PDA

View Full Version : why do so many come in here and BASH COPS


Pages : [1] 2

goathead
06-06-2009, 2:48 PM
every time i come in the area to read a post some one is always bashing cops

it says LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a question for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner
not quickly bash a cop than jump out of the LEO area. why even have this area, cops are people too and great people who do a hard job

haodoken
06-06-2009, 3:09 PM
It's because those folks can't or don't care about following this forum's rules.

haodoken
06-06-2009, 3:15 PM
Cleanup.

See...cop bashing comes from people like the quote above. Question answered. The internet gives the anonymity that people don't have in real life. Would they actually go to a LEO and tell them to their faces? Probably not.

goathead
06-06-2009, 3:18 PM
See...cop bashing comes from people like the quote above. Question answered. The internet gives the anonymity that people don't have in real life. Would they actually go to a LEO and tell them to their faces? Probably not.

1++ and they have a run in with a LEO and then they blame all the LEOs here
like it there fault,,, people just dont like getting caught

homer simpson once said " its everyone's fault but mine"

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 3:20 PM
I know what you mean. I've visited several forums including this one where you are suppose to be able to ask a Cop a question, and receive an answer. Then, end of story. However after the question is posed, there will be a string of posts that begin with the sentence "I'm not LEO, but here's what I think. Or here's what I would do in that situation. Then when a bonified LEO does get an answer in, Someone will tell the LEO that he's wrong, or that's not what an LEO in a bar told him, or that he must be proud of himself for giving that answer, or that his answer won't hold up in court, and so forth and so on.


I wonder if Proctologists have such a forum where if a non-Proctologist asks a question, a bunch of forum members jump in and say: "I'm not a Proctologist, but here's how I would approach the situation. When a Proctologists does squeeze in an answer, someone counters with; "We'll I'd sue you then, Your are a disgrace to Proctology. You should not be in this line of work!"


Just wondering.

goathead
06-06-2009, 3:26 PM
I know what you mean. I've visited several forums including this one where you are suppose to be able to ask a Cop a question, and receive an answer. Then, end of story. However after the question is posed, there will be a string of posts that begin with the sentence "I'm not LEO, but here's what I think. Or here's what I would do in that situation. Then when a bonified LEO does get an answer in, Someone will tell the LEO that he's wrong, or that's not what an LEO in a bar told him, or that he must be proud of himself for giving that answer, or that his answer won't hold up in court, and so forth and so on.


I wonder if Proctologists have such a forum where if a non-Proctologist asks a question, a bunch of forum members jump in and say: "I'm not a Proctologist, but here's how I would approach the situation. When a Proctologists does squeeze in an answer, someone counters with; "We'll I'd sue you then, Your are a disgrace to Proctology. You should not be in this line of work!"


Just wondering.

:rofl2:

haodoken
06-06-2009, 3:32 PM
Can't wait for the Cop Bashers to start pouring in on this thread! Let the fireworks begin!

what2be
06-06-2009, 3:44 PM
Can't wait for the Cop Bashers to start pouring in on this thread! Let the fireworks begin!

On the contrary, I have friends that are LEO's and they are good people. And Ive run into bad cops as well. The problem is nobody remembers a GOOD encounter with a LEO, just the bad ones, which all the sudden blankets all cops as bad.

There have been a few times ive bashed cops in this forum, but mostly for things that I saw as a sensless tragedy. Like the bart cop that thought he had his taser and it was his gun. Im sure he feels remorseful, heck, it ruined his carreer, he lost his job, got death threats, etc, but on the flip side, the guy he shot shouldnt have been drawing attention to himself to get the police involved. Regardless, he shouldnt have died either.

In general, I think too many people run across LEO's that nick them on petty issues (seatbelt ticket, etc) and that gives people a sour taste in their mouth. (IMO)

I think too some people have a problem with authority, and that causes aminosity against LEO's as well.
Again, just my opinion.

A cop friend told me what he does is he starts off polite to the person he stopped, and if their attitude is good, so is his, if they get antagonostic or start up on the defensive, his attitude comes right back at them the same way. He calls it the attitude test. Basically, he will treat you the same you treat him.

ST5MF
06-06-2009, 4:09 PM
every time i come in the area to read a post some one is always bashing cops

it says LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a question for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner
not quickly bash a cop than jump out of the LEO area why even have this area, cops are people too and great people who do a hard job

Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 4:15 PM
what2be Wrote:
"I think too some people have a problem with authority, and that causes aminosity against LEO's as well.
Again, just my opinion.

A cop friend told me what he does is he starts off polite to the person he stopped, and if their attitude is good, so is his, if they get antagonostic or start up on the defensive, his attitude comes right back at them the same way. He calls it the attitude test. Basically, he will treat you the same you treat him."


Well let's look at these. If it is common fact that LEO's are authorities, and by legal defination "In Authority", and "Authorized" to do certain things, what would suggest as a solution or alternative?

As your cop friend does, so did I. I found that the most effective way to deal with beligerent people was to to what I was taught in the adademies I attended. "Kill them with Kindness." Although tempting, I never threw their attitude back at them. I just became sweet as honey, which wound them up even more, I was able to do this with a disar4ming smile and a clam voice. We were trained in "Verbal Judo." It served me well for 30+ years.
__________________

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 4:18 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...


How can anybody here answer this question for you? Is it just hyperbole? Are your just venting? Is it retorical? Here's my advice. Write him a letter and ask HIM. This is the only way you will receive a direct answer.

goathead
06-06-2009, 4:19 PM
The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...

you just proved my point

GuyW
06-06-2009, 4:28 PM
I wonder if Proctologists have such a forum where if a non-Proctologist asks a question, a bunch of forum members jump in and say: "I'm not a Proctologist, but here's how I would approach the situation. When a Proctologists does squeeze in an answer, someone counters with; "We'll I'd sue you then, Your are a disgrace to Proctology. You should not be in this line of work!"


Just wondering.

But of course - its part of human nature...

One can substitute any number of roles in that hypothetical: attorney, traffic engineer, contractor, home remodeler, tax-preparer...

True bashing isn't "allowed", and hopeful differences of opinion aren't viewed as bashing...
.

GuyW
06-06-2009, 4:33 PM
As of right now CHP has lost my trust...

Katrina was supposed to fill that role...
.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 4:36 PM
you just proved my point

Yep. Pretty much.

I'm going to go on my soap box for jsut a couple of seconds here so bear with me please. These comments do not apply to everyone here. Only to a select few. Take a moment to ponder them.

The LEO's and attorneys that are members of this forum share a "like mind" wiht the rest of you. We are here to participate, answer your questions, and obtain information that we can not get elsewhere. OLL's for instance. We support the second ammendment. We support CCW. We support firearm shooting and ownership. We may be the silent minority, but we do come here to help and get help. Why then do certain menbers of this forum take advantage of their annonimity to insult, chastise, criticise, and berate us? We are on you side. When you do these things to us, you are not fostering a partnership between us. You are driving a wedge between us. How can any LEO or attorney objectively answer how you were falsely arrested, wrongfuly charged, maliciously prosecuted, and incorrectly found guilty, without a full review of the minute details of your particular case. How can I correctly discuss the height vs weight ratio of a given LEO?

In closing, remember when you seek free legal advice; you get what you pay for.

Thank you for your kind attention.

Jonathan Doe
06-06-2009, 4:42 PM
They can say whatever they want to say, because their 1st Amendment rights are protected by LEOs and military who are willing to give their lives to defend them.

If any citizens have a problem with an LEO, he/she can write or call the watch commander of the station and file a complaint. The watch commanders are obligated to follow up. On the other hand, if you feel good about the encounter, also let the watch commanders know. I have a few commendations and complaints in my books, like a formal complaint from the National Organization for Women, and civil right violation law suits and so on.

GuyW
06-06-2009, 4:45 PM
Or maybe

They can say whatever they want to say, because their 1st Amendment rights are protected by the 2nd and attendant hardware

....but Kestryll will be quick to point out that this are his private forums, and the 1st Am isn't in force here...
.

andrewj
06-06-2009, 4:50 PM
Most of my encounters with LEO's have been unpleasant. They were rude and hell bent on trying to incriminate me with something that I may or may not have done. I maintain courtesy and compliance while keeping my output to the minimum. They have still given me a hard time. That is why I have a tough time trusting officers now. Dont get me wrong, I do realize there are courteous and upstanding officers out there (especially LEO's that are calgunners) as I have dealt with them too, but I am more concerned with looking out for my freedom than the officer's feelings.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 4:51 PM
But of course - its part of human nature...

One can substitute any number of roles in that hypothetical: attorney, traffic engineer, contractor, home remodeler, tax-preparer...


.




Then a sense of mind disicipline must come into play to control this part of human nature, if one wants to continue communication with the attorney, traffic engineer, contractor, home remodeler, and tax preparer...
My "Human Nature" has wanted me to stangle some people, but I put my hands in my pockets when the urge arose. Likewise it's best to put one's tongue back in one's mouth when the urge to act on this "Human Nature" comes to the surface. As Ron White said, "I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability."

GuyW
06-06-2009, 5:15 PM
Then a sense of mind discipline must come into play to control this part of human nature, if one wants to continue communication....


Yes.

And the RKBA community will catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

So (IMHO) forum members must slow down and separate in their minds and posts, that "Bad Occurrence A" didn't (probably) personally involve "CalGuns LEO #32", and thus wildly accusing _individual_ LEOs isn't accurate nor productive.

OTOH, we must all recognize that CAs laws have created a large well of anger, mistrust and resentment in our community against all levels of government, that occasionally is expressed in counterproductive ways.

.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 5:27 PM
"OTOH, we must all recognize that CAs laws have created a large well of anger, mistrust and resentment in our community against all levels of government, that occasionally is expressed in counterproductive ways."


I will agree with this, and speaking only for myself, but probably for others as well. We are here to attempt in our own small ways to bridge this chasim. One may have a hatred, mistrust, and resentment of doctors. But, when a doctor is trying to sew up a wound that was self-inflicted, it's probalby best not to scream at him and slap his hands while he is holding a scalpel over you.

scr83jp
06-06-2009, 5:29 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...You sound just like the people I dealt with for 3+ decades just because you met an officer with a tude don't judge everyone the same way.I met lots of criminals with attitudes but I didn't treat everyone like crap just because of one adam henry.

caoboy
06-06-2009, 5:35 PM
On the contrary, I have friends that are LEO's and they are good people. And Ive run into bad cops as well. The problem is nobody remembers a GOOD encounter with a LEO, just the bad ones, which all the sudden blankets all cops as bad.

There have been a few times ive bashed cops in this forum, but mostly for things that I saw as a sensless tragedy. Like the bart cop that thought he had his taser and it was his gun. Im sure he feels remorseful, heck, it ruined his carreer, he lost his job, got death threats, etc, but on the flip side, the guy he shot shouldnt have been drawing attention to himself to get the police involved. Regardless, he shouldnt have died either.

In general, I think too many people run across LEO's that nick them on petty issues (seatbelt ticket, etc) and that gives people a sour taste in their mouth. (IMO)

I think too some people have a problem with authority, and that causes aminosity against LEO's as well.
Again, just my opinion.

A cop friend told me what he does is he starts off polite to the person he stopped, and if their attitude is good, so is his, if they get antagonostic or start up on the defensive, his attitude comes right back at them the same way. He calls it the attitude test. Basically, he will treat you the same you treat him.


I had a GREAT run in with a LEO.

I was pulled over for a rolling stop. I freaked out, because right after he stopped me, another LEO pulled up, turned his lights on and put his spot light on the car. Then, while the first LEO was running my info, ANOTHER LEO showed up!! I was freaking out, thinking I'm going to jail for some reason, and best thing that happens is I get let off with a ticket.


Officer came back, handed me my stuff, and said "I'm not here to take your money, this is a warning and you need to sign it, it just lets my superior know I pulled you over, and you can frame it or throw it away, whatever you want. Have a nice day, don't do it again.

That's my good luck warning, and it is still in my car. That happened 2 superbowls ago, I remember because I was listening to the game at the time when he pulled me over. :thumbsup:

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 5:55 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...

I empathize with your dilema. If I were you I would do one of two things to teach them a lesson they won't soon forget.
1. Absolutely refuse to drive you car on any public highway in CA. Turn in you license, to cut of this source of excessive revenue. Sell you car to cut off the outrageous registration fees that are no doubt being squandered. Cancel your vehicle insurance, and save the money.

2. Then I'd move to a state where I had the utmost respect for the LEO's there, where their training is supurb, and don't hand out tickets without provocation. BTW, what state would that be? Because I'm considering a move myself.

Triad
06-06-2009, 6:00 PM
In the short time this forum has been open to us, the things I have read on here makes be believe this forum would be better off shut down.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 6:04 PM
In the short time this forum has been open to us, the things I have read on here makes be believe this forum would be better off shut down.

Reluctantly, I must agree. Unless there is a massive turn-around in how it's conducted and moderated, to ensue it remains in strict complaiance with the "No Bashing" rules; then perhaps one must throw the baby out with the bathwater. Perhaps it has served it's purpose. There's always www.askanofficer.com.

Jonathan Doe
06-06-2009, 6:12 PM
Judging entire LEO community by one negative encounter is not a healthy thing.

If one had several encounters, I wonder what the nature of contacts were. Speeding several times? Rolling stop several times? I wonder why one keeps breaking the law to have that many contacts with LEO's in the first place.

socaldsal
06-06-2009, 6:59 PM
Yep. Pretty much.

I'm going to go on my soap box for jsut a couple of seconds here so bear with me please. These comments do not apply to everyone here. Only to a select few. Take a moment to ponder them.

The LEO's and attorneys that are members of this forum share a "like mind" wiht the rest of you. We are here to participate, answer your questions, and obtain information that we can not get elsewhere. OLL's for instance. We support the second ammendment. We support CCW. We support firearm shooting and ownership. We may be the silent minority, but we do come here to help and get help. Why then do certain menbers of this forum take advantage of their annonimity to insult, chastise, criticise, and berate us? We are on you side. When you do these things to us, you are not fostering a partnership between us. You are driving a wedge between us. How can any LEO or attorney objectively answer how you were falsely arrested, wrongfuly charged, maliciously prosecuted, and incorrectly found guilty, without a full review of the minute details of your particular case. How can I correctly discuss the height vs weight ratio of a given LEO?

In closing, remember when you seek free legal advice; you get what you pay for.

Thank you for your kind attention.

+1

Most of my friends that I knew in the military went on to become police officers afterward. After serving with a few of them overseas and at home, for years, I'd trust any one of them to make a righteous call. The same old stereotypes and molds never go away, but really guys, if they're LEO, and they're on here, and actively participating, and give out info, don't turn them away.

Funny, when I was in the military I was always thought to have come from a bad neighborhood, poor family, didn't have any useful skills for "real" work, and useless because I dropped out of college. Yea that's like saying "all LEO's" this and that. Anyone have an idea how many times guys actually say, "Hey the new guy is an idiot" away from the public eye?

One bad officer does not equal everyone who is a LEO, like one private from the south does not equal the US Military.

Personally I could give a f what you're shooting at the range, a AR15/OLL/M4gery build or a straight up AK is wicked cool. Hell if anyone has a GAU that you can wheel up to the firing line I'd give a $100 on the spot to press that button for a quick second. That's a big difference from finding AK's in the back of a van, LBV's, duct tape, quicklime, and a wriggling burlap bag. Context is everything.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 8:17 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I be so bold as to direct you attention to this? You did read and agree to it before posting didn't you?

1. This forum is for Calguns LEO members and those who would like to ask questions in a civil manner.

2. This forum is to give our LEO members a place to share their stories, pictures and videos as well as answer serious questions from the membership.

3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

4. Post denigrating or insulting our LEO members will be removed and the poster will no longer be able to access this forum.

5. Questions for LEOs should be both civil and serious. Questions like 'Why do you thugs..' will get you removed and possibly banned. Frivolous questions will be deleted.
6. 'Cop Bashing' will NOT be tolerated in this forum at all.

7. In addition to these special rules, the standard rules still apply here as well

goathead
06-06-2009, 8:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I be so bold as to direct you attention to this? You did read and agree to it before posting didn't you?

1. This forum is for Calguns LEO members and those who would like to ask questions in a civil manner.

2. This forum is to give our LEO members a place to share their stories, pictures and videos as well as answer serious questions from the membership.

3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

4. Post denigrating or insulting our LEO members will be removed and the poster will no longer be able to access this forum.

5. Questions for LEOs should be both civil and serious. Questions like 'Why do you thugs..' will get you removed and possibly banned. Frivolous questions will be deleted.
6. 'Cop Bashing' will NOT be tolerated in this forum at all.

7. In addition to these special rules, the standard rules still apply here as well

AMEN

matrix056
06-06-2009, 8:51 PM
Everyone wants to bash LEO's until they call 911......

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 9:12 PM
Everyone wants to bash LEO's until they call 911......


