PDA

View Full Version : Loading more than 10 rounds into a mag...


maxicon
06-10-2005, 4:27 PM
This has been discussed before, but I've got a new variation on it.

The standard scenario is using a 10 round mag that will accept more than 10 rounds of another caliber and work in a pistol of the other caliber. For example, the CZ75 .40 cal 10 round mag, readily available in California, will hold 13-14 rounds of 9mm, and will work unmodified in a 9mm CZ75.

This situation isn't technically covered by the word of the law, since you're not manufacturing a large-capacity magazine in the standard sense, though it's considered risky by some.

In this case, I've got a Winchester 1300 Defender 12 gauge with an 8 round tube (tubular mags are exempted for .22s and lever action rifles only). The 1300 is rumored to work with Aguila Mini-shells, and I was going to try some for the low recoil, as my son likes shotguns, but not recoil.

The problem is that you can load 12 of these rounds into the magazine. I'm assuming that keeping the load to 10 rounds or less would avoid any potential problems, but I'm curious about what others think about this scenario.

dwtt
06-10-2005, 4:52 PM
Originally posted by maxicon:
This has been discussed before, but I've got a new variation on it.

The standard scenario is using a 10 round mag that will accept more than 10 rounds of another caliber and work in a pistol of the other caliber. For example, the CZ75 .40 cal 10 round mag, readily available in California, will hold 13-14 rounds of 9mm, and will work unmodified in a 9mm CZ75.

This situation isn't technically covered by the word of the law, since you're not manufacturing a large-capacity magazine in the standard sense, though it's considered risky by some.

In this case, I've got a Winchester 1300 Defender 12 gauge with an 8 round tube (tubular mags are exempted for .22s and lever action rifles only). The 1300 is rumored to work with Aguila Mini-shells, and I was going to try some for the low recoil, as my son likes shotguns, but not recoil.

The problem is that you can load 12 of these rounds into the magazine. I'm assuming that keeping the load to 10 rounds or less would avoid any potential problems, but I'm curious about what others think about this scenario.

Go ahead and use the aguila mini shells. The shotgun doesn't have a detattachable magazine and the tube was designed to hold 8 shells. If you manage to get more than 10 in there, the gun isn't an assault weapon since it wasn't designed to hold more than 8.

icormba
06-10-2005, 4:57 PM
I must have screw'ed up mags or screw'ed up guns... because I tried this with both my glock 23 & CZ75 .40 cal. mags in my glock 9mm & CZ75 9mm and they don't work. The mags won't hold 2 rounds of 9mm let alone over 10 rds. not that this has anything to do with shotguns.

bwiese
06-10-2005, 5:19 PM
There was some BATF guidance/interpretation back during the Fed AW Ban days (Sep 1994 - Sep 2004).

Basically, as I recall, if a lo-cap mag could become a hicap in another caliber, it wouldn't be regarded as legal (you were kinda constructing a hicap mag, in essence, after the ban).

The DOJ+courts could use another agency's (in this case, BATFs) rulemaking as example guidance - even if those laws were no longer in force (due to Fed AW Ban sunset).

You're kinda 'manufacturing' a hicap by loading to 12 rounds. On the other hand, if you had the gun before 1/1/00, its hidden 'hicap' capability was legal under CA law but not under Fed law.

So it's really really really grey http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I don't think anyone in gov's thought anything about this esp since this isn't semiauto.

In 12020...(25) we have:
(2 5) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.


So there's a lever-action exemption to hicaps, but apparently not a pump-action one.

Ithaca 97s anyone? :-)

Bill W
San Jose

railroader
06-10-2005, 5:32 PM
I have a copy of a letter from the BATF that states, and this was during the national ban that putting more than 10 9mm rounds in a 40 cal mag is legal as long as you didn't alter the mag so it wouldn't function in the original weapon. I got the letter off of the HS2000(XD forum). As for the DOJ interpertation I'm not sure if they use the federal guidelines. Mark

bwiese
06-10-2005, 7:43 PM
Railroader...

Hmm, that's different than what I'd seen? heard? some time ago. Maybe they revised opinion... it's moot federally but could be used as example guidance in a court (and even against DOJ by a prosecuting DA whose interpretation differs)...

Railroader, could you point me/us to that link, or scan the document and post it?? Appreciated...

Bill W
San Jose

railroader
06-10-2005, 10:03 PM
Bweise, I have the letter right in front of me but my scanner is down. The copy on the HS2000 forum is gone too. Basicly the letter says that preban hi-cap mags can be converted to work in another gun as long as the mags work in the original gun. And it also says 9mm ammo in unaltered 40 cal mags is ok too. The letter is dated July 31 2002 and is signed by Curtis H.A. Bartlett Cheif, Firearms Technology Branch. It also has a BATF letterhead. Mark

maxicon
06-10-2005, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by icormba:
I must have screw'ed up mags or screw'ed up guns... because I tried this with both my glock 23 & CZ75 .40 cal. mags in my glock 9mm & CZ75 9mm and they don't work. The mags won't hold 2 rounds of 9mm let alone over 10 rds.

If you go to http://www.natchezss.com and search on ZMMAG10, you'll find a ProMag for CZ75 .40 cal that will work with 9mm. Generally, ProMag bites (though they're only $13), but these have worked every time I've tried them. I only load more than 10 rounds when I'm shooting out of state, of course.

railroader
06-11-2005, 6:21 AM
Maxicon is right on the cz promags. I shoot matches with guys who use the 40 mags in their 9's and they work fine. Mark

bwiese
06-12-2005, 11:36 PM
Mark...

railroader wrote:
Basicly the letter says that preban hi-cap mags can be converted to work in another gun as long as the mags work in the original gun. And it also says 9mm ammo in unaltered 40 cal mags is ok too.

Well that's all well & good, but fairly irrrelevant to this situation discussed. Your ATF letter was discussing magazines that were ALREADY legal hicaps for at least one application (that is, firearm + caliber).

We are discussing here something different than what you're talking about: an existing magazine that probably has not ever been considered a hicap due to at least state law, and (depending on when gun was built - btwn 9/94 and 9/2004) may not have been created as a Federal hicap (though these Fed AWB laws sunset 9/04). It just accidentally holds over 10rds due to freaky ammo.

Again, during the Fed AWB 9/94-9/04 lifespan, I believe ATF said it was illegal for a locap mag to be used as a hicap by misapplying it for a different caliber. (This may however only have applied to post-9/94 locap mags.)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

railroader
06-13-2005, 6:17 AM
bweise, the 40 cal mags refered to in the letter are "postban" 10 rounders, not hicaps that are ok to load more than 10 rounds of 9mm in. In the other part of the letter they were talking about a hicap in a totally different gun such as {an example} smith & wesson mod 59 mag(9mm 15 rounds) in a springfield XD. The s&w mag will work in the xd if you cut another mag catch and it will still work in the original handgun. Mark