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pullnshoot25
06-04-2009, 10:38 AM
Dear Captain Rose,

My name is N8 and I am a current student here at UCSD. As an active student interested in civil liberties with a focus on firearms, I am looking into starting a Gun Owners Club here at UCSD and in all efforts to remain legal, I am sending you this letter to clarify UCSD policy.

In order to gain a wider audience and pique interest in my club, I feel it would be beneficial to utilize some sort of prop, particularly a "firearm". However, you and I both know that PC 626.9 prevents the lawful transport firearms defined under section PC 12001 inside of a college campus, sans a PC 12050 or sublisted PC 12031 exemption.

As such, this leaves me with arms that are considered "antique" firearms on both a federal and state level, namely antique or replica muzzle loading firearms as defined in this section of 12001.

(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of
subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section
12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that
is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18
of the United States Code.

In addition, the UCSD definition of "firearm" seems to be undefined, which seems to mean that the definition falls directly back upon the definition in PC 12001, thereby exempting such arms from such regulation. However, this determination comes from what resources I have been given by UCSD, namely here, as well as here .

In addition to the above, as long as this arm is not brandished in a rude or aggressive manner, a PC 417 offense cannot be triggered. As long as it is unloaded, a PC 12031 or PC 626.9 violation can't occur. I believe (not entirely certain) that possessing black powder on campus grounds might be a violation of 626.9 but that will require some further reading which I have no time to undertake at the moment.

If any of the above would definitively be in violation of UCSD policy or the California Penal Code, I would like to request that I be granted the the applicable policy code and Penal Code citations for independent inspection. If the request above is not found to be in violation of UCSD policy or the California Penal Code, then I assume it will be business as usual and there will not be any issues if and when my club is formed.

I am looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,

N8

--------

Response from Captain Rose

----

Hi Nathan,



Thanks for your email.



626.9 PC is controlling as far as firearms on campus. It appears there is no exemption for muzzle loaders in fact muzzle loaders are specifically mentioned in subsection (j).



I have attached our analysis for your review. Should you have any questions, please let me know.



Dave Rose

Captain

12001(b) defines a firearm as any device designed to be used as a weapon from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

626.9(e)(2) states that a firearm has the same meaning as that term is given in 12001 (see above).

626.9(h) states that you cannot bring or possess a loaded firearm on a University campus.

626.9(i) states that you cannot bring or posses a firearm on a University campus. (Note loaded has been removed).

626.9(j) defines what a loaded firearm is and includes muzzle-loader firearms.

Section 12001(e) regarding antique firearms only applies to 12070 (Unlicensed sale, legal transfer of firearms), 12071 (Application for license to sell firearm) and 12072 (Restrictions on transfer of firearms). There is nothing in this section that applies to 626.9. Therefore muzzle loading firearms would still be illegal on campus.
--------------------------


I can immediately see that 626.9(j) is bullcrap because it just defines what loaded is, not if it is exempt or not.

Is this analysis legitimate or is UCSD trying to blow smoke?

Let's hear some opinions!

Theseus
06-04-2009, 10:46 AM
Does it matter? The school can give you exemption for the possession.

If they refuse to give you the permission then call them on it.

professorhard
06-04-2009, 10:51 AM
^--- agreed

GaryV
06-04-2009, 11:23 AM
If you read the section you yourself copied, you can see that the captain's interpretation is correct:

(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of
subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section
12072...

This paragraph (e) of 12001 only applies the sections to which it refers.

pullnshoot25
06-04-2009, 12:29 PM
If you read the section you yourself copied, you can see that the captain's interpretation is correct:

(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of
subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section
12072...

This paragraph (e) of 12001 only applies the sections to which it refers.

I figured that but I figured it would be better to ask anyways.

How do re-enactors get permission for K-12 demonstrations?

demnogis
06-04-2009, 12:42 PM
Brass pass... I've only ever seen LEOs give demonstrations of firearms at K-12 schools.

Casual Observer
06-04-2009, 1:32 PM
I figured that but I figured it would be better to ask anyways.

How do re-enactors get permission for K-12 demonstrations?

If it's a private school, they just need permission from the school administration.

yossarian
06-04-2009, 1:33 PM
Good luck; 10 more days until I'm out of this yellow fever infected liberal mess.