Perhaps this will shed a little light on the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL5P4tkOpTA

ZirconJohn
06-06-2009, 9:21 PM
Perhaps this will shed a little light on the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL5P4tkOpTA

Haha... That's a funny video!:smilielol5:

TRICKSTER
06-06-2009, 9:53 PM
What I don't understand is why these people come here to bash cops that are supporting many of the same causes that they believe in. As Police Officers, they are exempt from many of the foolish gun laws that most people complain about. They could just say sc**w you, if you feel that way, why should I waist my time fighting for you over laws that don't pertain to me. Instead these officers support the rights of gun owners, support Calguns and other pro- gun groups and get bashed for their efforts. I am just glad that the cops on Calguns have shown integrity and honor by not letting these ignorant comments change the way they feel about gun owners.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 9:59 PM
What I don't understand is why these people come here to bash cops that are supporting many of the same causes that they believe in. As Police Officers, they are exempt from many of the foolish gun laws that most people complain about. They could just say sc**w you, if you feel that way, why should I waist my time fighting for you over laws that don't pertain to me. Instead these officers support the rights of gun owners, support Calguns and other pro- gun groups and get bashed for their efforts. I am just glad that the cops on Calguns have shown integrity and honor by not letting these ignorant comments change the way they feel about gun owners.

You got it Bucko. Seems like many members here forget that the LEO's on this entire website are of like mind, and these are the LEO's that they should not be alienating. What is it they taught me in boot camp? Oh yeah, don't sh** in your own fox hole, and don't pee in your mess kit.

elSquid
06-06-2009, 10:31 PM
As your cop friend does, so did I. I found that the most effective way to deal with beligerent people was to to what I was taught in the adademies I attended. "Kill them with Kindness." Although tempting, I never threw their attitude back at them. I just became sweet as honey, which wound them up even more, I was able to do this with a disar4ming smile and a clam voice. We were trained in "Verbal Judo." It served me well for 30+ years.

For some reason, this video came to mind.

BTW, it's not work safe, due to language. But it's funny as heck.

NSFW=NSFCGN, but it was funny :) ~rkt

-- Michael

yzernie
06-06-2009, 10:36 PM
I'm always humored by the I know more about the law than you cops do mentality. When ever I'm on patrol and I come across people who bash my troops I politely encourage them to join us for a ride-a-long and get a first hand look at what goes on during a shift. The looks I get and the replies that flow out of their mouths are truly humorous. I wish I would have written them all down because over the course of my career I could have had thousands by now.

Flap your gums, call me names, hurl insults at me, belittle me or even calling my mom a biatch and I will just laugh at you. Comedy at its finest!!

goathead
06-06-2009, 10:39 PM
I'm always humored by the I know more about the law than you cops do mentality. When ever I'm on patrol and I come across people who bash my troops I politely encourage them to join us for a ride-a-long and get a first hand look at what goes on during a shift. The looks I get and the replies that flow out of their mouths are truly humorous. I wish I would have written them all down because over the course of my career I could have had thousands by now.

Flap your gums, call me names, hurl insults at me, belittle me or even calling my mom a biatch and I will just laugh at you. Comedy at its finest!!

you missed it the mods came in and deleted most of the bad ones already
i could not believe how bad it got

nobody33
06-06-2009, 10:41 PM
Before I was a cop I thought that all law abiding citizens should be able to CCW, and there shouldn't be unreasonable restrictions like a AW ban (and all the crap the state makes non LEO's go through).

After becoming a cop I felt the same way.

But to be honest after a year or so ago starting to participate in ARF and calguns, my opinion is starting to change. Mostly because the UOC people and the government consipricy people. I love America. I feel this is the best system we have. Yeah there's some stuff that's messed up and should be changed, but no one has it better. I think there are a few people on the fringe here and extremists who hate America just as any psycho liberal does. Those people scare me. Those people hoarding thousands of rounds of 223 and tons of illegal AW's scare me even more.

I still think people should get CCW, but everyday here some people try and show me that the general public isn't ready. Thankfully, I realize that they are the extremists, and not the common people. But they have no idea how much they hurt the 2A cause. They do more damage than any of the gun haters will ever do.

And don't forge the internet tough guy factor. Half the people whining about LEO's would be the first to call 911 (us) at the sign of trouble.

BigDogatPlay
06-06-2009, 10:41 PM
Instead these officers support the rights of gun owners, support Calguns and other pro- gun groups and get bashed for their efforts. I am just glad that the cops on Calguns have shown integrity and honor by not letting these ignorant comments change the way they feel about gun owners.

+1 and well said.

This particular forum should not be shut down. I've been bashed (verbally and physically) a lot worse than I've ever seen in these pages.

There always seems to be an undercurrent of fundemental distrust between the taxpaying public and LEOs. That is particularly true when firearms ownership is on the table. I've seen it in action in other forums. In California it's worse because LEOs get to purchase things no one else can. That situation, by the way, blows... it did when I was a LEO and still does now.

If a poster who has taken what looks and feels like an undeserved rogering from a LEO wants to vent about it, why should I object? I wasn't the one who did the rogering.

ST5MF
06-06-2009, 10:50 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...

I empathize with your dilema. If I were you I would do one of two things to teach them a lesson they won't soon forget.
1. Absolutely refuse to drive you car on any public highway in CA. Turn in you license, to cut of this source of excessive revenue. Sell you car to cut off the outrageous registration fees that are no doubt being squandered. Cancel your vehicle insurance, and save the money.

2. Then I'd move to a state where I had the utmost respect for the LEO's there, where their training is supurb, and don't hand out tickets without provocation. BTW, what state would that be? Because I'm considering a move myself.

Registered and licensed in TX. Probably why I got F*** With in the first place...

Would love to move; but I work for "uncle sugar" and there aren't a lot of choices of were to homestead.

TX would be a good start!

ST5MF
06-06-2009, 11:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I be so bold as to direct you attention to this? You did read and agree to it before posting didn't you?

1. This forum is for Calguns LEO members and those who would like to ask questions in a civil manner.

2. This forum is to give our LEO members a place to share their stories, pictures and videos as well as answer serious questions from the membership.

3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

4. Post denigrating or insulting our LEO members will be removed and the poster will no longer be able to access this forum.

5. Questions for LEOs should be both civil and serious. Questions like 'Why do you thugs..' will get you removed and possibly banned. Frivolous questions will be deleted.
6. 'Cop Bashing' will NOT be tolerated in this forum at all.

7. In addition to these special rules, the standard rules still apply here as well

The question still stands? What possesses a fellow badge wearing LEO from conducting himself like this? The fact he knows he can do it and get away with it? The fact he knows that people who work for a living don't have the time to deal with this over a $168 ticket? Or is just plain old evilness of man?

I am sure all LEO's have to deal with other LEO's who are low down dirt bags. Just because someone wears a badge that doesn't make them a "Saint."

I remember running into a few LEO's who I went to school with getting lit in their patrol vehicle while they were in uniform and on duty! They thought it was funny (had the attitude that they were above the law- kind of sickening really) My point being that we don't live in a fair world of right and just. There are good cops and there are plenty of bad cops. Perception is reality. There are many dirty cops who do unethical and yes illegal things; they take advantage of their authority and sometimes they get caught. The fact that there are very many a bad cop is probably where the so called "bashing" comes in. Because one wears a badge doesn't free them from criticism by the very people they are suppose to serve. You put a badge on you better be ready to live up to a higher standard and not be a hypocrite as many LEO's have proven to be in my experience with them.

BTW I do have many FRIENDS who are Municipal and Federal LEO's, many men in my military community go on to become LEO's and I work with retired LEO's who are now contractors on a regular basis.

Finally- The fact that the CHP officer I encountered on IH8 was a big fat person was merely an observation. There are lots of really over weight, really fat cops; to point that out offends you?

neomentat
06-06-2009, 11:44 PM
can't rule out the possibility of uneducated convicted criminals mouthing off while hiding behind various screen names

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 11:44 PM
[QUOTE=Fire in the Hole;2593523]

Registered and licensed in TX. Probably why I got F*** With in the first place...

Would love to move; but I work for "uncle sugar" and there aren't a lot of choices of were to homestead.

TX would be a good start!

Then TX Would be good for you. As soon as I finish two more semensters I'm puting my house on the market and headed for ID.

But back to my point. Why on Earth, assuming that you know the rules of this specific LEO Forum, would you come here and ask such ridiculous questions that any of us could ever answer? Getting carried away, just wanting to vent, or getting caught up in the moment doesn't cut it as an excuse. I suspect it is because you have some unresolved issues, and hiding behind a cloak of annomitity to hurl insults at LEO's makes you feel better.

As far as the Officer walking back to his cruiser and driving off while you thought you were still questioning him. The answer is simple. The side of the highway is not the place to hold traffic court. I don't know what you said or what the "fat" Officer said. But I do know that LEO's are trained to just let the citizen have the last word, smile, do an about-face, and retreat. Speaking for myself, I did this all the time when I had lost patience with an irate citizen. There was this little red light that went off in one eye that wanted me to gouge his eyes out and skull f him to death. Then the little red light in my other eye came on, and reminded me that I might be being taped, filmed, recorded, etc. I just shut up, departed, found a shade tree and smoked a cigarette, then went on to the next customer. Because there's two things we get complained on: The Officers just drive around wasting gas, or sit in a coffee shop, meanwhile people are breaking the law right in front of them, talking on cell phones, or not wearing their seat belts, and they don't do anything about it. Or, the police are out there too much, pulling people over without any provocation at all, and writing useless tickets just to fill their quotas, and bring in revenue for the government to waste.

Fire in the Hole
06-06-2009, 11:50 PM
The question still stands? What possesses a fellow badge wearing LEO from conducting himself like this? The fact he knows he can do it and get away with it? The fact he knows that people who work for a living don't have the time to deal with this over a $168 ticket? Or is just plain old evilness of man?

I am sure all LEO's have to deal with other LEO's who are low down dirt bags. Just because someone wears a badge that doesn't make them a "Saint."

I remember running into a few LEO's who I went to school with getting lit in their patrol vehicle while they were in uniform and on duty! They thought it was funny (had the attitude that they were above the law- kind of sickening really) My point being that we don't live in a fair world of right and just. There are good cops and there are plenty of bad cops. Perception is reality. There are many dirty cops who do unethical and yes illegal things; they take advantage of their authority and sometimes they get caught. The fact that there are very many a bad cop is probably where the so called "bashing" comes in. Because one wears a badge doesn't free them from criticism by the very people they are suppose to serve. You put a badge on you better be ready to live up to a higher standard and not be a hypocrite as many LEO's have proven to be in my experience with them.

BTW I do have many FRIENDS who are Municipal and Federal LEO's, many men in my military community go on to become LEO's and I work with retired LEO's who are now contractors on a regular basis.

Finally- The fact that the CHP officer I encountered on IH8 was a big fat person was merely an observation. There are lots of really over weight, really fat cops; to point that out offends you?

This forum is not the place for you to vent your frustrations or criticisms of LEO's. Those are the rules. Plain and simple. Find another outlet for them. Meanwhile I know when I'm practicing out of my scope. So my advice it to seek professional help. Good luck with that BTW.

TRICKSTER
06-07-2009, 12:32 AM
Why do people come here to bash cops?
Could it be because it is illegal to file a false "formal complaint" against an officer?

Why is it that people come here claiming that officers stop people and write bogus tickets because they know that the citizens don't have the the time to fight it in court, yet those same people have enough spare time to come to forums like this and waste hours complaining about officers?

Why is it that some people talk tough and claim that they would defend their 2nd A rights to the death, but won't even take the time to fight a traffic ticket?

Go figure.

BunnySlayer
06-07-2009, 1:04 AM
In my encounters with LE in my lifetime I've found they pretty much reflect all of society. Here and there you will find a jerk or two but for the most part the've been friendly and helpful or at the very least polite and professional. I've seen more rude civillians than rude cops, that's for sure.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 7:06 AM
Got it.

Some LEO's believe that wearing a badge makes you devoid of criticism.

Check.

goathead
06-07-2009, 7:49 AM
Got it.

Some LEO's believe that wearing a badge makes you devoid of criticism.

Check.

no we are talking about forum rules and keeping it cool with everyone here

CHECK

your so caught up in being mad. you must have a chip on your shoulder,
this area of the forum is for LEO's to talk and to help people not for you to bash cops and how you were wronged and how it MAKES YOU FEEL.

your missing the point of this part of the forum. i'm trying to get people like you to under stand, you come in here blame the members here for your problems, if you dont like LEO's stay out of this area.........................

jptsr1
06-07-2009, 7:55 AM
anonymity gives confidence to those who would otherwise be complete cowards. everyone is a tough guy when they don't have to face the person they are speaking to.

Fire in the Hole
06-07-2009, 7:58 AM
Got it.

Some LEO's believe that wearing a badge makes you devoid of criticism.

Check.


You are closer. LEO's are not devoid of criticism, as long as it's constructive. In fact, I can't think of another occupation or profession where criticism is more abundant than with LEO's. I believe that this is one of the main reasons why there is such an extremely high attrition rate in the LEO profession. However this forum is not the place for it. Many other avenues exist for that purpose. Find one of them and use it. Just not here! Check?

Fire in the Hole
06-07-2009, 7:59 AM
anonymity gives confidence to those who would otherwise be complete cowards. everyone is a tough guy when they don't have to face the person they are speaking to.

Correctamundo!

goathead
06-07-2009, 8:03 AM
Correctamundo!

thanks for your help

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 9:19 AM
Any LEO is welcome to visit or chat with me at any time I am local SD. I will even pull some strings if they would like to do some shooting at our indoor shooting facility here on Coronado Island. Our guns our ammo. LEO's only with credentials.

My response to the OP was a rhetorical one. A lot of people bash LEO's because of experiences like this. I think that was missed...

FWIW I actually have a BA in Criminal Justice with an emphasis in "Law Enforcement" but chose a different career. Did some internship time with a PD and knew then that I never wanted to be a cop.

scr83jp
06-07-2009, 10:23 AM
Haha... That's a funny video!:smilielol5:That was funny.Too many of the public who get pulled over start on a contempt of cop attitude w/o hearing the reason for the stop.I was the deputy probation officer for juveniles in the morongo desert for 12 years so the kids all knew me.One day at the high school a couple of students told me about an incident they were involved in, they were out after the 10pm curfew riding in a friends car with open containers,a deputy stopped them checking the car and asked for the beer which the kids handed to him to pour out all except for the driver who copped an attitude & refused to comply with the order.The students told me they were given a verbal warning and released ,their friends' car was impounded and towed and he was booked into a holding cell in 29 Palms.They were laughing and said Mr D your going to be seeing him.They learned a valuable lesson don't cop an attitude and cooperation has its rewards.

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 1:59 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...


I'm going to try and sift thru your anti-LEO smokescreen and see if I can address your 'question' if I can interpret it correctly.

As you stated, you were cited for doing 67 in a 65 mph zone on I-8. You didn't describe road, weather or traffic conditions so it is impossible to give you a definitive answer.

If it was bright, no traffic and no road hazards: It didn't happen or you should have contested the ticket and complained to his watch commander

If it was raining, foggy, reduced visibility and poor road conditions, the basic speed law in California (22350 CVC) states it is unlawful for you to drive faster than it is safe. Even though it may be posted 65, it may only be safe to drive 45 mph due to conditions and you can be cited.

If traffic is moving at 45 and you're trying to do 67, you create an unsafe speed situation.

Since you didn't give much info, this is only theory.

You describe the officer "throwing" the ticket at you. I've had people refuse to take the ticket when I tried to hand them their copy. Depending on the drivers attitude, you can place it on their dash but if they are aggressive, I'm not reaching into the car. I've had some drivers that refuse to stop debating the issue. Some times it gets funny and it's hard to avoid a snicker. Dropping the cite in the window may seem like throwing to you, but sometimes it's the safest for the officer. I've had people try to roll up the window on my arm before. It's not fun.

You sort of asked a question, but you put too much of your personal emotions in it to be a "civil" question.

To quote a famous TV Cop, "Just the Facts, Ma'am, Just the Facts."


Always remember, if you project negativity, it shuts down lines of communicaton.

goathead
06-07-2009, 2:22 PM
I'm going to try and sift thru your anti-LEO smokescreen and see if I can address your 'question' if I can interpret it correctly.

As you stated, you were cited for doing 67 in a 65 mph zone on I-8. You didn't describe road, weather or traffic conditions so it is impossible to give you a definitive answer.

If it was bright, no traffic and no road hazards: It didn't happen or you should have contested the ticket and complained to his watch commander

If it was raining, foggy, reduced visibility and poor road conditions, the basic speed law in California (22350 CVC) states it is unlawful for you to drive faster than it is safe. Even though it may be posted 65, it may only be safe to drive 45 mph due to conditions and you can be cited.

If traffic is moving at 45 and you're trying to do 67, you create an unsafe speed situation.

Since you didn't give much info, this is only theory.

You describe the officer "throwing" the ticket at you. I've had people refuse to take the ticket when I tried to hand them their copy. Depending on the drivers attitude, you can place it on their dash but if they are aggressive, I'm not reaching into the car. I've had some drivers that refuse to stop debating the issue. Some times it gets funny and it's hard to avoid a snicker. Dropping the cite in the window may seem like throwing to you, but sometimes it's the safest for the officer. I've had people try to roll up the window on my arm before. It's not fun.

You sort of asked a question, but you put too much of your personal emotions in it to be a "civil" question.

To quote a famous TV Cop, "Just the Facts, Ma'am, Just the Facts."


Always remember, if you project negativity, it shuts down lines of communicaton.

very well said:thumbsup:

CavTrooper
06-07-2009, 2:34 PM
The internet gives the anonymity that people don't have in real life. Would they actually go to a LEO and tell them to their faces? Probably not.



