the 80% frames or builds one from scratch)

Some people say it is ok to sell a home built but even if that was true you would have fed tax issues and good luck getting an ffl to do the transfer…

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't it against the law to build a working firearm out of a 80% frame(un-serialized)? Unless of couse you have a manufacturer license......

So doesn't that make it a moot point about selling it?

Anonymous Coward
05-22-2005, 9:12 AM
A non-licensed individual according to ATF can build a firearm. See BATF FAQ (they haven't updated it since nov 04...)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a7

In california PC12125 is prohibiting you from building an "unsafe handgun", but rifles are OK (if no assault weapon).

s281c
05-22-2005, 9:58 AM
Originally posted by AnonymousCoward:
A non-licensed individual according to ATF can build a firearm. See BATF FAQ (they haven't updated it since nov 04...)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a7

In california PC12125 is prohibiting you from building an "unsafe handgun", but rifles are OK (if no assault weapon).

I've always taken that to mean that you can build a legally to own gun, but it has to be from a serialized receiver or frame, not from a 80% or any block of metal.

Is it not illegal to own a newly manufactured firearm without a seial number? Wouldn't that be what you have if you started from scratch?

jimx
05-22-2005, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by S281c:

I've always taken that to mean that you can build a legally to own gun, but it has to be from a serialized receiver or frame, not from a 80% or any block of metal.

Is it not illegal to own a newly manufactured firearm without a seial number? Wouldn't that be what you have if you started from scratch?
As far as the ATF is concerned a serialized receiver is the gun. The people that get a stripped Fab 10 lower are not building, they are putting one together.
Now if you have the skill you could build a fab 10 type lower from a 80% or if you were in AZ a 80% AR lower. The fact that there is no SN is ok.
As long as it is legal for you to own you can “build” it. In CA you can not build a hand gun or an ak, most else where you can. No where can you build one if you are a felon or insane. – Legal to buy – Legal to build-

Do a Google search for 80% AR lowers, many sites explain the laws on building.

If I were to sell you a fal that I built with a 80% upper I would need to remove or destroy the receiver.

Anonymous Coward
05-22-2005, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by S281c:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AnonymousCoward:
A non-licensed individual according to ATF can build a firearm. See BATF FAQ (they haven't updated it since nov 04...)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a7

In california PC12125 is prohibiting you from building an "unsafe handgun", but rifles are OK (if no assault weapon).

I've always taken that to mean that you can build a legally to own gun, but it has to be from a serialized receiver or frame, not from a 80% or any block of metal.

Is it not illegal to own a newly manufactured firearm without a seial number? Wouldn't that be what you have if you started from scratch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a copy of a letter from BATF that answers this (80% build and serial number)

http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/bigtoys/law/1.jpg
http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/bigtoys/law/2.jpg
http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/bigtoys/law/3.jpg

As far as selling the receiver you build: From what I've heard (IANAL this is not legal advice) is that you can sell the firearm. The only thing you cannot do is build one with the intention to sell it. Also if you sell a number of these per year, you might be seen as somebody who is in the business of manufacturing firearms and you need a license.