The only way I think it may even be possible is with campus police chaperon through SOLO once you have the group officially formed.

sdyeti
06-04-2009, 1:40 PM
You should make a rebuttal to Rachel Bruno's letter in UCSD's sixth college newsletter "Sixth Sense". Good way to start your group. :cool2:

pullnshoot25
06-04-2009, 1:51 PM
You should make a rebuttal to Rachel Bruno's letter in UCSD's sixth college newsletter "Sixth Sense". Good way to start your group. :cool2:

I wouldn't know where to begin, honestly.

Anyone have a good idea?

aplinker
06-04-2009, 6:00 PM
If you read the section you yourself copied, you can see that the captain's interpretation is correct:

(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of
subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section
12072...

This paragraph (e) of 12001 only applies the sections to which it refers.

I don't believe that's correct.

(i) says it's illegal to possess a firearm
(j) defines a loaded firearm

Until it's loaded a muzzleloader is not a firearm, as per 12001.

pullnshoot25
06-04-2009, 6:08 PM
I don't believe that's correct.

(i) says it's illegal to possess a firearm
(j) defines a loaded firearm

Until it's loaded a muzzleloader is not a firearm, as per 12001.

That's what I was thinking...

But how to apply it to 626.9?

Theseus
06-04-2009, 6:31 PM
626.9(e)(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001.


This means that if it is not a firearm as defined in 12001 then it is not a firearm in 626.9 since the definitions are linked.

GuyW
06-04-2009, 6:53 PM
I wouldn't know where to begin, honestly.

Anyone have a good idea?

"Jane, you ignorant slut...."


http://video.aol.com/video-detail/saturday-night-live-saturday-night-live-point-counterpoint-lee-marvin-and-michelle-triola/4120730573
.

aplinker
06-04-2009, 7:19 PM
626.9(e)(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001.


This means that if it is not a firearm as defined in 12001 then it is not a firearm in 626.9 since the definitions are linked.

correct... I thought this was already in your listing?

GaryV
06-04-2009, 7:28 PM
I don't believe that's correct.

(i) says it's illegal to possess a firearm
(j) defines a loaded firearm

Until it's loaded a muzzleloader is not a firearm, as per 12001.

The definition of a firearm is in 12001(b), not 626.9(j).

12001(b) defines a firearm as any device designed to be used as a weapon from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

It says nothing about being loaded.

Theseus
06-04-2009, 7:30 PM
Maybe he didn't read it. He is a smart guy. . . and I heard he has a new found internet love interest...

donger
06-04-2009, 7:33 PM
Off topic, but I believe a UCSD firearms club exists but is in hibernation. IIRC Ohsmiley started the club while attending school.

aplinker
06-04-2009, 7:40 PM
The definition of a firearm is in 12001(b), not 626.9(j).

12001(b) defines a firearm as any device designed to be used as a weapon from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

It says nothing about being loaded.

Sorry, I forgot the BP=antique exemption in 12001 was ONLY for purchase and nothing else. Thanks. :)

pullnshoot25
06-06-2009, 8:41 AM
Off topic, but I believe a UCSD firearms club exists but is in hibernation. IIRC Ohsmiley started the club while attending school.

It is primarily a shooting club and I haven't seen hide nor hair of it (well, it is in hiding, eh?). I want to get a club together to get all the not-so-active or closet gun owners out of the shadows. Here is what I just sent the captain...

It appears that upon further analysis that you are correct. It looks like I will just have to get a resin cast non-functional AR lower with a real AR-15 upper or just bring the AR-15 upper with a printout of the lower or something of that general nature.

Thanks for your time, Captain Rose.

I have multiple internet love interests, Theseus... many women want but few will have! Chyeaaaah, rrright!

pullnshoot25
06-06-2009, 8:42 AM
Sorry, I forgot the BP=antique exemption in 12001 was ONLY for purchase and nothing else. Thanks. :)

I know, I thought I had 626.9 by the nuts on that one. How rad would it be to walk onto campus with a 6' smoke pole? HAH!

motorhead
06-06-2009, 9:13 AM
here's a different approach. say you found a bp gun with real historical provenance, say a famous owner or used in a famous battle. you would have to be able to document. history IS still part of the educational process, right?

N6ATF
06-06-2009, 9:15 AM
here's a different approach. say you found a bp gun with real historical provenance, say a famous owner or used in a famous battle. you would have to be able to document. history IS still part of the educational process, right?

Yep, erasing history.