And don't forge the internet tough guy factor. Half the people whining about LEO's would be the first to call 911 (us) at the sign of trouble.

can't rule out the possibility of uneducated convicted criminals mouthing off while hiding behind various screen names

anonymity gives confidence to those who would otherwise be complete cowards. everyone is a tough guy when they don't have to face the person they are speaking to.

Attempting to belittle people for "hiding" behind screen names and keyboards. All the while "hiding" behind your badge and "authority". Cmon now, you want me to belive that any LEO would be willing to come out from behind the badge and back up thier talk in an honest to goodness man-to-man conversation?

Fire in the Hole
06-07-2009, 2:38 PM
Attempting to belittle people for "hiding" behind screen names and keyboards. All the while "hiding" behind your badge and "authority". Cmon now, you want me to belive that any LEO would be willing to back up thier talk in an honest to goodness man-to-man conversation?

ST5MF has extended an invitation, is anyone gonna take him up on it?

If I pm you with my physical address, will you show up. I'm serious. I'll pour, you talk. There you've thrown down the gauntlet, and I've picked it up. Balls in you court

I'm not only willing to talk the talk, I'll walk the walk. And you?

paladin4415
06-07-2009, 2:46 PM
Attempting to belittle people for "hiding" behind screen names and keyboards. All the while "hiding" behind your badge and "authority". Cmon now, you want me to belive that any LEO would be willing to come out from behind the badge and back up thier talk in an honest to goodness man-to-man conversation?

I too will sit down with you if you wish.

CavTrooper
06-07-2009, 2:47 PM
If I pm you with my physical address, will you show up. I'm serious. I'll pour, you talk. There you've thrown down the gauntlet, and I've picked it up. Balls in you court

I'm not only willing to talk the talk, I'll walk the walk. And you?

Im sure you checked my location before you "threw down the gauntlet" to make sure I wasnt within a reasonable distance. Nice attempt.

Anytime youre down my way, let me know.

Leave your badge at home.

paladin4415
06-07-2009, 2:52 PM
Im sure you checked my location before you "threw down the gauntlet" to make sure I wasnt within a reasonable distance. Nice attempt.

Anytime youre down my way, let me know.

Leave your badge at home.

Cav,
Are you looking for a calm conversation or a knock-down, drag-out confrontation?

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 2:58 PM
I'm going to try and sift thru your anti-LEO smokescreen and see if I can address your 'question' if I can interpret it correctly.

As you stated, you were cited for doing 67 in a 65 mph zone on I-8. You didn't describe road, weather or traffic conditions so it is impossible to give you a definitive answer.

If it was bright, no traffic and no road hazards: It didn't happen or you should have contested the ticket and complained to his watch commander

If it was raining, foggy, reduced visibility and poor road conditions, the basic speed law in California (22350 CVC) states it is unlawful for you to drive faster than it is safe. Even though it may be posted 65, it may only be safe to drive 45 mph due to conditions and you can be cited.

If traffic is moving at 45 and you're trying to do 67, you create an unsafe speed situation.

Since you didn't give much info, this is only theory.

You describe the officer "throwing" the ticket at you. I've had people refuse to take the ticket when I tried to hand them their copy. Depending on the drivers attitude, you can place it on their dash but if they are aggressive, I'm not reaching into the car. I've had some drivers that refuse to stop debating the issue. Some times it gets funny and it's hard to avoid a snicker. Dropping the cite in the window may seem like throwing to you, but sometimes it's the safest for the officer. I've had people try to roll up the window on my arm before. It's not fun.

You sort of asked a question, but you put too much of your personal emotions in it to be a "civil" question.

To quote a famous TV Cop, "Just the Facts, Ma'am, Just the Facts."


Always remember, if you project negativity, it shuts down lines of communicaton.

Ron,

Again my question was a rhetorical one. Though it did happen and I did try to contest it. Funny thing is you have to pay the ticket before you actually go to court. The day I went the clerk told me there was no formal letter with my payment needed to contest the "event" in court. How convenient.

BTW The conditions were fine. I actually watched the CHP officer in my rear view mirror for a solid 5 mikes. Locked my victor on cruise control to avoid "confusion."

The original question was WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE BASH COPS? I know why the CHP officer did what he did. BECAUSE HE CAN, AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO ABOUT IT. Hence the answer to the OP. The law abiding don't fight LEO's they simply roll with the punches. So what you have is "passive aggressive" hostility towards the LE community as a whole. What LEO's know all to well is that what one LEO does reflects on the entire LE community. PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

Twinkies
06-07-2009, 2:59 PM
If one had several encounters, I wonder what the nature of contacts were. Speeding several times? Rolling stop several times? I wonder why one keeps breaking the law to have that many contacts with LEO's in the first place.

Since you asked, my answer would be prejudice, not always initially from cops, but from cops choosing to side with other citizens who spread the FUD (as this forum would call it.) Because Im a renter, I drive old trucks, I ride dirtbikes, I ride a chopper, I drink beer in the garage and make lots of noise, I excercise my 2nd ammendment rights, and my choice of fashion may be offensive to some, I dont get along with the neighborhood watch types. Im single, I have people over a lot, and all of a sudden PD is hanging out down the street for a month because my neighbor thinks I must be selling drugs or running a chop shop out of my garage because I have vehicles everywhere.
Unfortunately it doesnt matter if I try to be polite and try to explain the situation, I get the LEOs who automatically side with the family whos parents are the cleanly dressed school teachers with a new minivan and a well kept front yard. I blame them for letting these situations escalate and encouraging my neighbors by responding to these rediculous calls.
This happens every time I move, and guess what? No arrestes, no citations, nothing. You dont need to break any laws or traffic violations to have LE encounters.

As for the original post, I agree, come on guys, the LEOs here obviously have some initiative, are pro- 2nd A, and are trying to be constructive with us. LEOs are people, youre always going to run into good ones and bad ones just like any profession. The majority of them are excellent people that despite having a difficult job, do their job very well. Others are on a power trip and think theyre gods gift to public service and they know better than public utilities workers, emergency services and even the DOT. Ive encountered a few LEOs that have no business wearing a badge, but I dont let that deter me from treating LEOs with the same respect that I would like to be treated with.

Fire in the Hole
06-07-2009, 2:59 PM
Im sure you checked my location before you "threw down the gauntlet" to make sure I wasnt within a reasonable distance. Nice attempt.

Anytime youre down my way, let me know.

Leave your badge at home.

Geograqphy is not my fault. I have no control over where you choose to live. It was you that put the offer on the table. I saw you bid, and raised it. I'm man enough to PM my physical address to a complete stranger, no strings attached. You give me a date aned time, and I'll clear my agenda to meet with you. If it's as important to you as you make it out to be; you'll come. If not, well, at least I saw your offer.

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 3:01 PM
Attempting to belittle people for "hiding" behind screen names and keyboards. All the while "hiding" behind your badge and "authority". Cmon now, you want me to belive that any LEO would be willing to come out from behind the badge and back up thier talk in an honest to goodness man-to-man conversation?

What is your question for law enforcement?

Stop coming here trying to provoke a confrontation. Your anti-law enforcement dribble is not appropriate for this forum. You've made it very clear in your other posts you do not like law enforcement, so why do you keep coming into a law enforcement forum? The only reason I can think of is to start a confrontation.

Maybe you sould start your own forum.

The tribe has spoken, it's time for you to leave.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 3:04 PM
If I pm you with my physical address, will you show up. I'm serious. I'll pour, you talk. There you've thrown down the gauntlet, and I've picked it up. Balls in you court

I'm not only willing to talk the talk, I'll walk the walk. And you?

If you are local and our schedules allow it, I have no trouble with that. I don't want your home address just bring credentials. The offer still stands if you want to use our range, or if you just want a "tour" of our facilities to include the Armory.

How convenient is Coronado to you?

Fire in the Hole
06-07-2009, 3:16 PM
If you are local and our schedules allow it, I have no trouble with that. I don't want your home address just bring credentials. The offer still stands if you want to use our range, or if you just want a "tour" of our facilities to include the Armory.

How convenient is Coronado to you?

No offense to you, but my offer is to CavTrooper, who as I said, "Threw down the gauntlet." Once a person does that, they have no control of who picks it it to slap them with it. If you're not willing to face a challenge, THEN DON'T ISSUE ONE.

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 3:19 PM
Since you asked, my answer would be prejudice, not always initially from cops, but from cops choosing to side with other citizens who spread the FUD (as this forum would call it.) Because Im a renter, I drive old trucks, I ride dirtbikes, I ride a chopper, I drink beer in the garage and make lots of noise, I excercise my 2nd ammendment rights, and my choice of fashion may be offensive to some, I dont get along with the neighborhood watch types. Im single, I have people over a lot, and all of a sudden PD is hanging out down the street for a month because my neighbor thinks I must be selling drugs or running a chop shop out of my garage because I have vehicles everywhere.


You've chosen a fashion style and lifestyle that is going to draw attention to yourself. That doesn't mean anything bad. Not all people who ride choppers are involved in criminal activity, but many are. If you move into a neighborhood that is manicured lawns and minivans, and you've got yard cars and weeds everywhere, you're not going to make a good impression and they're going to think you are up to no good.

Keep you dirtbikes off the street (they are DIRT bikes after all) and if your chopper is loud (like many) keep it quiet in the neighborhood and make sure your visitors do the same. My guess is that you will have less problems with the neighbors = less problems with LE.

Mutual respect = tolerance

I used to have a neighbor who did everything he clould to make his bike as loud as possible. He set off car alarms in the neighborhood every time he rode by. Annoyed everyone, so he got a lot of visits from the local PD. I knew him before he got the annoying bike. Although we weren't close friends, I personally contacted him about the noise, which fell on deaf ears. I tried to explain the facts of life to him, but no use. He just thought everyone was harassing him. He didn't get it. His right to ride a loud bike doesn't outweigh his neighbors right to a little peace and quiet. In law enforcement, it's called a "quality of life" issue.


Aloha,

Ron

goathead
06-07-2009, 3:35 PM
Any LEO is welcome to visit or chat with me at any time I am local SD. I will even pull some strings if they would like to do some shooting at our indoor shooting facility here on Coronado Island. Our guns our ammo. LEO's only with credentials.

My response to the OP was a rhetorical one. A lot of people bash LEO's because of experiences like this. I think that was missed...

FWIW I actually have a BA in Criminal Justice with an emphasis in "Law Enforcement" but chose a different career. Did some internship time with a PD and knew then that I never wanted to be a cop.

as military, bad contact with LE in today miltary is no good and ST stand for what i think it does, negative contact with law enforcement that's good way not to keep your security clearance
some one maybe king of the hill in the military but you have to be part of both worlds,
just my 2 pennys

ilbob
06-07-2009, 3:42 PM
Most of us are adult enough to get over it, but think about it. The vast majority of police encounters are where the police are in full tactical mode and acting the control freak. Most of us would never tolerate that from anyone else. A few, and the number appears to be growing, don't forget that kind of treatment. The thing is you don't have a choice when it is a cop. Anyone else annoys you, mostly you have effective options to deal with it, such as just leaving.

People see cops as the guys enforcing the will of the politicians against the rest of us. Its not quite that simple, but its part of it.

The vast majority of people will never have a good encounter with LE. Just the way it is. Some people blame that on the cops. LE certainly shares some of the blame for allowing themselves to be seen as having turned from protecting the public to fleecing the public though the traffic citation system, although that situation is not all that simple either.

Some people seem to think Adam12 and Dragnet are the norm in policing and don't ever get over it when it turns out that it never was like that.

Most people just want to be left alone and expect government to leave them alone as long as they are not harming someone else. It turns out government is not willing to live with that model, and guess who enforces the model government comes up with?

I can just about guarantee that the way cops treat everyone they meet as if they are a violent criminal about to kill any cop they run across does not win LE any supporters, and loses a lot of them over time. Cops think of it as a survival mechanism, but a lot of people just don't see it that way.

Its not really fair to blame cops for the mess the politicans mostly created, but in some respects there is a symbiotic, some might say parasitic, thing going on.

MIB
06-07-2009, 3:52 PM
....

Its not really fair to blame cops for the mess the politicans mostly created, but in some respects there is a symbiotic, some might say parasitic, thing going on.

Huh?
:rolleyes:

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 3:52 PM
as military, bad contact with LE in today miltary is no good and ST stand for what i think it does, that good way not to keep your security clearance

just my 2 pennys

Wasn't looking for "bad contact."

Several posted that I am "HIDING" behind a computer. I have no reason to "HIDE" behind anything. The OP asked a question, I answered it rhetorically. I have no reason to hide from anyone especially LE.

WTBS if any LEO feels they need to speak face to face to validate, as opposed through the net; then by all means have your credentials ready and I will pick you up at the front gate here on the wet side of NAB. So as to put the "hiding behind a computer theory" to bed.

goathead
06-07-2009, 3:56 PM
Wasn't looking for "bad contact."

Several posted that I am "HIDING" behind a computer. I have no reason to "HIDE" behind anything. The OP asked a question, I answered it rhetorically. I have no reason to hide from anyone especially LE.

WTBS if any LEO feels they need to speak face to face to validate, as opposed through the net; then by all means have your credentials ready and I will pick you up at the front gate here on the wet side of NAB. So as to put the "hiding behind a computer theory" to bed.

all fire our we just remember we all get old

Kestryll
06-07-2009, 4:06 PM
Cavtrooper won't be responding to anything here anymore.
Since basic reading comprehension seems to have eluded him in reference to the rules of this forum he can no longer access this forum.

Twinkies
06-07-2009, 4:19 PM
Mutual respect = tolerance



Thanks for the reply, I agree, and if you were my neighbor Im sure we'd get along just fine.. Theres a lot more to my story, but I like this forum and the fact that LEO's contribute to it so Ill leave it at that! :thumbsup:

CaliTheKid
06-07-2009, 4:24 PM
An open and respectful post to the moderators:

I think if you look at the LEO response to this forum, it's obviously a lot of LEO's genuinely want to be a part of Calguns but under the current post allowances-- things are headed down hill quick. I know how busy moderating a website can be-- and I respectfully submit to the moderators to elect a LEO to become a mod for this forum. We have many long time LEO members and I bet you would not have a problem finding someone willing to do it.

Thank you for reading.

CaliTheKid
06-07-2009, 4:27 PM
Cavtrooper won't be responding to anything here anymore.
Since basic reading comprehension seems to have eluded him in reference to the rules of this forum he can no longer access this forum.

Hey Kestryll-- thank you for that. We posted at about the same time-- any thoughts to my idea-- even if the LEO only had MOD access to this forum?

goathead
06-07-2009, 4:29 PM
An open and respectful post to the moderators:

I think if you look at the LEO response to this forum, it's obviously a lot of LEO's genuinely want to be a part of Calguns but under the current post allowances-- things are headed down hill quick. I know how busy moderating a website can be-- and I respectfully submit to the moderators to elect a LEO to become a mod for this forum. We have many long time LEO members and I bet you would not have a problem finding someone willing to do it.

Thank you for reading.

great idea i vote for that
i want a open forum for all to enjoy not bash on one group
i love leos they have saved my butt more than once
i feel like i own them some thing

Libertarian71
06-07-2009, 4:33 PM
Everyone wants to bash LEO's until they call 911......

I'd rather first call on my 1911, before calling 911.

Libertarian71
06-07-2009, 4:46 PM
I agree that warrantless bashing of LEOs is rude, uncalled for, and should be proscribed. Nevertheless, I think Calguns should promote a healthy, but respectful, give-and-take between LEOs and the citizenry they are supposed to serve.

ilbob
06-07-2009, 5:26 PM
Why do people come here to bash cops?
Why is it that people come here claiming that officers stop people and write bogus tickets because they know that the citizens don't have the the time to fight it in court, yet those same people have enough spare time to come to forums like this and waste hours complaining about officers?

Could it be as simple as that court is typically set for times when it is extremely inconvenient for virtually all people not being paid to be there, and the forum is open 24/7?

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 5:38 PM
Could it be as simple as that court is typically set for times when it is extremely inconvenient for virtually all people not being paid to be there, and the forum is open 24/7?

I doubt it. Many courts have night court sessions and the ability for trial by statement or declaration.

Contesting a citation is a right that law enforcement agrees with and supports.

There is a difference between contesting a citation and hiding behind a keyboard and making general negative or harassing comments. That's not what this forum is all about.

paladin4415
06-07-2009, 5:43 PM
Could it be as simple as that court is typically set for times when it is extremely inconvenient for virtually all people not being paid to be there, and the forum is open 24/7?

You say that like it's the cops that set the court schedule.
I have had the go to court on my child's birthday, my wife's birthday and several other VERY inconvenient times. I have gotten off a graveyard shift at 7am, been in court at 9am (for about 2hrs) and at 1pm (another hour and a half) and been back at work that night at 9pm. Did I get paid? Yes. Would I have traded that pay for sleep? Hell yes!
There are more mechanisms in place to hold LEO's accountable than any other profession out there. To come to an internet forum, especially an LEO forum and just rant and bash LEO's shows very poor taste.

TRICKSTER
06-07-2009, 5:56 PM
Since you asked, my answer would be prejudice, not always initially from cops, but from cops choosing to side with other citizens who spread the FUD (as this forum would call it.) Because Im a renter, I drive old trucks, I ride dirtbikes, I ride a chopper, I drink beer in the garage and make lots of noise, I excercise my 2nd ammendment rights, and my choice of fashion may be offensive to some, I dont get along with the neighborhood watch types. Im single, I have people over a lot, and all of a sudden PD is hanging out down the street for a month because my neighbor thinks I must be selling drugs or running a chop shop out of my garage because I have vehicles everywhere.
Unfortunately it doesnt matter if I try to be polite and try to explain the situation, I get the LEOs who automatically side with the family whos parents are the cleanly dressed school teachers with a new minivan and a well kept front yard. I blame them for letting these situations escalate and encouraging my neighbors by responding to these rediculous calls.
This happens every time I move, and guess what? No arrestes, no citations, nothing. You dont need to break any laws or traffic violations to have LE encounters.


If this is the case, that "This happens everytime I move" uptight neighbors and cops are probably not the problem. You might want to consider renting a place more isolated so that your lifestyle is not disturbing the peace of the neighborhood.

bruceflinch
06-07-2009, 6:15 PM
I'm not an LEO & I don't play one on TV. I didn't come here to bash, either. On Calguns for 4 yrs & never been here. Just came to visit. Never had a bad encounter w/ an LEO. Lord knows when I was in the Navy, I deserved some. :eek:

I think the Forum brings out the "keyboard commando" in people. And not just in this forum.

I wanted to be a LEO when I was in high school, but the sight requirements then, wouldn't allow it. As an adult, I'm lucky not to have chosen the profession. I would have been one of those 'bad cops' who killed scumbuckets & planted a gun on them. Man I hate scumbuckets & there are plenty to hate. Working in Oakland is a challenge for me. So you Gentlemen , have my respect in your restraint & ability to deal w/ morons & the general public everyday.

ilbob
06-07-2009, 7:13 PM
I doubt it. Many courts have night court sessions and the ability for trial by statement or declaration.

Contesting a citation is a right that law enforcement agrees with and supports.
As I understand it, you don't get a choice of when your court date is, so night court is not really an option for a traffic offense. The written declaration thing seems to be a CA innovation, and a pretty good one. Is this something widely known, or something you have to just know about?

You say that like it's the cops that set the court schedule.
I have had the go to court on my child's birthday, my wife's birthday and several other VERY inconvenient times. I have gotten off a graveyard shift at 7am, been in court at 9am (for about 2hrs) and at 1pm (another hour and a half) and been back at work that night at 9pm. Did I get paid? Yes. Would I have traded that pay for sleep? Hell yes!
There are more mechanisms in place to hold LEO's accountable than any other profession out there. To come to an internet forum, especially an LEO forum and just rant and bash LEO's shows very poor taste.
Traffic court is always set for when the majority of people are at work. I did not mean to imply it was set for the convenience of LE, only that it is virtually always inconvenient for the guy trying to contest a ticket.

There are more mechanisms in place to hold LEO's accountable than any other profession out there. To come to an internet forum, especially an LEO forum and just rant and bash LEO's shows very poor taste. It may seem to some that those mechanisms don't work especially well. Its hard to tell from the outside looking in if they work or not because most LEAs are pretty secretive about their disciplinary system, and it often appears to be a system that is oriented primarily to clearing the officers involved in questionable activities. It probably is not that bad, but you must admit that appearances are important to public opinion and a system that operates in secrecy is not one that will ever have wide faith from the public. People are pretty cynical these days and its not too surprising that regardless of reality, people will never truly trust a system that investigates itself.

yzernie
06-07-2009, 7:38 PM
The fact of the matter is some people will question everything that happens and voice their suspicions and opinions while basing them only on speculation and innuendo...without a clue of what really happens. Some people simply cannot be made happy even if they get the answer they wanted.

ETA: There is no secrecy to the disciplinary process for LEOs. The POBR prohibits the release the results of a disciplinary from being made public.

KaTooM
06-07-2009, 7:47 PM
Maybe if our laws here in California were a little more in line with the rest of the country, we would not see said bashing...

ilbob
06-07-2009, 7:49 PM
ETA: There is no secrecy to the disciplinary process for LEOs. The POBR prohibits the release the results of a disciplinary from being made public.

In what world is "not made public" not a synonym for "secret"?

TRICKSTER
06-07-2009, 7:54 PM
Maybe if our laws here in California were a little more in line with the rest of the country, we would not see said bashing...

That would only make sense if cops wrote the laws.

yzernie
06-07-2009, 7:54 PM
In what world is "not made public" not a synonym for "secret"?
The results are not secret as many people know the results. They are simply not broadcast on the 6pm news.

KaTooM
06-07-2009, 8:04 PM
That would only make sense if cops wrote the laws.

Good point, maybe we just tend to take it out on the Cops because of our crazy laws. I must admit, the last person I want to meet at the range is a Cop, even though I am in full complience of the law.(AR-15 OLL BB 10 round mags Evil features)

Just another wedge between law abiding folks and good Cops.

:(

J-cat
06-07-2009, 8:18 PM
Why?

He can't do anything to you without PC.

KaTooM
06-07-2009, 8:27 PM
Why?

He can't do anything to you without PC.

One I'll informed officer, and you and your lawyer could need to prove it...$$$$$

He may not even know what a BB is...I didnt until I found this site.

I was at Angeles today and the old timers next to me were talking all types of FUD. I approched them and tried to give them the scoop. I told them about OLL and the mag lock...there responce was maybe you should paint your rifle pink.

Steveo8
06-07-2009, 8:33 PM
Always remember, if you project negativity, it shuts down lines of communicaton.

I argee with you Ron, but please remeber that it works both directions.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 8:57 PM
One I'll informed officer, and you and your lawyer could need to prove it...$$$$$

He may not even know what a BB is...I didnt until I found this site.

I was at Angeles today and the old timers next to me were talking all types of FUD. I approched them and tried to give them the scoop. I told them about OLL and the mag lock...there responce was maybe you should paint your rifle pink.

You don't understand. He needs PC to take your gun. He has none when you are shooting your AR at the range. He would need to run the SN to see it is not registered. Cops can't just walk onto a range and start running SN's.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 9:26 PM
FYI PC = "Probable Cause."

The fact you are in a public range with a "questionable" rifle does not exclude someone from being questioned by an LEO. If the weapon is in the trunk of your car and there is no reason to stop or search your vehicle then PC would apply.

Is it right, perhaps not. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can't be questioned or that a LEO can't pee-pee in your cheerios. They most certainly can and often WILL if given the opportunity.

BTW I have many friends who shoot their legally registered so called "assault-weapons" at public ranges and they have been questioned by none other than CADOJ. Believe me they will not hesitate to crawl up your a** at a moments notice. A lot of these guys live in the pursuit to ruin lives. If you give them the opportunity they most certainly have no problems kicking in your door in the middle of the night if you dont ABIDE.

California is not the place to test the limits of gun laws.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 9:29 PM
Just because they have been questioned does not mean they had to entertain the questions.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 9:49 PM
Just because they have been questioned does not mean they had to entertain the questions.

In a public place discharging your rifle? Believe me, an LEO can if he so desires question you. As far as not entertaining him. If you aren't an LEO yourself you will more than likely loose that battle.

Might makes right has never been a truer statement.

Not saying it is fair or even right, just saying you will loose in this scenario...

J-cat
06-07-2009, 9:52 PM
You are discharging a rifle in a place where it is specifically allowed by the penal code. The cop cannot do squat to you unless the rifle is obviously illegal, i.e. silencer, short barrel, automatic fire, etc.

Hopi
06-07-2009, 9:55 PM
California is not the place to test the limits of gun laws.


If you don't mind....I'm going to grab this as a sigline....

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 10:05 PM
As I understand it, you don't get a choice of when your court date is, so night court is not really an option for a traffic offense. The written declaration thing seems to be a CA innovation, and a pretty good one. Is this something widely known, or something you have to just know about?

Hi Bob,

Most LA County courts have night traffic court on a regular scheduled basis and the date is written on the cite when given. It is only available for infractions. Some courts it is weekly, while others are monthly. With the current budget crisis, it may go away, which is unfortunate.

The written declaration varies by court, and you usually have to make a special request. It is not commonly used for moving violations but is common for parking violations.


Traffic court is always set for when the majority of people are at work. I did not mean to imply it was set for the convenience of LE, only that it is virtually always inconvenient for the guy trying to contest a ticket.

Unless you work day shift and have weekends off, it is also inconvient for the officer too

It may seem to some that those mechanisms don't work especially well. Its hard to tell from the outside looking in if they work or not because most LEAs are pretty secretive about their disciplinary system, and it often appears to be a system that is oriented primarily to clearing the officers involved in questionable activities. It probably is not that bad, but you must admit that appearances are important to public opinion and a system that operates in secrecy is not one that will ever have wide faith from the public. People are pretty cynical these days and its not too surprising that regardless of reality, people will never truly trust a system that investigates itself.

We have the same rights as anyone else and are innocent until proven guilty, which some people often forget. Like many professions, personnel matters are private issues and any discipline matters are not released. This is common in the private sector also. You'd be plesantly surprized how complete internal investigations are. Our Department, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, also has an independent review process for all investigations.



Not made public is NOT the same as 'secret' in this area. The release of this information requires a court hearing and the party wanting the information has to show a legitimate need for the information, not just wanting to know. These protections are guaranteed by the Peace Officers Bill of Rights, (PBOR) which is California law.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 10:08 PM
You are discharging a rifle in a place where it is specifically allowed by the penal code. The cop cannot do squat to you unless the rifle is obviously illegal, i.e. silencer, short barrel, automatic fire, etc.


J-CAT I agree with you whole heartedly. However, logic and reason don't always apply. Many in the CADOJ don't have a clue of the laws they themselves are intrusted to enforce. This is why Cali is in a perpetual state of lunacy when it comes to this stuff.

Don't think you will get into a pissing contest with a LEO in a public place with a firearm and win. The LEO can be an 80yr old geriatric women; you will loose in a pissing contest every time bro.

SVT-40
06-07-2009, 10:13 PM
In what world is "not made public" not a synonym for "secret"?

If you file a formal written complaint against an officer in Calif you will get a letter stating the findings of the investigation. What you will not receive is any information regarding what discipline if any the officer would receive or received.

The results could be:

1. "Unfounded" Defined as. The investigation clearly established that
the allegation is not true.

2. "Exonerated" Defined as. The investigation clearly established that the actions of the peace officer that formed the basis for the complaint are not violations of law or department policy.

3. "Not sustained" Defined as. The investigation is not able to clearly establish that the actions of the peace officer that formed the basis for the complaint are violations of law or departmental policy.

4. "sustained" Defined as. The investigation clearly established that the actions of the peace officer that formed the basis for the complaint are violations of law or department policy.

These findings must be mailed to the original complaining party within thirty days of the COMPLETION of the investigation.

Basically all a complaining party would receive is a letter stating one of the above four possible outcomes to the investigation. The letter would look something like this.

Dear Mr. Jones

The investigation into your complaint of the actions of Officer Smith on May 15 2008 is completed. The allegation were ( insert one of the above listed results).

Thank you, Chief heavy bottom Bum Phuck P. D.




For additional information see Penal codes PC 832.5 & PC 832.7 These codes spell out some of the procedures used in complaints against LEO's.

For more info check out What is known as the (POBOR) Peace officers bill of rights.
Sections 3300 through 3313 of the California Government Code.

There are also innumerable case decisions which come into play in relation to police officer disciplinary procedures. Far too many to delve into here.

for LEO collective bargaining information check out the (MMBA) Meyers Milias Brown Act .
Sections 3500 through 3511 of the California Government Code.


Dry but interesting reading.

I do have considerable expertise in relation to LEO complaints. I've acted as Officer council on many occasions when officers in my department had complaints against them, and had a few complaints against me. All mine were unfounded or I was exonerated :) I've also attended a few week long seminars related to POBOR issues as well as complaints against officers. Also being president of my POA I always had officers coming to me about complaints or internal issues.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 10:24 PM
J-CAT I agree with you whole heartedly. However, logic and reason don't always apply. Many in the CADOJ don't have a clue of the laws they themselves are intrusted to enforce. This is why Cali is in a perpetual state of lunacy when it comes to this stuff.

Don't think you will get into a pissing contest with a LEO in a public place with a firearm and win. The LEO can be an 80yr old geriatric women; you will loose in a pissing contest every time bro.

If you tell these guys to F-off, that's all they will be able to do. You shooting an AW at a public shooting range is specifically allowed by the Penal Code. That activity does not even rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion. Yes, they can approach you and ask questions, but they cannot do anything more than that. If they do, the consensual encounter turns into an unlawful detention and gives you legal avenues for relief.

Stop being paranoid.

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 10:24 PM
You are discharging a rifle in a place where it is specifically allowed by the penal code. The cop cannot do squat to you unless the rifle is obviously illegal, i.e. silencer, short barrel, automatic fire, etc.

You are not totally correct in your assumption. If an officer sees something he suspects might be illegal in plain view in a place where he has the legal right to be, he/she has the legal authority to contact that person and investigate.

Since CA requires AWs to be registered, if an officer sees a suspected AW, he can verify the registration. There are certain ground rules that must be followed, but it can be done.

The same applies to an OLL w/bullet button, etc. Your best bet in that situation would be having the ability to explain OLLs, BB, etc using a flowchart commonly posted on CalGuns. Ignoring the officer will certainly bring on further investigation. I'm not saying you have to incriminate yourself or give up any of your rights. Politely educating the officer on OLLs could save you a lot headaches in the future.

Avoid absolutes. To say someone can't ever do this or that is lining you up for future problems.

Most cops don't have any info regarding OLL's. It's up to everyone to get the word out. I didn't know anything about them until last summer when a friend of mine (non-LEO & Calgunner) told me about them. Since I usually stay on top of things, I didn't believe him until I did some serious research on my own. Now I try to spread the word when ever I can, and I own an OLL, and encourage friends to build them too.

Aloha,

Ron

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 10:39 PM
If you tell these guys to F-off, that's all they will be able to do.

Bad advice, you are incorrect

You shooting an AW at a public shooting range is specifically allowed by the Penal Code. That activity does not even rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion.

See other post

Yes, they can approach you and ask questions, but they cannot do anything more than that.

More bad advice

If they do, the consensual encounter turns into an unlawful detention and gives you legal avenues for relief.

Depending on the circumstances, it can be a legal detention

Stop being paranoid.

Good advice. Most law enfocement officers don't want to hassle honest gun owners. If you do something to draw our attention, we will follow up. I worked an area that had a legal shooting area in my patrol area. I made a lot of contacts, talked to a lot of great people, saw a wide variety of guns. I made my share of weapons related arrests, most of which were in the area around the shooting area because of knuckleheads who didn't want to follow the rules. If you are acting responsible in an area where it is legal to shoot, the only reason I'd want to talk to you is because I like guns and like to talk to people about guns. If you're rude, the first thing a LEO is going to think is "What is this guy hiding?" It just peaks our natural curiosity, it's human nature.

Enjoy your guns, use them responsibly, and keep a copy of the Calguns flowchart on AWs handy. That's what I do, even though I have a badge. I still have to deal with the same laws you do. My non-LEO son does the same.

I don't know what J-Cat's qualifications are for his advice, but he seems to make a lot of 'absolute' type decisions.

Aloha,

Ron

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 10:42 PM
If you tell these guys to F-off, that's all they will be able to do. You shooting an AW at a public shooting range is specifically allowed by the Penal Code. That activity does not even rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion. Yes, they can approach you and ask questions, but they cannot do anything more than that. If they do, the consensual encounter turns into an unlawful detention and gives you legal avenues for relief.

Stop being paranoid.

Don't confuse paranoia with realism.

If you believe you can tell an LEO to F--- Off and not suffer any repercussions you are fooling yourself and are misguided.

Going back to what I stated earlier. As most law abiding citizens do "rolling with the punches" when dealing with LEO's; Ya it sucks walking away feeling like you just got A** raped but it is an unfortunate flaw in dealing with an imperfect society with imperfect people sometimes at the helm.

If you are legal and have nothing to hide then answering questions by an LEO is the only course of action anyone should take in this scenario. If not out of respect than at least out of intelligence (why give an LEO or Agency any more reason to F*** you?)

Ron-Solo
06-07-2009, 10:48 PM
ST5MF,

Sounds like we could use someone with your common sense in law enforcement. Too bad you chose another path.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Because they can't. Not there, anyway.

And I'm not fooling myself. I'm one of them (not DOJ). I'm not saying you should be profane, just tell them to leave you alone.

SVT-40
06-07-2009, 10:58 PM
As stated by the other guys. If you are in a public place and an officer believes he sees a violation of law (illegal assault weapon in this hypothetical case) he can approach you and demand to examine it to determine if it's legal or not.

Just like any contact to determine if a crime is occurring or not.

What could happen is you could be in full compliance with the law, but cause such a big fuss that you delay the officer to the extent that you end up getting arrested for 148 PC (delaying or resisting a peace officer).

Just play nice and explain the reason your rifle is legal. Show a flow chart or other info published her regarding OLL's ect. It's never a real good idea to tell a officer or anyone for that matter to F off. Only bad things will come of it.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 11:05 PM
No he can't. You are not in just any public place. You are at a public shooting range. An AW at a public shooting range is not RS for a detention, Sorry, you are wrong.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 11:06 PM
Furthermore, telling a cop to leave you alone is not a 148.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 11:07 PM
Because they can't. Not there, anyway.

And I'm not fooling myself. I'm one of them (not DOJ). I'm not saying you should be profane, just tell them to leave you alone.

If you are being questioned by an LEO telling him/her "to leave you alone" ain't going to cut it. If you truly are an LEO, which matters not personally, then would you have someone pull that on you if you felt you were conducting your duties as a LEO?

Fact is in the MIND of the LEO they determine what is legal or illegal in a scenario. Whether they are right or wrong matters not.

This again goes back to the OP...

J-cat
06-07-2009, 11:10 PM
Oh really? What do you think he'll do?

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 11:19 PM
Oh really? What do you think he'll do?

Oh no, here we go.

Again, I agree with you. But you aren't looking at this very objectively. You can be a hundred times right in the law. You get into a pissing contest with an LEO and he believes he is right and you are wrong; it can be a bad day for you. And for what? If you are legal then why do you want tell an LEO to "leave you alone." Did I miss something?

If you are doing something illegal then whats the difference?

While I admit that I have been accused of being a knuckle-dragger more than once in my life- I don't understand what good could come about from your "legal" advice(?).

J-cat
06-07-2009, 11:20 PM
Telling a LEO to leave you alone when you have done nothing wrong is perfectly legal.

SVT-40
06-07-2009, 11:28 PM
Furthermore, telling a cop to leave you alone is not a 148.

It is if he's conducting an investigation and you are interfering or delaying him it sure could be.

One question, just why is a public range not a place where an officer can make observations about possible criminal behavior?

So in the same light if you were in possession of lets say a baggie of meth at the range and an officer spotted you. Would he be able to stop you and determine if in fact the white powder was meth or some other illegal substance??

Same issue with the rifle. He can investigate. If you refuse or delay him you could be in violation of 148 PC.

Here it is verbatim form the P.C.

148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or
obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical
technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797)
of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to
discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other
punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail
not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 11:29 PM
Telling a LEO to leave you alone when you have done nothing wrong is perfectly legal.

You appear to be much smarter than this.

If an LEO is in his/her mind conducting his/her duty; then legal or not, to impede them puts you in the wrong by default.

Saying it is "LEGAL" is not an argument. Getting in their way is and will always be a bad idea.

SVT-40
06-07-2009, 11:29 PM
Telling a LEO to leave you alone when you have done nothing wrong is perfectly legal.

How does he know there is no violation of the law unless he investigates??

ST5MF
06-07-2009, 11:43 PM
How does he know there is no violation of the law unless he investigates??

DING! DING!

We have a WINNER!

tazmanian devil dog
06-07-2009, 11:51 PM
Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...

Maybe you were a smart ***. Contempt of cop is always good for a ticket.

J-cat
06-07-2009, 11:55 PM
How does he know there is no violation of the law unless he investigates??

In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 12:02 AM
Maybe you were a smart ***. Contempt of cop is always good for a ticket.

I wish it was that simple. Unfortunately, I got *** raped because either 1.) the state is broke and CHP knows the cash cow is on its highways 2.) my Texas plates make me a target (most other states hate Texans like the Taliban hate Americans.)

The CHP officer new what he was doing and thought it was funny; he also knew that his badge and his gun gave him the power to do it. This is an unfortunate pitfall to our society. Though not perfect I would like to believe it is still the best country to live in on planet earth no matter what Obama does on a daily basis to deuterate it.

SVT-40
06-08-2009, 12:07 AM
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.

At a high power match all the shooters and their equipment would have been vetted by the match organizers. But your original statement was about a public range. Very different situations all together.

If you don't like my answers fine. Do as you please. I hope no one else here takes your advice though.

It will not do them any good and only lead to trouble.

By the way, what formal training education and experience do you have in relation to just what an officer can and cannot do??

tazmanian devil dog
06-08-2009, 12:07 AM
So you can read minds. You "knew" that he "knew" he had all this power to personally make your driving experience crappy.

My hats off to you.

I wish I "knew" what people thought.

Good luck with that.

And yes, you are from Texas aren't you.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 12:09 AM
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.

"In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place." -J-CAT.

And there you have it folks.

TRICKSTER
06-08-2009, 12:10 AM
If you tell these guys to F-off, that's all they will be able to do. You shooting an AW at a public shooting range is specifically allowed by the Penal Code. That activity does not even rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion. Yes, they can approach you and ask questions, but they cannot do anything more than that. If they do, the consensual encounter turns into an unlawful detention and gives you legal avenues for relief.

Stop being paranoid.

So you have a legal rifle, the cop ask questions about it, and you tell him to F-off. Wouldn't it be more reasonable and mature to use this opportunity to educate the officer as to why this weapon is legal instead of leaving the impression that you are just another a**h**e gun nut. You can bet that after telling the cop to F-off, he will find some reason to make an official contact. Don't spit on the ground, drop anything, and make sure you obey all traffic laws when driving home. All can be avoided and you can leave a positive impression of people that participate in shooting sports just by being polite and informative about your weapon.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 12:14 AM
So you can read minds. You "knew" that he "knew" he had all this power to personally make your driving experience crappy.

My hats off to you.

I wish I "knew" what people thought.

Good luck with that.

And yes, you are from Texas aren't you.

It didn't take a genius to figure out that a laughing cop throwing a ticket at you was nothing more than abuse of authority. Just like it doesn't take a genius to see you are someone with an angst against Texans. Like it or not Haters are here to stay. Your post alone proves that. People, cops included "HATE," it is an ugly part of humanity plain and simple.

tazmanian devil dog
06-08-2009, 12:15 AM
So you have a legal rifle, the cop ask questions about it, and you tell him to F-off. Wouldn't it be more reasonable and mature to use this opportunity to educate the officer as to why this weapon is legal instead of leaving the impression that you are just another a**h**e gun nut. You can bet that after telling the cop to F-off, he will find some reason to make an official contact. Don't spit on the ground, drop anything, and make sure you obey all traffic laws when driving home. All can be avoided and you can leave a positive impression of people that participate in shooting sports just by being polite and informative about your weapon.

Trickster

You are 110% right on the money. Having a bad attitude just makes us all look bad. You get a lot more with honey than vinegar. People with attitudes like ST5MF give the rest of us a very very bad name.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 12:23 AM
Trickster

You are 110% right on the money. Having a bad attitude just makes us all look bad. You get a lot more with honey than vinegar. People with attitudes like ST5MF give the rest of us a very very bad name.

You don't read much do you?

tazmanian devil dog
06-08-2009, 12:28 AM
Whatever dude. You aren't worth the time.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 12:32 AM
Whatever dude. You aren't worth the time.

You don't write much either. You are a grunt.

Maybe reading and writing aren't your game. Perhaps a "spelling contest."

TRICKSTER
06-08-2009, 12:42 AM
ST5MF, enough already, we get it. You got a ticket that you don't think you deserved, you think the cop was rude and making fun of you because you are from Texas, and because of the perceived actions of this one CHP officer, you have lost faith in the whole department Obsessing over it can't be healthy. Let it go and move on before you stroke out.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 1:03 AM
So you can read minds. You "knew" that he "knew" he had all this power to personally make your driving experience crappy.

My hats off to you.

I wish I "knew" what people thought.

Good luck with that.

And yes, you are from Texas aren't you.

Tasmanian Tough Nuts was the resurrector bro. He and his fine example of a read'n and a rite'n that is.

If you want to issue a debate then expect to be called on. I thought we were past the ticket thing about 20 post ago. Boy Genius felt otherwise.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 1:14 AM
Trickster

You are 110% right on the money. Having a bad attitude just makes us all look bad. You get a lot more with honey than vinegar. People with attitudes like ST5MF give the rest of us a very very bad name.

You give yourself not just a "very" but a "very very" bad name by your unintelligable posts, you don't need my help; your doing just fine all by your lonesome.

biglou
06-08-2009, 8:12 AM
CHP tickets everyone. Pay your fees, do an online traffic school, and get over it. As far as the range goes in reference to OLL's, keep a copy of the flow chart. There is also a good Training Bulletin from Sacramento PD that would be worth keeping with the flow chart.

Ron-Solo
06-08-2009, 8:21 AM
No he can't. You are not in just any public place. You are at a public shooting range. An AW at a public shooting range is not RS for a detention, Sorry, you are wrong.

Bad Info .....AGAIN

Ron-Solo
06-08-2009, 8:37 AM
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.

AWs are only legal to possess if they are REGISTERED in compliance with the law, even if they are at a place where it is legal to shoot.

You don't seem to have much accuracy in YOUR intrepretation of the law and police procedures. You are entitled to YOUR opinion, however wrong it may be, but please stop using this forum to spread inaccurate informantion that could get someone in trouble.

This forum is for Law Enforcement Officers to share information and for non-law enforcement to ask questions. If you are not law enforcement, your posts should be restricted to asking questions only. You should not be posting your opinions in this forum.

There are other forums available for you to post in. You can post your legal opinions in the legal issues forum. No one will notice because there is already way too much inaccurate information there to sort out. Too many people with a high school law degree putting out bad information and not enough moderators to sort it out. In this forum, someone might think you are law enforcement and take your mis-information as gospel, thereby getting themselves in hot water, then blaming law enforcement for their troubles.

If you are law enforcement, which I seriously doubt based on your posts, you don't know squat and are in some serious need of additional training on the laws of arrest, probable cause and investigative techniques. You are giving us a bad name. But like I said, I seriously doubt you are law enforcement.

You seem to be trying to provoke a confrontation, which is not acceptable in this forum.

Questions asked in a civil manner are welcomed and we will try to answer them as best we can. If you came here to pass on anti-law enforcement dribble, it's time for you to go away or go to another forum.

6172crew
06-08-2009, 9:07 AM
I'm going to beat the dead horse here, this forum allows members to ask LEO questions without calling the dept or stopping one on the street. Twice I can remember that good intentions turned bad.

You have a few cops here willing to give free time to us and I'd think everyone would keep that in mind when posting here. If you read the rules you will see more about what I just said.

So, do not come in here unless you are here to ask questions and are looking for gun friendly cops to answer.

Jonathan Doe
06-08-2009, 4:03 PM
I can be wrong, but it seems like some people got banned and keep coming back with different ID. Their tone of the writing feels the same.

Anyways, I learn a lot from the Calguns. At the same time, I try to post the information from my daily work, working specifically with a lot of guns involved in crimes one way or the other. Some people even complained about it also.

I know we cannot please everyone, but I am just doing my job.

yzernie
06-08-2009, 4:20 PM
I know we can please everyone, but I am just doing my job.
You must work in a great community...we could never please everyone.

GuyW
06-08-2009, 4:20 PM
At the same time, I try to post the information from my daily work, working specifically with a lot of guns involved in crimes one way or the other. Some people even complained about it also.

I'm sure that many of us appreciate your posts.

.

Fire in the Hole
06-08-2009, 4:44 PM
I'm going to beat the dead horse here, this forum allows members to ask LEO questions without calling the dept or stopping one on the street. Twice I can remember that good intentions turned bad.

You have a few cops here willing to give free time to us and I'd think everyone would keep that in mind when posting here. If you read the rules you will see more about what I just said.

So, do not come in here unless you are here to ask questions and are looking for gun friendly cops to answer.

+1000

And I'd like to add one more rule if I may. When you ask a question from a LEO on this forum, understand that you own whatever answer comes back. When you solicite an opinion or advice from an LEO there is to be no arguing, or bickering about the answer. Debate, clarification, and follow-up questions are fine. But hostility to the answer and answerer are not permitted, the same goes with snide personal come-backs. Reply remarks prefaced with, "I'll bet you wouldn't give that answer if you couldn't hide behind your badge" are inappropriate. The same holds true for the old worn out hacknied "doughnut" cliche's and "revenue generating" counter points. They've been done to death. If you believe that is the purpose for LE in your community, fine. But keep it to yourself and out of this forum. Remember never ask a question that you don't want to hear the answer to.

Jonathan Doe
06-08-2009, 4:52 PM
You must work in a great community...we could never please everyone.

Now I corrected it. My keyboard skill sucks.:)

Steveo8
06-08-2009, 6:16 PM
+1000
Remember never ask a question that you don't want to hear the answer to.

God I love this one :-)!!!

yzernie
06-08-2009, 6:54 PM
Remember never ask a question that you don't want to hear the answer to.
My dad used to tell me that all the time. What great words!! Maybe I should forward a copy of this quote to my boss!!! :eek:

J-cat
06-08-2009, 10:48 PM
At a high power match all the shooters and their equipment would have been vetted by the match organizers. But your original statement was about a public range. Very different situations all together.

If you don't like my answers fine. Do as you please. I hope no one else here takes your advice though.

It will not do them any good and only lead to trouble.

By the way, what formal training education and experience do you have in relation to just what an officer can and cannot do??

It is not a very different situation at all. High power matches take place at public shooting ranges.

Do you pull over cars just to see if the drivers are licensed?

As far as my quals, I am a peace officer in this state. I have both undergrad and graduate degrees in this field. I don't troll shooting ranges for offenders. But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road.

J-cat
06-08-2009, 11:03 PM
AWs are only legal to possess if they are REGISTERED in compliance with the law, even if they are at a place where it is legal to shoot.

You don't seem to have much accuracy in YOUR intrepretation of the law and police procedures. You are entitled to YOUR opinion, however wrong it may be, but please stop using this forum to spread inaccurate informantion that could get someone in trouble.

This forum is for Law Enforcement Officers to share information and for non-law enforcement to ask questions. If you are not law enforcement, your posts should be restricted to asking questions only. You should not be posting your opinions in this forum.

There are other forums available for you to post in. You can post your legal opinions in the legal issues forum. No one will notice because there is already way too much inaccurate information there to sort out. Too many people with a high school law degree putting out bad information and not enough moderators to sort it out. In this forum, someone might think you are law enforcement and take your mis-information as gospel, thereby getting themselves in hot water, then blaming law enforcement for their troubles.

If you are law enforcement, which I seriously doubt based on your posts, you don't know squat and are in some serious need of additional training on the laws of arrest, probable cause and investigative techniques. You are giving us a bad name. But like I said, I seriously doubt you are law enforcement.

You seem to be trying to provoke a confrontation, which is not acceptable in this forum.

Questions asked in a civil manner are welcomed and we will try to answer them as best we can. If you came here to pass on anti-law enforcement dribble, it's time for you to go away or go to another forum.

You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 11:15 PM
J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.

Ron-Solo
06-08-2009, 11:22 PM
You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.

Where did you get your law degree or basic POST certificate?

I have 32 years in law enforcement and hold a Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, and Middle Management Post Certificates. I think I know the laws of arrest and the case law supporting detentions and probable cause. I've made thousands of arrests and never had one dismissed due to unlawful detention or lack of probable cause.

So far, you have been spreading out mis-information. Most of what you post is inaccurate and half-truths. For crying out loud - STOP IT !

Your intrepretations are going to get someone in hot water if they believe what you post.

Please stop spreading inaccurate information in this forum.

FYI, there is no requirement in CA to register a pistol and it is not a crime. You are showing your ignorance again. Sadly, it is you who do not understand the basics of detention and arrest.

Time for you to go...........

Ron-Solo
06-08-2009, 11:25 PM
J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.

Sadly, J-cat is spreading inaccurate info, and no peace officer in the state would recommend telling a LEO to F-Off as he put it earlier. I seriously doubt his validity.

It is one thing to politely disagree, but I have a problem with him giving out bad advice that could land someone in a bed of legal hassles that could easily be avoided.

Ron

SVT-40
06-08-2009, 11:42 PM
It is not a very different situation at all. High power matches take place at public shooting ranges.

Do you pull over cars just to see if the drivers are licensed?

As far as my quals, I am a peace officer in this state. I have both undergrad and graduate degrees in this field. I don't troll shooting ranges for offenders. But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road.

As I said at a high power match ALL equipment would be vetted by the range masters. So it's apples and oranges.

If you have to ask about pulling cars over to see if the drivers are licensed, then I truly believe you are not a Police Officer or Deputy Sheriff.

What type of peace officer are you? There are many, according to the penal code who are technically "peace officers" such as Probation or Parole officers and prison guards.

These gentleman have a tough job, but they do not preform the job of a street cop or deputy. They do not handle routine calls and have near the street experience with search and seizure issues. Most everything they do is related to warrants or probation and parole searches. Very few "observation" type detentions or contacts.

So as to quote you :

"But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road."

May I ask just how you legally detain people in their homes and their vehicles??

Search and seizure 101:
If an officer who is in a public place sees what he believes or suspects is criminal, or possible criminal behavior. He can detain those involved to determine if in fact any crime has occurred or is occurring. He is free to examine any property in plain sight. including any firearm.

Like it or not that is what cops do. The officer does not have to KNOW a crime has or is occurring. All that is needed is a belief or suspicion.

The belief or suspicion can be based on his training and experience or just good old common sense.

After the original detention or casual contact he would investigate to determine if a crime actually was or had occurred.

It could be as simple as asking "does that rifle have a mag lock and a ten round mag"? Once he verified all was legal off he goes with minimal intrusion.

Contacts or detentions to verify legality of many items or actions take place every day. Like stopping young looking people with alcohol to determine their age. You can't know their age so you stop and verify it. No big deal.

As I said in my other post If a LEO was in any public place and saw a person with a baggie of white powder. He has plenty of reasons to stop the person and verify that the baggie does not contain illegal drugs.. He does not have to know they are drugs. He just has to have a suspicion. Same goes for weapons.

As for "trolling" at ranges. have you ever seen it done? It would be a waste of a cops time. Most folks at ranges are very upstanding types. When cops are at a range to shoot they don't want to get involved with any enforcement contacts. They are there to shoot.

One other thing to consider if approached by a LEO at a range. He most likely will be acting on a call for service where it has been reported that someone has an "illegal weapon". You would not know this. So telling him to F##off would not be conducive to having a positive outcome for the contact, and would get the contact off on the wrong foot.

ST5MF
06-08-2009, 11:50 PM
J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.


Of course this is a "tongue in cheek" response.

Before someone mounts an all out attack on me- I am being vicious.

Gator Monroe
06-08-2009, 11:53 PM
lET'S ATTACK dEM/lIBS INSTED ?

J-cat
06-08-2009, 11:55 PM
Where did you get your law degree or basic POST certificate?

I have 32 years in law enforcement and hold a Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, and Middle Management Post Certificates. I think I know the laws of arrest and the case law supporting detentions and probable cause. I've made thousands of arrests and never had one dismissed due to unlawful detention or lack of probable cause.

So far, you have been spreading out mis-information. Most of what you post is inaccurate and half-truths. For crying out loud - STOP IT !

Your intrepretations are going to get someone in hot water if they believe what you post.

Please stop spreading inaccurate information in this forum.

FYI, there is no requirement in CA to register a pistol and it is not a crime. You are showing your ignorance again. Sadly, it is you who do not understand the basics of detention and arrest.

Time for you to go...........

Time for you to go. It is absolutely lamentable that someone with your credentials has a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?

Please do, because driving a car without a license is illegal, yet you cannot pull me over just to check.

And possession of stolen property is illegal, but you cannot run my Ipod just because you see me walking down the street.

Please justify your position instead of attacking me personally.

SVT-40
06-09-2009, 12:00 AM
J-cat, So you work for CDC. (California Department Of Corrections) for those of you not familiar with the term.

I commend you for your work in our states penal system. It takes a special sort to stay confined with, and tend to the worst of the worst in our society. Hats off to you.

TRICKSTER
06-09-2009, 2:26 AM
Time for you to go. It is absolutely lamentable that someone with your credentials has a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?



How about someone with an AW and subject is obviously not old enough to have been of age when the AWB went into effect.

TRICKSTER
06-09-2009, 2:37 AM
Please do, because driving a car without a license is illegal, yet you cannot pull me over just to check.


Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?

B.D.Dubloon
06-09-2009, 4:13 AM
Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?

Checkpoints are a whole different issue, legally, than stopping someone (in the traditional sense). I know DUI checkpoints have to be announced in advance, and probably so do the other types of checkpoints.

masameet
06-09-2009, 5:30 AM
About a year or two ago a Concord PD officer was fired and then rehired for stopping motorists and asking for their DLs, reg and ins. cards. He was doing these stops in a predominantly Hispanic area (Monument Blvd.). Actually right outside some carneceria/taqueria/bodega. lol I think he stopped the people right after they left said shops. Most of the motorists were illegals and their vehicles were impounded.

As to the original question, and I'm not posting this simply because I like to speak and write with tongue-in-cheek, but judging from a great number of Calgun threads, I'd say the typical Calgunner is a male who likes to complain too much. If he's not griping about how Obama sucks, or about his girlfriend or wife, or the lack of ammo, or how some Calgunner stiffed him in a gun transaction, or the 10-day waiting period, or how Canyon Sports or Diablo Valley Gun Works or some other FFL is charging too much for transfer fees, guns, ammo, lousy customer service, blah blah blah [shrug] ... People get accustomed to thinking a certain way and then when told not to ... Couple that griping with gun ownership and knowing enough about certain laws, along with paranoia and stubbornness (apparently two other qualities of Calgunners), and probably some very bad personal experiences with cops, then it's kinda hard not to expect a bit of self-righteousness creeping into the consciousness and being expressed perhaps too unabashedly in a LEO forum.

Still I like the notion that cops are taught at their academies to use words to "kill citizens with kindness." lol I guess that training in part explains why the cops I've met not only have great senses of humor, but are also willing to educate, inform, help, and allay people's fears and ignorance. It's just too bad that one or two "bad" cops can sour some people's perceptions so that they see all LE officers as "the enemy." And since it's too easy for most people to generalize, well, then how do we teach Calgunners to be open-minded, to view events and the law dispassionately and without ego? IMO banning teaches people nothing, as it only makes them feel more disgruntled and reinforces in their minds that cops, even though they're not doing the banning, are unfair. In another forum I'm on, we've a LEO forum. Certain cops are the forum moderators (but other moderators do step in from time to time) and instead of banning people, they give stern warnings to perceived cop bashers and delete their cop bashing posts. Only after repeated warnings about not cop bashing do some posters get perma-banned.

Jonathan Doe
06-09-2009, 6:28 AM
Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?



What if you see a rifle built on OLL without a magazine lock but with regular magazine release? What if you see a guy with bullet button reloading with 30 round magazines? As an LEO, you cannot check it out?

Soldier415
06-09-2009, 7:16 AM
About a year or two ago a Concord PD officer was fired and then rehired for stopping motorists and asking for their DLs, reg and ins. cards. He was doing these stops in a predominantly Hispanic area (Monument Blvd.). Actually right outside some carneceria/taqueria/bodega. lol I think he stopped the people right after they left said shops. Most of the motorists were illegals and their vehicles were impounded.

.


I'm not seeing the problem here.

So the officer was fired for enforcing the law?

:confused:

FLIGHT762
06-09-2009, 8:15 AM
You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.

The state of California has determined that the possession of an unregistered AW is a felony. An unregistered AW is contraband. Having an AW in public (at a public range) just may be P C to detain for a L E officer to check. If you were to interfere and get arrested for a 148P.C. charge, it might be up held. Every time I take my AW's out, I have a copy of my AW registration. The public range I live near requires a copy of the AW registration before being allowed to shoot. As distasteful as I find it, I expect to be detained by L E while out in public with an AW. I will comply with the range staff and L E.

Courts have given Game Wardens more latitude regarding searches and seizure than any other L E Officers. They can stop and search a vehicle with no P C whatsoever other than just being in an area where hunting can occur.

An un registered automobile is only an infraction and law does require a sticker on the license plate.

I believe the courts would side with L E on this one due to the nature of an AW in public and public safety. This, of course would have to be tested in court. I believe this is a fight I do not want to take on. If you want to take it on, be my guest.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 8:25 AM
What if you see a rifle built on OLL without a magazine lock but with regular magazine release? What if you see a guy with bullet button reloading with 30 round magazines? As an LEO, you cannot check it out?

This is the point I've been trying to make to J-Cat. He tries to deal in "Absolutes" when they don't exist in the world of street policing. One step leads to another. You have to go thru the numbers, 1-2-3-4-5; you can't go 1-2-5, or you get tossed out in court for obvious reasons.

By his logic, if I saw a machine gun at a legal shooting range, I couldn't verify that it was leagally possessed because it is at a place where it is legal to shoot. The logic just doesn't work.

I'm tired of explaining it to him.

My goal here is not to bash anyone, even if I disagree with their political views. My goal is to stop the spread of incorrect information that could get someone into an ugly legal situation that could easily be avoided. Part of the 'Serve and Protect' to borrow another agencies motto.

Aloha to ALL!

May you guns be fun, your bullets plenty, and your friendships forever......

J-cat
06-09-2009, 8:25 AM
How about someone with an AW and subject is obviously not old enough to have been of age when the AWB went into effect.

That is an additional factor added to the mix. We can throw other factors: Full-auto malfunction, etc. that will create resonable suspicion.

What we're arguing about is your basic encounter at the shooting range.

BTW, the second AW law went into effect in 2001. Are we talking about toddlers here?

J-cat
06-09-2009, 8:29 AM
J-cat, So you work for CDC. (California Department Of Corrections) for those of you not familiar with the term.

I commend you for your work in our states penal system. It takes a special sort to stay confined with, and tend to the worst of the worst in our society. Hats off to you.

Thank You. Fortunately, I'm no longer confined. I've been in the field for a long time and I love it.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 8:38 AM
Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?

The CA courts allow checkpoints with certain limitations, one of which is prior notice and randomness. See Ingersol v. Palmer.

Still, this is different from our original scenario.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 8:57 AM
What if you see a rifle built on OLL without a magazine lock but with regular magazine release? What if you see a guy with bullet button reloading with 30 round magazines? As an LEO, you cannot check it out?

That is, again, an additional factor.

The "reasonable" in reasonable suspicion refers to a reasonable officer with the same experience and training. The law assumes the officer is competent. An officer has no business investigating matters he does not know about. An investigation is an inquiry into whether a law was violated, not a learning exercise about the law itself.

The US Supreme Court has a well established doctrine: In criminal proceedings, any ambiguity in the law shall be considered in favor of the defendant. US v Thompson Center Arms.

I expect, as do the courts, the officer to know the AW law before jamming someone over a 30-round mag with a bullet button.

In the original scenario, we're talking about a compliant rifle possessed by an inconspicuous person on a public range surrounded by similar individuals. If we throw in additional factors, such as obviously illegal characteristics, then YES the officer has the right to investigate. But without anything else, are we all subject to harassment every time we leave our house?

Certain people here think that mere possession of an AW is, on it's face, evidence of illegal activity. It is not. Not at a public range, anyway.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 8:59 AM
The state of California has determined that the possession of an unregistered AW is a felony. An unregistered AW is contraband. Having an AW in public (at a public range) just may be P C to detain for a L E officer to check. If you were to interfere and get arrested for a 148P.C. charge, it might be up held. Every time I take my AW's out, I have a copy of my AW registration. The public range I live near requires a copy of the AW registration before being allowed to shoot. As distasteful as I find it, I expect to be detained by L E while out in public with an AW. I will comply with the range staff and L E.

Courts have given Game Wardens more latitude regarding searches and seizure than any other L E Officers. They can stop and search a vehicle with no P C whatsoever other than just being in an area where hunting can occur.

An un registered automobile is only an infraction and law does require a sticker on the license plate.

I believe the courts would side with L E on this one due to the nature of an AW in public and public safety. This, of course would have to be tested in court. I believe this is a fight I do not want to take on. If you want to take it on, be my guest.

I'm not a CO.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too. Do cops have the right to detain everyone at the range everytime the range opens for business?

J-cat
06-09-2009, 9:06 AM
This is the point I've been trying to make to J-Cat. He tries to deal in "Absolutes" when they don't exist in the world of street policing. One step leads to another. You have to go thru the numbers, 1-2-3-4-5; you can't go 1-2-5, or you get tossed out in court for obvious reasons.

By his logic, if I saw a machine gun at a legal shooting range, I couldn't verify that it was leagally possessed because it is at a place where it is legal to shoot. The logic just doesn't work.

I'm tired of explaining it to him.

My goal here is not to bash anyone, even if I disagree with their political views. My goal is to stop the spread of incorrect information that could get someone into an ugly legal situation that could easily be avoided. Part of the 'Serve and Protect' to borrow another agencies motto.

Aloha to ALL!

May you guns be fun, your bullets plenty, and your friendships forever......

Your argument is ridiculous.

A machinegun is illegal period. So are silencers. These are obviously illegal characteristics. An AW is not illegal if it is registered. The same goes for handguns.

Do you think you have the right to run every handgun at the range to see if it is registered?

strangerdude
06-09-2009, 9:09 AM
Well, cops are not better than the public. There are good ones and bad ones. If someone wants to verbally bash them, they have the right to. After all, cops are always caught on video bashing the face of an innocent person. We have the right to at least say what we feel. As I am typing this I am watching the news and they are reporting on a female Detective for LAPD who murdered her boyfriends ex-girlfriend 20 years ago. Cops don't deserve to be glorified, that's all I'm saying.

Fire in the Hole
06-09-2009, 9:17 AM
Well, cops are not better than the public. There are good ones and bad ones. If someone wants to verbally bash them, they have the right to. After all, cops are always caught on video bashing the face of an innocent person. We have the right to at least say what we feel. As I am typing this I am watching the news and they are reporting on a female Detective for LAPD who murdered her boyfriends ex-girlfriend 20 years ago. Cops don't deserve to be glorified, that's all I'm saying.


You just can't exercise that right here.

Kestryll
06-09-2009, 9:46 AM
If someone wants to verbally bash them, they have the right to.

Not in this forum they don't.

Read the rules, abide by them or do not post in here.

strangerdude
06-09-2009, 9:49 AM
Not in this forum they don't.

Read the rules, abide by them or do not post in here.

SIR, YES SIR!

AaronHorrocks
06-09-2009, 9:53 AM
I don't bash cops here, I put that in the off-topic section! ;)

I've had a Livermore officer perform an illegal search on my property, and cause damage... thus far has been unresolved.

I've had my truck SHOT (at home in Livermore), and the officer that arrived refused to file a report.

My girlfriend and I were out to dinner (in Concord), when the truck was vandalized, and her phone, my camera, and some ammo and tools were stolen. We filed this report online to Concord PD, and it was rejected.

And that has been my experience with local "law enforcement" just over the last couple of years. I'm very unhappy with them, as I could only assume that you too would be if you've gone through the same stuff.

paladin4415
06-09-2009, 9:53 AM
Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too.

Not true. Handguns that you had before the state required registration are still legal to possess, and there is no requirement to register them now.

paladin4415
06-09-2009, 9:57 AM
A machinegun is illegal period. So are silencers.

There many legal machine guns in California, supressors also.

FLIGHT762
06-09-2009, 10:05 AM
I'm not a CO.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too. Do cops have the right to detain everyone at the range everytime the range opens for business?

Possession of an unregistered handgun is not illegal in this state. In 1998, the law was changed that all Private party transfers of all firearms go through an FFL. Handguns are required to be DROS'ED.
If you legally owned the handgun prior to 1998, there is no mandatory pistol registration.
From DOJ's web site:

"There is no firearm registration requirement in California except for assault weapon owners and personal handgun importers. However, you may submit a Firearm Ownership Record to the DOJ for any firearm you own. Having a Firearm Ownership Record on file with the DOJ may help in the return of your firearm if it is lost or stolen."

If I bought handguns through PPT prior to 1998, I do not have to register them.

There are penalty enhancements for illegally carrying a handgun not registered to you.

Your repeated use of the "unregistered handgun" doesn't hold. There is no requirement that all handguns in the state of California be registered.

In my post, I am referring to Assault Weapons. As I posted earlier, I believe a LEO can legally detain at a public range to determine if the AW is registered, is contraband or is a legal OLL.

If you were to resist the LEO's check and were arrested for 148 P C, It is my opinion that you would probably loose. If you are a LEO and are convicted of 148 P C, you would also have a battle keeping your job.

As I said, I won't fight that battle. If a LEO asks me to see if my AW's are registered, I will comply with them and range staff. Anyone else is another matter.

As a honorably retired LEO with a CCW privileges, I am not required to have my AW's in a locked container when transporting them.

Kestryll
06-09-2009, 10:12 AM
SIR, YES SIR!

GOOD ANSWER!!

Now tell me why I can't see my reflection in those shoes!!

Fire in the Hole
06-09-2009, 10:25 AM
I don't bash cops here, I put that in the off-topic section! ;)

I've had a Livermore officer perform an illegal search on my property, and cause damage... thus far has been unresolved.

I've had my truck SHOT (at home in Livermore), and the officer that arrived refused to file a report.

My girlfriend and I were out to dinner (in Concord), when the truck was vandalized, and her phone, my camera, and some ammo and tools were stolen. We filed this report online to Concord PD, and it was rejected.

And that has been my experience with local "law enforcement" just over the last couple of years. I'm very unhappy with them, as I could only assume that you too would be if you've gone through the same stuff.

I'm sure that your post wasn't just for venting your dislike, or frustration with a government agency; becase that would violate Rule #3, which I'm sure you've read and agreed to abide to. So what exactly is your direct non-hypothetical question for the LEO's on this forum. I was unable to find a question mark (?) at the end of any of your sentences, but I want to give you the benifit of the doubt. What question that I might knowledge of, and that I can speak intelligently with you about, do you want to ask?

yzernie
06-09-2009, 10:36 AM
I don't bash cops here, I put that in the off-topic section! ;)

I've had a Livermore officer perform an illegal search on my property, and cause damage... thus far has been unresolved.

I've had my truck SHOT (at home in Livermore), and the officer that arrived refused to file a report.

My girlfriend and I were out to dinner (in Concord), when the truck was vandalized, and her phone, my camera, and some ammo and tools were stolen. We filed this report online to Concord PD, and it was rejected.

And that has been my experience with local "law enforcement" just over the last couple of years. I'm very unhappy with them, as I could only assume that you too would be if you've gone through the same stuff.
Here's a bit of information you may not know. There is no mandate by statute for an LEO or employees of a law enforcement agency to take a report of a crime that has occurred. It is the expectation of the public that we take reports but it is not mandated.

While it seems you have had some frustrating incidents with Livermore and Concord P.D.'s, for you to throw a blanket of negativity over all of law enforcement is, IMO, unwarranted bias on your part. That would be like saying that everyone who lives in Oakland is a Crip or a Blood...simply not an accurate description of reality.

I'll be the first to admit there are some loose cannons in law enforcement these days but I gaurantee you there are far more good ones then bad. Those of us who have been around for a while take the younger group and try to educate them. If they don't want to get in line, and I am only speaking for me, I'll sit back and smile as I watch them tube their careers.

geeknow
06-09-2009, 10:56 AM
Yep. Pretty much.

I'm going to go on my soap box for jsut a couple of seconds here so bear with me please. These comments do not apply to everyone here. Only to a select few. Take a moment to ponder them.

The LEO's and attorneys that are members of this forum share a "like mind" wiht the rest of you. We are here to participate, answer your questions, and obtain information that we can not get elsewhere. OLL's for instance. We support the second ammendment. We support CCW. We support firearm shooting and ownership. We may be the silent minority, but we do come here to help and get help. Why then do certain menbers of this forum take advantage of their annonimity to insult, chastise, criticise, and berate us? We are on you side. When you do these things to us, you are not fostering a partnership between us. You are driving a wedge between us. How can any LEO or attorney objectively answer how you were falsely arrested, wrongfuly charged, maliciously prosecuted, and incorrectly found guilty, without a full review of the minute details of your particular case. How can I correctly discuss the height vs weight ratio of a given LEO?

In closing, remember when you seek free legal advice; you get what you pay for.

Thank you for your kind attention.

This, in my opinion, is the type of exchange that we should all strive for. Further, I will theorize that if we applied these words PRIOR to entering into a LEO/ non-LEO discussion, we would all have made great strides in eliminating the "wedge" noted above. For the record, I do absolutely believe that this "wedge" mentality exists (on both sides), for all the wrong reasons, and much to the detriment of us all...

as this is a free opinion forum, you have just received mine...

Fire in the Hole
06-09-2009, 10:57 AM
Base to AaronHorrocks, Base to AaronHorrocks, Come in AaronHorrocks. Over.

SVT-40
06-09-2009, 10:59 AM
Thank You. Fortunately, I'm no longer confined. I've been in the field for a long time and I love it.

J-cat, Seriously Since you do not work for a Police dept, Sheriffs dept or CHP You really get zero experience in really dealing with common search and seizure issues.

It's a different ball game when you are on patrol actively looking for violations of the law, or POTENTIAL law violations. Working for the CDC you deal with wards of the state. They have no rights or limited rights in dealing with searches.

Police Deputies and the CHP deal with these complex search and seizure issues each and every citizen contact.

J-cat I mean no disrespect to you by my following statement.

I think you do a disservice to the members here and run the risk of giving out bad advice because of your lack of real experience in dealing with day to day search and seizure issues.

Now if there is a question regarding the rights of a ward of the state, You would be the man for the answer. Just not answers for day to day police work issues.


Each case is different.

It's up to each officer to justify his actions when writing a crime report. He must include all his Probable cause so his case is filed by the D.A.'s office.

It's my opinion that a reasonable officer COULD most likely be justified in a quick check of what appeared to him to be a illegally configured assault weapon anywhere. Ranges included.

The contact with the individual with the rifle could take only seconds to determine the rifles legality.

Most of the delay in the contact would probably come from the subject being checked if he causes problems or acts in an unreasonable way. Thus prolonging the contact.

GUNMANN
06-09-2009, 11:09 AM
People are People, regardless of their job title even though we hold LEO at a higher standard..... don't stereo type. Be fair and evaluate each as an individual and the CHP for the 67 in a 65 is a pathetic performance of his job....

AaronHorrocks
06-09-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm sure that your post wasn't just for venting your dislike, or frustration with a government agency; becase that would violate Rule #3, which I'm sure you've read and agreed to abide to. So what exactly is your direct non-hypothetical question for the LEO's on this forum. I was unable to find a question mark (?) at the end of any of your sentences, but I want to give you the benifit of the doubt. What question that I might knowledge of, and that I can speak intelligently with you about, do you want to ask?

Here's a question: What else can I do?

What should I do about my damaged property?
How can the police get away with rejecting the report of stolen property (including AMMO)? can I do anything else????


While it seems you have had some frustrating incidents with Livermore and Concord P.D.'s, for you to throw a blanket of negativity over all of law enforcement is, IMO, unwarranted bias on your part. That would be like saying that everyone who lives in Oakland is a Crip or a Blood...simply not an accurate description of reality.


I have done no such thing. Infact my list of problems with the Livermore PD is about 3 times longer. I have a bunch of dirt on the Hayward PD too. I've never "thrown a blanket of negativety" over all LEOs, and my bias is well earned and warrented - backed by experience and facts.

I have been pulled over twice in Colorado by the Sheriffs Department, and both times they were courteous and helpful, and also let me go without a ticket. My dealings with locals however, have been much more of the tone "why are you bothing me?"

Fire in the Hole
06-09-2009, 11:19 AM
I agree that warrantless bashing of LEOs is rude, uncalled for, and should be proscribed. Nevertheless, I think Calguns should promote a healthy, but respectful, give-and-take between LEOs and the citizenry they are supposed to serve.

Well it's hard to take a contrary viewpoint with your statement. I do believe that there should be mature, patient, and diplomatic discussion and even debate here. For the non-LEO's that come here to ask questions like, "Why did Officer X arrest me, and then lie about it at trial?" Can not be intelligently answered here, so don't waste your and our time with such enquiries. They serve no useful purpose at all.

For those who still insist on just venting, or getting something off their chest, may I refer you to this website.

www.pissandmoan.com

Yes, it's a real website.

6172crew
06-09-2009, 11:30 AM
Here's a question: What else can I do?

What should I do about my damaged property?
How can the police get away with rejecting the report of stolen property (including AMMO)? can I do anything else????





I have done no such thing. Infact my list of problems with the Livermore PD is about 3 times longer. I have a bunch of dirt on the Hayward PD too. I've never "thrown a blanket of negativety" over all LEOs, and my bias is well earned and warrented - backed by experience and facts.

I have been pulled over twice in Colorado by the Sheriffs Department, and both times they were courteous and helpful, and also let me go without a ticket. My dealings with locals however, have been much more of the tone "why are you bothing me?"

Im not a cop but I have had good luck using them when I needed reports. Id say a phone call to the desk SGT or LT could explain why they don't or didn't take a report. Being polite should be the only rule to stick to, even if your frustrated.

I called one time about some kids down at the elementary school after 9 pm and a dispatcher asked me "so what do you want me to do about it?"

I explained that 3 nights before they whipped the crap out of one of the kids and when I jumped into help about 5 of them came after me, (they are all 10-13 years old) and I want them to come down and tell the kids to get off the school grounds.

She responded "ok". Sounded weird to me that she didnt want to dispatch a car to enforce the laws being on the grounds after hours but I guess maybe she was thinking what the hell else are these kids supposed to do.

Also the kid that got beat was friends with the others and it was some kind of gang or fight club deal. In the town of Clayton/Concord so it was kinda funny to think about it after.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 11:30 AM
Here's a question: What else can I do?




Hmmmm............How about, "Go Away?"

If you have specific issues with an individual officer or Department there are proper channels for that. You won't solve them here.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm not a CO.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too.



Oh really, show me where it says that.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 11:39 AM
Your argument is ridiculous.

A machinegun is illegal period.

Oh really? I just went shooting last month with a private individual in California who has over 100 machine guns. All LEGAL !

So are silencers.

See above

These are obviously illegal characteristics. An AW is not illegal if it is registered. The same goes for handguns.

Show me where it says handguns have to be registered.

Do you think you have the right to run every handgun at the range to see if it is registered?

If I have reasonable suspicion that there is criminal activity going on, yes, I can run it. The need to run 'every handgun' is highly unlikely and would definitely be a unique situation.



While permits to have machineguns and silencers are extremely hard to get, they can be obtained.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 11:47 AM
I expect, as do the courts, the officer to know the AW law before jamming someone over a 30-round mag with a bullet button.



In case you didn't know, putting a 30 round magazine in an OLL (with other evil features) makes it an illegal assault weapon.

If you had a legally registered AW, why in blazes would anyone put a bullet button on it? If you didn't have other evil features, you wouldn't need it either.

(No disrespect to the designers of the Bullet Button and similar devices - You guys are up for sainthood in my book)


Please stop spreading mis-information.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm not a CO.

OK, we've established that you're not a CO, so what kind of "peace officer" are you? You keep dodging the question.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too.

Wrong!



I'm 830.1 PC as a Deputy Sheriff with 32 years in the same department and proud of it.

What are you?

SVT-40
06-09-2009, 12:16 PM
AaronHorrocks: I'm sorry for the bad incidents you have had with your local P.D.'s.

If your vehicle was hit by gunfire a report should have been taken.

Regarding the thefts you have been a victim of. Again a report should have been taken.

Regarding a "on line" report ( never heard of those) do you know why it was rejected? It could be due to some oversight on your part or computer issue. I don't know.

In the future if you are not happy with the service of your local P.D. you might give the watch sergeant a call. When you talk to him don't have an attitude. Be polite and ask for an explanation. If you can tell the Sgt. that you truly need a report. He may take a personal interest in your plight.

Another thought. Sometimes officers document incidents on "incident reports" or similar means. These "incident reports" are usually used when the offense is minor and there is no suspect or follow up information available.

You might call the P.D's involved in your prior incidents and enquirer if there was a "incident" report or similar documentation. They are usually logged by the date and time of your original phone call to the police.

Don't get bogged down in blaming all LEO's for the faults and mistakes you listed. So I for one again apologize for the lack of good customer service by those members of the departments you named.

Fire in the Hole
06-09-2009, 12:55 PM
I don't bash cops here, I put that in the off-topic section! ;)

I've had a Livermore officer perform an illegal search on my property, and cause damage... thus far has been unresolved.

I've had my truck SHOT (at home in Livermore), and the officer that arrived refused to file a report.

My girlfriend and I were out to dinner (in Concord), when the truck was vandalized, and her phone, my camera, and some ammo and tools were stolen. We filed this report online to Concord PD, and it was rejected.

And that has been my experience with local "law enforcement" just over the last couple of years. I'm very unhappy with them, as I could only assume that you too would be if you've gone through the same stuff.

Okay, for starters I don't know the time periods involved here. Some of this may be too stale to get an effective result with. But I'll try to take them one at a time. Remember my rule though. "You own the answer, and never ask a question that you don't want to here the answer to." Having said that; here goes:

Q1: "I've had a Livermore officer perform an illegal search on my property, and cause damage... thus far has been unresolved."
A1: Did the Livermore P.D., City Attorney, and possibly the DA agree with your assertion that it was in fact an 'illegal search?" If so this should expedite your claim. Did you file a Board of Control Claim, seeking reimbursement for the property damage? These typically take up to six months to resolve, as they have to pass through different layers of the system. If you have waited this long without hearing anything, then contact the city councilman that represents your district, and ask him/her to intervene on your behalf. Have you gone through your homeowners insurance? Depending upon your deductable, they can pay to repair the damage, and they can seek reimbursement from the P.D. That way the monkey is off your back. Lastly seek the advice of an attorney.

Q2: "I've had my truck SHOT (at home in Livermore), and the officer that arrived refused to file a report."
A2: What was the Officer's reason? I'm sure you must have asked him at the time. Contrary to popular belief, Officers are not required to take a report if they believe that it is just paper for the sake of paper. LE management is starting to introduce "Solveability Factors" into each case to justify the field officer's report down time. You can always go to the police station and file a "Counter Report" on your own. This is becoming more the norm, with lay-offs, furloughs, and fuel budget cost cutting. When was the last time you heard of an MD making a house call like they use to do?

Q3: "My girlfriend and I were out to dinner (in Concord), when the truck was vandalized, and her phone, my camera, and some ammo and tools were stolen. We filed this report online to Concord PD, and it was rejected."
A3: I've tried to submit such things as purchases on line and if I omitted one required line entry, or didn't use () around my area code, etc., it's been rejected. Did you correctly fillout each line item? Lastly it could have been a server error. Did you get any error code when it was rejected? Try going into the Concord P.D. Station, and fill out a Counter Report.



There ya go.

TRICKSTER
06-09-2009, 1:31 PM
That is an additional factor added to the mix. We can throw other factors: Full-auto malfunction, etc. that will create resonable suspicion.

What we're arguing about is your basic encounter at the shooting range.

BTW, the second AW law went into effect in 2001. Are we talking about toddlers here?

Obviously this has become a total waste of time and at this point you are just trolling. You also seem to lack any knowledge when it comes to California gun laws and math. You must be 18 years old to purchase a long gun. that means a person owning a legal AW would have been at least 18 in 2001. It is now 2009. Anyone that is younger than 26 years old could not have purchased an AW before the 2001 ban. With that note, I am going to stop wasting my time and move on to someone who wants a serious discussion instead of stirring up and spreading FUD.

Jonathan Doe
06-09-2009, 2:54 PM
I have taken enough reports for various crimes in my time on the streets. If there is a crime occurred and the LEO refused to take a report, he/she will be in a hot seat if they cannot justify why they didn't take the report. If you are unhappy with the agency of your area, you can discuss it with the management, or go to neighboring agency and have them file a courtesy report. They will forward the report to the right agency. I have taken plenty of courtesy reports for other abencies in the past.

And regarding on AW, if I am on duty and happened to see a guy with OLL rifle and he puts in a 30 round mag, or just using a finger to release the mag, I will definitely check his rifle out.

retired
06-09-2009, 5:09 PM
I have taken enough reports for various crimes in my time on the streets. If there is a crime occurred and the LEO refused to take a report, he/she will be in a hot seat if they cannot justify why they didn't take the report. If you are unhappy with the agency of your area, you can discuss it with the management, or go to neighboring agency and have them file a courtesy report. They will forward the report to the right agency. I have taken plenty of courtesy reports for other agencies in the past.

And regarding on AW, if I am on duty and happened to see a guy with OLL rifle and he puts in a 30 round mag, or just using a finger to release the mag, I will definitely check his rifle out.

Isn't that the truth! I once took a 211 report for an agency whose first 2 letters are the same as our dept.'s (;)), because their officer refused to take it, even tho the guy literally, after being beaten, dragged himself along the street, in the pouring rain, to where the officer was citing someone. Told him to go home and have the county take it tho it occurred in his area.:eek:

I won't even add to the main point here as it has been more than adequately answered by others here.

Jonathan Doe
06-09-2009, 6:06 PM
I used to live in a area where it was patrolled by a big agency. One day, a passer by let me know that someone hung a cat, a dead one now, on my back gate to the alley. I called the agency and they refused to take the report. I took the incident as a threat but they didn't care. I ended up calling my watch commander who in turn the WC of the agency. They then sent out a sgt and an officer. They kept trying to kiss it off.

I ended up tellin gthe officer how to write a report under what title. Go figure. I feel the pain of people got kissed off a report.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 9:54 PM
J-cat, Seriously Since you do not work for a Police dept, Sheriffs dept or CHP You really get zero experience in really dealing with common search and seizure issues.

It's a different ball game when you are on patrol actively looking for violations of the law, or POTENTIAL law violations. Working for the CDC you deal with wards of the state. They have no rights or limited rights in dealing with searches.

Police Deputies and the CHP deal with these complex search and seizure issues each and every citizen contact.

J-cat I mean no disrespect to you by my following statement.

I think you do a disservice to the members here and run the risk of giving out bad advice because of your lack of real experience in dealing with day to day search and seizure issues.

Now if there is a question regarding the rights of a ward of the state, You would be the man for the answer. Just not answers for day to day police work issues.


Each case is different.

It's up to each officer to justify his actions when writing a crime report. He must include all his Probable cause so his case is filed by the D.A.'s office.

It's my opinion that a reasonable officer COULD most likely be justified in a quick check of what appeared to him to be a illegally configured assault weapon anywhere. Ranges included.

The contact with the individual with the rifle could take only seconds to determine the rifles legality.

Most of the delay in the contact would probably come from the subject being checked if he causes problems or acts in an unreasonable way. Thus prolonging the contact.

I run into search/seizure issues more frequently than you think. The wards of the state, as you call them, associate with free citizens who become entangled in search/seizure issues by that virtue. I have to sort out whom I detain and search, who gets to walk away depending on the circumstances of the contact. I don't know what you do, but you obviously don't know what I do. I've been dealing with this issue for a long time, so please don't tell me I don't have any experience.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 9:54 PM
I used to work with a guy who would spend 30 minutes trying to kiss off a 10 minute report. Used to piss me off on a regular basis. Thankfully I didn't work with him very long.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 9:57 PM
I run into search/seizure issues more frequently than you think. The wards of the state, as you call them, associate with free citizens who become entangled in search/seizure issues by that virtue. I have to sort out whom I detain and search, who gets to walk away depending on the circumstances of the contact. I don't know what you do, but you obviously don't know what I do. I've been dealing with this issue for a long time, so please don't tell me I don't have any experience.

You still keep dodging the question posed many times......What do you do?

J-cat
06-09-2009, 10:00 PM
Obviously this has become a total waste of time and at this point you are just trolling. You also seem to lack any knowledge when it comes to California gun laws and math. You must be 18 years old to purchase a long gun. that means a person owning a legal AW would have been at least 18 in 2001. It is now 2009. Anyone that is younger than 26 years old could not have purchased an AW before the 2001 ban. With that note, I am going to stop wasting my time and move on to someone who wants a serious discussion instead of stirring up and spreading FUD.

Wow, are you capable of pointing out a mistake without hurling insults?

I don't know anything about gun laws? So my statement about AW being legal to possess at a public shooting range is incorrect?

I say you don't know anything about courteous interaction with other human beings.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 10:03 PM
You still keep dodging the question posed many times......What do you do?

Why is that so important to you? I keep asking you to make a logical argument supporting your position instead of dwelling on my credentials. You are the one dodging.

Please explain how mere possession of an AW at a public shooting range rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is occurring.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 10:05 PM
There many legal machine guns in California, supressors also.

But they are in possession of law enforcement and movie studios, not common joes.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 10:06 PM
Not true. Handguns that you had before the state required registration are still legal to possess, and there is no requirement to register them now.

But handhuns obtained afterward are not, are they.

ST5MF
06-09-2009, 10:14 PM
But they are in possession of law enforcement and movie studios, not common joes.

...Class II Manufacturers, C3 Dealers, Prop Masters...

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 10:19 PM
Why is that so important to you? I keep asking you to make a logical argument supporting your position instead of dwelling on my credentials. You are the one dodging.



I ask because you keep boasting of your vast experience in search and seizure, but your info is mis-guided and inaccurate.

And you keep dodging the question....still

Based on your posts, I doubt you are a peace officer. You are definitely not a City Police Officer, Deputy Sheriff, or CHP. You answers show that very clearly.

To put it bluntly..........Put Up, or Shut Up.


If you'll notice, there are many other veteran officers and deputy sheriff's that are trying to explain to you that your information is incorrect.

Please, STOP THE MIS-INFORMATION[ before your advice gets someone in legal trouble.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 10:21 PM
But they are in possession of law enforcement and movie studios, not common joes.

You are showing your lack of knowledge again.

Ron-Solo
06-09-2009, 10:25 PM
[QUOTE=J-cat;2609128]But handhuns obtained afterward are not, are they.[/QUOTE


You are confusing the DROS procedure with registration. They are not the same thing.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 10:46 PM
I ask because you keep boasting of your vast experience in search and seizure, but your info is mis-guided and inaccurate.

And you keep dodging the question....still

Based on your posts, I doubt you are a peace officer. You are definitely not a City Police Officer, Deputy Sheriff, or CHP. You answers show that very clearly.

To put it bluntly..........Put Up, or Shut Up.


If you'll notice, there are many other veteran officers and deputy sheriff's that are trying to explain to you that your information is incorrect.

Please, STOP THE MIS-INFORMATION[ before your advice gets someone in legal trouble.

I did not boast about my "vast" experience. You are mischaracterizing my previous posts. You are the one who challenged my credentials without addressing the argument. This is like the fifth time I asked you to address the argument, not the credentials.

If you haven't figured out what I do by now, you are not who you represent yourself to be.

J-cat
06-09-2009, 10:49 PM
You are showing your lack of knowledge again.

So common Joes get to own silencers and machineguns? If so, then why do you get to detain them just by that virtue alone?

Eroland7
06-09-2009, 11:03 PM
Maybe he mops the halls and takes out the trash at the Police Dept??

J-cat
06-09-2009, 11:05 PM
Not everyone is like you.

Eroland7
06-09-2009, 11:06 PM
good one...

pummel
06-09-2009, 11:23 PM
Sounds like with all the hints J-cat's throwing out, he's a Parole Agent.

TRICKSTER
06-09-2009, 11:26 PM
Wow, are you capable of pointing out a mistake without hurling insults?

I don't know anything about gun laws? So my statement about AW being legal to possess at a public shooting range is incorrect?

I say you don't know anything about courteous interaction with other human beings.

Iggy is that you?

:rofl2::fud::nopity::beatdeadhorse5::icon_bs:

J-cat
06-10-2009, 12:03 AM
You are a professional keyboard commando, no doubt.

ST5MF
06-10-2009, 12:37 AM
You LEO's fight like Sonny and Cher...

"Can't we all just get along?"

WTBS I think the "ask" an LEO thing is a "wash" at this point.

There are good and bad LEO's and there are certainly tons of "clowns" with a badge.

yzernie
06-10-2009, 6:01 AM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j215/yzernie/popcorn.gif

Ron-Solo
06-10-2009, 7:02 AM
I did not boast about my "vast" experience. You are mischaracterizing my previous posts. You are the one who challenged my credentials without addressing the argument. This is like the fifth time I asked you to address the argument, not the credentials.

An other dodge...........imagine that. What are you hiding?

If you haven't figured out what I do by now, you are not who you represent yourself to be.

I prefer not to make guesses. I have my suspicions, but don't want to jump to conclusions or make assumptions.


As far as "addressing the argument" as you put it, I believe I have, several times. You have made several references to your "working the field" and your experience with search & seizure issues.

Once again.............Put Up, or Shut Up.

You keep making incorrect statements regarding the law and search & seizure issues and I don't want to see someone get in legal trouble from following your advice because you keep trying to pass yourself off as an expert based on your "field experience" as you put it.

J-cat
06-10-2009, 7:28 AM
You have not. You said that AW's are illegal, therefore that is your RS. That is not an explanation. That is rephrasing the issue we're discussing.

Nobody is going to get into legal trouble. I did not excourage anyone to break the law or to disobey an order from a LEO.

As far as what I do, you still haven't figured it out? Are you serious? You're no cop.

This isn't a pissing contest about credentials.

Curtis
06-10-2009, 7:29 AM
I know what you mean. I've visited several forums including this one where you are suppose to be able to ask a Cop a question, and receive an answer. Then, end of story. However after the question is posed, there will be a string of posts that begin with the sentence "I'm not LEO, but here's what I think. Or here's what I would do in that situation. Then when a bonified LEO does get an answer in, Someone will tell the LEO that he's wrong, or that's not what an LEO in a bar told him, or that he must be proud of himself for giving that answer, or that his answer won't hold up in court, and so forth and so on.


I wonder if Proctologists have such a forum where if a non-Proctologist asks a question, a bunch of forum members jump in and say: "I'm not a Proctologist, but here's how I would approach the situation. When a Proctologists does squeeze in an answer, someone counters with; "We'll I'd sue you then, Your are a disgrace to Proctology. You should not be in this line of work!"


Just wondering.

I'm an engineer and I face this situation all the time: we call it "Plan Check."

J-cat
06-10-2009, 9:20 AM
Ron-Solo,

Specifically, what Penal Code section violation are you investigating when you decide to harass a public shooting range customer?

My reading of the Penal Code shows only one section making simple possession of an AW illegal: PC 12280

Any person who, within this state, possesses any assault
weapon, except as provided in this chapter, shall be punished by
imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or
by imprisonment in the state prison.

That very same Penal Code section also says that it does not apply to anyone who possesses a registered AW:

(o) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall not apply to any of the
following persons:
(1) A person acting in accordance with Section 12285.

Since possession of a registered AW is not illegal, the only Penal Code section you are left with is 12285 which specifically permits possession of said AW at a public shooting range:

(c) A person who has registered an assault weapon or registered a
.50 BMG rifle under this section may possess it only under any of
the following conditions unless a permit allowing additional uses is
first obtained under Section 12286:
(1) At that person's residence, place of business, or other
property owned by that person, or on property owned by another with
the owner's express permission.
(2) While on the premises of a target range of a public or private
club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing
shooting at targets.

In light of the above, where is your reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?

Otherwise, you are just fishing.

There is nothing in the Penal Code requiring anyone to furnish proof of AW registration to a peace officer.

The only law that imposes such a duty is the Vehicle Code:

4462. (a) The driver of a motor vehicle shall present the
registration or identification card or other evidence of registration
of any or all vehicles under his or her immediate control for
examination upon demand of any peace officer.

Are you confusing the Penal Code with the Vehicle Code?

masameet
06-10-2009, 10:05 AM
You know, the irony of this thread is two cops are bashing each other.

Where on the worldwide web but Calguns would such a thing occur? lol

Ducman
06-10-2009, 10:48 AM
You know, the irony of this thread is two cops are bashing each other.

Where on the worldwide web but Calguns would such a thing occur? lol

+1 Just to darn funny :)

Masameet, are you also member at ducati.ms ???

nobody33
06-10-2009, 10:57 AM
You know, the irony of this thread is two cops are bashing each other.

Where on the worldwide web but Calguns would such a thing occur? lol

Dude, this is nothing. Officer.com it happens all the time. The trooper vs city cop debates are pretty funny.

masameet
06-10-2009, 12:31 PM
I think I've read some of those threads on Officer.com. lol

But this thread is entitled "Why do so many come in here and BASH COPS."

Why indeed? LOL

masameet
06-10-2009, 12:34 PM
+1 Just to darn funny :)

... are you also member at ducati.ms ???

Joined because I was thinking of getting a Monster. Never posted. But then got a DRZ400SM as my second bike. It's still my favorite bike. :)

rolly
06-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Joined because I was thinking of getting a Monster. Never posted. But then got a DRZ400SM as my second bike. It's still my favorite bike. :)

use to ride a 996...I was an easy target for the cops.
then "i was crashed" between 2 cars and later I got a ZX10R ...again an easy target for cops (no kidding got a ticket while I was 5mph stopping at a traffic light!!!)
Now I only go to the track, no more street riding!!!

so far I got 75% bad experience (where cops were making up stories to give me a ticket) and 25% "good" experience (when I desserved the ticket) but never got a warning for speeding nor any help from a cop after a crash (twice rear ended).

goathead
06-10-2009, 1:18 PM
use to ride a 996...I was an easy target for the cops.
then "i was crashed" between 2 cars and later I got a ZX10R ...again an easy target for cops (no kidding got a ticket while I was 5mph stopping at a traffic light!!!)
Now I only go to the track, no more street riding!!!

so far I got 75% bad experience (where cops were making up stories to give me a ticket) and 25% "good" experience (when I desserved the ticket) but never got a warning for speeding nor any help from a cop after a crash (twice rear ended).

may be its the way you drive i had VFR750 all red, cbr 600 all loud pipes i have had 5 other motorcycles and have never been pulled over

masameet
06-10-2009, 1:27 PM
I've been pulled over twice on my DRZ. But the very nice officers let me off. :) One of the officers was the late, great Sgt. Paul Starzyk. He was very generous in giving firearms advice.

Jonathan Doe
06-10-2009, 2:44 PM
I just have a question regarding an AW whoever can answer it, maybe between J-Cat and Ron-Solo. If I see a Double Star or Stag OLL rifle at the range, I know it is not listed on any categories of AW, which means it cannot have an AW features. If the shooter releases the magazine with the use of just a finger, and inserting a 30 round magazine, let's say I see him loading 30 rounds in the mag, does it not give a LEO a PC or RC to check out the rifle to see if the shooter is in violation?

J-Cat: I cannot check it?
Ron_Solo: I can check it?

What is the verdict? What does everyone think?

Ron-Solo
06-10-2009, 2:52 PM
I just have a question regarding an AW whoever can answer it, maybe between J-Cat and Ron-Solo. If I see a Double Star or Stag OLL rifle at the range, I know it is not listed on any categories of AW, which means it cannot have an AW features. If the shooter releases the magazine with the use of just a finger, and inserting a 30 round magazine, let's say I see him loading 30 rounds in the mag, does it not give a LEO a PC or RC to check out the rifle to see if the shooter is in violation?

J-Cat: I cannot check it?
Ron_Solo: I can check it?

What is the verdict? What does everyone think?

Yes, which is the point I've been trying to make. Since the OLLs were made after the AW ban went into effect, based on what you see the operator doing, you have 'reasonable suspicion' that the person may be in possession of an illegal AW. On it's face it is not enough to arrest, but it is sufficient to investigate further.

Ron

nobody33
06-10-2009, 2:59 PM
I just have a question regarding an AW whoever can answer it, maybe between J-Cat and Ron-Solo. If I see a Double Star or Stag OLL rifle at the range, I know it is not listed on any categories of AW, which means it cannot have an AW features. If the shooter releases the magazine with the use of just a finger, and inserting a 30 round magazine, let's say I see him loading 30 rounds in the mag, does it not give a LEO a PC or RC to check out the rifle to see if the shooter is in violation?

J-Cat: I cannot check it?
Ron_Solo: I can check it?

What is the verdict? What does everyone think?

You don't need RS or PC to walk up to the guy start a conversation and ask about it. If he refuses to talk about it then packs up and leaves I would say further investigation by DOJ would be warranted (writing down license plate, getting the info from the range if possible, running a DROS check, etc etc).

It's not very tactically sound to jam up someone holding an AW up at the range IMHO. If you wanted to I suppose, articulating RS for a detention on that would be easy.

Ron-Solo
06-10-2009, 3:19 PM
You have not. You said that AW's are illegal, therefore that is your RS. That is not an explanation. That is rephrasing the issue we're discussing.

No, I said possession of an unregistered AW was illegal. If, based on the officers training and experience, he recognizes the lower as one that was manufactured after the ban (i.e. an off-list lower) that is obviously built to be an AW by feature, he has 'reasonable suspicion' to investigate further. That does not mean he can make an arrest at that time. This applies if the contact is on the street, a range open to the public (or even a private range if he has the legal right to be there), an open shooting area such as BLM or National Forest land.


Nobody is going to get into legal trouble. I did not excourage anyone to break the law or to disobey an order from a LEO.

NO, you specifically told someone to tell the LEO to "F-Off" That advice, along with some of the other information you've put out, may very well indeed get someone in trouble.

As far as what I do, you still haven't figured it out? Are you serious? You're no cop.

This isn't a pissing contest about credentials.

Like I've said before, you are STILL DODGING THE QUESTION.



All you have committed to being is someone who has "peace officer" status and denied you are a Correctional Officer.

That leaves the field wide open. If you were a City Police officer, County Deputy Sheriff, or Highway Patrol Officer you would have said so. That leaves it open from the State Gaming Commission to the Veternary Licensing Board. Security Officers of a Water District and the Public Utilities Commission have "peace officer" powers (830.31 PC) Some others include Food and Drug Administration Investigators, Racing Board Investigators, and many others.

You claim your knowledge is based on your peace officer status, which is questionable, since you won't answer the question.

It leads to credibility, which is why you should quit dodging the question.

Ron-Solo
06-10-2009, 3:23 PM
You don't need RS or PC to walk up to the guy start a conversation and ask about it. If he refuses to talk about it then packs up and leaves I would say further investigation by DOJ would be warranted (writing down license plate, getting the info from the range if possible, running a DROS check, etc etc).

It's not very tactically sound to jam up someone holding an AW up at the range IMHO. If you wanted to I suppose, articulating RS for a detention on that would be easy.

Very true. Tactics is a whole different ballgame. What you can legally do and what you can do in a tactically sound manner are often two different things. Then throw in what is practical.......Especially if you are off duty. I can count on one hand where I've taken action off duty in the last 32 years.

TRICKSTER
06-10-2009, 3:29 PM
You have not. You said that AW's are illegal, therefore that is your RS. That is not an explanation. That is rephrasing the issue we're discussing.

Nobody is going to get into legal trouble. I did not excourage anyone to break the law or to disobey an order from a LEO.

As far as what I do, you still haven't figured it out? Are you serious? You're no cop.

This isn't a pissing contest about credentials.

Post #106
If you tell these guys to F-off, that's all they will be able to do.
:eek:
If you are a cop, you are a Defense Attorneys dream witness.

Fire in the Hole
06-10-2009, 4:11 PM
J-cat, I'm sitting here in excrutitating pain from surgery this am. Percoset and Kessler is only barely taking the edge off. We get enough tail-chasing and obtuse statements here from non LEO's. I have a lot of patience, but it is finite. I'm weary and tired of you playing "Riddle me this" and "20 questions" on this forum. For God's sake man, just state your occupation, and who you work for specificaliy. Here, I'll start the process so that you can learn from my example. U.S.Army MP, LASO Deputy Sheriff, CHP Officer. Presently full-time college student, working on a J.D. degree. Okay, so that's how it's done. Not only do I talk the Talk, I walk the walk. Your turn.

rolly
06-10-2009, 4:54 PM
may be its the way you drive i had VFR750 all red, cbr 600 all loud pipes i have had 5 other motorcycles and have never been pulled over

at 5mph !!!! or maybe bad luck ?

Ron-Solo
06-10-2009, 5:15 PM
Fire, hope you feel better soon.

lavgrunt
06-10-2009, 6:31 PM
Gentlemen,

I refer you to the following. I hope this settles the question once and for all:

12031 PC

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Jonathan Doe
06-10-2009, 6:48 PM
It seems like there is a dispute about the peace officer status on this board. There are so many different types of peace officer status based on PC 830.***. City officers, deputy sheriffs, ... are 830.1. Anyone here mind saying what their status is? I am 830.1. Maybe this can clear up some questions.

yzernie
06-10-2009, 7:03 PM
830.1

paladin4415
06-10-2009, 7:40 PM
830.1

lavgrunt
06-10-2009, 7:49 PM
Same.......830.1......in the OC

KaTooM
06-10-2009, 8:20 PM
420.69 Love and peace officer...never mind bad joke.

This thread has some miles on it now. For the record I have never bashed a Cop on here, or have any reason too. I also like to hear what is on thier minds as far as Gun control and other topics.

I also think if someone has a beef with leo's they should respecfully post about it after the fact.

SkyStorm82
06-10-2009, 8:28 PM
830.1